If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(MLive.com)   Should students be allowed to tape lectures on their phones? Teacher contract forbids the practice   (mlive.com) divider line 181
    More: Interesting, University of New York, Graduate School of Journalism, lessons  
•       •       •

7495 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Oct 2012 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



181 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-10-07 02:54:56 PM
as a teacher, i do not like it, but some students do it anyway.
 
2012-10-07 03:00:58 PM
Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.
 
2012-10-07 03:06:12 PM
Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.
 
2012-10-07 03:23:42 PM
I used to encourage my students to record my lectures if that made things easier for them, on the condition that they gave me a copy. Then a few years ago, I had a student whose physical condition made it difficult for him to take written notes, and I finally broke down and bought a digital recorder for myself and started posting the recordings on the class website. I like this better for two reasons; (1) the audio quality is much better, and (2) the directional mic doesn't pick up student questions, which is good. A student who is nervous about speaking up in class might be even more nervous if s/he is being recorded, so the classroom recording by other students tended to have a slight dampening effect on participation (I haven't quantified that and have no evidence to back it up, but it just feels that way).

(The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online. Why are you wasting your phone's batteries to get a crappy image of a slide that's already available to you? Makes no damned sense to me.)
 
2012-10-07 03:34:23 PM
Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP
 
2012-10-07 04:14:47 PM
Unless the contract specifically defines the word 'record', the snippet in TFA would seem to prohibit students taking notes.
 
2012-10-07 04:40:30 PM
My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.
 
2012-10-07 05:47:36 PM

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.
 
2012-10-07 05:48:48 PM

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


You might have an argument in two-party consent states, but otherwise, yeah I don't see how that would hold up.
 
2012-10-07 05:49:39 PM

Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.


So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?
 
2012-10-07 05:49:44 PM

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


You might want to return your GED in Law.
 
2012-10-07 05:50:05 PM

Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.


Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.
 
2012-10-07 05:50:31 PM

dahmers love zombie: My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.


Makes sense. Hell back in the early 80's when I was in college there were students with cassette recorders in class. You could also subscribe to a note taking service. Students who had taken the class previously and got good grades would audit the class and take notes which were then for sale.
 
2012-10-07 05:51:05 PM
FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).
 
2012-10-07 05:51:31 PM
My takeaway from this whole thing was that a student was using Google to find out what polio is.
If the anti-vaxers had their way, kids would know without having to look it up. I'm better with them having to look it up, frankly.

/End threadjack
 
2012-10-07 05:52:34 PM
i291.photobucket.com

/stop touching yourself
 
2012-10-07 05:52:41 PM
Good thing nobody uses tape recorders any more.

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-07 05:54:38 PM

endosymbiont: FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).


Just to clarify in case anyone misunderstands, MGL 272 §99 is the general wiretapping law here, which may be read on recording in a classroom, but isn't specific to it. Also, it's not sure that it would apply, since it's likely that recording a lecture would not be done "secretly", which is required under the statute.
 
2012-10-07 05:55:07 PM
soundstudies.files.wordpress.com
This is still ok, right?
 
2012-10-07 05:55:16 PM
Anything done by government employees should be viewable by the public. Exceptions: private court proceedings, national security, sealed records, top secret clearance, etc. By making lectures private, it puts them on level with national security. Students and teachers are not on that level.

If you are on a public payroll, hold yourself up to a higher standard. Don't stop recording of lectures, just because you like to say or do wacky things in class that might be illegal.
 
2012-10-07 05:55:25 PM
So because someone doesn't have an eidetic memory you are going to arbitrarily restrict their ability to accurately reference what was said in a lecture. I don't know about you but when I turn my attention to taking notes I invariably miss other content in the lecture due to the interruption in focus.

I swear teachers these days are idiots.
 
2012-10-07 05:56:16 PM
Curses! Stupid having to remember which password to use and slowing down my post.
 
2012-10-07 05:57:53 PM

Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.


1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.
2. Do wiretapping laws come into play? Is Michigan a two-party-consent state?
3. Similar to #2, I've been told if I intend to make a recording of my classroom, I should get written permission from all students' parents. If students wish to make a recording of me, they should get my permission.

Notice this isn't saying it's forbidden. Taping without knowledge and consent is what's forbidden.
 
2012-10-07 05:58:21 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


Assuming a public school, how is your taxpayer funded lecture, based on a curriculum developed by public employees, not a work for hire?
 
2012-10-07 06:01:34 PM

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in... laws... I intend to make .... students... get my... forbidden... knowledge...


O.o
 
2012-10-07 06:05:50 PM

Fizpez: Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.

So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?


Depends, did you pay for a ticket and did that ticket have lots of tiny writing on the back of it?
 
2012-10-07 06:07:03 PM

BizarreMan: dahmers love zombie: My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.

Makes sense. Hell back in the early 80's when I was in college there were students with cassette recorders in class. You could also subscribe to a note taking service. Students who had taken the class previously and got good grades would audit the class and take notes which were then for sale.


Still somewhat exists with Koofer's but honestly, the kinds of students that pay for notes are the ones that then only half-study the evening before an exam and get an A. I liken it to someone who would skip class and try to google the information, even if the notes are good, there's no in-class context to them or motivation to study the information.
 
2012-10-07 06:07:57 PM
The students who record my records are usually ESL students who need more time to digest what I say.

I have had one student come to me after a test and say they had me recorded mis-stating something that caused them to incorrectly answer a test question. I told them that I had also correctly stated that same thing a dozen times, so why did they focus on the one time I erred? They didn't get the 2 points back.
 
2012-10-07 06:08:47 PM
Uh ..."record my lectures"...
 
2012-10-07 06:09:03 PM
I wouldn't teach in today's environment without being recorded, and preferably videotaped.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:31 PM
I agree with not allowing kids in public schools to record the lecture. Let them use pen (or pencil) and paper (or parchment) to take notes. As for private institutions, let them set whatever policy they want. If you do not agree with it then do not attend that particular school.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:33 PM

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.
2. Do wiretapping laws come into play? Is Michigan a two-party-consent state?
3. Similar to #2, I've been told if I intend to make a recording of my classroom, I should get written permission from all students' parents. If students wish to make a recording of me, they should get my permission.

Notice this isn't saying it's forbidden. Taping without knowledge and consent is what's forbidden.


So, since the other students could be recorded, it a student wants to make a recording of the class, they should get written permission from all the students' parents?

I'm serious, I'm not being a wise-ass.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:36 PM

BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.


Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:35 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


I didn't think of that. I guess I work in an industry where whatever I come up with during the course of my employment automatically becomes company property, including IP.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:43 PM
I was never a fan of recording lectures. I could listen to the same thing 10x in a row and not retain nearly as much of it as I would from listening once while taking notes/outlining key points.

I suppose recording the lecture and then taking notes from the recording so that you know you didn't miss anything could be useful, but I wonder how many students take that step. I'm all for using technology to help achieve better results, but just taking a photo of the board with notes and studying from that wouldn't have been nearly as helpful to me as actually physically writing those notes down.

Then again, different peoples' brains work differently.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:45 PM
Can't do it in CA without teacher approval, either.
 
2012-10-07 06:14:04 PM
Teachers are just like cops. You should go to jail for recording them.
 
2012-10-07 06:15:21 PM

office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.


If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.
 
2012-10-07 06:15:48 PM

Thanks for the Meme-ries: [i291.photobucket.com image 300x169]

/stop touching yourself


Heh. First thing I thought of as well.
 
2012-10-07 06:16:22 PM

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


For some reason I have you farkied as 'once tracked down a student's parents to tell them about their kid skipping his class'. Imagine that.
 
2012-10-07 06:17:07 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I was never a fan of recording lectures. I could listen to the same thing 10x in a row and not retain nearly as much of it as I would from listening once while taking notes/outlining key points.

I suppose recording the lecture and then taking notes from the recording so that you know you didn't miss anything could be useful, but I wonder how many students take that step. I'm all for using technology to help achieve better results, but just taking a photo of the board with notes and studying from that wouldn't have been nearly as helpful to me as actually physically writing those notes down.

Then again, different peoples' brains work differently.


Most people are like that.* Once you make a list, you're not going to forget what was on the list nearly as easily just because you went through the act of focusing for a second and writing it down.

*APA style citation
 
2012-10-07 06:18:20 PM

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


If the teacher has no knowledge of the recording, how can he make any attempt to have it become his property?
 
2012-10-07 06:19:34 PM

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.
 
2012-10-07 06:21:31 PM

Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.


I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!
 
2012-10-07 06:22:39 PM

Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.


I guess when the student signed up for the school they are expected to follow the rules in place. As long as they are informed, the student doesn't have much choice.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:05 PM

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


Yep and blind people need to learn how to see.

It's a useful skill every student should have.

Oh, hearing damage, tough, learn the skill. It's a useful skill to have.

Fearful, stuck in the past Teachers like you are not useful any more. Well, we do need daycare workers.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:25 PM

Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.


Most of my professors did exactly this.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:40 PM

Theaetetus: endosymbiont: FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).

Just to clarify in case anyone misunderstands, MGL 272 §99 is the general wiretapping law here, which may be read on recording in a classroom, but isn't specific to it. Also, it's not sure that it would apply, since it's likely that recording a lecture would not be done "secretly", which is required under the statute.


I had a class taught by a judge once and a couple of months in when she realized that many students were recording on their laptops, she read us the riot act. She told us that we were all committing a crime. So, in at least her courtroom, the statute would read on the activity. But I agree with your more grounded interpretation.
 
2012-10-07 06:26:25 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things


True, like when I create a new medical record for a patient I am the copyright holder, but the patient has a right to have the information in the chart.
 
2012-10-07 06:26:26 PM

office_despot: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!


Those over 21 should probably understand by then that they are only wasting their money if they aren't doing whatever it is that they need to do to get the most out of what they are paying to take your class(es).
 
2012-10-07 06:27:15 PM

BumpInTheNight:
For some reason I have you farkied as 'once tracked down a student's parents to tell them about their kid skipping his class'. Imagine that.


You have me what?
Should I be flattered?

No, they're all legal adults where I am. Tracking down their parents is against FERPA. Occasionally I have to turn down requests for information from their parents.
 
2012-10-07 06:27:17 PM

office_despot: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.


No, but you could make a seating chart on the first few days of class, and then just do a visual "is there someone in that seat? No, seat gets an X" scan in a few seconds.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

Like, say, take a photograph of the room at the beginning of the class? And then if someone is doing poorly, take a look through the past photographs and determine that they never showed up?

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!

I agree with you - if someone doesn't show up, their lousy grade is their own fault. So why are you taking it upon yourself to make sure everyone passes? You'll recognize the kids who are doing the work but aren't getting it, because they're the ones staying after to ask you questions. If you don't recognize someone, then why put yourself out?
 
2012-10-07 06:28:22 PM

Je5tEr: office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.

I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.


Same here. My "notes" looks like a few well placed words on a page then handed over to John Madden to make up for clarity.
 
2012-10-07 06:28:38 PM
I think another issue, at least at the K-12 level, is what devices students are using to take these recordings. A digital voice recorder or flip cam seems like it should be OK, but have schools eased off on the 'no phones at school' thing now? When I was in HS cell phones were a thing, but those who had them were still in a minority, and my senior year this was pretty much the height of phone technology:

upload.wikimedia.org

Today phones are pretty much computers, and I can see teachers not wanting students having them out during class as there would be a lot of temptation to be texting, playing games, etc.
 
