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(MLive.com)   Should students be allowed to tape lectures on their phones? Teacher contract forbids the practice   (mlive.com) divider line 181
    More: Interesting, University of New York, Graduate School of Journalism, lessons  
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7498 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Oct 2012 at 5:43 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-07 02:54:56 PM  
as a teacher, i do not like it, but some students do it anyway.
 
2012-10-07 03:00:58 PM  
Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.
 
2012-10-07 03:06:12 PM  
Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.
 
2012-10-07 03:23:42 PM  
I used to encourage my students to record my lectures if that made things easier for them, on the condition that they gave me a copy. Then a few years ago, I had a student whose physical condition made it difficult for him to take written notes, and I finally broke down and bought a digital recorder for myself and started posting the recordings on the class website. I like this better for two reasons; (1) the audio quality is much better, and (2) the directional mic doesn't pick up student questions, which is good. A student who is nervous about speaking up in class might be even more nervous if s/he is being recorded, so the classroom recording by other students tended to have a slight dampening effect on participation (I haven't quantified that and have no evidence to back it up, but it just feels that way).

(The weird thing for me is the students who snap pictures of the slides I show, because I also post the slideshows online. Why are you wasting your phone's batteries to get a crappy image of a slide that's already available to you? Makes no damned sense to me.)
 
2012-10-07 03:34:23 PM  
Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP
 
2012-10-07 04:14:47 PM  
Unless the contract specifically defines the word 'record', the snippet in TFA would seem to prohibit students taking notes.
 
2012-10-07 04:40:30 PM  
My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.
 
2012-10-07 05:47:36 PM  

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.
 
2012-10-07 05:48:48 PM  

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


You might have an argument in two-party consent states, but otherwise, yeah I don't see how that would hold up.
 
2012-10-07 05:49:39 PM  

Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.


So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?
 
2012-10-07 05:49:44 PM  

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


You might want to return your GED in Law.
 
2012-10-07 05:50:05 PM  

Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.


Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.
 
2012-10-07 05:50:31 PM  

dahmers love zombie: My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.


Makes sense. Hell back in the early 80's when I was in college there were students with cassette recorders in class. You could also subscribe to a note taking service. Students who had taken the class previously and got good grades would audit the class and take notes which were then for sale.
 
2012-10-07 05:51:05 PM  
FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).
 
2012-10-07 05:51:31 PM  
My takeaway from this whole thing was that a student was using Google to find out what polio is.
If the anti-vaxers had their way, kids would know without having to look it up. I'm better with them having to look it up, frankly.

/End threadjack
 
2012-10-07 05:52:34 PM  
i291.photobucket.com

/stop touching yourself
 
2012-10-07 05:52:41 PM  
Good thing nobody uses tape recorders any more.

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-07 05:54:38 PM  

endosymbiont: FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).


Just to clarify in case anyone misunderstands, MGL 272 §99 is the general wiretapping law here, which may be read on recording in a classroom, but isn't specific to it. Also, it's not sure that it would apply, since it's likely that recording a lecture would not be done "secretly", which is required under the statute.
 
2012-10-07 05:55:07 PM  
soundstudies.files.wordpress.com
This is still ok, right?
 
2012-10-07 05:55:16 PM  
Anything done by government employees should be viewable by the public. Exceptions: private court proceedings, national security, sealed records, top secret clearance, etc. By making lectures private, it puts them on level with national security. Students and teachers are not on that level.

If you are on a public payroll, hold yourself up to a higher standard. Don't stop recording of lectures, just because you like to say or do wacky things in class that might be illegal.
 
2012-10-07 05:55:25 PM  
So because someone doesn't have an eidetic memory you are going to arbitrarily restrict their ability to accurately reference what was said in a lecture. I don't know about you but when I turn my attention to taking notes I invariably miss other content in the lecture due to the interruption in focus.

I swear teachers these days are idiots.
 
2012-10-07 05:56:16 PM  
Curses! Stupid having to remember which password to use and slowing down my post.
 
2012-10-07 05:57:53 PM  

Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.


1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.
2. Do wiretapping laws come into play? Is Michigan a two-party-consent state?
3. Similar to #2, I've been told if I intend to make a recording of my classroom, I should get written permission from all students' parents. If students wish to make a recording of me, they should get my permission.

Notice this isn't saying it's forbidden. Taping without knowledge and consent is what's forbidden.
 
