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(LA Times)   California: We'll give you a nickel deposit for every can you return for recycling. Nevada and Arizona: Hey, look, California's giving out free nickels   (latimes.com) divider line 143
    More: Asinine, California, recycling  
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20398 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Oct 2012 at 6:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-07 03:39:32 PM  
Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.
 
2012-10-07 03:52:35 PM  
Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.
 
2012-10-07 04:53:13 PM  
xeround.com
 
2012-10-07 05:11:16 PM  
This maybe having an impact, but it is a drop in the bucket of things that are "draining California cash"
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-07 05:29:14 PM  
One part of the alleged scheme, he said, was pretending that cans it had picked up from commercial and residential customers had actually been turned in to its recycling center; the state often provides bigger reimbursements when materials are acquired that way.

Here we have scavengers picking through municipal recycling bins to find redeemable cans and bottles. Technically that might be theft; it is in some jurisdictions. The effort of returning cans is worth more than 5 cents to anybody with a good job, so they go into the trash.
 
2012-10-07 05:52:39 PM  
Ultimately, the owner of Ace Recycling, Michael Barshak, and several others pleaded guilty to grand theft and unlawful recycling.

What is this I don't even.
 
2012-10-07 06:09:38 PM  
State officials say recycling centers in California are required to take reasonable precautions: They are not allowed, for instance, to buy more than 500 pounds of aluminum or 2,500 pounds of glass from any one person in any given day

Seems like you could cut the fraud back significantly by simply reducing that to 50 lbs/day. Even Drew doesn't generate 50 lbs of empty Heineken cans in a week.
 
2012-10-07 06:18:56 PM  
Pfft. Bring 'em to Michigan.


images.mentalfloss.com
 
2012-10-07 06:19:48 PM  

dahmers love zombie: Ultimately, the owner of Ace Recycling, Michael Barshak, and several others pleaded guilty to grand theft and unlawful recycling.

What is this I don't even.


static2.businessinsider.com
 
2012-10-07 06:21:43 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.


Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

insidescoopsf.sfgate.com

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.
 
2012-10-07 06:21:56 PM  
I used to play that scam when I lived in Michigan many years ago. Back then, it was a dime per can or bottle. I'd gather them up when I visited family in Chicago, and net a few buck bringing them back home. But then the grocery store went to automatic machines, and would reject containers with the wrong bar code, or brands they didn't sell.

The state of Michigan still made millions off unclaimed deposits, but I couldn't return Old Style cans in Ann Arbor.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:01 PM  
not to mention the costs of the recycling fraud unit...
 
2012-10-07 06:25:30 PM  
I think the real problem is that California is only pocketing $1mil from the previous transactions and feels they'd be getting more if out of state cans weren't brought in.

Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about. Somehow it is OK for Mitt Romney to find loopholes to make money on taxes but not cool for someone across the border in Nevada.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:59 PM  

Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.


That means they have stealth bombers. I don't even have cannons yet!
 
2012-10-07 06:26:57 PM  
Employees were so lazy at the Lincoln City, OR Safeway that all you would have to do is throw your bag of empty cans in a bin in the back room and tell them how much you had. I always had 15.00 more than I thought I had, imagine that!
 
2012-10-07 06:28:28 PM  
If recycling means they give me nickleback then me might as well throw can away.
 
2012-10-07 06:29:08 PM  

bingo the psych-o: Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.

That means they have stealth bombers. I don't even have cannons yet!


Quick, build the recycling center! just like...California....oh wait....huh.....hmmm.
 
2012-10-07 06:30:43 PM  
Wasn't there a story a few months ago about how this fund had about a $12M surplus from deposits that were collected but never redeemed through the recycling program?
 
2012-10-07 06:31:51 PM  

Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.


That they paid vastly more than market price for.
 
2012-10-07 06:32:07 PM  
lh5.ggpht.com
California or bust.
 
2012-10-07 06:33:21 PM  

fusillade762: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

[insidescoopsf.sfgate.com image 600x448]

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.


Actually those are the best places to go, as you get 100% of your deposit. Problem is they're broken or permanently camped by homeless. The recycling centers weigh the bag and give you based on weight, which isn't accurate for obvious reasons, plus they take a cut.
 
2012-10-07 06:33:51 PM  
Nebraska has no deposit on cans/bottles. Iowa does. The cans you buy in NE don't have the deposit label on them either.

When I used to buy my soda at the base, it always has a label with the deposit info on it. You could buy (save) cans from the base in Nebraska and return them to Iowa and earn money, not a lot, but money.

Further more, they had machines that simply counted cans that were inserted. It didn't care whether or not there was any info about deposits on the cans themselves.

It seems like a system designed to fail.
 
2012-10-07 06:33:54 PM  

meanmutton: Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.

That they paid vastly more than market price for.


It doesn't matter, it is taxpayer money.
 
2012-10-07 06:36:33 PM  

APE992: Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about.


It's funny that you think a landfill is a black hole, out of which nothing will ever come.

Give it 20 or so years and the cities will be making money off of companies mining landfills for metal, plastic, and rare earth elements.
 
2012-10-07 06:36:54 PM  
www.thestockmasters.com

. . . seen leaving California
 
pla
2012-10-07 06:37:30 PM  
FTA: "Just over 8.5 billion recyclable cans were sold in California last year. The number redeemed for a nickel under California's recycling law: 8.3 billion."

Waitasec here - Now, I realize they want to encourage recycling in California. But they get a farking nickle for every one of those cans. So the problem here has nothing to do with "fraud", so much as "we hoped, like every scammy rebate offer ever, to actually make money off morons not getting their money back".

Can you hear the violins?



/ Yes, the next paragraph talks about a 104% rate on plastic, admittedly a problem, but up to 100%, you don't get to biatch, revenue-whores. Recycling affects the whole world, not just your corner of it.
 
2012-10-07 06:39:17 PM  
So that's what the TSA does with all those dangerous drinks.
 
2012-10-07 06:40:45 PM  

meanmutton: APE992: Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about.

It's funny that you think a landfill is a black hole, out of which nothing will ever come.

Give it 20 or so years and the cities will be making money off of companies mining landfills for metal, plastic, and rare earth elements.


That sounds like a shiatty job. (and I mean that literally - think about all the disposable diapers they'll be sorting through. Sure, metal detectors will help, but if you're looking for plastics?)
 
2012-10-07 06:43:03 PM  
I lived in Michigan in 1979 and they had a law like this. They were smart enough that they also passed a law requiring that all cans sold in Michigan had that fact prominently displayed on the can. Poor California, maybe you should smarten up. Then again, you DID elect ARNOLD to be your governator.
 
2012-10-07 06:43:19 PM  
What's the problem?

Wasn't the goal to encourage recycling to save the environment? Isn't that what's happening?
 
2012-10-07 06:44:25 PM  

Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.


TFA: recyclers inside the state are claiming redemptions [...] for containers that never existed.

So California doesn't get the aluminum it pays for.
 
2012-10-07 06:44:37 PM  

Lattices aren't Distributive: meanmutton: APE992: Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about.

It's funny that you think a landfill is a black hole, out of which nothing will ever come.

Give it 20 or so years and the cities will be making money off of companies mining landfills for metal, plastic, and rare earth elements.

That sounds like a shiatty job. (and I mean that literally - think about all the disposable diapers they'll be sorting through. Sure, metal detectors will help, but if you're looking for plastics?)


Garbage incinerators for power production are getting pretty good. Your best bet would be to sort the metal out and burn the rest.

The funny part is that you won't be able to get to a lot of the landfill resources because they have been reclaimed as parks and golf courses.
 
2012-10-07 06:45:31 PM  
When I was a kid in Michigan I would bring my wagon to the park and collect bottles/cans on Sunday nights. 10 to 15$ a week is pretty good for an 8yr old. When I first moved to NC it was shocking to see people just throw out bottles. All I could think about was how much they'd be worth if the bottles were returned.

/never got an allowance, worked for ever dime I got.
 
2012-10-07 06:45:45 PM  
To solve the problem of out of state people inflating numbers, just adjust the payout on cans to reflect market value. If people still want to drive across the boarder and get money, yay for entrepreneurship. To solve the problem of actual fraud (inflating numbers or re-selling the same load), get some investigators in the statehouse. Ta-da. If you want to be eco-friendly, just say that any income gained by recycling cans and bottles isn't subject to state taxation.