2012-10-07 06:32:21 PM

Aikidogamer: Je5tEr: office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.

I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.

Same here. My "notes" looks like a few well placed words on a page then handed over to John Madden to make up for clarity.


Wow. Usually I'm completely alone when I bring up my lack of note-taking. Nice to know I'm not the only oddball out there.
 
2012-10-07 06:32:42 PM

BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.


This.

Remember the scene in Real Genius where the students all put recorders on their desks and walked out? It's not a new idea.

My father was in Flight School in the US Army back circa 1981, every candidate there had a little microcassette recorder they used to record the lectures and review them later that night. He was always the biggest proponent of recording classes as I grew up.

When I went back to college briefly circa 2007, and had my first MP3 player, which also had a record function, and used it regularly. It was even a law professor (who was guest lecturing for the semester in the undergrad pre-law classes) that suggested we all do it if we could.

Professors getting in a huff over intellectual property rights for their in-class lectures are letting narrow-minded obsession with IP law cloud the fact that they are there to profess. You know, teach, instruct, convey knowledge. What happens if that mp3 gets out? It means knowledge is shared. Somebody might just learn something.

Yeah, nobody is paying for it, but generally you don't go to college to learn (sad but true). Most people go to college to get a piece of paper that an accreditation agency says has value. For the vast majority of people, it's about getting an accredited degree so they can be competitive in the job market, for a job that will likely not use their degree, or only make peripheral use of it and job experience will be more important than academic learning in the long run.
 
2012-10-07 06:33:22 PM

StoPPeRmobile: office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.

Yep and blind people need to learn how to see.

It's a useful skill every student should have.

Oh, hearing damage, tough, learn the skill. It's a useful skill to have.

Fearful, stuck in the past Teachers like you are not useful any more. Well, we do need daycare workers.


Speaking of "stuck in the past," you seem to be sadly unaware of the ADA. If a student comes in with a note for an accommodation of any disability, special arrangements are made. This is true of 100% of schools in the United States, as far as I am aware. I ask students not to record my lectures. I never said anything about whether or not I recorded them myself, and who I might distribute them to in that case.
 
2012-10-07 06:36:20 PM
I'll just leave this here.

I'm not connected in any way with the company but these things are really damn cool and useful.
 
2012-10-07 06:37:00 PM

Theaetetus: No, but you could make a seating chart on the first few days of class, and then just do a visual "is there someone in that seat? No, seat gets an X" scan in a few seconds.


Ugh, a seating chart for a college class? In... 7 years of undergrad & grad classes I don't think I ever hard one with a seating chart.


Theaetetus: I agree with you - if someone doesn't show up, their lousy grade is their own fault. So why are you taking it upon yourself to make sure everyone passes? You'll recognize the kids who are doing the work but aren't getting it, because they're the ones staying after to ask you questions. If you don't recognize someone, then why put yourself out?


To be fair, I suspect there could be some blowback that he'd have to deal with -- either from school administration and/or parents, not to mention students. And even if you're well-grounded saying "you skipped my class for two months, what do you expect?", it's still hard to not care. A lot of professors are doing it because they like teaching (obviously this is probably more true at a smaller school and less true at a big research institution where a lot of the professors are interested in research and teaching is a necessary evil), and I suspect it's hard to like teaching and not care.
 
2012-10-07 06:38:01 PM

Fizpez: Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.

So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?


The students aren't selling it, they are using it for their own edification - this easily falls under fair use.

Where it would be in violation is if they started recording the lectures and then selling access to them via a private service, or simply re-selling copies without permission/licensing rights.
-yay
 
2012-10-07 06:38:29 PM
I encourage my students to record my lectures. I also encourage them to listen to the lectures again whenever they have free time. Some of them tell me that their kids wonder who "that man" is that mommy is always listening too. After the first major test I have 15-20 recorders and cell phones lined up on my desk. It is a real help because they can take basic notes and fill in the details later. Multiple listening sessions also help with information retention. I avoid the problem of students skipping classes by giving unannounced quizzes each week. I also encourage them to take pictures of my concept maps and other "modern art masterpieces" that I draw on the board. The only thing I don't allow is video taping the lectures. I'm not ending up in a gangam style remix.
 
2012-10-07 06:39:39 PM

office_despot: BumpInTheNight:
For some reason I have you farkied as 'once tracked down a student's parents to tell them about their kid skipping his class'. Imagine that.

You have me what?
Should I be flattered?

No, they're all legal adults where I am. Tracking down their parents is against FERPA. Occasionally I have to turn down requests for information from their parents.


Perhaps I'd marked the wrong person then, I can tell its a pretty old one because there's a colour code on it too (fark favourite tag, optional text commonly used as notes).

What I can say though is I've experienced both ends of the spectrum where a teacher will vehemently be against recording but who's lecture style is the sort where its all one-sided talking without room for questions or discussion and then the other where a teacher would record them self and post it to provide more options. I tend to agree with the 'more options' and if your leaning back on 'well they're adults they outta be self-accountable' but then turn around and suggest the only thing holding them to the class room is the inability to obtain the information from the lecture except by live attendance, I think there's a conflict of logic there.
 
2012-10-07 06:41:19 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


Is there some reason lectures doesn't become the property of the school, just like every other bit of work product generated by employees in every other industry?
 
2012-10-07 06:41:57 PM
Really don't mind if you sit this one out.
My words but a whisper, your deafness a SHOUT.
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
Your sperm's in the gutter, your love's in the sink.
So you ride yourselves over the fields
and you make all your animal deals
and your wise men don't know how it feels, to be thick, as a brick.
 
2012-10-07 06:43:26 PM
I don't let my students record my lectures, primarily because it discourages class participation. I used to allow recording, but found that when students know that any questions they ask or comments they make will be recorded, they tend to just sit there. I'd like for my classes to be a dialogue, not a monologue, so no recording allowed.
 
2012-10-07 06:43:38 PM

Vampirococcus rocks: I encourage my students to record my lectures. I also encourage them to listen to the lectures again whenever they have free time. Some of them tell me that their kids wonder who "that man" is that mommy is always listening too. After the first major test I have 15-20 recorders and cell phones lined up on my desk. It is a real help because they can take basic notes and fill in the details later. Multiple listening sessions also help with information retention. I avoid the problem of students skipping classes by giving unannounced quizzes each week. I also encourage them to take pictures of my concept maps and other "modern art masterpieces" that I draw on the board. The only thing I don't allow is video taping the lectures. I'm not ending up in a gangam style remix.


LOL. they used to have this thing on JibJab where one could put heads of whoever on dancing characters. This was quite popular for a while -- the students used to take photos from the school web pages, make the jibjab videos and e-mail them to me. Truly hilarious.
 
2012-10-07 06:43:38 PM
Were the students party to the contract? No. I don't see how that rule is binding on the students.
 
2012-10-07 06:43:46 PM

evaned: Theaetetus: No, but you could make a seating chart on the first few days of class, and then just do a visual "is there someone in that seat? No, seat gets an X" scan in a few seconds.

Ugh, a seating chart for a college class? In... 7 years of undergrad & grad classes I don't think I ever hard one with a seating chart.


Had 'em all the time in law school. It's not assigned seating, rather, you let people find their own seats during the first few classes, and you make the chart in class three or so, responsive to where everyone wants to sit. The benefit for the prof is that they can then call on students by name when they raise their hand, without needing to actually recognize them.
 
2012-10-07 06:44:29 PM
i129.photobucket.com


Count me in as one of the people who doesn't listen to the instructor when im writing down notes. OK Teacher, here's how it works with me: I either write, or listen. I don't do both, and if I try, I do poorly at both. The newer teachers I work with in community college are pretty cool. One of the older ones, and most older ones i've had the pleasure of studying under, screw this up. Especially if they suddenly discovered Powerpoint, and feel like skipping through 15 frames in about 15 minutes. Theres no way I can write all that down, let alone actually listen to what the fark you're actually saying.

If you demand I write notes, then just so you know, bub, I am not even attempting to listen to the lecture. I am writing notes. You can and should be replaced with a pink flamingo, for all the good you are doing as a teacher. Don't be such a luddite, and let people record if they want to. If they fail, it's on them.

Also, to the person saying that a lecture is your intellectual property, i'd be inclined to agree, provided the lecture is wholly made up of materials discovered, researched, and published by you. Teaching History, Math, Art, basically anything? You're building upon the work others did, I am disinclined to agree with your thought that it's your work.

Respectfully.
 
2012-10-07 06:46:14 PM

everlastinggobstopper: I don't let my students record my lectures, primarily because it discourages class participation. I used to allow recording, but found that when students know that any questions they ask or comments they make will be recorded, they tend to just sit there. I'd like for my classes to be a dialogue, not a monologue, so no recording allowed.


This I must admit is a strong point, as a student I really forced myself to engage in the lectures when appropriate but my shy earlier self might have been put more on edge seeing a dozen or two iphones held up 'with the recording light on' so to speak.
 
2012-10-07 06:48:19 PM
Temescal

Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

For the same reason cops don't like to be filmed.


// lack of ethical behavior.
 
2012-10-07 06:56:15 PM

Theaetetus: It's not assigned seating, rather, you let people find their own seats during the first few classes, and you make the chart in class three or so, responsive to where everyone wants to sit.


I'm pretty ure even that's still beyond anything I had, though I'd say that's what largely happened anyway. I suppose that there could be fields, locations, or universities where that practice is common, in which case using it makes sense I guess.
 
2012-10-07 06:57:12 PM

OnlyM3: For the same reason cops don't like to be filmed.// lack of ethical behavior.


WTF did your teachers do to you?
 
2012-10-07 06:58:21 PM
For f*ck sake notes are just a transcript of a lecture, albeit a transcript that is very likely not as thorough as a recording. Will students have to return their notes at the end of class to be burned to ash?

The whole "don't record my lectures, bro" thing just makes teachers and professors seem anachronistic and petty. It reminds me quite a bit of the RIAA and MPAA. The students, and I'm speaking about college kids here, are going into massive debt just to be able to be gifted with a your wisdom and expertise but...

OHHHHH...I got it. Ha, this is about not wanting to switch your class around next semester when a former students gives/sells the recordings to a current student. Lame, yet more understandable than the "intellectual property" nonsense.

Get the f*ck over yourselves.
 
2012-10-07 07:01:36 PM
Every presentation, lecture, etc., I have given, predominantly on the topic of giftedness, I have explicitly mentioned the materials and lecture itself being available under a Creative Commons, Share-Alike, Non-Commercial license without the need for attribution. I am someone who champions the dissemination of information, freely. However, this is still my intellectual property, and whatever my whims should be followed with concern to recording. I wouldn't stop anyone from audio or video or written recording because I support fair use, but this is me. An instructor should be at least versed enough in pedagogy to realize the recordings and snapshots are beneficial for studying, but there is a concern this is replacing active learning within the classroom; the wishes of the intellectual property creator should be respected (unless I have to pay in which case torrents it is!).
 
2012-10-07 07:01:50 PM

evaned: OnlyM3: For the same reason cops don't like to be filmed.// lack of ethical behavior.

WTF did your teachers do to you?


He's just being an asshole, pay no attention.
 
2012-10-07 07:03:38 PM

Gyrfalcon: evaned: OnlyM3: For the same reason cops don't like to be filmed.// lack of ethical behavior.

WTF did your teachers do to you?

