DYI: Ithinkweshoulddoawaywiththatpeskyspacebar.Seriously,thinkaboutallthes p acewecouldsaveifwedidn'tuseit!

I the same way about verbs. I they not so necessary.

I'm never able to get ALT+F4 to work as designed. I heard it only works on old versions of Windows -- it was always handy. Do the new versions of Windows use it?

/ Casting...
// OK, so 2000...

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks.

flaminio: NumLock is useful, mostly for turning the numbers back on when someone turns them off.

If they did away with the key you wouldn't ever need to undo the stupidity. It was a fine idea when we didn't have dedicated directional keys. But that was 2 generations (people generations, not computer generations) ago. The key could just go away and whatever 87-year-old is still using it on his 87-key-keyboard can deal with it for the benefit of literally every other computer user.

Plant Rights Activist: surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. The most worthless and sadistically evil key in existence.

Well, it does make using PC keyboards on Macs easier...
(I once had a Model M hooked up, and got by with remapping Ctrl->Alt, Alt->Cmd and CapsLock->Ctrl)

/and yay, another modifier key. Great for some editors or window management functions.
//Only thing I use it under Windows is Win+R and Win-[arrow keys]

mhd: Well, it does make using PC keyboards on Macs easier...
(I once had a Model M hooked up, and got by with remapping Ctrl->Alt, Alt->Cmd and CapsLock->Ctrl)

FYI: In modern OS X you can remap the modifiers without even leaving the GUI (and you if you're willing to type things there are various remappings available under the default driver all the way back to 10.2).

Why do people continue to insist on linking to NYTimes articles, when 99.95% of people viewing the link lack the subscription to view the article?

I, for one, would welcome a Fark-wide ban on any website that is behind a paywall.

profplump: FYI: In modern OS X you can remap the modifiers without even leaving the GUI

That's what I did. My Model M escapade was fairly recent (10.5ish), after I finally broke my Extended II keyboard.

I'm still perplexed that some people that aren't Fortran programmers actually use the CapsLock key enough to warrant such a prominent location.

goatleggedfellow: Get rid of the damn Insert key!

This. You accidentally bump it, and then spend the next 30 seconds trying to figure out WTF is wrong with your keyboard.

Escape gets me out of fullscreen and I use it. Unless I get stuck in Firefox fullscreen, in which case I throw my computer on the ground and go buy a new one.

and OMG so much THIS.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: I'd like to try to learn Dvorak, myself. I'm a touch typist, but I've heard many times that Dvorak is better, once you learn it. I'm reluctant to change my keybindings, in case I get lost and might have trouble getting back, but there are Dvorak keyboards out there that I could try.

If you use Windows, you can remap your keyboard to Dvorak quite easily. Just go to "Regions and Languages". When I lived in France and was typing a lot of email in two different languages, I had it set up so that three quick presses on the Shift key automatically switched from ENG to FR and back.

BTW, I bit the bullet and learned the Dvorak keyboard also about 10 years ago. It's marginally less work for your fingers, because so many words can be typed on the home row, but it's not really significantly faster in my experience. Maybe if you already type 100wpm or something, you might see some improvement from efficiency, but it's a pointless exercise for most people if you already know QWERTY.

Incredible that journalists are getting so lazy (and/or stupid) that they can't even do a 0.25 second google...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_character#ASCII_escape_character

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascii

D1551D3N7: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks.

Something doesn't jibe with your answer. A responsible, thinking grown-up wouldn't need to ask what a number pad is for.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks.

Something doesn't jibe with your answer. A responsible, thinking grown-up wouldn't need to ask what a number pad is for.

I'm still waiting on those onion rings.

A responsible thinking adult would see this is a thread about darwin'ed keys on keyboards and how the number pad's purpose can easily be shifted to a dedicated num-pad USB input for accountants and data entry specialists, thus allowing keyboards to hack off a third of their desk real-estate at penalty to no one.

profplump: flaminio: NumLock is useful, mostly for turning the numbers back on when someone turns them off.

If they did away with the key you wouldn't ever need to undo the stupidity. It was a fine idea when we didn't have dedicated directional keys. But that was 2 generations (people generations, not computer generations) ago. The key could just go away and whatever 87-year-old is still using it on his 87-key-keyboard can deal with it for the benefit of literally every other computer user.

You're better than this. I know you are, because I've seen you be better than this. You're just insulting yourself with this petty snipe. I'm not going to burn up a lot of keyboard detailing what's wrong with what you've said, but I believe you're smart enough to figure it out yourself. At least, I hope you are, because I honestly like you, even when you disappoint me at times like this.

Z-clipped: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: I'd like to try to learn Dvorak, myself. I'm a touch typist, but I've heard many times that Dvorak is better, once you learn it. I'm reluctant to change my keybindings, in case I get lost and might have trouble getting back, but there are Dvorak keyboards out there that I could try.