The only real issue I can see in the article is California is paying more than market value for aluminum.
 
2012-10-07 06:47:17 PM  
Good. The government's been scamming the people for over 100 years. Scam it back if you can.
 
2012-10-07 06:48:04 PM  
It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.
 
2012-10-07 06:51:49 PM  
When I was 12 there was an unattended recycling machine in the local supermarket's parking lot. It was huge, a 10 by 20 cage that looked like it would get loaded onto a flatbed truck. You fed the empties through a hole in a machine at the front. It weighed them, kicked the empties into the bin and then spat out change.

So it took me about two visits of turning in an afternoon's collection of aluminum to realize that the labor/reward ratios was way too low. That's when I started filling the cans with water and leaving them out to freeze over night before feeding them to the machine. That produced a much higher rate of return and except for the coldest parts of winter all the evidence would melt during the day. I made sure I never did it often enough to raise suspicions, maybe once or twice a month and I never told anyone about the scam or else every kid in the neighborhood would have tried to cash in and ruin it.

And that is the entirety of my criminal enterprises.

/CSB, I know.
 
2012-10-07 06:52:44 PM  
This doesn't really seem like a problem, if your goal is to encourage recycling. The redemption rate is right around 100%, which means the program is self-funding, other than a subsidy to actually run the recycling centers. Fraud is bad, and reasonable measures to stop it are probably a good idea, but it's not like the program is bleeding money.

What they're actually mad about is the fact that they budgeted the program as revenue stream, not a recycling incentive, under the assumption that not everyone would bother to redeem their bottles. Somehow I have trouble feeling bad that their program is only meeting its stated goal and isn't working as a hidden tax.
 
2012-10-07 06:52:56 PM  
i.chzbgr.com
same thing
/hot
 
2012-10-07 06:55:39 PM  

Salmon: It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.


Salmon, that's farking brilliant.

But seriously, as a resident in the Australian state with a great and effective recycling program (which is still largely rejected by other Australian states despite its popularity among my local population), surely California is a significantly major economy that it could insist on labelling laws which states 'this product was sold in California and its container is good for recycling in California or a state with equivalent laws' and that would be the end of the story. I'm pretty sure the state of Califonia's population is roughly the same as that of my entire continent.
 
2012-10-07 06:56:09 PM  
profplump: This doesn't really seem like a problem, if your goal is to encourage recycling. The redemption rate is right around 100%, which means the program is self-funding, other than a subsidy to actually run the recycling centers. Fraud is bad, and reasonable measures to stop it are probably a good idea, but it's not like the program is bleeding money.

What they're actually mad about is the fact that they budgeted the program as revenue stream, not a recycling incentive, under the assumption that not everyone would bother to redeem their bottles. Somehow I have trouble feeling bad that their program is only meeting its stated goal and isn't working as a hidden tax.


(In best scruffy the janitor voice) Second
 
2012-10-07 06:56:32 PM  
The aluminum might be worth a nickel, and it saves in road cleanup costs. Oregon has been doing this for decades.
 
2012-10-07 06:59:19 PM  
anything to make a buck.
 
2012-10-07 06:59:31 PM  

Aussie_As: Salmon: It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.

Salmon, that's farking brilliant.

But seriously, as a resident in the Australian state with a great and effective recycling program (which is still largely rejected by other Australian states despite its popularity among my local population), surely California is a significantly major economy that it could insist on labelling laws which states 'this product was sold in California and its container is good for recycling in California or a state with equivalent laws' and that would be the end of the story. I'm pretty sure the state of Califonia's population is roughly the same as that of my entire continent.


Have just actually bothered to research this and it turns out California's population is WAY bigger than Australia's. There's no excuse for administrative failures with this scheme.
 
2012-10-07 07:00:41 PM  
Not surprised something like this happens. too much chance for easy money if you live near the border of a state in which you can get a fixed amount of money for item item you recycle with seeming no fool proof way to ensure it was sold with in the state.
 
2012-10-07 07:01:05 PM  
Did anyone else hear the voice of Slim Pickens say in their head; " We're gonna need a shiat load of nickles."?
 
2012-10-07 07:01:16 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Pfft. Bring 'em to Michigan.


[images.mentalfloss.com image 500x368]


This. Have a snowbird in the family. They would literally keep huge trash bags of crushed cans they accumulated while at their winter home, and bring them back to Michigan to cash in. Used to cover the cost of gas of the trip before gas prices went insane.
 
2012-10-07 07:01:17 PM  

dameron: When I was 12 there was an unattended recycling machine in the local supermarket's parking lot. It was huge, a 10 by 20 cage that looked like it would get loaded onto a flatbed truck. You fed the empties through a hole in a machine at the front. It weighed them, kicked the empties into the bin and then spat out change.

So it took me about two visits of turning in an afternoon's collection of aluminum to realize that the labor/reward ratios was way too low. That's when I started filling the cans with water and leaving them out to freeze over night before feeding them to the machine. That produced a much higher rate of return and except for the coldest parts of winter all the evidence would melt during the day. I made sure I never did it often enough to raise suspicions, maybe once or twice a month and I never told anyone about the scam or else every kid in the neighborhood would have tried to cash in and ruin it.

And that is the entirety of my criminal enterprises.

/CSB, I know.


CSB, yes, except those machines around my neck of the woods actually crushed or shredded the cans, and thin aluminum is much easier to crush/shred than solid ice, so the machine would likely jam.

Thinking about it, it would probably be better shred the cans if the processing at the recycling was automated, since enterprising thieves might otherwise break into the storage bin and feed the crushed cans back through. Shredded can would make it to hazardous to attempt.
 
2012-10-07 07:01:31 PM  
Does anyone know...

On many carbonated beverage containers, the can/bottle will list the states where the 5-cent deposit is available. They often have some states whose abbreviation will be larger than the others.

For example, it might say IA-MA-ME-OR-VT-NY-CT 5¢.

Why are Iowa, Mass, New York, and Conn listed larger than the others? (this isn't the only case...sometimes different states are listed larger...it is just the can I have in front of me now)
 
2012-10-07 07:03:56 PM  

DrPainMD: Good. The government's been scamming the people for over 100 years. Scam it back if you can.


Yeah, the government is a separate evil entity. Make sure to steal from them as much as possible to resolve whatever imaginary perceived slight you've felt from them, all those taxpayers had too much money to blow anyway.
 
2012-10-07 07:10:41 PM  
My very first job was in the bottle room of Fred Meyer (@1987 or so). Customers would bring in carts full of black garbage bags. We had to count them and then sort them by company. The worst were always the folks just back from a camping trip. The containers would be covered with dirt and crawling with earwigs (for beer) or ants (for soda). I'd come home from work and clean my arms with a cotton pad and Sea Breeze (do they even make that anymore?). It would take two or three passes on each arm before the pads weren't COMPLETELY black from grime.

/csb
 
2012-10-07 07:13:44 PM  
I'm from a bit south of the NY/PA border and one of my high school friends had a typical college party house after we graduated. He'd save up all of the empties throughout the year that were purchased in PA and drive over the border to collect the deposit. I made the mistake of joining him on one of those trips and learned what 9 months worth of beer cans smell like if you don't rinse them.
 
2012-10-07 07:18:19 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: This maybe having an impact, but it is a drop in the bucket of things that are "draining California cash"


Was about to say... yeah, illegal recycling is why CA has problems.

And unemployment is down, too. Tell me another one.
 
2012-10-07 07:25:15 PM  

fusillade762: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

[insidescoopsf.sfgate.com image 600x448]

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.


And there's also a limit to how many cans/bottles you can redeem too.

From the Oregon Bottle Bill pdf:

How many containers can I redeem each day?

Retailers of 5,000 square feet or more can limit the amount of containers a consumer can redeem
to a maximum of 144 containers per person per day.
Retailers under 5,000 square feet can limit the number of containers to a maximum of 50 per
person per day.
 
2012-10-07 07:26:09 PM  
Thought of it first

images2.wikia.nocookie.net

/ hot
 
2012-10-07 07:28:09 PM  
brainsyndicate.files.wordpress.com
R.I.P FINALLY!
 
2012-10-07 07:29:54 PM  
I like CRV. It means I can put a recyclable can or bottle anywhere -- from the top of Mount Everest to the bottom of the Mariana Trench -- and some hobo will manage to find it and recycle it for me.
 