He's just being an asshole, pay no attention.


Yah, that twat I have ignored as 'anti-cop zealot' and surprise surprise.
 
2012-10-07 07:05:26 PM

Thanks for the Meme-ries: [i291.photobucket.com image 300x169]

/stop touching yourself


Came here for this...

/leaving satisfied!
//Your mom sews license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?
 
2012-10-07 07:06:07 PM

OnlyM3: Temescal

Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.
For the same reason cops don't like to be filmed.


// lack of ethical behavior.


No no no, the real reason is because they don't want to have to rewrite tests and answer keys that they've used for the past however many semesters; at least it's the only motivation that makes even a tiny bit of sense.
 
2012-10-07 07:08:22 PM

Je5tEr: Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.

Assuming a public school, how is your taxpayer funded lecture, based on a curriculum developed by public employees, not a work for hire?


I work at a private university, so I have no idea how that works.
 
2012-10-07 07:13:33 PM

Owangotang: No no no, the real reason is because they don't want to have to rewrite tests and answer keys that they've used for the past however many semesters; at least it's the only motivation that makes even a tiny bit of sense.


That doesn't even make sense, except for perhaps the couple days when tests are returned or something.

I'd like to get a teaching (or maybe mostly-teaching) position at some presumably smaller college, and I don't fully understand it. The one thing that does make sense is the participation-dampening effect as FloydA and everlastinggobstopper noted, and that can be reason enough. But that's the only convincing reason I can come up with.
 
2012-10-07 07:13:42 PM
I don't allow my college students to tape record (or any other type of voice recording) my lectures because I crack jokes and tell stories to break up a 3 hour lecture period, to snap them out of the "lecture trance", and to keep things interesting. If one were to take some of my stories/jokes out of context, there could be a misunderstanding.

I don't require my students to take notes. If you can pass my class just by listening and doing all other required work, who am I to argue? It works for you, do it.

I provide PDFs of my lecture slides so that the slow note-takers and those who can't listen and take notes at the same time can keep up. They are also there for those who miss the occasional class.

I drop students when they miss more than the allowed number of classes (two weeks worth for most classes). I do so pretty much mercilessly.

If I have a student who has some disability and one of their accommodations is that they get to tape record my lectures, then I am legally required to allow them to do so. I find that when I know I am being recorded I tone it down and the class can get kinda slow and boring. Being recorded is inhibiting to me and I'm sure to some students (they may not ask a question if they know they're being recorded).

/everyone should have the opportunity to go to college
//not everyone should go to college
///many people in college should not be there
////why do we push everyone to go to college?
 
2012-10-07 07:14:41 PM

ArkAngel:
I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


You really must try recording a film in a cinema and then selling the recording online. Because that would so totally be your IP.
 
2012-10-07 07:15:27 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Je5tEr: Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.

Assuming a public school, how is your taxpayer funded lecture, based on a curriculum developed by public employees, not a work for hire?

I work at a private university, so I have no idea how that works.


I used to work at a private university (not a prof tho) and I do know that while I was there the school tried to assert ownership over something that one of the facilities staff guys invented and patented/produced on his own time and with his own stuff at his own home, so you might want to make sure your contract is iron-clad as far as "your IP" is concerned. Private uni's can be real jerks.
 
2012-10-07 07:15:51 PM

Je5tEr: how is your taxpayer funded lecture, based on a curriculum developed by public employees, not a work for hire


The lecture itself, perhaps, but not the performance of it.
 
2012-10-07 07:22:28 PM

Owangotang: For f*ck sake notes are just a transcript of a lecture, albeit a transcript that is very likely not as thorough as a recording. Will students have to return their notes at the end of class to be burned to ash?

The whole "don't record my lectures, bro" thing just makes teachers and professors seem anachronistic and petty. It reminds me quite a bit of the RIAA and MPAA. The students, and I'm speaking about college kids here, are going into massive debt just to be able to be gifted with a your wisdom and expertise but...

OHHHHH...I got it. Ha, this is about not wanting to switch your class around next semester when a former students gives/sells the recordings to a current student. Lame, yet more understandable than the "intellectual property" nonsense.

Get the f*ck over yourselves.


I took attendance for a 101 class of my major. The professor LOVED when greeks would take his class. He got excited, happy, and then spent a couple hours making sure his tests, with the same questions as previous semesters, all had different answer layouts. I got to share in the joy when I passed out the graded tests, seeing a bro or airhead go from smug and smiling to "wtf happened I memorized all the order of the letters" was awesome.
 
2012-10-07 07:23:34 PM

evaned: Owangotang: No no no, the real reason is because they don't want to have to rewrite tests and answer keys that they've used for the past however many semesters; at least it's the only motivation that makes even a tiny bit of sense.

That doesn't even make sense, except for perhaps the couple days when tests are returned or something.

I'd like to get a teaching (or maybe mostly-teaching) position at some presumably smaller college, and I don't fully understand it. The one thing that does make sense is the participation-dampening effect as FloydA and everlastinggobstopper noted, and that can be reason enough. But that's the only convincing reason I can come up with.


Sure it does, kids sell recordings of a teacher going over a test or instantly grading a quiz and the teacher has to switch things up.

Students will either participate or they won't. The recordings have no impact; students that participate are more engaged and are going to remain more engaged even if they are recording the class.

It's simply teachers and professors fighting back against progress, because THEY didn't use such tools to assist their learning so why should YOU be able to?
 
2012-10-07 07:25:00 PM

Je5tEr: I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.


When I was in college, a prof once called me out publicly for not paying attention- because I was looking down at my notebook, taking notes. I told her I was paying attention, and read back part of her last section. She then decided that none of us should take notes, since we should be "engaging with her." Yes, it was a communications class, and I did do my part in discussion. But the problem is, I don't recall what I do not write. Literally, I write it, I remember it- I don't even have to read it later, the act of writing sort of engraves the information on my brain. But if I don't write it down, I lose about half of what's said.

Had to go notebook-less for the rest of that semester in that class, and I still begrudge her my C; I'd have had an A if she'd let me take notes.
 
2012-10-07 07:25:11 PM
I am fine with a student record a teacher's lecture so long as the teacher has given the okay in writing to the student and the student also in writing agrees to not use it for profit.

I could care less if the student shares the recording with friends so long as no money changes hand for the recording.
 
2012-10-07 07:27:24 PM

evaned: Owangotang: No no no, the real reason is because they don't want to have to rewrite tests and answer keys that they've used for the past however many semesters; at least it's the only motivation that makes even a tiny bit of sense.

That doesn't even make sense, except for perhaps the couple days when tests are returned or something.

I'd like to get a teaching (or maybe mostly-teaching) position at some presumably smaller college, and I don't fully understand it. The one thing that does make sense is the participation-dampening effect as FloydA and everlastinggobstopper noted, and that can be reason enough. But that's the only convincing reason I can come up with.


I actually saw the half-the-class failing thing happen in the first course at my institution that got into recording. And you are right, the faculty get blamed for the students not coming to class. We do actually provide notes for the classes online, so it's not the all-or-nothing thing some would like to imagine -- but that year's failure in that class was striking.

BumpInTheNight, I guess I'm flattered then. I've been a on Fark for possibly longer than FERPA's been around, and I used to teach younger students. So it may be that you made a note about something I've completely forgotten!

I agree with you about the logical disconnect. As is often the case when a prof. looks like he or she is doing something weird, there are some discrepancies between school policy and practical reality, which I navigate the best I can.

Je5tEr, I used to work at a private university that had the same rule you describe about ownership of things one did at home. Some companies also have this. My bf and I designed a new bike rack (of all things) and briefly considered trying to patent it before we realized we were both screwed in this exact way.
 
2012-10-07 07:27:29 PM
Allowing the students to record the lecture? Can't have that!

alum.mit.edu

Link to video
=Smidge=
 
2012-10-07 07:27:43 PM
Live Scribe Pulse Pen

Good for meetings in the real world too!
 
2012-10-07 07:38:28 PM
When I was in 12th grade, I had a paranoid teacher who thought that a student was audio recording her. I don't know why she thought that, but she freaked out. He had something on his desk she thought was recording. I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't a recorder. Also had another one in middle school who let it be known that she could not be photographed (something about her religion and the camera stealing her soul), which led to a student chasing her around the classroom with a camera. I felt sorry for her, anyhow . . .

The way I think about it is that the mind is recording all the time. Audio or video recorders just do a better job of it. Recording something that you're already privy to is different from say leaving an audio recorder in a place you're not supposed to be (a la George Costanza leaving the briefcase with a running audio recorder inside).

So my policy is: if you could hear it naturally, it's up for grabs. I think that's generally the rule for phone conversations in most states (1-party recording laws).

But times have definitely changed. When I was in school you would get suspended just for having a cell phone, even if you kept it in your locker. They associated it with drug deals for some reason.
 
2012-10-07 07:39:08 PM

Je5tEr: Wow. Usually I'm completely alone when I bring up my lack of note-taking. Nice to know I'm not the only oddball out there.


I do not take notes. My professors in earlier years once chided me for this, but from junior year on all of my instructors and classmates have recognized I pay attention far better without. Important dates for conferences and such, I obviously wrote down, but otherwise I had the same composition journal through two years which was rarely opened and nothing else.
 
2012-10-07 07:41:39 PM

Smidge204: Allowing the students to record the lecture? Can't have that!

[alum.mit.edu image 300x283]

Link to video
=Smidge=


Have started trying to utilize Khan Academy, for gifted students in particular, in my school due to the self-paced lectures and assessment. We need to make a transition to this format as much as is possible; the sheer amount I have learned or been able to review via the site is amazing, and the mathematics map is fantastic.
 
2012-10-07 07:44:18 PM

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.
2. Do wiretapping laws come into play? Is Michigan a two-party-consent state?
3. Similar to #2, I've been told if I intend to make a recording of my classroom, I should get written permission from all students' parents. If students wish to make a recording of me, they should get my permission.

Notice this isn't saying it's forbidden. Taping without knowledge and consent is what's forbidden.


Imagine a teacher reading aloud from Mark Twain, including the as-written repeated references to the "N****r Jim" character. Imagine a student putting together a video compilation, recorded on his iPhone, of that teacher repeatedly saying "N****g N****r N****r N****r" and posting it to YouTube.
 
2012-10-07 07:48:18 PM

propasaurus:

Imagine a teacher reading aloud from Mark Twain, including the as-written repeated references to the "N****r Jim" character. Imagine a student putting together a video compilation, recorded on his iPhone, of that teacher repeatedly saying "N****g N****r N****r N****r" and posting it to YouTube.



hahahaha I just had a vision of one of the Wilford Brimley diabeetus videos gone so very wrong.
 
2012-10-07 07:48:29 PM

kriegfusion: Count me in as one of the people who doesn't listen to the instructor when im writing down notes. OK Teacher, here's how it works with me: I either write, or listen. I don't do both, and if I try, I do poorly at both. The newer teachers I work with in community college are pretty cool. One of the older ones, and most older ones i've had the pleasure of studying under, screw this up. Especially if they suddenly discovered Powerpoint, and feel like skipping through 15 frames in about 15 minutes. Theres no way I can write all that down, let alone actually listen to what the fark you're actually saying.

If you demand I write notes, then just so you know, bub, I am not even attempting to listen to the lecture. I am writing notes. You can and should be replaced with a pink flamingo, for all the good you are doing as a teacher. Don't be such a luddite, and let people record if they want to. If they fail, it's on them.