If you use Windows, you can remap your keyboard to Dvorak quite easily. Just go to "Regions and Languages". When I lived in France and was typing a lot of email in two different languages, I had it set up so that three quick presses on the Shift key automatically switched from ENG to FR and back.

BTW, I bit the bullet and learned the Dvorak keyboard also about 10 years ago. It's marginally less work for your fingers, because so many words can be typed on the home row, but it's not really significantly faster in my experience. Maybe if you already type 100wpm or something, you might see some improvement from efficiency, but it's a pointless exercise for most people if you already know QWERTY.

Thank you. You probably saved me some needless hardship. The way some people talk about it, Dvorak is a panacea for anyone who wants to type a lot, and I often do. I'm a QWERTY touch-typist, rated to around 45 wpm in an official test (of about, um, fifteen years ago). In reality, it varies a lot, but I think I'm usually under that. And yeah, I really don't want to learn a new method, if the one I already know is good enough.

I use mostly Linux. but also work with Windows a lot. I haven't used Mac much since OS7 or thereabouts. (The transparent cube era.) In respect to keybindings, though specific controls will vary, I feel sure they're all about the same with that.

geezergeek: Incredible that journalists are getting so lazy (and/or stupid) that they can't even do a 0.25 second google...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_character#ASCII_escape_character

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascii

I agree, but not that specifically. This seems like a culture-wide phenomenon at this point. People just can't be bothered to look stuff up for themselves, but are happy to project their ignorant assumptions or puzzlement, as if that shouldn't be embarrassing, or ask a roomful of online strangers instead, as if that might be a more credible source. I don't know if it's just laziness, or, in the latter case, if it's people's apparent (and to me, inexplicable) addiction to social interaction, or what. But at this point, disappointing as it is, it's no longer suprising that people just don't look things up.

Quantum Apostrophe: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks.

Something doesn't jibe with your answer. A responsible, thinking grown-up wouldn't need to ask what a number pad is for.

Seriously. Never seen a calculator or a telephone?

Come on. You're smarter than that, aren't you?

Big Merl: As an Excel user, they can have my scroll lock key when they pry it from my cold dead hands. Also, insert is pretty handy when you work with the same cover sheets every day. What I would like is dedicated copy/cut/paste buttons above the number pad.

Well, I normally use CTRL+C/V, so that's two keys, nearly as good. I really wouldn't want to junk up the keyboard too much, but I get where you're coming from.

BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks.

Something doesn't jibe with your answer. A responsible, thinking grown-up wouldn't need to ask what a number pad is for.

I'm still waiting on those onion rings.

A responsible thinking adult would see this is a thread about darwin'ed keys on keyboards and how the number pad's purpose can easily be shifted to a dedicated num-pad USB input for accountants and data entry specialists, thus allowing keyboards to hack off a third of their desk real-estate at penalty to no one.

Kid, if you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd be ten times as clever as you really are. I don't often say this, but you're not merely being an ass here: you're actually just plain wrong.

Mikey1969: But computers look different now - they're like smartphones. It will be interesting to see whether in 10 or 15 years the whole idea of a keyboard will seem strange. We might be saying, "Remember when we used to type things?"

Oh, FFS, THIS crap again? Look, we're going to use keyboards. How else are we going to get data into the computer? Mind melds? Voice recognition is still flaky, nobody wants an office full of people screaming(more) at their computers, and I can type data into my laptop right now, sitting in bed watching TV without waking up my wife. I can also type in a public place, or while watching TV without disturbing everyone around me.

What about touchscreens, you say? Well, nobody wants to type on a flat piece of glass for any length of time. People who enter data with any regularity want a keyboard with tactile keys, they want their fingertips to fit into the scallops on top, they want to be able to touch type. With no physical keys for response, people won't be able to touch type for shiat.

Face it, the keyboard isn't going anywhere. The alternatives are nice for emails, texts and web searches, but for serious data entry of any kind, a physical keyboard is still the way to go. They may change in design, but they'll still be keyboards. Same goes for the mouse. As old as it is, it's still a pretty intuitive and accurate form of input. If you want to go the pure touchscreen route, you're going to need a stylus to get the precision even a cheap mouse can offer. Our fingers are just too fat. You'd think someone who typed blogs, supposedly for a living, would understand all of this.

As for the 'Escape' key, I use it all of the time. I use it when I expand a video to full screen, and I use it in gaming, just to name a few. I'm with the person upthread; If you're going to get rid of any key, get rid of the farking 'Insert' key, I don't know the last time I used it, except for when the default 'Insert' feature accidentally gets turned off. If the stupid key ...

This.