2012-10-07 07:32:36 PM  
Deposits used to be built in the prices of soda sold in glass bottles. It wasn't a law here but it was always that way for as long I could remember. It was only when 'no deposit/return' bottles where introduced some states started making laws about bottle returns.

You'd take the empties back to the supermarket and they'd give a few cents for the bottle (I think it was 25 cent for case)..The distributor would pick them up and return to the bottling plant where they where cleaned, refilled and capped. It wasn't a law it just something you did..like saving you empty glass milk bottles for pickup.
 
2012-10-07 07:33:09 PM  

Aussie_As: Salmon: It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.

Salmon, that's farking brilliant.

But seriously, as a resident in the Australian state with a great and effective recycling program (which is still largely rejected by other Australian states despite its popularity among my local population), surely California is a significantly major economy that it could insist on labeling laws which states 'this product was sold in California and its container is good for recycling in California or a state with equivalent laws' and that would be the end of the story. I'm pretty sure the state of Califonia's population is roughly the same as that of my entire continent.


The cost of putting a sticker on it to say it was sold in South Australia drives up the prices unless it is something major. That is why many things are just not sold there. There is also the problem that many truck drivers from Melbourne tend to have friends who collect lots of cans. I know one guy who ends up with a garage full nearly ever other month before they get trucked to Adelaide.

The contract between the local council and the recycler is void if the state or federal government starts a container deposit law. Without the cans and bottles, it is simply not worth it to recycle. Which is why SA has the lowest rate of recycling in the country (except for Victorian cans and bottles they count as their own)
 
2012-10-07 07:35:12 PM  

bwilson27: Employees were so lazy at the Lincoln City, OR Safeway that all you would have to do is throw your bag of empty cans in a bin in the back room and tell them how much you had. I always had 15.00 more than I thought I had, imagine that!


I've shopped there!!

/and yes... very lazy.
 
2012-10-07 07:41:37 PM  

DON.MAC: Aussie_As: Salmon: It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.

Salmon, that's farking brilliant.

But seriously, as a resident in the Australian state with a great and effective recycling program (which is still largely rejected by other Australian states despite its popularity among my local population), surely California is a significantly major economy that it could insist on labeling laws which states 'this product was sold in California and its container is good for recycling in California or a state with equivalent laws' and that would be the end of the story. I'm pretty sure the state of Califonia's population is roughly the same as that of my entire continent.

The cost of putting a sticker on it to say it was sold in South Australia drives up the prices unless it is something major. That is why many things are just not sold there. There is also the problem that many truck drivers from Melbourne tend to have friends who collect lots of cans. I know one guy who ends up with a garage full nearly ever other month before they get trucked to Adelaide.

The contract between the local council and the recycler is void if the state or federal government starts a container deposit law. Without the cans and bottles, it is simply not worth it to recycle. Which is why SA has the lowest rate of recycling in the country (except for Victorian cans and bottles they count as their own)


Whoa, care to cite your claim about SA's recycling rate? It's second only to the ACT. And here's a cite:
Link

SA may not be as great as its residents claim but talking BS about its recycling scheme just makes us mad!!
 
2012-10-07 07:41:39 PM  

bwilson27: Employees were so lazy at the Lincoln City, OR Safeway that all you would have to do is throw your bag of empty cans in a bin in the back room and tell them how much you had. I always had 15.00 more than I thought I had, imagine that!


Counting cans is likely to be more expensive than trusting their customers.
 
2012-10-07 07:43:01 PM  
Prime suspect:

www.certsoft.com

/too obscure?
 
2012-10-07 07:54:59 PM  

Mad Scientist: I used to play that scam when I lived in Michigan many years ago. Back then, it was a dime per can or bottle. I'd gather them up when I visited family in Chicago, and net a few buck bringing them back home. But then the grocery store went to automatic machines, and would reject containers with the wrong bar code, or brands they didn't sell.

The state of Michigan still made millions off unclaimed deposits, but I couldn't return Old Style cans in Ann Arbor.


I've never seen Old Style sold here, and I'm 40.

/used to rock a trunk full off cans back myself when I came home before the machines
 
2012-10-07 07:56:37 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.


So I have to return the bottles the same day I buy them?
 
2012-10-07 08:06:51 PM  
Just over 8.5 billion recyclable cans were sold in California last year. The number redeemed for a nickel under California's recycling law: 8.3 billion.

That's a return rate of nearly 100%.


1 reporter was too lazy to type some numbers into the calculator program on their computer.

That's a dumbass rate of nearly 100%.

//97.64%
 
2012-10-07 08:08:10 PM  
That tells me that there's a demand for this in Nevada and Arizona. Those states should get on it.
 
2012-10-07 08:13:12 PM  

moothemagiccow: Just over 8.5 billion recyclable cans were sold in California last year. The number redeemed for a nickel under California's recycling law: 8.3 billion.

That's a return rate of nearly 100%.

1 reporter was too lazy to mathphobic to know he could just type some numbers into the calculator program on their computer.

That's a dumbass rate of nearly 100%.

//97.64%


FTFY

And I've taught "future journalists" how to do this, and done it it an empowering (don't let them(tm) screw you over by assuming you won't check their numbers) way for exactly this reason.
/Of course, they all graduated in the last 10 years, so none of them actually have journalism jobs....
 
2012-10-07 08:14:31 PM  
FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.
 
2012-10-07 08:18:49 PM  

MrEricSir: bwilson27: Employees were so lazy at the Lincoln City, OR Safeway that all you would have to do is throw your bag of empty cans in a bin in the back room and tell them how much you had. I always had 15.00 more than I thought I had, imagine that!

Counting cans is likely to be more expensive than trusting their customers.


Dunno. When I counted cans I got pretty damned fast at it.
 
2012-10-07 08:19:04 PM  

hackhix: [xeround.com image 399x305]


Just maki!ng sure, good onya
 
2012-10-07 08:21:21 PM  

RussianPooper: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

So I have to return the bottles the same day I buy them?


No. In fact you don't even have to redeem them at the store you bought them from anymore, thanks to a tweak in the Bottle Bill. Used to be that if you bought store brand soft drinks you also had to redeem them at one of their stores (Safeway brand at a Safeway store, Fred Meyer brand at a Fred Meyer store, etc.). Nowadays you can redeem any brand at any store that has a bottle/can return area, but the container must have the OR 5¢ on its label.
 
2012-10-07 08:21:25 PM  

Lattices aren't Distributive: moothemagiccow: Just over 8.5 billion recyclable cans were sold in California last year. The number redeemed for a nickel under California's recycling law: 8.3 billion.

That's a return rate of nearly 100%.

1 reporter was too lazy to mathphobic to know he could just type some numbers into the calculator program on their computer.

That's a dumbass rate of nearly 100%.

//97.64%

FTFY

And I've taught "future journalists" how to do this, and done it it an empowering (don't let them(tm) screw you over by assuming you won't check their numbers) way for exactly this reason.
/Of course, they all graduated in the last 10 years, so none of them actually have journalism jobs....


As a science grad, the highly predictable failures of journalists to grasp basic maths and science is extremely disappointing.

The worst example I recall reading in recent years was an awesome (now sadly deceased) Australian journo called Matt Price (I won't say he was Australia's answer to Hunter S Thompson but he could write about politics as if it was sport and sport as if it was politics in a manner which prompted the reader to recall HST) bemoaning how politically unsexy the issue of ethanol subsidies was. He suggested it would be a much better issue if ethanol was something the public could relate to in any way. He completely failed to understand that ethanol is the correct name for the alcohol we drink in beer, wine and spirits, and as a member of the national press gallary it is simply impossible to believe he was not frequently pissed.
 
2012-10-07 08:22:04 PM  
If only there was some way to place some kind of mark on a container that indicated that it was bought in a location that collected the deposit. Possibly like a state abbreviation or something. That would show them.
 
2012-10-07 08:22:42 PM  

craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.


Most states in the western half of the country (possibly more - I have little experience with this in the east) have a "port of entry" at the nearest town to the border on the interstate. Commercial vehicles have to stop, pay the taxes, get inspected, check the commercial driver's licence, make sure that the weight complies with state law.
 