The whiz-bang pace of those community college lectures really does get to some people...
Perhaps one of the skills you would learn (if you'd drop the confrontational attitude) is how to process information in real time. You might figure out how to discern what is worth writing down, and what isn't, and then you would have time to both listen and annotate the lectures. It would probably make you better at learning in general, in whichever field you might apply yourself...
 
2012-10-07 07:48:50 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


I call BS on this. Sure it is your IP, but just having a student record your lecture does not violate IP laws. What they do with that recording can violate IP laws, for example, if that student then tried to sell that lecture as an MP3 file on some website.

And that is a different issue, that if you were actually teaching students you could use to explain how IP laws work and how they protect content creators. Rather than hiding behind some faux argument and then try to justify it by saying 'it complicates things'.
 
2012-10-07 08:03:32 PM

Owangotang: Sure it does, kids sell recordings of a teacher going over a test or instantly grading a quiz and the teacher has to switch things up.


But how often does that happen? In college at least, exams usually happen once or twice a semester (not counting finals which doesn't have any classes after it); and even quizzes are rarely that often. Why not just prohibit recording those? And that's even granting that argument too much credit... if the tests are out there, you've already lost. (Though I guess some profs even will collect the exams back, which is pretty much BS but that's how things go.)

Students will either participate or they won't. The recordings have no impact; students that participate are more engaged and are going to remain more engaged even if they are recording the class.

We have two teachers who have stated evidence in contradiction to your assumption, and one person who has said that it seems natural. I make the latter count two. There are a variety of reasons that people could be uneasy with being recorded, and it is not even remotely hard for me to believe that there are people who would be less inclined to participate.

swingerofbirches: The way I think about it is that the mind is recording all the time. Audio or video recorders just do a better job of it.


Audio and video recording also provide hard evidence of what went on to third parties, which your memories do not at all. There is a big difference between the two worlds, and it's not just a matter of fidelity.
 
2012-10-07 08:03:39 PM

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


I also consider you wife to be my property, but that doesn't make it so.
 
2012-10-07 08:06:20 PM
If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission, and my doing it wouldn't be obvious to the professor.

You know who would be hurt by this?
.
.
.
.
.
.
no one.
 
2012-10-07 08:08:31 PM

hlehmann: I also consider you wife to be my property, but that doesn't make it so.


Producing course lectures requires a great deal of research and work. Just like a paper or presentation given at a professional conference. It is absolutely my intellectual property. In my syllabus I state that I personally allow my students to record my lectures, especially those with certain kinds of learning disabilities--as long as they don't try to sell/give them to others. But that is because I allow it--and any student caught violating that clause is disenrolled.
 
2012-10-07 08:09:01 PM

hudef: Good thing nobody uses tape recorders any more.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 493x427]


Back in the day,,,
Every 15 minutes, clackety bang, switch, snap.

/the sound of flipping tape

//wha's "tape"?
 
2012-10-07 08:10:03 PM

Girion47: If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission, and my doing it wouldn't be obvious to the professor.


Keep on thinking that. We in no way have any experience with people cheating. None whatsoever.
 
2012-10-07 08:11:50 PM

FloydA: The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online


I post slideshows online in Blackboard, but with no voiceover. Precisely so that students don't try to substitute them for coming to class.
 
2012-10-07 08:14:03 PM

AmbassadorBooze: Anything done by government employees should be viewable by the public.


You're welcome to watch me take a shiat in the bathroom next to the classrooms I use. But that's it. Anything else requires you to pay tuition.
 
2012-10-07 08:17:15 PM

Somacandra: Girion47: If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission, and my doing it wouldn't be obvious to the professor.

Keep on thinking that. We in no way have any experience with people cheating. None whatsoever.


Recording a lecture isn't "cheating"
 
2012-10-07 08:19:24 PM

Nmissi: Je5tEr: I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.

When I was in college, a prof once called me out publicly for not paying attention- because I was looking down at my notebook, taking notes. I told her I was paying attention, and read back part of her last section. She then decided that none of us should take notes, since we should be "engaging with her." Yes, it was a communications class, and I did do my part in discussion. But the problem is, I don't recall what I do not write. Literally, I write it, I remember it- I don't even have to read it later, the act of writing sort of engraves the information on my brain. But if I don't write it down, I lose about half of what's said.

Had to go notebook-less for the rest of that semester in that class, and I still begrudge her my C; I'd have had an A if she'd let me take notes.


A teacher isn't your boss. I know it sounds trite, but especially at a university, they work for you. Yes, they run the class, but I would have told the professor, sorry but this is what's best for me to do well in this class and I'm going to continue doing what I know works best for me. If she insisted, I would have to insist back. Sorry, prof, you're going to have to live with it. If, because of this, you want me out of your class, I guess I'll have to drop it because you're an asshole.
 
2012-10-07 08:20:39 PM

Somacandra: FloydA: The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online

I post slideshows online in Blackboard, but with no voiceover. Precisely so that students don't try to substitute them for coming to class.


What's the difference between the slideshow + voice over vs being in the class watching you talk and clicking next on the controller?
 
2012-10-07 08:20:42 PM

Somacandra: Girion47: If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission, and my doing it wouldn't be obvious to the professor.

Keep on thinking that. We in no way have any experience with people cheating. None whatsoever.


How does recording something to review later equate to cheating? Don't be ridiculous. And don't kid yourself that you couldn't be recorded without knowing it.
 
2012-10-07 08:23:09 PM

office_despot: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!


That IS a crazy attitude especially at the graduate level. Everyone in the institution wants a grad student to make it through with a degree, or else the program's ratings will suffer. I heard enough speeches from a university president to know that on-time graduation rates are about the only metric that institutions use, and I know enough profs to know that each successfully mentored grad is another notch on their belt.

Got most of a MS in GISc and five years after leaving the program they are still begging me to return to complete it. I keep telling them I'll do it if they revamp their student loan contracts so they can't unilaterally demand loan repayment while students are taking classes. Which they did to everyone in my program during the financial crisis.
 
2012-10-07 08:23:13 PM
I have an idea, why even have classes? Just post the recording of the lectures online, They can watch them whenever they feel like it, make it so students can take the quizes/tests anytime they feel like, bam 9 months of school shortened down to a few weeks.
 
2012-10-07 08:23:39 PM

Girion47: If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission


This.
 
2012-10-07 08:24:32 PM
I wear a very small Olympus recorder and record every lecture and make them available to any of my students.
Don't see what all the hub-bub is about.
We also chat about IP and copyrights and all that.
Not Pollyannish either.
There's nothing you can learn from anyone that comes from a deity so it's all in a book somewhere.
 
2012-10-07 08:27:26 PM

Somacandra: Girion47: If I were paying for a class and felt recording would help me pass, I would do so, with or without permission, and my doing it wouldn't be obvious to the professor.

Keep on thinking that. We in no way have any experience with people cheating. None whatsoever.


Between cell phones, mp3 players and a zillion other handheld portable electronics that can record, you honestly think you can pick up on one of them recording? My first mp3 player that I used to record lectures was the size of a pack of gum. I found I could have it in my T-shirt pocket and it would record just fine. Sit a few rows back, but towards the front of the class, and I got a good recording of what was being said. I seriously doubt you'd find that. Do you frisk everybody in the class then check all electronics you find to see if they are recording?

You think finding a passive recording device on somebodies person is the same as finding some way somebody is using for cheating? If you're that good at spotting somebody wearing a wire, you should be working for the mob, not for a college

You'd honestly try to get somebody over recording you? Get them suspended or expelled? Fail them? Over that petty crap?

Get over yourself. Seriously. You, and your lectures, are not that important.

Lighten up, Francis.
 
2012-10-07 08:30:30 PM
I had a prof, Dr. Bawa Singh, in college as an undergrad who did not allow any recordings in his class. This was back around 1969 or 1970, so any recording would be kind of obvious as it would be on cassette recorders. I cannot recall now what he said the consequences would be if anyone tried, but they were dire enough that no one ever tried.
 
2012-10-07 08:32:35 PM

office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.


But it's not your problem at all. They're in college. They're "adults" and it's 100% their problem. It's so "not fair" except that it totally is. Hell, one time I had this kid, I mean adult, come to me after the semester was over because he got a C and needed an A to keep his scholarship. Sorry, bud. I can't just give you an A because you ask for one and you should have come to me a long time ago. Your scholarship is not my problem, especially not now after the semester is over.
 
2012-10-07 08:38:46 PM

Aikidogamer: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

Most of my professors did exactly this.


When did you go to school? My first trip through college was in '94 and no school I visited penalized attendence as a policy. "You are old enough to make your own decisions, so while individual instructors may take attendence they won't lower your grade for missing class time" has been the mantra.

My second go-round the only one who kept attendence was the seriously ODC Latin instructor, who was the Dean of Admission for the school of medicine. If one student sat somewhere different he'd throw a hissy fit. He would also stop in mid-lesson to remove staples from the corkboard and needed everyone's socks to be straight with no wrinkles showing or he'd toss you out for the day.

Other profs cared about attendence but nobody else officially tracked it because it meant nothing.

/almost all my undergrad classes were seminar format anyway
 
2012-10-07 08:40:39 PM

jigger: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

But it's not your problem at all. They're in college. They're "adults" and it's 100% their problem. It's so "not fair" except that it totally is. Hell, one time I had this kid, I mean adult, come to me after the semester was over because he got a C and needed an A to keep his scholarship. Sorry, bud. I can't just give you an A because you ask for one and you should have come to me a long time ago. Your scholarship is not my problem, especially not now after the semester is over.


YOU go have that talk with my dean, then.
If half my >100-person class fails, it's my problem, trust me.
 
2012-10-07 08:53:50 PM

propasaurus: Imagine a teacher reading aloud from Mark Twain, including the as-written repeated references to the "N****r Jim" character. Imagine a student putting together a video compilation, recorded on his iPhone, of that teacher repeatedly saying "N****g N****r N****r N****r" and posting it to YouTube.


I would have to respect the EPIC trolling there...

swingerofbirches: Also had another one in middle school who let it be known that she could not be photographed (something about her religion and the camera stealing her soul), which led to a student chasing her around the classroom with a camera. I felt sorry for her, anyhow . . .


Don't, that is what happens when you give 12-14 year olds that kind of ammunition. Teachable moment there, to be sure.

office_despot: I used to work at a private university that had the same rule you describe about ownership of things one did at home. Some companies also have this. My bf and I designed a new bike rack (of all things) and briefly considered trying to patent it before we realized we were both screwed in this exact way.


I hate rules like this. For instance, if I was an IT guy and designed the next step forward in anti-material rifle, I could not patent it. Even though it has Fark all to do with computers. (correct me if I misunderstand this rule) This is garbage.
 
2012-10-07 08:55:21 PM

Aikidogamer: propasaurus: Imagine a teacher reading aloud from Mark Twain, including the as-written repeated references to the "N****r Jim" character. Imagine a student putting together a video compilation, recorded on his iPhone, of that teacher repeatedly saying "N****g N****r N****r N****r" and posting it to YouTube.

I would have to respect the EPIC trolling there...

swingerofbirches: Also had another one in middle school who let it be known that she could not be photographed (something about her religion and the camera stealing her soul), which led to a student chasing her around the classroom with a camera. I felt sorry for her, anyhow . . .