2012-10-07 05:58:21 PM  

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


Assuming a public school, how is your taxpayer funded lecture, based on a curriculum developed by public employees, not a work for hire?
 
2012-10-07 06:01:34 PM  

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in... laws... I intend to make .... students... get my... forbidden... knowledge...


O.o
 
2012-10-07 06:05:50 PM  

Fizpez: Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.

So if I go to a concert and record the show then try to market and sell it I shouldnt have any problems?


Depends, did you pay for a ticket and did that ticket have lots of tiny writing on the back of it?
 
2012-10-07 06:07:03 PM  

BizarreMan: dahmers love zombie: My policy is that students may record, but may not use for any other purpose than their own study. If they sell them, they have to do a contract with the school.

Makes sense. Hell back in the early 80's when I was in college there were students with cassette recorders in class. You could also subscribe to a note taking service. Students who had taken the class previously and got good grades would audit the class and take notes which were then for sale.


Still somewhat exists with Koofer's but honestly, the kinds of students that pay for notes are the ones that then only half-study the evening before an exam and get an A. I liken it to someone who would skip class and try to google the information, even if the notes are good, there's no in-class context to them or motivation to study the information.
 
2012-10-07 06:07:57 PM  
The students who record my records are usually ESL students who need more time to digest what I say.

I have had one student come to me after a test and say they had me recorded mis-stating something that caused them to incorrectly answer a test question. I told them that I had also correctly stated that same thing a dozen times, so why did they focus on the one time I erred? They didn't get the 2 points back.
 
2012-10-07 06:08:47 PM  
Uh ..."record my lectures"...
 
2012-10-07 06:09:03 PM  
I wouldn't teach in today's environment without being recorded, and preferably videotaped.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:31 PM  
I agree with not allowing kids in public schools to record the lecture. Let them use pen (or pencil) and paper (or parchment) to take notes. As for private institutions, let them set whatever policy they want. If you do not agree with it then do not attend that particular school.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:33 PM  

RminusQ: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

1. I have no interest in getting the Andrew Breitbart / James O'Keefe treatment.
2. Do wiretapping laws come into play? Is Michigan a two-party-consent state?
3. Similar to #2, I've been told if I intend to make a recording of my classroom, I should get written permission from all students' parents. If students wish to make a recording of me, they should get my permission.

Notice this isn't saying it's forbidden. Taping without knowledge and consent is what's forbidden.


So, since the other students could be recorded, it a student wants to make a recording of the class, they should get written permission from all the students' parents?

I'm serious, I'm not being a wise-ass.
 
2012-10-07 06:10:36 PM  

BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.


Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:35 PM  

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Temescal: Why don't you like it? I'm genuinely curious.

Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things.


I didn't think of that. I guess I work in an industry where whatever I come up with during the course of my employment automatically becomes company property, including IP.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:43 PM  
I was never a fan of recording lectures. I could listen to the same thing 10x in a row and not retain nearly as much of it as I would from listening once while taking notes/outlining key points.

I suppose recording the lecture and then taking notes from the recording so that you know you didn't miss anything could be useful, but I wonder how many students take that step. I'm all for using technology to help achieve better results, but just taking a photo of the board with notes and studying from that wouldn't have been nearly as helpful to me as actually physically writing those notes down.

Then again, different peoples' brains work differently.
 
2012-10-07 06:11:45 PM  
Can't do it in CA without teacher approval, either.
 
2012-10-07 06:14:04 PM  
Teachers are just like cops. You should go to jail for recording them.
 
2012-10-07 06:15:21 PM  

office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.


If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.
 
2012-10-07 06:15:48 PM  

Thanks for the Meme-ries: [i291.photobucket.com image 300x169]

/stop touching yourself


Heh. First thing I thought of as well.
 
2012-10-07 06:16:22 PM  

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


For some reason I have you farkied as 'once tracked down a student's parents to tell them about their kid skipping his class'. Imagine that.
 
2012-10-07 06:17:07 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: I was never a fan of recording lectures. I could listen to the same thing 10x in a row and not retain nearly as much of it as I would from listening once while taking notes/outlining key points.

I suppose recording the lecture and then taking notes from the recording so that you know you didn't miss anything could be useful, but I wonder how many students take that step. I'm all for using technology to help achieve better results, but just taking a photo of the board with notes and studying from that wouldn't have been nearly as helpful to me as actually physically writing those notes down.