2012-10-07 08:24:33 PM  

Aussie_As: Whoa, care to cite your claim about SA's recycling rate? It's second only to the ACT. And here's a cite:
Link


I don't see anything in that cite about trucks from Melbourne full of cans and bottles. This is the same problem that the article talks about is the sand in the head approach to the stats of which both California and South Australia governments are very guilty of. Start looking at the rates for other things like food cans and glossy cardboard and you may find a shocking amount of it is not recycled at all. Do you even have one of the new auto sort plants in the state since there wasn't one last year? The SA government likes to throw money at some recycling efforts but independent recycling investment is much lower in your area due to the fact that there is no money in the cans and bottles which subsidizing all the cool new technology even though more of your councils are now doing the 3 bin thing.
 
2012-10-07 08:25:03 PM  

Lattices aren't Distributive: meanmutton: APE992: Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about.

It's funny that you think a landfill is a black hole, out of which nothing will ever come.

Give it 20 or so years and the cities will be making money off of companies mining landfills for metal, plastic, and rare earth elements.

That sounds like a shiatty job. (and I mean that literally - think about all the disposable diapers they'll be sorting through. Sure, metal detectors will help, but if you're looking for plastics?)


Someone will come up with a machine to do it for them. It would never be profitable if they were sorting it by hand.
 
2012-10-07 08:25:29 PM  

pla: FTA: "Just over 8.5 billion recyclable cans were sold in California last year. The number redeemed for a nickel under California's recycling law: 8.3 billion."

Waitasec here - Now, I realize they want to encourage recycling in California. But they get a farking nickle for every one of those cans. So the problem here has nothing to do with "fraud", so much as "we hoped, like every scammy rebate offer ever, to actually make money off morons not getting their money back".

Can you hear the violins?



/ Yes, the next paragraph talks about a 104% rate on plastic, admittedly a problem, but up to 100%, you don't get to biatch, revenue-whores. Recycling affects the whole world, not just your corner of it.


Mmmm hmmm...

given the numbers... my private school math makes it a 10 million dollar surplus. The State is getting RAPED!
 
2012-10-07 08:27:47 PM  

Aussie_As: Salmon: It's a dime here in Canada but please take our Nickleback.

Salmon, that's farking brilliant.

But seriously, as a resident in the Australian state with a great and effective recycling program (which is still largely rejected by other Australian states despite its popularity among my local population), surely California is a significantly major economy that it could insist on labelling laws which states 'this product was sold in California and its container is good for recycling in California or a state with equivalent laws' and that would be the end of the story. I'm pretty sure the state of Califonia's population is roughly the same as that of my entire continent.


They already do that...

upload.wikimedia.org 

In Michigan, we have machines you have to put your bottles back in. They scan the bottles and if it's an out-of-state bottle, it gets rejected.
 
2012-10-07 08:29:28 PM  

ZAZ: One part of the alleged scheme, he said, was pretending that cans it had picked up from commercial and residential customers had actually been turned in to its recycling center; the state often provides bigger reimbursements when materials are acquired that way.

Here we have scavengers picking through municipal recycling bins to find redeemable cans and bottles. Technically that might be theft; it is in some jurisdictions. The effort of returning cans is worth more than 5 cents to anybody with a good job, so they go into the trash.


Yen cents here. Most people save theirs.
 
2012-10-07 08:31:28 PM  
Note that on bottles/cans CA is explicitly different: cash refund.
 
2012-10-07 08:32:36 PM  

dahmers love zombie: Ultimately, the owner of Ace Recycling, Michael Barshak, and several others pleaded guilty to grand theft and unlawful recycling.

What is this I don't even.


Yeah, if this is even a crime, your recycling scheme was ill-conceived and has failed utterly.
 
2012-10-07 08:37:56 PM  

DON.MAC: Aussie_As: Whoa, care to cite your claim about SA's recycling rate? It's second only to the ACT. And here's a cite:
Link

I don't see anything in that cite about trucks from Melbourne full of cans and bottles. This is the same problem that the article talks about is the sand in the head approach to the stats of which both California and South Australia governments are very guilty of. Start looking at the rates for other things like food cans and glossy cardboard and you may find a shocking amount of it is not recycled at all. Do you even have one of the new auto sort plants in the state since there wasn't one last year? The SA government likes to throw money at some recycling efforts but independent recycling investment is much lower in your area due to the fact that there is no money in the cans and bottles which subsidizing all the cool new technology even though more of your councils are now doing the 3 bin thing.


...and here's another cite which disagrees with you. Do you care to back up a single one of your claims? I'll happily be corrected, but I'd rather it was with hard facts than statements of opinion.
 
2012-10-07 08:38:39 PM  

craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.


They do, actually.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html (pop s)
 
2012-10-07 08:46:18 PM  

Lattices aren't Distributive: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

Most states in the western half of the country (possibly more - I have little experience with this in the east) have a "port of entry" at the nearest town to the border on the interstate. Commercial vehicles have to stop, pay the taxes, get inspected, check the commercial driver's licence, make sure that the weight complies with state law.


I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.
 
2012-10-07 08:49:12 PM  

Lattices aren't Distributive: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

Most states in the western half of the country (possibly more - I have little experience with this in the east) have a "port of entry" at the nearest town to the border on the interstate. Commercial vehicles have to stop, pay the taxes, get inspected, check the commercial driver's licence, make sure that the weight complies with state law.


Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.
 
2012-10-07 08:55:14 PM  
I worked in a beer distributor when I was in high school. I hate returns.
 
2012-10-07 08:58:59 PM  

Glendale: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

They do, actually.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html (pop s)


How the farkin is that legal?
 
2012-10-07 09:00:41 PM  

optikeye: Deposits used to be built in the prices of soda sold in glass bottles. It wasn't a law here but it was always that way for as long I could remember. It was only when 'no deposit/return' bottles where introduced some states started making laws about bottle returns.

You'd take the empties back to the supermarket and they'd give a few cents for the bottle (I think it was 25 cent for case)..The distributor would pick them up and return to the bottling plant where they where cleaned, refilled and capped. It wasn't a law it just something you did..like saving you empty glass milk bottles for pickup.


Yep, the days when reuse was an economic necessity rather than a dirty hippy slogan in a land of conspicuous waste. Sometimes I get the feeling that there's an unspoken competition over how much people can afford to throw out, rather than just afford to buy. Those returned bottles did tend to get chipped up a lot more, though.

Of course, some things really are counter-intuitive now, like those extra-thin plastic bags at grocery stores having a significantly smaller environmental impact than paper bags. Especially now that most are made of biodegradable plastics and sometimes PLA, which is made from corn or sugar waste, like ethanol.
 
2012-10-07 09:06:53 PM  

Glendale: I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.


That's odd, because my experience is this:

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.


They are pressured by the DEA to at least do a look-see inside for drugs, but yeah, they always ask about food. Flying into CA airports from international will ask the same thing, but not from other states, oddly. If you are bringing food, it has to be a one-day's supply; a box of oranges will get seized, as my mom found out coming from Oregon one time. Not sure about cheese, but we spent so much money on our cheese in Holland that we said nothing to get through.
 
2012-10-07 09:08:16 PM  

Aussie_As: ...and here's another cite which disagrees with you. Do you care to back up a single one of your claims? I'll happily be corrected, but I'd rather it was with hard facts than statements of opinion.


Did you read that? 29% of your tonnage of "recycling" is concrete. Other states don't count that do they?

How about the "Cardboard & waxed cardboard, 162,000t , 6%"
There is zero market in Australia for recycled waxed cardboard. That stuff all gets landfilled. And it gets landfilled in Victoria since that is where most of your cardboard gets processed.

What is your wine bottle recycling rate?

An empty truck or container going to SA can take 10 tons of cans or many times more in glass bottles. Are they counted? Why no... or are they?

Your cite shows 57 ktons of glass vs 18 ktons of Aluminium. So some how SA managed to recycle 40% of the aluminiums 44.1 ktons of cans sold in Australia in a given year. See why I don't think the numbers are quite right?

http://www.aluminium-cans.com.au/Facts.html
 
2012-10-07 09:17:51 PM  
Why don't they just act normal, and make it so easy to recycle that most just do it by default, even without getting a nickel. I have two large trash cans. One for trash, one for recycling, plus they give you free inside recycling cans. So even people who don't care, recycle. Because it's just as easy.

Oh, because it was really to generate revenue, not actually encourage recycling.
 