Don't, that is what happens when you give 12-14 year olds that kind of ammunition. Teachable moment there, to be sure.

office_despot: I used to work at a private university that had the same rule you describe about ownership of things one did at home. Some companies also have this. My bf and I designed a new bike rack (of all things) and briefly considered trying to patent it before we realized we were both screwed in this exact way.

I hate rules like this. For instance, if I was an IT guy and designed the next step forward in anti-material rifle, I could not patent it. Even though it has Fark all to do with computers. (correct me if I misunderstand this rule) This is garbage.


The company would have to prove that they provided you with the tools or inspiration for the invention, or that you worked on it, on company time.
 
2012-10-07 09:10:29 PM

office_despot: jigger: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

But it's not your problem at all. They're in college. They're "adults" and it's 100% their problem. It's so "not fair" except that it totally is. Hell, one time I had this kid, I mean adult, come to me after the semester was over because he got a C and needed an A to keep his scholarship. Sorry, bud. I can't just give you an A because you ask for one and you should have come to me a long time ago. Your scholarship is not my problem, especially not now after the semester is over.

YOU go have that talk with my dean, then.
If half my >100-person class fails, it's my problem, trust me.


If half your 100 person class is failing, it's probably not because of note-recording.

Listen profs, different people learn in different ways and, while some are great at taking notes while listening, others have for a long time preferred to be able to reference exactly what was said when studying later.

Furthermore, I understand the intellectual property issue but many of you provide frankly awful notes if the assumption is that we are going to be actively listening and learning during your lecture. I've gotten a BS and a medical degree and yearly I take lectures for CE and I would say a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins of what you provided while somehow absorbing what is being said. All of this under the false assumption that any of us who have trouble learning this way are somehow not interested in paying attention, when for many of us the opposite is true.

Stop trying to teach with the purpose of outwitting the lazy and stupid. You can't help those people anyway.
 
2012-10-07 09:11:31 PM

office_despot: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!


Need to keep up enrollment. Sales, sales, sales. Jaded from working for a University, in collections.

I say pad with an easy class in case you need to drop, grade withheld. If you need to maintain a minimun amount of credits for financial aid. Then it's easy.


/we are farked
 
2012-10-07 09:14:29 PM

office_despot: YOU go have that talk with my dean, then.
If half my >100-person class fails, it's my problem, trust me.


and that is a brutal problem with for-profit educational institutions, I saw the same bullshiat happen with my own class. First semester honestly 1/3 of the class failed out bigtime because well frankly they were goofing off or genuinely incapable of mastering the material yet the management pushed to some how keep them enrolled (cash!). It was disgusting to see these people continue further despite blatantly cheating or being completely under-capable of learning the content.
 
2012-10-07 09:19:44 PM

Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.


That's the entire purpose of exams, I thought.

/Dropping people for absences doesn't stop them from whining any more than giving them a C, either.
 
2012-10-07 09:25:32 PM

BolloxReader: When did you go to school? My first trip through college was in '94 and no school I visited penalized attendence as a policy. "You are old enough to make your own decisions, so while individual instructors may take attendence they won't lower your grade for missing class time" has been the mantra.


That's true of almost all classes in my experience, but there are some where class participation is a large part of the point of the class and you're required to not just be there but to participate.


tiamet4: ...a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins


As devil's advocate & future-professor-hopeful for a second: the complete notes are typically called "the textbook". :-)

(That said, how many times did I actually go through a textbook as a student? Not many.)
 
2012-10-07 09:29:32 PM

Girion47: Aikidogamer: propasaurus: Imagine a teacher reading aloud from Mark Twain, including the as-written repeated references to the "N****r Jim" character. Imagine a student putting together a video compilation, recorded on his iPhone, of that teacher repeatedly saying "N****g N****r N****r N****r" and posting it to YouTube.

I would have to respect the EPIC trolling there...

swingerofbirches: Also had another one in middle school who let it be known that she could not be photographed (something about her religion and the camera stealing her soul), which led to a student chasing her around the classroom with a camera. I felt sorry for her, anyhow . . .

Don't, that is what happens when you give 12-14 year olds that kind of ammunition. Teachable moment there, to be sure.

office_despot: I used to work at a private university that had the same rule you describe about ownership of things one did at home. Some companies also have this. My bf and I designed a new bike rack (of all things) and briefly considered trying to patent it before we realized we were both screwed in this exact way.

I hate rules like this. For instance, if I was an IT guy and designed the next step forward in anti-material rifle, I could not patent it. Even though it has Fark all to do with computers. (correct me if I misunderstand this rule) This is garbage.

The company would have to prove that they provided you with the tools or inspiration for the invention, or that you worked on it, on company time.


Many companies have a clause in your contract of employment that anything you invent is their property. Nothing to do with tools, inspiration etc.

Not sure how they'd stand up in court, but it could be very expensive if you have to find out....
 
2012-10-07 09:32:35 PM

Jumpthruhoops: Curses! Stupid having to remember which password to use and slowing down my post.


That's okay, I'm so late to the party the only thing I have to offer...

img6.imageshack.us


/how do you sit?
 
2012-10-07 09:36:59 PM
aikidogamer had it right: both my uni and his company had "all your IP are belong to us" clauses in the contracts. I personally thought it would be fun to file jointly for the patent just to see Giant Company and Rich University slug it out in court over who got a bigger share.
 
2012-10-07 09:40:04 PM
i teach students who pay $15,000-$20,000 per year in tuition to attend my university.

taping is not a problem. rather, the problem is students who take notes on their computers. Here's why: it's really obvious to me when you're on Facebook. most students will give in to checking their fantasy teams, the weather, watching TV, etc. while in lecture if they have a laptop in front of them. the same is true to a lesser extent with iPhones.

my best students come to class and take notes by hand on my handouts while paying attention because they are trying to listen for the key points and illustrations. in my experience the pleas on behalf of the students who can't listen and take notes at the same time are misplaced.
 
2012-10-07 09:42:57 PM
Heh- I both teach at a college and take occasional classes there for fun.

When I'm on the student side, I record all of the lectures on a smartpen. I'm auditing a music theory class right now and it's possibly the greatest tool ever created- I not only have my notes but I have the audio of the professor playing.

I encourage my students to do the same when I'm on the professor side. Anything that makes you better able to learn the material I'm all for. I'm sure I sound like an idiot some of the time- oh well, hazard of the profession.
 
2012-10-07 09:45:33 PM
The teachers should be forced to lecture naked as well, and probably be whipped in ten-minute intervals, just to drive home the point that they are there providing a service for the snowflakes who have better things to do than listen to the lecture.
 
2012-10-07 09:46:00 PM
As a college prof., this is a pretty interesting thread. I've never been approached about recording in one of my classes. I think that it would negatively affect my teaching if I knew about it, it would make me too self conscious. I have video taped lectures for the class at my home, but often stop part of the way through and redo parts to make them as good as possible.

I write the notes on the board (either on the white board or on the document camera) while giving the lecture. I do this because I often have several international students who wouldn't be able to keep up with a verbal lecture only. I don't take attendance, but I tell students that I won't repeat my lecture in my office. If a student shows up with a lot of questions that make it seem like they haven't been to class, I'll ask them to get out their notes so that we can go over them.

I know that students keep and pass on old tests (especially the greeks), so I put the old tests and keys online as study aids, so that everyone has an equal playing field. If I've changed how I teach something, I make notes of that or remove the question from the old tests.

About IP According to the faculty handbook at my school, I own the IP that I create. This is so that after I spend the time to create a class, another faculty member won't be able to take the material that I've spent time creating to teach the class (and get paid for it). I actually had this happen when another instructor was given a course that I developed to teach as an overload class (this would normally pay an extra $6,000). She had not taught the class before and would have to invest a lot of time to develop the class (homework, materials, lectures, etc.). This put both of us in an uncomfortable position. I had offered to teach it as an overload and she was being "punished" for not meeting her publishing requirements.
 
2012-10-07 09:54:02 PM

BumpInTheNight: Fizpez: Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.

So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?

Depends, did you pay for a ticket and did that ticket have lots of tiny writing on the back of it?


At a state college, if the document is created on state equipment, it's FOI-able.
 
2012-10-07 09:56:12 PM
Isn't one of the basic skills that students should be acquiring and refining in college, regardless of the subject matter at hand (which is rarely the subject matter in which said students are later employed or devote much time or effort after graduation), the ability to sit through a lecture and determine what were the salient points?

I personally would rather have that ability than all of the books in the world (incidentally, all of the books of the world are readily available, in libraries!).

It would be efficacious for students to spend an hour after each lecture going over their notes from the lecture and improving upon them. This enhances the learning process far more than "having a recording and listening to it again" would. I will grant that having the recording in addition would not be harmful in and of itself, but its possession would likely prevent a student from taking notes and revising them in the first place.
 
2012-10-07 09:58:02 PM

proteus_b: The teachers should be forced to lecture naked as well, and probably be whipped in ten-minute intervals, just to drive home the point that they are there providing a service for the snowflakes who have better things to do than listen to the lecture.


had some hysterical emails from parents of snowflakes this year, reminding me/the TA/the Dean that they were the paying customer, and that their satisfaction should take precedence.

i usually tell students/parents who drop the "paying customer" line that what they are paying for is access to my classroom, individual attention in my office hours, and most importantly an expert evaluation of the work submitted.

i'm pretty sure your doctor takes no pleasure in telling you that you're morbidly obese, and i'm sure you don't demand that he/she change his diagnosis because it hurts your feelings. i'm in pretty much the same position.
 
2012-10-07 10:03:45 PM

I have a pocket recorder I carry everywhere, it cost me $37.76 at Wal--Mart and is good for 112 hours of sound storage.

It is called an Olympus Note-Corder DP-201, and is about the size of a pack of cigarettes.

Push the button, stick it in your pocket, who is to know?

static.bhphoto.com
 
2012-10-07 10:03:53 PM

wildlifer: BumpInTheNight: Fizpez: Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.

So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?

Depends, did you pay for a ticket and did that ticket have lots of tiny writing on the back of it?

At a state college, if the document is created on state equipment, it's FOI-able.


and? I was merely attempting to shutdown an attempt to parallel that very valid concept with someone trying to suggest its the same as bootlegging a concert.
 
2012-10-07 10:04:40 PM

office_despot: aikidogamer had it right: both my uni and his company had "all your IP are belong to us" clauses in the contracts. I personally thought it would be fun to file jointly for the patent just to see Giant Company and Rich University slug it out in court over who got a bigger share.


LMAO...

That would be a
/popcorn
For sure!
 
2012-10-07 10:16:19 PM
In other news, college professors are an entitled bunch who frequently forget who's paying whom. Ric Romero brings you this exclusive hard-hitting exposé at 11!
 
2012-10-07 10:16:54 PM

Aikidogamer: I personally thought it would be fun to file jointly for the patent just to see Giant Company and Rich University slug it out in court over who got a bigger share.


That would be the lawyers, Bob.
 
2012-10-07 10:17:52 PM

ahasp:

I know that students keep and pass on old tests (especially the greeks), so I put the old tests and keys online as study aids, so that everyone has an equal playing field. If I've changed how I teach something, I make notes of that or remove the question from the old tests.


You mean that the greeks actually go to class? I figured that they would be too busy butt chugging booze!
 
2012-10-07 10:40:40 PM

evaned: BolloxReader: When did you go to school? My first trip through college was in '94 and no school I visited penalized attendence as a policy. "You are old enough to make your own decisions, so while individual instructors may take attendence they won't lower your grade for missing class time" has been the mantra.