Then again, different peoples' brains work differently.


Most people are like that.* Once you make a list, you're not going to forget what was on the list nearly as easily just because you went through the act of focusing for a second and writing it down.

*APA style citation
 
2012-10-07 06:18:20 PM  

ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP


If the teacher has no knowledge of the recording, how can he make any attempt to have it become his property?
 
2012-10-07 06:19:34 PM  

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


I never recorded a teacher either, but I always got in trouble for not taking notes. I learned early on I was much better off by not taking notes than diverting my attention from the teacher to write something down and then return my focus to the lecture. I still don't take notes, and it gets me all sorts of negativity at work, even though I can quote nearly everything of importance that was said in any meeting I'm forced to suffer through.
 
2012-10-07 06:21:31 PM  

Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.


I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!
 
2012-10-07 06:22:39 PM  

Nem Wan: ArkAngel: Any records made without the knowledge and permission of the teacher shall become the property of the teacher.

I don't see how this is legal. Any record made is the property of the person who made it, i.e. the student. A contract between the teachers and the school can't affect the student's IP

The students aren't a party to the contract anyway.


I guess when the student signed up for the school they are expected to follow the rules in place. As long as they are informed, the student doesn't have much choice.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:05 PM  

office_despot: BunkyBrewman: Bunch of bullshiat. Students have been recording professor lectures for decades.

The teachers have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a classroom.

Legally, anyone has a reasonable expectation to not be recorded if they request not to be (and they haven't agreed to it in some kind of contract previously). This is why, when you make something like a customer service call, they have to tell you if the call is being recorded. The exception to this is a warrant, of course.

I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

You know, all the time I was in school I never recorded a teacher. I took notes. With, you know, a pen. It's a skill every student should have. Especially since the act of writing it down helps you remember it.


Yep and blind people need to learn how to see.

It's a useful skill every student should have.

Oh, hearing damage, tough, learn the skill. It's a useful skill to have.

Fearful, stuck in the past Teachers like you are not useful any more. Well, we do need daycare workers.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:25 PM  

Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.


Most of my professors did exactly this.
 
2012-10-07 06:25:40 PM  

Theaetetus: endosymbiont: FWIW, some states will have applicable wiretapping laws. While the practical consequences (none) may render the point moot, it's one part of the equation. Here in Massachusetts, Ch. 272, s. 99, makes it a crime to record someone talking in a classroom (teacher or other student) if some conditions aren't met (like knowledge and consent, I think).

Just to clarify in case anyone misunderstands, MGL 272 §99 is the general wiretapping law here, which may be read on recording in a classroom, but isn't specific to it. Also, it's not sure that it would apply, since it's likely that recording a lecture would not be done "secretly", which is required under the statute.


I had a class taught by a judge once and a couple of months in when she realized that many students were recording on their laptops, she read us the riot act. She told us that we were all committing a crime. So, in at least her courtroom, the statute would read on the activity. But I agree with your more grounded interpretation.
 
2012-10-07 06:26:25 PM  

Don't Tongue the Reaper!: Can't speak for some beer drinker, but most of us consider our lectures our intellectual property. It complicates things


True, like when I create a new medical record for a patient I am the copyright holder, but the patient has a right to have the information in the chart.
 
2012-10-07 06:26:26 PM  

office_despot: Theaetetus: office_despot: I am a prof. and request not to be recorded. "Why?" you ask. Because if I allowed recording, I would have one person in class making an .mp3 for the other 100 don't want to get out of bed. What happens in this case is that ~50 of those people decide to listen to 15 lectures for the first time the night before the exam, and then they fail. And then getting their grade up before the end of the semester is somehow _my_ problem.

If only there were some way of keeping track of who shows up to class and who doesn't, and writing off the ones who miss, say, three classes. I guess it's impossible, though.

I teach at a pretty advanced level. Taking attendance on people over 21 is ridiculous. I don't make people ask permission to go to the bathroom, either.

There have been some electronic efforts to take attendance but they haven't worked so far.

In all seriousness... I know students believe that professors "are trying" to fail them. This is 99% crazy-untrue. I personally would like everyone to have an "A" at the end of the semester. So come to class, be an active listener, and take notes!


Those over 21 should probably understand by then that they are only wasting their money if they aren't doing whatever it is that they need to do to get the most out of what they are paying to take your class(es).
 
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