2012-10-07 09:19:26 PM  

meanmutton: Glendale: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

They do, actually.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html (pop s)

How the farkin is that legal?


Same way this is legal: 

farm4.static.flickr.com 

Border Patrol Checkpoint at the San Diego/Orange county line.
 
2012-10-07 09:20:41 PM  

optikeye: Deposits used to be built in the prices of soda sold in glass bottles. It wasn't a law here but it was always that way for as long I could remember. It was only when 'no deposit/return' bottles where introduced some states started making laws about bottle returns.

You'd take the empties back to the supermarket and they'd give a few cents for the bottle (I think it was 25 cent for case)..The distributor would pick them up and return to the bottling plant where they where cleaned, refilled and capped. It wasn't a law it just something you did..like saving you empty glass milk bottles for pickup.


Those bottles were cleaned and then refilled. Modern ones are remelted and remade into new bottles. This is from two major reasons, one is there was a tylenol copycat who was trying to put stuff in cleanable bottles and the liability from chipped bottles is just too high. Add in the extra costs of dealing with heavier bottles so they could deal with years of transport and extra weight, it was just cheaper to remelt them. For what it is worth, modern bottle recycling did start from the bottles rejected or broken in the cleaning and refilling process of the old returnables. Currently most glass production is done using base load power so the energy cost isn't that high. I expect that as the base load problem gets solved, glass bottles will go away.
 
2012-10-07 09:22:16 PM  

meanmutton: APE992: Aluminum isn't ending up in landfills, that is all I care about.

It's funny that you think a landfill is a black hole, out of which nothing will ever come.

Give it 20 or so years and the cities will be making money off of companies mining landfills for metal, plastic, and rare earth elements.


THIS.
Trash miner will be a occupation in the near future.
/ I've been saying this for years.
 
2012-10-07 09:32:30 PM  
Yeah, I used to do the recycling thing. I soon figured out it was taking two days to collect one days worth of beer drinking so I stopped.
 
2012-10-07 09:35:24 PM  

Ringo48: What's the problem?

Wasn't the goal to encourage recycling to save the environment? Isn't that what's happening?


I'm a California tax payer and I approve this message.
 
2012-10-07 09:40:52 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: ArcadianRefugee: Pfft. Bring 'em to Michigan.


[images.mentalfloss.com image 500x368]

This. Have a snowbird in the family. They would literally keep huge trash bags of crushed cans they accumulated while at their winter home, and bring them back to Michigan to cash in. Used to cover the cost of gas of the trip before gas prices went insane.


Yeah, and thanks to nonsense like this, it takes me 3x as long to return bottles and cans at Meijer since the new read-if-it's-got-a-Michigan-bought-mark on it machines like to not read certain cans that were damn skippy sure bought in Michigan.

Eh, whatever.

MI's 10 cent deposit law, last I heard, was *the* most successful recycling program in the country. Considering it was started as an anti-littering thing, that's pretty effing awesome. (I still have friends who pick up an easy $30-$50 for an hour or two of work on football Saturdays just from deposits. If you toss it, *someone* will find it and get the effing dime).
 
2012-10-07 09:43:21 PM  
I don't know what spot prices are for bricked beverage cans, but it's about 30 cans to the pound. So it costs about $1.50 a pound to buy them back for recycling. If they get 85 cents per pound it might not cost them anything to operate after they get the deposits.
 
2012-10-07 09:43:58 PM  

DON.MAC: optikeye: Deposits used to be built in the prices of soda sold in glass bottles. It wasn't a law here but it was always that way for as long I could remember. It was only when 'no deposit/return' bottles where introduced some states started making laws about bottle returns.

You'd take the empties back to the supermarket and they'd give a few cents for the bottle (I think it was 25 cent for case)..The distributor would pick them up and return to the bottling plant where they where cleaned, refilled and capped. It wasn't a law it just something you did..like saving you empty glass milk bottles for pickup.

Those bottles were cleaned and then refilled. Modern ones are remelted and remade into new bottles. This is from two major reasons, one is there was a tylenol copycat who was trying to put stuff in cleanable bottles and the liability from chipped bottles is just too high. Add in the extra costs of dealing with heavier bottles so they could deal with years of transport and extra weight, it was just cheaper to remelt them. For what it is worth, modern bottle recycling did start from the bottles rejected or broken in the cleaning and refilling process of the old returnables. Currently most glass production is done using base load power so the energy cost isn't that high. I expect that as the base load problem gets solved, glass bottles will go away.


I still pay for a deposit on glass bottles from a local dairy. Of course, the bottles are freaking awesome and sturdy as hell, so I don't necessarily return them all that often, even though it's a $1.50 deposit.
 
2012-10-07 09:47:44 PM  

meanmutton: In Michigan, we have machines you have to put your bottles back in. They scan the bottles and if it's an out-of-state bottle, it gets rejected.


In California, we have hippies & make-work program folks in off-site recycling centers (i.e. not in a supermarket like in Michigan) who take a garbage bag full of empties, pick it up & approximate how much you have in your garbage bag, and then dole out your refund.
 
2012-10-07 09:49:22 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: meanmutton: Glendale: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

They do, actually.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html (pop s)

How the farkin is that legal?

Same way this is legal: 

[farm4.static.flickr.com image 500x400] 

Border Patrol Checkpoint at the San Diego/Orange county line.


To be fair, most of the time cars pass right through. The interior border checkpoint on the 5 is only usually active (and thus stopping traffic) at nights (10-midnight, after rush hour) and on the weekend. Those interior checkpoints are not unique to California.

In terms of agriculture checkpoints (what the "entering California" border stations really are), Hawaii has the same sort of controls. Granted, because Hawaii is a set of islands and access is restricted to sea/airports, the inspection can be made much more thorough without bothering people to much. While there is the advantage that California's borders are protected by high mountains and arid desert, conducting agricultural control California is a little more challenging. That being said, California produces a LOT of food and an invasive species can cause serious agricultural issues.

For those farkers who go into histrionics about "zomg police state in california!", realize that you don't have the constitutional right to cause an agricultural catastrophe, and that a worker asking "hey, do you have any food in there" is not a search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_Interior_Che c kpoints
 
2012-10-07 09:54:39 PM  

DON.MAC: Aussie_As: ......

Did you read that? 29% of your tonnage of "recycling" is concrete. Other states don't count that do they?

How about the "Cardboard & waxed cardboard, 162,000t , 6%"
There is zero market in Australia for recycled waxed cardboard. That stuff all gets landfilled. And it gets landfilled in Victoria since that is where most of your cardboard gets processed.

What is your wine bottle recycling rate?

An empty truck or container going to SA can take 10 tons of cans or many times more in glass bottles. Are they counted? Why no... or are they?

Your cite shows 57 ktons of glass vs 18 ktons of Aluminium. So some how SA managed to recycle 40% of the aluminiums 44.1 ktons of cans sold in Australia in a given year. See why I don't think the numbers are quite right?

http://www.aluminium-cans.com.au/Facts.html


If "other states don't count (concrete recycling) do they", why is it so apparent in Victoria's and NSW's recycling activity? (cite and cite) These were just the first results which popped up when I GIS'd the state's name and the words recycling rate.

Here's yet another cite - this time from the Sydney Morning Herald, which has no reason to be pro-South Australian - talking up the results of our system. Link

I can't find a rate of recycling wine bottles in the 45 seconds I spent googling this, but these are acknowledged to form a low rate of litter. I would expect given we've had separated recycling for about 20 years its on a par with other locations.

Where does my citation show SA recycling 18Ktons of aluminium cans? It shows a bit under 4ktons. Perhaps you've confused all aluminium with aluminium cans? Link

I'm also confused about your reference to 6% cardboard recycling. You do understand taht the 6% refers to this as being 6% of all recycled material by mass, don't you?

Yes perhaps a few trucks from Victoria exploit the SA system, but they're very farking stupid if they're doing this all over SA because the petrol costs would be very prohibitive, yet we have recycling depots all over the place, not just near the Victorian border.
 
2012-10-07 10:14:14 PM  

proteus_b: not to mention the costs of the recycling fraud unit...


In the Environmental Justice System, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious misdemeanors are members of an elite squad known as the Recycling Fraud Unit. These are their stories.
*DONK DONK*
 
2012-10-07 10:20:38 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.