That's true of almost all classes in my experience, but there are some where class participation is a large part of the point of the class and you're required to not just be there but to participate.


tiamet4: ...a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins

As devil's advocate & future-professor-hopeful for a second: the complete notes are typically called "the textbook". :-)

(That said, how many times did I actually go through a textbook as a student? Not many.)


Oh you mean those things that usually profit the professor since his name is on them and are never referenced in class and written in a way that interpretation on your own is nigh-impossible?

OOOO look, a new image for the chapter intros, we can claim new editions, not buy back the old ones, and scare the students into spending thousands more, yippee!!!
 
2012-10-07 10:42:18 PM
Most of my lectures for my degree course were recorded by the lecturers and put up for download on the university website. I thought this happened everywhere.
 
2012-10-07 10:44:17 PM

BumpInTheNight: Somacandra: FloydA: The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online

I post slideshows online in Blackboard, but with no voiceover. Precisely so that students don't try to substitute them for coming to class.

What's the difference between the slideshow + voice over vs being in the class watching you talk and clicking next on the controller?


If you're watching the slide show and voice over at home and you raise your hand to ask a question, I'm not coming to your house to answer it.

No lecture can possibly include all of the information that the professor knows. If you want to actually benefit from the class, the best way to do it is to ask the prof for further information when things aren't clear, or ask me to expand upon a topic that interests you. I don't know what you already know and don't know- my lectures are based on an estimate of what I expect most students know, but I am aware that each student is different. I teach the way that worked best for me when I was a student, but I'm not you. If the way that works best for you is different from the way that works best for me, come to class and ask questions, and I'll adjust my teaching style to accommodate you. I'm good at that.

But if you sit at home and just look at the slides and listen to the audio and then complain that I didn't teach in a way that accommodates your preferred learning style, well, there isn't much I can do about it. Tell me how you learn best, and I will teach the material in a way that is most effective in helping you understand it. But if you expect me to just "guess" how you learn, well, I already did- I guessed "slides and audio." If you want more than that, I recommend coming to class and asking me for it; I'll be glad to oblige. See you there. 

(Not "you" personally, I meant the generalized "you," of course.)
 
2012-10-07 10:48:35 PM

evaned: BolloxReader: When did you go to school? My first trip through college was in '94 and no school I visited penalized attendence as a policy. "You are old enough to make your own decisions, so while individual instructors may take attendence they won't lower your grade for missing class time" has been the mantra.

That's true of almost all classes in my experience, but there are some where class participation is a large part of the point of the class and you're required to not just be there but to participate.


tiamet4: ...a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins

As devil's advocate & future-professor-hopeful for a second: the complete notes are typically called "the textbook". :-)

(That said, how many times did I actually go through a textbook as a student? Not many.)


And the number of professors who tested on the textbook vs what was said in lecture...:-)

"Yes, there's an extensive 50 page textbook chapter which discusses the physiological basis for the procedure I'm about to describe. My recommended method, which is the one you'll want to refer to when you try this on your patients in a few years and which will be on the test is loosely outlined in a single 4 bullet-point slide. Now I'll verbally describe it in detail with pictures that I won't release due to my "intellectual property" rights. Get your pencils ready!..."
 
2012-10-07 10:49:22 PM

wildlifer: At a state college, if the document is created on state equipment, it's FOI-able.


This is so false it's hilarious.

When in the U.S., I kept students' grades on state-owned computers. No, you can't see them.


One of the big differences between an academic environment and a corporate environment is that my discoveries are my discoveries, not my boss's discoveries. The hordes of IT workers on Fark might not grasp that.
 
2012-10-07 11:06:17 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I was never a fan of recording lectures. I could listen to the same thing 10x in a row and not retain nearly as much of it as I would from listening once while taking notes/outlining key points.

I suppose recording the lecture and then taking notes from the recording so that you know you didn't miss anything could be useful, but I wonder how many students take that step. I'm all for using technology to help achieve better results, but just taking a photo of the board with notes and studying from that wouldn't have been nearly as helpful to me as actually physically writing those notes down.

Then again, different peoples' brains work differently.


That's what i did during nursing school. The lectures were recorded and posted online with the Powerpoints. I'd ask my questions during lecture, and then i would listen to the lectures later on to jot down any key points i missed.

It only makes sense to have it recorded when the technology makes it so easy to record the lectures.

Doing so ensures that every type if learning style is covered.
 
2012-10-07 11:08:49 PM

AmbassadorBooze: Anything done by government employees should be viewable by the public. Exceptions: private court proceedings, national security, sealed records, top secret clearance, etc. By making lectures private, it puts them on level with national security. Students and teachers are not on that level.

If you are on a public payroll, hold yourself up to a higher standard. Don't stop recording of lectures, just because you like to say or do wacky things in class that might be illegal.


Add to your list of exceptions most anything involving medical treatment.

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.


What we need to do here is change the law so that out of context quoting can be considered libel/slander.

office_despot: In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!


There are some. I once took a summer session 5-credit class. The teacher spent the entire first class period trying to convince us to drop as he didn't believe it could be taught in the summer session. He eventually did get me to drop because of his grading policy. At that point I had the fourth highest grade (of 120 students) in the class and yet I was one point from an F--the problem was his homework grading. Homework counted 0% for your final score except if your homework score was below 50% you failed. The homework wasn't all that hard except it was taken directly out of the book (so there was an answer key out there) and so he required us to show work--and it was much harder and more time consuming to figure out how to come up with enough work to show to make him happy. I simply didn't have enough time in the day to deal with this. (I had a long bus commute.)

Add to this that he had three TAs for the class. One was good, one was acceptable and one was awful. He divided us up into three basically equal groups but it was based on something only we knew (I forget what now, perhaps where we were sitting). Thus basically everyone who got the awful one switched to the good one, we were distributed about 90/30/0. He reassigned us based on a criteria he knew--you turn your homework in to the right TA or you get no credit. Idiot--didn't how we behaved tell you there was a problem?

Thisbymaster: I have an idea, why even have classes? Just post the recording of the lectures online, They can watch them whenever they feel like it, make it so students can take the quizes/tests anytime they feel like, bam 9 months of school shortened down to a few weeks.


You're not going to shorten the learning time all that much. Beyond that, though, I fully agree. There should be no lectures in a classroom. A VCR does a fine job of lecturing and it's an awful lot cheaper than a teacher. Use the humans for things the computer can't do--answering questions, helping students who are stuck.

ahasp: About IP According to the faculty handbook at my school, I own the IP that I create. This is so that after I spend the time to create a class, another faculty member won't be able to take the material that I've spent time creating to teach the class (and get paid for it). I actually had this happen when another instructor was given a course that I developed to teach as an overload class (this would normally pay an extra $6,000). She had not taught the class before and would have to invest a lot of time to develop the class (homework, materials, lectures, etc.). This put both of us in an uncomfortable position. I had offered to teach it as an overload and she was being "punished" for not meeting her publishing requirements.


I fully agree that you should own the IP. That doesn't make recording it wrong, though, it only makes it wrong if those recordings are then sold. I'd have no problem with you suing someone who did that.
 
2012-10-07 11:23:47 PM

FloydA: BumpInTheNight: Somacandra: FloydA: The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online

I post slideshows online in Blackboard, but with no voiceover. Precisely so that students don't try to substitute them for coming to class.

What's the difference between the slideshow + voice over vs being in the class watching you talk and clicking next on the controller?

If you're watching the slide show and voice over at home and you raise your hand to ask a question, I'm not coming to your house to answer it.

No lecture can possibly include all of the information that the professor knows. If you want to actually benefit from the class, the best way to do it is to ask the prof for further information when things aren't clear, or ask me to expand upon a topic that interests you. I don't know what you already know and don't know- my lectures are based on an estimate of what I expect most students know, but I am aware that each student is different. I teach the way that worked best for me when I was a student, but I'm not you. If the way that works best for you is different from the way that works best for me, come to class and ask questions, and I'll adjust my teaching style to accommodate you. I'm good at that.

But if you sit at home and just look at the slides and listen to the audio and then complain that I didn't teach in a way that accommodates your preferred learning style, well, there isn't much I can do about it. Tell me how you learn best, and I will teach the material in a way that is most effective in helping you understand it. But if you expect me to just "guess" how you learn, well, I already did- I guessed "slides and audio." If you want more than that, I recommend coming to class and asking me for it; I'll be glad to oblige. See you there. 

(Not "you" personally, I meant the generalized "you," of course.)


Email, get with it.
 
2012-10-07 11:35:09 PM

Loren: Add to this that he had three TAs for the class. One was good, one was acceptable and one was awful. He divided us up into three basically equal groups but it was based on something only we knew (I forget what now, perhaps where we were sitting). Thus basically everyone who got the awful one switched to the good one, we were distributed about 90/30/0. He reassigned us based on a criteria he knew--you turn your homework in to the right TA or you get no credit. Idiot--didn't how we behaved tell you there was a problem?


So, you decided it was you right to punish the best TA by making him do twice as much work as he was assigned? (I'll assume you meant 70/30/0.)

I prefer to teach early in the morning just so students don't transfer into my class. Extra grading is annoying.
 
2012-10-07 11:45:08 PM

Loren: There are some. I once took a summer session 5-credit class. The teacher spent the entire first class period trying to convince us to drop as he didn't believe it could be taught in the summer session. He eventually did get me to drop because of his grading policy. At that point I had the fourth highest grade (of 120 students) in the class and yet I was one point from an F--the problem was his homework grading. Homework counted 0% for your final score except if your homework score was below 50% you failed. The homework wasn't all that hard except it was taken directly out of the book (so there was an answer key out there) and so he required us to show work--and it was much harder and more time consuming to figure out how to come up with enough work to show to make him happy. I simply didn't have enough time in the day to deal with this. (I had a long bus commute.)

Add to this that he had three TAs for the class. One was good, one was acceptable and one was awful. He divided us up into three basically equal groups but it was based on something only we knew (I forget what now, perhaps where we were sitting). Thus basically everyone who got the awful one switched to the good one, we were distributed about 90/30/0. He reassigned us based on a criteria he knew--you turn your homework in to the right TA or you get no credit. Idiot--didn't how we behaved tell you there was a problem?


Wow, now that's some of the worst teaching I've seen in college.

The worst from my experience I can think of involved a Chinese TA teaching a freshman-level math class.

On the first day of class, he hands out the syllabus, and without further introduction or comment, about 2 or 3 minutes into the first class he gets up on the blackboard and starts putting up notes and example problems. He's throwing them up lightning fast. We're struggling to copy it all down, amazed at his high rate he was presenting information and a little intimidated. His English was also heavily accented.

When he finishes filling the blackboards about 10 minutes later, he turns around and in thickly accented English says "Any Questions?"

More than a dozen hands go up. . .and he responds with "Good!" as he goes over and starts erasing his old notes and starts putting more up, ignoring the students wanting clarification. About 15 minutes later, literally halfway into the class he's filled the blackboards a second time. Everyone in the class has been frantically copying notes, and filled more than one page by this time. Now he turns around and goes "Do you understand?" in the same accented speech.

"No!" call out two dozen voices. He pauses for a moment and goes "Good!". . .and starts throwing up more notes. Halfway into the first class of the semester and we all had cramps in our hands from the constant writing to copy down the notes and example problems he was throwing up. He was mumbling explanations in what I think was supposed to be English the whole time, but nobody could make it out, his only way of communicating to us was in those written notes.