As someone who's forged a meager supplementary income from writing, trying to write at length on a touchscreen or through voice recognition software would be a nightmare. As you said, the tactile response from the keyboard is a tool in and of itself. Most (if not all) people who type want that.

As for voice recognition; even if it is perfected at some point, I've found the act of physically typing something out is a tool in terms of composition. Perhaps it's just a personal quirk of mine, but, I find it easier to compose a sentence by typing it out physically as opposed to speaking it out. People don't speak using the same language they do when they type and I suspect there may be some sort of gap to bridge there, which requires some extra effort. Of course, a quick glance at any message board shows there are people whose minds work exclusively in the confines of the 'text speak' grammar graveyard.

I've toyed with voice recognition software, and beyond the bugs, I find it far more difficult to find the right words and rearrange the structure of a sentence (or paragraph) if I'm not hammering away at the keys. There's a lot of rearranging and experimentation going on when I write and it's an effortless process on a keyboard. Voice recognition software feels like an unnecessary step in that process.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Kid, if you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd be ten times as clever as you really are. I don't often say this, but you're not merely being an ass here: you're actually just plain wrong.

You are now farkied as 'keyboard hipster' :P

Big Merl: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Big Merl: As an Excel user, they can have my scroll lock key when they pry it from my cold dead hands. Also, insert is pretty handy when you work with the same cover sheets every day. What I would like is dedicated copy/cut/paste buttons above the number pad.

Well, I normally use CTRL+C/V, so that's two keys, nearly as good. I really wouldn't want to junk up the keyboard too much, but I get where you're coming from.

I frequently have one hand on the number pad and the other on the mouse, perhaps I could get a gaming mouse and bind some keys... To the it department!

Hmm. I feel sure there should be a keybinding workaround. Maybe one of the F-keys? Most operating systems should allow that, though the game, as an application, might assign its own. But I'd assume that any it doesn't will default to the OS settings, and you should be able to reassign those without interfering with the game. INS would be an obvious one-finger choice for 'paste'. Depending on your layout, any other nearby key might be a good candidate for 'copy'.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Hmm. I feel sure there should be a keybinding workaround.

Remap some keys when the NumLock is off. + to copy, - cut, enter paste. Should be pretty trivial with something like AutoHotKey.

BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Kid, if you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd be ten times as clever as you really are. I don't often say this, but you're not merely being an ass here: you're actually just plain wrong.

You are now farkied as 'keyboard hipster' :P

No, hipsters are way cooler than I'll ever be. I know that because I used to live in a city full of them, and it was obvious they didn't think I was cool. S'okay, though, we got along anyway, more or less. Well, except in the truly uber-cool settings, but that's okay, too; everyone needs their own space, after all. I wasn't impressed, but I didn't hold it against them, and I doubt they judged me, either.

What I did learn over the years, though, is that the world is a huge* and weird and wonderful place, and there is no such thing as objective normality. That's a lesson that I think everone needs to learn and embrace, because it seems to me that that assumption of normality is key to an awful lot of needless unpleasantness in the world.

* It's also extremely tiny, and that's very important for all of us to appreciate, too.

mhd: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Hmm. I feel sure there should be a keybinding workaround.

Remap some keys when the NumLock is off. + to copy, - cut, enter paste. Should be pretty trivial with something like AutoHotKey.

Yes, that's better than what I suggested. Of course, to do that, we'll need to have the number pad and NumLock key that were already declared extraneous in this thread as useless legacy baggage that only old stupid people want. But perhaps those claims were shortsighted.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Kid, if you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd be ten times as clever as you really are. I don't often say this, but you're not merely being an ass here: you're actually just plain wrong.

You are now farkied as 'keyboard hipster' :P

No, hipsters are way cooler than I'll ever be. I know that because I used to live in a city full of them, and it was obvious they didn't think I was cool. S'okay, though, we got along anyway, more or less. Well, except in the truly uber-cool settings, but that's okay, too; everyone needs their own space, after all. I wasn't impressed, but I didn't hold it against them, and I doubt they judged me, either.

What I did learn over the years, though, is that the world is a huge* and weird and wonderful place, and there is no such thing as objective normality. That's a lesson that I think everone needs to learn and embrace, because it seems to me that that assumption of normality is key to an awful lot of needless unpleasantness in the world.

* It's also extremely tiny, and that's very important for all of us to appreciate, too.

'keyboard snob'?

I really want to embrace the 'insists some obscure concept is critical yet can't be bothered to explain themself yet goes to great lengths to berate anyone who 'doesn't get it''.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Of course, to do that, we'll need to have the number pad and NumLock key that were already declared extraneous in this thread as useless legacy baggage that only old stupid people want. But perhaps those claims were shortsighted.