This. There are pests in other states that aren't present in California, and the state would like to keep that way. Being a major agricultural state agricultural pests are taken seriously.

Official Song of the California's Border Protection Stations
 
2012-10-07 10:21:27 PM  
Columbia, Mo has/had the deposit law. If you buy a case of whatever in town it cost $1.20/case more than if you buy it just out of town. The cans had to be returned intact (ie not crushed). Complete PITA so I always bought mine from out of town and let the homeless people figure it out.
 
2012-10-07 10:35:00 PM  
Someone should let the airline industry know
 
2012-10-07 10:49:36 PM  

Aussie_As: Here's yet another cite - this time from the Sydney Morning Herald, which has no reason to be pro-South Australian - talking up the results of our system. Link

I can't find a rate of recycling wine bottles in the 45 seconds I spent googling this, but these are acknowledged to form a low rate of litter. I would expect given we've had separated recycling for about 20 years its on a par with other locations.

Where does my citation show SA recycling 18Ktons of aluminium cans? It shows a bit under 4ktons. Perhaps you've confused all aluminium with aluminium cans? Link

I'm also confused about your reference to 6% cardboard recycling. You do understand taht the 6% refers to this as being 6% of all recycled material by mass, don't you?

Yes perhaps a few trucks from Victoria exploit the SA system, but they're very farking stupid if they're doing this all over SA because the petrol costs would be very prohibitive, yet we have recycling depots all over the place, not just near the Victorian border.


The recycled concrete on any data involving weight make all the data useless. It wasn't int the last Victoria data I saw which was used to prove the SA can law was more effective than Victorias.

Your other data sources are all the same data from the same sources, just reported differently.

Now the 4ktons of cans still makes the point that SA recycles more cans than they use. The 4kton number is more reasonable but the 18 ktons can be found on green group web pages. I expect it shows the fraud problem is even worse.

The trucks from Victoria would be driving empty trucks to pick up things in SA. Their extra load for the cans is just cash in the drivers pocket and they aren't driving there just to sell the cans.

I'm skeptical of most figures to prove how one system works better than another when you can't compare two of them directly. When you start throwing in other figures like superannuation firms investment in landfills shows a different skew in the data, something else is going on and the numbers aren't telling the whole story.
 
2012-10-07 10:58:22 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: Columbia, Mo has/had the deposit law. If you buy a case of whatever in town it cost $1.20/case more than if you buy it just out of town. The cans had to be returned intact (ie not crushed). Complete PITA so I always bought mine from out of town and let the homeless people figure it out.


As an experiment on social behavior, I helped someone set up a video camera up on the Mark Twain hall pointed at a can that didn't have the sticker on it and wasn't a common drink. Many bums picked it up and put it back down and it stayed there at least a week until some bum just put it in his bag. There was good money making the orange stickers too.

The litter rates in Columbia tend to be higher than Jeff City which doesn't have the deposit law and has a co-mingled recycle program.

There have been several studies at the Mizzou university hospital research groups that work with medical issues with the city homeless and many of the researchers have proposed a connection between going through garbage and some of the spread of some of the otherwise very rare conditions. Others counter that the bums that have the problems have no other likely source of income so they work in the only town in the area where it makes any real income.
 
2012-10-07 11:00:31 PM  

ceebeecates4: Pray 4 Mojo: meanmutton: Glendale: craxyd: FTA: Last summer, the state Department of Food and Agriculture counted all vehicles driving into the state with used beverage containers through 16 border stations.

This leads me to believe that CA has something resembling customs like when entering a different country.

They do, actually.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html (pop s)

How the farkin is that legal?

Same way this is legal: 

[farm4.static.flickr.com image 500x400] 

Border Patrol Checkpoint at the San Diego/Orange county line.

To be fair, most of the time cars pass right through. The interior border checkpoint on the 5 is only usually active (and thus stopping traffic) at nights (10-midnight, after rush hour) and on the weekend. Those interior checkpoints are not unique to California.

In terms of agriculture checkpoints (what the "entering California" border stations really are), Hawaii has the same sort of controls. Granted, because Hawaii is a set of islands and access is restricted to sea/airports, the inspection can be made much more thorough without bothering people to much. While there is the advantage that California's borders are protected by high mountains and arid desert, conducting agricultural control California is a little more challenging. That being said, California produces a LOT of food and an invasive species can cause serious agricultural issues.

For those farkers who go into histrionics about "zomg police state in california!", realize that you don't have the constitutional right to cause an agricultural catastrophe, and that a worker asking "hey, do you have any food in there" is not a search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_Interior_Che c kpoints


In my family, we always called them the "fruit stands." I seem to recall that Arizona also had them; I can't find a date for when they stopped. I'm sure that didn't turn out well.
 
2012-10-07 11:04:00 PM  

ceebeecates4: To be fair, most of the time cars pass right through. The interior border checkpoint on the 5 is only usually active (and thus stopping traffic) at nights (10-midnight, after rush hour) and on the weekend. Those interior checkpoints are not unique to California.


Wasn't making a judgement on the checkpoints really... I think they're completely pointless window dressing... but I just choose to avoid them in kinda the same way I avoid the TSA.

The big issue I have with them is the ones in East County SD use those loose, rubber speed bumps. They need to outlaw those farking things. I still have a nice pink scar on my forearm from hitting one of things on my motorcycle.
 
2012-10-07 11:05:09 PM  

wildcardjack: I don't know what spot prices are for bricked beverage cans, but it's about 30 cans to the pound. So it costs about $1.50 a pound to buy them back for recycling. If they get 85 cents per pound it might not cost them anything to operate after they get the deposits.


I dunnot how it is elsewhere, but in Michigan, the 10 cents is actually collected at the point of sale. So, you return a can, you get 10 cents, nothing is lost. You don't return a can, the company nets an EXTRA ten cent profit.
 
2012-10-07 11:43:54 PM  

legion_of_doo: meanmutton: In Michigan, we have machines you have to put your bottles back in. They scan the bottles and if it's an out-of-state bottle, it gets rejected.

In California, we have hippies & make-work program folks in off-site recycling centers (i.e. not in a supermarket like in Michigan) who take a garbage bag full of empties, pick it up & approximate how much you have in your garbage bag, and then dole out your refund.


That Simpsons episode makes sense now.

/contemporize, man!
//don't have/need a car (most of the time, borrow / rent when I do) but the party store down the street takes $2 worth back at a time. So every time I host a coworker gathering I end up with $2 off my next purchase for up to the next four visits. Also bonus, any obscure beer gets accepted there no questions asked.
//still takes awhile for out of staters to get into the habit
///20+ years and it's as natural to me as washing the dishes, cept I get cash back for that chore
 
2012-10-07 11:47:17 PM  
Anyone remember the Golden Goat? Standalone kiosks where you could drop cans. They chewed them up and dispensed change based on the price per pound, which was displayed on the outside in the same manner as gas prices. Good times for a ten-year-old. Pocket full of change, scampering off to buy penny whistles and moon rockets.
 
2012-10-07 11:47:49 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: wildcardjack: I don't know what spot prices are for bricked beverage cans, but it's about 30 cans to the pound. So it costs about $1.50 a pound to buy them back for recycling. If they get 85 cents per pound it might not cost them anything to operate after they get the deposits.

I dunnot how it is elsewhere, but in Michigan, the 10 cents is actually collected at the point of sale. So, you return a can, you get 10 cents, nothing is lost. You don't return a can, the company nets an EXTRA ten cent profit.


The *state* gets the profit.

AFAIK.

I realize I'm throwing down the 10 cents initially ... unless it's friends bringing over drinks then bonus.
 
2012-10-07 11:54:49 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: wildcardjack: I don't know what spot prices are for bricked beverage cans, but it's about 30 cans to the pound. So it costs about $1.50 a pound to buy them back for recycling. If they get 85 cents per pound it might not cost them anything to operate after they get the deposits.

I dunnot how it is elsewhere, but in Michigan, the 10 cents is actually collected at the point of sale. So, you return a can, you get 10 cents, nothing is lost. You don't return a can, the company nets an EXTRA ten cent profit.


It's the same in Oregon. For example, when you buy a 12 pack of soft drinks you pay the 60¢ (5¢ per can) deposit on top of the price. It's up to you whether or not you redeem the bottles/can and get your deposit back.
 