This entire mockery played out for the rest of the class, and for every future class like this that semester. I was taking Japanese. My classmates saw my textbook and asked if I could talk to him, since he didn't understand English. I had to sadly point out that Japanese and Chinese are quite different and mutually totally incomprehensible as spoken languages.

Exams for that class were standardized by the University, since it was a major common class that most students needed to graduate. I got about a 40%. Of the 10 problems on there, 2 were for things that in his huge mess of notes he didn't even cover, and 2 were for things he only briefly touched upon. He had us do vast amounts of work on things that weren't on the test. Nobody in the class passed. Not a soul.

I dropped the class after that exam. Most of the class did, except for people who would be thrown out of the dorms for dropping below full-time status.
 
2012-10-07 11:52:35 PM

Girion47: Oh you mean those things that usually profit the professor since his name is on them and are never referenced in class and written in a way that interpretation on your own is nigh-impossible?


I think the textbook biz is a huge racket so you're preaching to the choir with some of what you say. However, I don't think I've ever had a class where the prof was an author, so never hit that scenario. I could actually theoretically see myself writing enough that I could put it out there as a book, but if I do so it will at least be freely available to my students -- I don't like the conflict of interest. [For anyone who missed, I'm not a prof, but aspiring to be.] Somewhat likely, it'd just be some Creative Commons work. Textbook authors don't actually get all that much from them anyway; it's mostly the publishers. (The class I've taught a couple times has had notes written by previous profs that I hijacked and modified.)

But that said... most classes I've taken, the textbook has been at least relevant. It's more a matter of whether the class makes it redundant or not, so whether I felt the need to actually go look at it. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. (Incidentally, making the book relevant to the course I'd guess is one of the main reasons that people write textbooks.)
 
2012-10-07 11:55:10 PM
I teach online via webcam, so all of my lectures are recorded--both video and audio. I don't find that it makes me any more self-conscious than lecturing in a classroom. Students can attend, so they can ask questions in real-time, but students who aren't able to attend can listen to the recording later. I'm not sure how many of them do, but considering how often I see my examples pop up in their papers, I imagine it's quite a few. I still manage to make a lot of jokes and talk about a lot of controversial stuff (I teach psychology) without issue.
 
2012-10-08 12:10:04 AM
I once took a writing class where the teacher insisted we use typewriters instead of word processors. She refused to accept anything from a dot matrix printer (even a 24 pin with good print). So I downloaded a typewriter font and she was perfectly happy thinking it came from a typewriter. Stupid.

Then I took a word processing class where the teacher insisted on using only keyboard commands and not using the mouse. I turned on the menu's (20 years ago) and used the mouse and was told to turn off the menu's and not use the mouse. I don't think she knew how to use the mouse.

Another college professor insisted on teaching incorrect information about computer processor specifications. You simply couldn't get him to understand the real specifications. A friend of mine insisted on writing down the correct answers and he failed the test. I just wrote what the teacher wanted and moved on.

Lesson was that many college professors are afraid of technology, don't understand it, don't want to understand it, and won't accept it because they have tenure and are only a few years from retirement so what do they care?
 
2012-10-08 01:05:22 AM
I had a professor from Russia teaching the first level calculus class. A tape recording wouldn't have done me any good since I couldn't understand a damn thing he was saying anyway.
 
2012-10-08 01:10:09 AM
As someone relatively close to all of this, my understanding of the situation:

Copyright law is intended to protect people's creative expression. A professor (or their employing institution) owns the copyright to their lectures, because making lectures involves a lot of choices about how to present and teach the material. The lecture is that person's expression of the facts, and is protected. A transcript, recording, or note-taking of that lecture are all derivative works of that lecture (i.e. they do not involve creative expression on the part of the student, they are merely reproductions) and thus the professor has a copyright on those things as well. The students can use their own personal notes/recordings for their own edification under the doctrine of fair use, but could run into problems if they distribute those notes- particularly if they profit from the distribution or if they were to substantially effect the merchantability of the professor's lectures. In other words- you can't sell the professor's work for your own profit and you can't distribute it so freely that people could just get your notes and not have to take the class.

Realistically, I don't think most people around here are that concerned about their copyright. For one, at this institution, the university owns the rights to most things you produce (copyright or patent) if the university equipment is necessary or if you do it on university time. The flip side to that is then the university is responsible for monetizing anything they have the rights to, and the originators get %47 of the return for doing nothing. (That is, if you write a textbook or patent an invention, the university is responsible for making money on those things and protecting your copyrights/patents. They own the rights, but they're obligated to pay you a substantial portion of what they make on it.) All in all, not a terribly bad deal when you consider the cost of monetizing a good idea involves lots of publishers, printers, manufacturers, lawyers, and a host of other costs.

Every academic publication I've ever seen (academic conferences, journals, etc.) require you to assign the copyright to the publication for a variety of reasons. There has been some backlash against this recently, so I know a few journals that will allow you to keep your copyright but charge pretty steep publication fees instead. Even if you retain the copyright, they require that you give them the right to redistribute, so the only real reason to do this would be if you want your work to always be available without cost, rather than requiring a subscription. This is pretty moot to me, as these publications almost always allow you to reserve the right to self-publish on your personal website.

With respect to lecture material, I do know a few people who put copyright notices and DO NOT DISTRIBUTE on class materials and lecture slides. Sometimes this is done out of necessity, such as when you're using someone else's material yourself you probably don't have the permission to re-distribute.

Frankly, a lot of this really depends on the situation. If I'm teaching 101-level stuff that has a dozen (or more) textbooks that cover the material I don't really care if you video tape and broadcast it over the world. Once you get into the advanced topics (graduate classes particularly) it's very possible that there are zero textbooks written on the subject material, and it's very possible that the professor is one of the handful of people in the world that would be able to write one. In that kind of situation, that professor's interpretation of the material is an incredibly rare and valuable resource (forming one basis of their employability, in fact), and I would be very reluctant to give someone unrestricted permission to copy and redistribute that material. There are a lot of almost-bright-enough-but-not-quite PhD's who would love to write a book on a topic but just aren't up to par- and it'd be very tempting to go online and get a few recordings of the preeminent scholars' classes, throw them through a grinder and make some money on whatever comes out the other side.

I'm far less concerned about undergrads and graduate students making copies for their own use. I don't allow laptops in the classroom, however, as they're invariably far more distracting to everyone else than they are useful to the people using them.
 
2012-10-08 01:13:19 AM

NetOwl: Loren: Add to this that he had three TAs for the class. One was good, one was acceptable and one was awful. He divided us up into three basically equal groups but it was based on something only we knew (I forget what now, perhaps where we were sitting). Thus basically everyone who got the awful one switched to the good one, we were distributed about 90/30/0. He reassigned us based on a criteria he knew--you turn your homework in to the right TA or you get no credit. Idiot--didn't how we behaved tell you there was a problem?

So, you decided it was you right to punish the best TA by making him do twice as much work as he was assigned? (I'll assume you meant 70/30/0.)

I prefer to teach early in the morning just so students don't transfer into my class. Extra grading is annoying.


We weren't punishing the best TA, we were simply trying to get someone we could understand. And 90/30/0 was right--that was the number of students, not percentages.

Silverstaff:
Wow, now that's some of the worst teaching I've seen in college.


I saw worse.

The worst from my experience I can think of involved a Chinese TA teaching a freshman-level math class.

On the first day of class, he hands out the syllabus, and without further introduction or comment, about 2 or 3 minutes into the first class he gets up on the blackboard and starts putting up notes and example problems. He's throwing them up lightning fast. We're struggling to copy it all down, amazed at his high rate he was presenting information and a little intimidated. His English was also heavily accented.

When he finishes filling the blackboards about 10 minutes later, he turns around and in thickly accented English says "Any Questions?"

More than a dozen hands go up. . .and he responds with "Good!" as he goes over and starts erasing his old notes and starts putting more up, ignoring the students wanting clarification. About 15 minutes later, literally halfway into the class he's filled the blackboards a second time. Everyone in the class has been frantically copying notes, and filled more than one page by this time. Now he turns around and goes "Do you understand?" in the same accented speech.


My experience with accented Chinese teachers was a little different: The guy's accent & grammar was so bad that I often couldn't understand him in realtime--I could either figure out what the last sentence meant or listen to the current one, I couldn't do both. (Note: At the time I was involved with a Chinese woman so new to English that most meaningful communication involved the use of the dictionary.)

Not being able to understand him wasn't actually that important as he had almost nothing worth saying anyway. This was a 400-level class. His lecture was so confusing that he got asked a very elementary question--anyone who had passed a 100-level course should have been able to answer it. He rambled back to his lecture without ever actually answering the question. The question was repeated, same result. The question came once again, this time another student gave a reasonably good one word answer. I can't recall hearing another question all semester.

The second hardest part of the class was remembering what wrong answers to put down, the hardest part was when the next question was to defend your answer to the previous question that needed a wrong answer. Once I got completely stumped by one of those proof questions and so I resorted to putting down the correct answer along with an example of an actual system that worked like I said. (An analogy as the actual details are too technical: Q: Do lawn mowers require gasoline engines? (He expects a yes.) A: No. Q: Why? A: Sears sells a lawn mower model XXX with an electric engine.) Of course I didn't get credit.

davemchine: I once took a writing class where the teacher insisted we use typewriters instead of word processors. She refused to accept anything from a dot matrix printer (even a 24 pin with good print). So I downloaded a typewriter font and she was perfectly happy thinking it came from a typewriter. Stupid.


I had multiple teachers that said no printers--they didn't like 9-pin dot matrix. None of them ever realized my "typewritten" stuff was actually coming off a daisy wheel printer.

Then I took a word processing class where the teacher insisted on using only keyboard commands and not using the mouse. I turned on the menu's (20 years ago) and used the mouse and was told to turn off the menu's and not use the mouse. I don't think she knew how to use the mouse.

If you're doing it a lot the keyboard commands very often are faster to use once you've learned them.

Lesson was that many college professors are afraid of technology, don't understand it, don't want to understand it, and won't accept it because they have tenure and are only a few years from retirement so what do they care?

Yup--I was a lab assistant in college. Once we ran a bunch of teachers through the computer literacy class--what a joke! The only group that ever did worse was the hispanic outreach program that was bringing in a bunch of students who had no business inside a college classroom.

To compound it the teachers absolutely wouldn't accept that us students knew more about the subject matter than they did. Never mind that everyone on duty then knew far more than the actual job requirements and had enough experience doing it that we could usually tell you exactly what had been done wrong to get the bad output--in that regard we were far ahead of the teacher. He knew the stuff but lacked the experience in the trenches to diagnose the problem without seeing them do it. The teacher quickly caught on to the fact that our answers were right despite our apparent lack of data--he would go to someone who needed help, listen to our 10-second description of the problem and then explain it, then run off to the next person needing help. Despite this not a one of them would respond to us at all, it was like we didn't exist.
 
2012-10-08 01:18:16 AM

davemchine: Then I took a word processing class where the teacher insisted on using only keyboard commands and not using the mouse. I turned on the menu's (20 years ago) and used the mouse and was told to turn off the menu's and not use the mouse. I don't think she knew how to use the mouse.


If part of your class was typing as well as general word processing, it very well may have been intentional. Keyboard commands are orders of magnitude faster than mouse commands, so if you're doing a job that requires a lot of complex typing (i.e. not just data entry or diction) it really pays off to know your text editor's keyboard functions.
 
2012-10-08 01:29:02 AM

Fubini: A transcript, recording, or note-taking of that lecture are all derivative works of that lecture (i.e. they do not involve creative expression on the part of the student, they are merely reproductions) and thus the professor has a copyright on those things as well.


So I only have a GED in law, but two points: I don't think that a lack of creative expression is relevant to the derivative works issue -- a creative derivative work is still derivative. Second, AFAIK a copyright holder doesn't get copyrights of derivative works -- they can just restrict such derivative work creation/distribution. The author of a creative derivative work will still own the copyright to that work, but just won't be able to do anything with it without permission until the copyright on the original expires.
 
2012-10-08 01:37:44 AM

Fubini: If part of your class was typing as well as general word processing, it very well may have been intentional. Keyboard commands are orders of magnitude faster than mouse commands, so if you're doing a job that requires a lot of complex typing (i.e. not just data entry or diction) it really pays off to know your text editor's keyboard functions.


So before getting into this, to establish my keyboarding credentials, I do most of my work in Emacs, on Linux, with a tiling window manager that doesn't even show me window borders. :-)

With that out of the way: (1) What you say is only somewhat true. There's something a little like Amdahl's law that applies: if you only use a function once or twice month or something like that, the speedup you can get my memorizing the keyboard shortcut is basically nil. You'll probably spend more time memorizing it than you'll save by using it, especially because it's exactly the "I use this once a month" type of things that are the hardest to remember. (2) Having the menus around makes it possible and easy to explore around a bit to see what sorts of things the software can do. It also provides one of the best ways of learning what the shortcut keys are in the first place. (3) I really feel that it's possibly not the instructor's business. Maybe it would be for a couple weeks of "today you learn keyboard use" classes, but beyond that, the teacher's job is to give you tools.
 
2012-10-08 02:07:19 AM

Loren: What we need to do here is change the law so that out of context quoting can be considered libel/slander.


I would be ok with this provided the mechanism to prove it does not turn the process into guilty until innocent.
 
2012-10-08 02:33:46 AM

tiamet4: Furthermore, I understand the intellectual property issue but many of you provide frankly awful notes if the assumption is that we are going to be actively listening and learning during your lecture. I've gotten a BS and a medical degree and yearly I take lectures for CE and I would say a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins of what you provided while somehow absorbing what is being said.


If you think a lecture is a method of acquiring information then either you or your teachers have got something very wrong.
 
2012-10-08 02:52:09 AM

proteus_b: kriegfusion: Count me in as one of the people who doesn't listen to the instructor when im writing down notes. OK Teacher, here's how it works with me: I either write, or listen. I don't do both, and if I try, I do poorly at both. The newer teachers I work with in community college are pretty cool. One of the older ones, and most older ones i've had the pleasure of studying under, screw this up. Especially if they suddenly discovered Powerpoint, and feel like skipping through 15 frames in about 15 minutes. Theres no way I can write all that down, let alone actually listen to what the fark you're actually saying.

If you demand I write notes, then just so you know, bub, I am not even attempting to listen to the lecture. I am writing notes. You can and should be replaced with a pink flamingo, for all the good you are doing as a teacher. Don't be such a luddite, and let people record if they want to. If they fail, it's on them.

The whiz-bang pace of those community college lectures really does get to some people...
Perhaps one of the skills you would learn (if you'd drop the confrontational attitude) is how to process information in real time. You might figure out how to discern what is worth writing down, and what isn't, and then you would have time to both listen and annotate the lectures. It would probably make you better at learning in general, in whichever field you might apply yourself...


Light jab about community college speed aside, I think this may very well be true. My writing comes across sometimes as confrontational, but I simply wish to get to the crux of the matter quickly and normally don't flower the language, initially at first. I am actually eager to hear alternate viewpoints, such as yours.
I think I process information in real time fairly well, however writing and listening at the same time is what gets me, and as someone said earlier, i've gotten into trouble by not taking notes. I've failed classes where I didn't listen to the lecture, and i've failed when I didn't read. Its hard to find the middle ground, because each teacher leans more on lecture or books, and it alternates teacher to teacher.
Another part is simply, I hate the fact that we have to go to school to get a degree to get a job. I naturally LOVE learning. I hate that its even graded the way it is. I'd rather meet with several professors and discuss what i've learned at the end of the semester, and let them pass/fail me. Ive failed tests because my memory is crap, but I understood the material very well. I've asked people who've gotten A's on the test about the particular chapters, subjects, and wanted to go into detail to make conversation, but i've gotten deer in headlights looks from them; I honestly got way more out of it than they did.
I simply feel that nearly everything is worth writing down, because I find teachers, and lectures, immensely interesting. I simply feel robbed and cheated when I have to write so much, and can't enjoy the lecturer, I guess is what it comes down to.
I will focus on your suggestion tomorrow and see what comes of it. Thank you P.
 
2012-10-08 03:02:51 AM
If you have an IEP with an accommodation to use a smart phone or a recording device in school because of ADD or another learning disability, federal laws and the ADA (in college) allow you to do this. It's not negotiable, and if they don't comply, it's grounds for a lawsuit and an injunction.
 
2012-10-08 06:37:08 AM

orbister: tiamet4: Furthermore, I understand the intellectual property issue but many of you provide frankly awful notes if the assumption is that we are going to be actively listening and learning during your lecture. I've gotten a BS and a medical degree and yearly I take lectures for CE and I would say a good 65% of you provide notes that are a sparse outline of what you intend to cover and we are somehow expected to scramble to write down in detail what you say off the cuff in the margins of what you provided while somehow absorbing what is being said.

If you think a lecture is a method of acquiring information then either you or your teachers have got something very wrong.


Then why have them? I'd much rather stay in bed if we've been doing it wrong all these years.
 
2012-10-08 08:04:49 AM

kriegfusion: proteus_b: kriegfusion: Count me in as one of the people who doesn't listen to the instructor when im writing down notes. OK Teacher, here's how it works with me: I either write, or listen. I don't do both, and if I try, I do poorly at both. The newer teachers I work with in community college are pretty cool. One of the older ones, and most older ones i've had the pleasure of studying under, screw this up. Especially if they suddenly discovered Powerpoint, and feel like skipping through 15 frames in about 15 minutes. Theres no way I can write all that down, let alone actually listen to what the fark you're actually saying.

If you demand I write notes, then just so you know, bub, I am not even attempting to listen to the lecture. I am writing notes. You can and should be replaced with a pink flamingo, for all the good you are doing as a teacher. Don't be such a luddite, and let people record if they want to. If they fail, it's on them.

The whiz-bang pace of those community college lectures really does get to some people...
Perhaps one of the skills you would learn (if you'd drop the confrontational attitude) is how to process information in real time. You might figure out how to discern what is worth writing down, and what isn't, and then you would have time to both listen and annotate the lectures. It would probably make you better at learning in general, in whichever field you might apply yourself...

Light jab about community college speed aside, I think this may very well be true. My writing comes across sometimes as confrontational, but I simply wish to get to the crux of the matter quickly and normally don't flower the language, initially at first. I am actually eager to hear alternate viewpoints, such as yours.
I think I process information in real time fairly well, however writing and listening at the same time is what gets me, and as someone said earlier, i've gotten into trouble by not taking notes. I've failed classes where I didn't listen to the lecture ...


It's funny you say that. I can go through a test, get an A, and then not be able to tell you one question from that test 10 minutes later. If I really had to, I could remember an image of that page of notes and recite from that, the factoid you want to know. But as far as knowing it as more than a mental image, chances are about 50/50.

testing is flawed.
 
2012-10-08 08:20:46 AM
A lecture is intellectual property? Gee, who would have thought there are professors out there who have a pompous degree of self importance?
 
2012-10-08 08:26:00 AM
If they are too lazy to take notes, chances are that they are too lazy to go back and listen to the recordings they made. That being said, I would rather have them recording me by pressing one button than typing on a keyboard during the entire class.

Main question I hate, "Will this be on the test?"
 
2012-10-08 10:37:01 AM
"Interesting"? Is there no tag for "Flat-Out Retarded"?
 
2012-10-08 11:08:27 AM
userserve-ak.last.fm

Dave Murray, article author, enjoys his recordings being listened to over and over...
 
2012-10-08 11:12:33 AM
Huh. And the students are bound by a contract that they neither signed nor had any opportunity to negotiate. What a bunch of bullshiat.

Teachers' unions suck, too. Individual teachers are mostly okay by me.
 
2012-10-08 11:53:31 AM
What backwards, podunk school do these kids go to? Out here (in college, at least) taping the lectures is not only okay, but encouraged by teachers. They certainly don't want you to miss anything!
 
2012-10-08 12:30:02 PM
As high as tuition is these days you should be able to sit there with your own camcorder and court reporter.
 
2012-10-08 03:18:07 PM

myrrh:
Teachers' unions suck, too. Individual teachers are mostly okay by me.


Without the teachers' unions, those individual teachers get ruthlessly screwed over.
 
2012-10-08 03:46:34 PM

davemchine: Then I took a word processing class


and you are mocking the intelligence of others....
 
2012-10-08 03:54:38 PM

kriegfusion: I simply feel that nearly everything is worth writing down, because I find teachers, and lectures, immensely interesting. I simply feel robbed and cheated when I have to write so much, and can't enjoy the lecturer, I guess is what it comes down to.


Well then, I appreciate your devotion (and the good nature in which you accepted my rebuke), but I still think that you will, in time, learn to sort through what is, and what isn't, essential. In a well-prepared lecture, this will be easier to do, in a rambling ill-prepared lecture, this may be nearly impossible.

Perhaps you might try making just the absolute minimal notes during the lecture, and then try to improve upon them afterwards. In this way, you will still be able to "enjoy the lecture", but you will hopefully be keeping a reminder for the future. One caveat----in my opinion, there is a difference between active and passive listening, and if you are enjoying the lecture and "understanding it while it goes on, but not able to recall it immediately afterwards", then you have merely passively attended the lecture, and likely have not learned anything. The act of trying to take notes, however minimal, can make that process active, and it will be even easier for you to recall things afterwards. Try it, what have you got to lose? Best of luck :)
 
2012-10-08 07:49:50 PM

FloydA:

Without the teachers' unions, those individual teachers get ruthlessly screwed over.


And with them, the students and parents do.
 
2012-10-08 09:03:54 PM

myrrh: FloydA:

Without the teachers' unions, those individual teachers get ruthlessly screwed over.

And with them, the students and parents do.


But too long without them, the students (less so the parents) do as well, as you make it too hard for good teachers to stay.

I'll be the first to admit that unions in general and teachers' unions in particular aren't perfect, but I also don't think that not having them would lead to better outcomes for anyone.
 
2012-10-08 10:35:01 PM

Je5tEr: So because someone doesn't have an eidetic memory you are going to arbitrarily restrict their ability to accurately reference what was said in a lecture. I don't know about you but when I turn my attention to taking notes I invariably miss other content in the lecture due to the interruption in focus.

I swear teachers these days are idiots.


B-b-b-b-but it's all about the kids!! The most important thing is that they are properly educated! Oh, no wait, scratch that. It's to make paranoid teachers feel better.
 
Displayed 181 of 181 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report