2012-10-07 11:59:19 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: I dunnot how it is elsewhere, but in Michigan, the 10 cents is actually collected at the point of sale. So, you return a can, you get 10 cents, nothing is lost. You don't return a can, the company nets an EXTRA ten cent profit.


In California, you pay the CRV at the register, but you don't return cans at the store.

Maybe the store has the hippie behind the store, but many stores don't have the recycling guy behind the store to do your refund.

It's often a separate stop on the shopping trip to do the recycling, so there's a disincentive to recycle that way. For many people, a lot of the cans/bottles go out in the recycling bins or the regular trash because of the inconvenience, so the rate at which people are actually redeeming the CRV does seem kind of high.

/it's like the state wants to keep your money!
 
2012-10-08 12:04:17 AM  
Some time ago I saw a guy in Texas with a Ford Econoline just STUFFED with empty cans. On top were four big bags, 4' diameter and 8' long, and he was headed to Michigan to resell them at 10 cents each.

In Texas they were paying 45 cents Lb at the time, it takes 26 cans to make a pound on average.

Interstate can smuggling? What will they think of next?
 
2012-10-08 12:30:28 AM  

foxyshadis: Glendale: I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.

That's odd, because my experience is this:

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.

They are pressured by the DEA to at least do a look-see inside for drugs, but yeah, they always ask about food. Flying into CA airports from international will ask the same thing, but not from other states, oddly. If you are bringing food, it has to be a one-day's supply; a box of oranges will get seized, as my mom found out coming from Oregon one time. Not sure about cheese, but we spent so much money on our cheese in Holland that we said nothing to get through.


My experience is pretty much driving I-80 from Reno through their Truckee checkpoint. I have to think they see NV plates and probably assume you're from Reno (and aren't towing a boat, or have a trailer, a camper, etc.). I've never had anything but wave-throughs from the checkpoint or at the most slowly rolling through long enough to tell them I was coming from Reno. I have seen them going through a boat with several guys and the owner off to the side. But for me personally I guess I've never tripped their spidey-produce sense.
 
2012-10-08 12:38:57 AM  

chuckufarlie: I lived in Michigan in 1979 and they had a law like this. They were smart enough that they also passed a law requiring that all cans sold in Michigan had that fact prominently displayed on the can. Poor California, maybe you should smarten up. Then again, you DID elect ARNOLD to be your governator.


So why were my friends able to bring bags upon bags of Ohio cans up to Michigan in the 90s and redeem them for 10 cents each at Meijer? I don't think your brilliant law was very effective.
 
2012-10-08 12:43:38 AM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: State officials say recycling centers in California are required to take reasonable precautions: They are not allowed, for instance, to buy more than 500 pounds of aluminum or 2,500 pounds of glass from any one person in any given day

Seems like you could cut the fraud back significantly by simply reducing that to 50 lbs/day. Even Drew doesn't generate 50 lbs of empty Heineken cans in a week.


BOTTLES. He gets them from Lootie.
 
2012-10-08 12:44:06 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: Pfft. Bring 'em to Michigan.


[images.mentalfloss.com image 500x368]


I used to do that!

// ohio!
 
2012-10-08 12:58:16 AM  

optikeye: Deposits used to be built in the prices of soda sold in glass bottles. It wasn't a law here but it was always that way for as long I could remember. It was only when 'no deposit/return' bottles where introduced some states started making laws about bottle returns.

You'd take the empties back to the supermarket and they'd give a few cents for the bottle (I think it was 25 cent for case)..The distributor would pick them up and return to the bottling plant where they where cleaned, refilled and capped. It wasn't a law it just something you did..like saving you empty glass milk bottles for pickup.


They still do that for chocolate milk and root beer milk at Whole Foods, but the deposit is now $1.50.
 
2012-10-08 01:01:30 AM  

legion_of_doo: It's often a separate stop on the shopping trip to do the recycling, so there's a disincentive to recycle that way. For many people, a lot of the cans/bottles go out in the recycling bins or the regular trash because of the inconvenience, so the rate at which people are actually redeeming the CRV does seem kind of high.


Exactly. I had a friend visit once and she was aghast that I throw my soda cans in the trash (and I drink diet soda like most people drink water). I told her that there are so many homeless people whose job is dumpster diving in my neighborhood, it's gonna get recycled anyway.

/csb
 
2012-10-08 01:08:04 AM  
I do miss michigans bottle returns system. It was so much easier than it is here in Cali. Trying to find an open recycling center here is a pain in the ass. The one near me was only open 1 day a week for years. And I was always working when it was open. I figure that for how few returnables we have it is just not worth it to return them. At least in MI I could just take them to the grocery store, liquor store, 7-11, etc to return them.

\Also drank plenty

peewinkle: Mad Scientist: I used to play that scam when I lived in Michigan many years ago. Back then, it was a dime per can or bottle. I'd gather them up when I visited family in Chicago, and net a few buck bringing them back home. But then the grocery store went to automatic machines, and would reject containers with the wrong bar code, or brands they didn't sell.

The state of Michigan still made millions off unclaimed deposits, but I couldn't return Old Style cans in Ann Arbor.

I've never seen Old Style sold here, and I'm 40.

/used to rock a trunk full off cans back myself when I came home before the machines


They sold it in Mt Pleasant when i was in college there in the 90's.
 
2012-10-08 01:35:43 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: To solve the problem of out of state people inflating numbers, just adjust the payout on cans to reflect market value. If people still want to drive across the boarder and get money, yay for entrepreneurship. To solve the problem of actual fraud (inflating numbers or re-selling the same load), get some investigators in the statehouse. Ta-da. If you want to be eco-friendly, just say that any income gained by recycling cans and bottles isn't subject to state taxation.
um.


So you are one of those "ha-ha it's not a tax it's a fee " creeps? It IS a tax/fee on the buyer when we are charged the deposit, but it's all but impossible to get the deposit back. Far locations, open just 9-3, long lines, haunted locations. To waste an hour to get 90 cents for 18 cans? Not a tax? The extra tax is paid when you buy the drink.
 
2012-10-08 01:47:27 AM  
Hell, I do this all the time. Mass has a bottle return program. RI doesn't. A good portion of the time, you get the returnable bottles/cans in RI, so you're not paying the deposit fee. I then take those back to MA and get the nickle from 'em. Then again, I do most of my grocery shopping in MA anyway. It's less expensive there.
 
2012-10-08 01:51:13 AM  
Sounds like a job for the TSA
 
2012-10-08 02:33:13 AM  
How is it "fraud" -- seems like the natural result of an idiotic policy.

/and I say that as a Californian
 
2012-10-08 02:42:23 AM  

Glendale: foxyshadis: Glendale: I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.

That's odd, because my experience is this:

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.

They are pressured by the DEA to at least do a look-see inside for drugs, but yeah, they always ask about food. Flying into CA airports from international will ask the same thing, but not from other states, oddly. If you are bringing food, it has to be a one-day's supply; a box of oranges will get seized, as my mom found out coming from Oregon one time. Not sure about cheese, but we spent so much money on our cheese in Holland that we said nothing to get through.

My experience is pretty much driving I-80 from Reno through their Truckee checkpoint. I have to think they see NV plates and probably assume you're from Reno (and aren't towing a boat, or have a trailer, a camper, etc.). I've never had anything but wave-throughs from the checkpoint or at the most slowly rolling through long enough to tell them I was coming from Reno. I have seen them going through a boat with several guys and the owner off to the side. But for me personally I guess I've never tripped their spidey-produce sense.


It's easy to avoid the checkpoints altogether if you want to. They only exist on the major roads (interstates) -- if you get off the interstate before the border and just drive on back-roads, there's no check. I crossed from AZ to CA near Needles, CA on in-town streets and never was hassled with a checkpoint. Imagine that -- state-to-state, with no papers.

www.ibiblio.org
 
2012-10-08 08:27:18 AM  
I have no idea how people were able to return crushed cans in MI. As far back as I remember, early 80's, stores would not accept crushed cans.
 
2012-10-08 08:37:02 AM  

bingo the psych-o: Introitus: Oh darn, now California has a bunch of aluminum.

That means they have stealth bombers. I don't even have cannons yet!


I see what you did there!
 
2012-10-08 09:14:44 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: MI's 10 cent deposit law, last I heard, was *the* most successful recycling program in the country. Considering it was started as an anti-littering thing, that's pretty effing awesome. (I still have friends who pick up an easy $30-$50 for an hour or two of work on football Saturdays just from deposits. If you toss it, *someone* will find it and get the effing dime).


I really, really wish Illinois would do that as well. Nothing like getting home from Michigan and seeing tossed cans and bottles lying on the roadside.
 
2012-10-08 09:17:38 AM  
It took 3 whole posts. Fark, I am disappoint.
 
2012-10-08 09:57:26 AM  

foxyshadis: Glendale: I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.

That's odd, because my experience is this:

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.

They are pressured by the DEA to at least do a look-see inside for drugs, but yeah, they always ask about food. Flying into CA airports from international will ask the same thing, but not from other states, oddly. If you are bringing food, it has to be a one-day's supply; a box of oranges will get seized, as my mom found out coming from Oregon one time. Not sure about cheese, but we spent so much money on our cheese in Holland that we said nothing to get through.


It has nothing to do with the DEA. Jesus. California is an agricultural state(5th largest ag output in the world, according to wiki). It produces most of the nation's winter produce. We had the med fly in the 80s and we worked very hard to get rid of it, including setting up checkpoints to keep infested produce from coming in.
 
2012-10-08 10:26:30 AM  

bwilson27: Employees were so lazy at the Lincoln City, OR Safeway that all you would have to do is throw your bag of empty cans in a bin in the back room and tell them how much you had. I always had 15.00 more than I thought I had, imagine that!


I miss living in Lincoln City. Was there from 96-02. I used to save all my cans, and head to Kenny's IGA in Taft to return them. Good times!
 
2012-10-08 12:03:29 PM  

Kevin72: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: To solve the problem of out of state people inflating numbers, just adjust the payout on cans to reflect market value. If people still want to drive across the boarder and get money, yay for entrepreneurship. To solve the problem of actual fraud (inflating numbers or re-selling the same load), get some investigators in the statehouse. Ta-da. If you want to be eco-friendly, just say that any income gained by recycling cans and bottles isn't subject to state taxation.
um.

So you are one of those "ha-ha it's not a tax it's a fee " creeps? It IS a tax/fee on the buyer when we are charged the deposit, but it's all but impossible to get the deposit back. Far locations, open just 9-3, long lines, haunted locations. To waste an hour to get 90 cents for 18 cans? Not a tax? The extra tax is paid when you buy the drink.


So you're angry that people come across the state line for economic reasons. I assume you've never bought gas, groceries, or "sin tax" items in another state to get more bang for your buck, just for the sake of consistency.

Read my proposal again. If you pay market value per pound of aluminum, the tax/fee/surcharge/whatever you want to call it goes to administering the program and investigating commodity fraud (which is what selling the same load twice is). Then, one can becomes as good as the next. If you're really that upset about it, drive the other way across the border and buy your cans.
 
2012-10-08 03:06:24 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Kevin72: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: To solve the problem of out of state people inflating numbers, just adjust the payout on cans to reflect market value. If people still want to drive across the boarder and get money, yay for entrepreneurship. To solve the problem of actual fraud (inflating numbers or re-selling the same load), get some investigators in the statehouse. Ta-da. If you want to be eco-friendly, just say that any income gained by recycling cans and bottles isn't subject to state taxation.
um.

So you are one of those "ha-ha it's not a tax it's a fee " creeps? It IS a tax/fee on the buyer when we are charged the deposit, but it's all but impossible to get the deposit back. Far locations, open just 9-3, long lines, haunted locations. To waste an hour to get 90 cents for 18 cans? Not a tax? The extra tax is paid when you buy the drink.

So you're angry that people come across the state line for economic reasons. I assume you've never bought gas, groceries, or "sin tax" items in another state to get more bang for your buck, just for the sake of consistency.

Read my proposal again. If you pay market value per pound of aluminum, the tax/fee/surcharge/whatever you want to call it goes to administering the program and investigating commodity fraud (which is what selling the same load twice is). Then, one can becomes as good as the next. If you're really that upset about it, drive the other way across the border and buy your cans.


Just pissed that i would like to do the right thing and recycle. But all i see is crv is so easy to tax from me, and the opportunity to actually recycle, paid or not, is totally Sisyphusian.
 
2012-10-08 04:48:15 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: It's the same in Oregon. For example, when you buy a 12 pack of soft drinks you pay the 60¢ (5¢ per can) deposit on top of the price. It's up to you whether or not you redeem the bottles/can and get your deposit back.


When I first moved to Oregon I took my empties to the local supermarket and dealt with the machine, never again. My time is worth more than that. Now I just collect bags of them and wait until some kids are collecting for something worthwhile (not a trip to jebus camp) and donate.
 
2012-10-08 06:11:53 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: fusillade762: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

[insidescoopsf.sfgate.com image 600x448]

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.

And there's also a limit to how many cans/bottles you can redeem too.


Am I a bad person for simply throwing my cans and bottles into the recycling container that gets picked up each week? I probably throw away $2-4 dollars a week, but figure I'd pay somebody that to wait in line at grocery store recycling bins and deal with all the sticky cans for me. Wonder if Waste Management tries to collect those nickles?
 
2012-10-08 08:32:12 PM  

caddisfly: Bathia_Mapes: fusillade762: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

[insidescoopsf.sfgate.com image 600x448]

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.

And there's also a limit to how many cans/bottles you can redeem too.

Am I a bad person for simply throwing my cans and bottles into the recycling container that gets picked up each week? I probably throw away $2-4 dollars a week, but figure I'd pay somebody that to wait in line at grocery store recycling bins and deal with all the sticky cans for me. Wonder if Waste Management tries to collect those nickles?


I'm even worse, I don't put out the recycling until the morning before they pick it up so the guys driving the pickup trucks with the giant particle board walls don't grab it first.
 
2012-10-08 09:47:36 PM  

caddisfly: Bathia_Mapes: fusillade762: Bathia_Mapes: Meh. Oregon passed the Bottle Bill in 1971. Most stores have bottle return centers nowadays and you must redeem the deposit chit the machine dispenses the same day and at the same store.

Yeah, I was thinking "Good luck processing a semi trailer full of cans and bottles with one of these"

[insidescoopsf.sfgate.com image 600x448]

But I'm guessing CA doesn't make you do it yourself.

And there's also a limit to how many cans/bottles you can redeem too.

Am I a bad person for simply throwing my cans and bottles into the recycling container that gets picked up each week? I probably throw away $2-4 dollars a week, but figure I'd pay somebody that to wait in line at grocery store recycling bins and deal with all the sticky cans for me. Wonder if Waste Management tries to collect those nickles?


Probably not since it's likely not too cost effective for them. They likely process it along with the rest of the metal they get. Aluminum with aluminum, tin cans with tin cans, etc. Same goes for the plastic soda bottles.
 
2012-10-09 09:55:10 AM  

bhcompy: foxyshadis: Glendale: I think California takes this a bit further in their own special way. Truck scales are everywhere, sure, but CA actually has everyone pass through their inspection stations as close as possible to the state line, as in the entire freeway diverts through them, not some optional thing only for commercial vehicles. I have Nevada plates on my car so they normally just wave me through before I can manage to come to a stop, but if not, the worst case is they stop you and ask where you're coming from. Or if you have a boat they'll go through it and make sure it isn't carrying anything they don't want to see. I suppose if it looked like you were transporting a lot of stuff they'd check that out, too.

That's odd, because my experience is this:

Pray 4 Mojo: Agricultural checkpoints... they "stop" every vehicle coming into the State... "Where are you coming from? Any fruits or vegetables?" And they will search campers and shiat.

They are pressured by the DEA to at least do a look-see inside for drugs, but yeah, they always ask about food. Flying into CA airports from international will ask the same thing, but not from other states, oddly. If you are bringing food, it has to be a one-day's supply; a box of oranges will get seized, as my mom found out coming from Oregon one time. Not sure about cheese, but we spent so much money on our cheese in Holland that we said nothing to get through.

It has nothing to do with the DEA. Jesus. California is an agricultural state(5th largest ag output in the world, according to wiki). It produces most of the nation's winter produce. We had the med fly in the 80s and we worked very hard to get rid of it, including setting up checkpoints to keep infested produce from coming in.


Yeah there's nothing sinister about CA's agricultural checkpoints. Weird to anyone who isn't familiar with such things, sure, but not really a big deal.
 
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