Well, I think I saw some kind of prototype keyboard where you could arrange buttons on a conductive base plate, so you still have proper haptic feedback, but touchscreen-like freedom. And, speaking of touchscreens, there were those PowerBook replacement keyboards that basically were one big touchpad. I think Apple bought them and the technology is now in their mobile devices.
Sun keyboards did have dedicated Copy/Paste keys in two rows left of the main area.

And there are some copy/paste versions using just mouse keys, from extra buttons, to the Unix version of every select being a copy and the middle mouse button (remember that?) used to paste. The Plan 9 OS used "mouse chords" to copy/past, so e.g. while selecting something with your left mouse button, it was cut if you pressed the middle button at the same time, and pressing the left and right pasted it.

Extra keys don't hurt. Useless keys do, so remapping is always a good option. The main reason for removing keys would probably be less distance between your right hand and your mouse, so switching back and forth doesn't require so much movement.

TimeCubeFan: LemSkroob: cman: Ahh, the escape key. Last time it held any sort of relevancy was in a 1994 film called The Net

for autoCAD is an essential command. In fact, my left ring finder sits over the ESC by default when i am drafting.

Same here, and for other 3D modeling and drafting software I use. It's handy to unselect objects without fear they will be part of the selection set of the next command. Funny I never thought about it as a default left-hand position, but I do the same as you.


Yeah, its a safety measure. always have to close the last command before starting a new one. Its reflex, i dont even notice doing it. it just happens.

BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Kid, if you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd be ten times as clever as you really are. I don't often say this, but you're not merely being an ass here: you're actually just plain wrong.

You are now farkied as 'keyboard hipster' :P

No, hipsters are way cooler than I'll ever be. I know that because I used to live in a city full of them, and it was obvious they didn't think I was cool. S'okay, though, we got along anyway, more or less. Well, except in the truly uber-cool settings, but that's okay, too; everyone needs their own space, after all. I wasn't impressed, but I didn't hold it against them, and I doubt they judged me, either.

What I did learn over the years, though, is that the world is a huge* and weird and wonderful place, and there is no such thing as objective normality. That's a lesson that I think everone needs to learn and embrace, because it seems to me that that assumption of normality is key to an awful lot of needless unpleasantness in the world.

* It's also extremely tiny, and that's very important for all of us to appreciate, too.

'keyboard snob'?

I really want to embrace the 'insists some obscure concept is critical yet can't be bothered to explain themself yet goes to great lengths to berate anyone who 'doesn't get it''.

You're trying hard to insult me or hurt my feelings, but you're using the wrong approach. For starters, I mostly ignore anything that's poorly written, so I suggest working on that.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: You're trying hard to insult me or hurt my feelings, but you're using the wrong approach. For starters, I mostly ignore anything that's poorly written, so I suggest working on that.

Yes, clearly I'm the one focused on insults rather then carrying a conversation forward in this thread.
/howtoannoyenglishmajors.jpg

LemSkroob: cman: Ahh, the escape key. Last time it held any sort of relevancy was in a 1994 film called The Net

for autoCAD is an essential command. In fact, my left ring finder sits over the ESC by default when i am drafting.

THIS

BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: You're trying hard to insult me or hurt my feelings, but you're using the wrong approach. For starters, I mostly ignore anything that's poorly written, so I suggest working on that.

Yes, clearly I'm the one focused on insults rather then carrying a conversation forward in this thread.
/howtoannoyenglishmajors.jpg

Yeah, well, actually that's kind of true. If you go back over the thread, you mostly just toss out passive-agressive insults. Which is a very Canadian thing to do, I understand that. I'm a New Englander, and I've been to Canada a bunch of times, so I'm familiar with this. And I have to say, it gets tired fast. Here, we just tell it like it is, for better or worse. You're making of ass out of yourself, starting with assuming that your normality is or should be everyone else's, that what doesn't make sense to you doesn't make sense objectively, and so on. That's a very common conceit of young people who haven't seen enough of the rest of the world yet. I mean, what goes through your head when you hear Americans jeer at milk in a bag and say it's stupid? See what I'm getting at?

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: BumpInTheNight: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: You're trying hard to insult me or hurt my feelings, but you're using the wrong approach. For starters, I mostly ignore anything that's poorly written, so I suggest working on that.

Yes, clearly I'm the one focused on insults rather then carrying a conversation forward in this thread.
/howtoannoyenglishmajors.jpg

Yeah, well, actually that's kind of true. If you go back over the thread, you mostly just toss out passive-agressive insults. Which is a very Canadian thing to do, I understand that. I'm a New Englander, and I've been to Canada a bunch of times, so I'm familiar with this. And I have to say, it gets tired fast. Here, we just tell it like it is, for better or worse. You're making of ass out of yourself, starting with assuming that your normality is or should be everyone else's, that what doesn't make sense to you doesn't make sense objectively, and so on. That's a very common conceit of young people who haven't seen enough of the rest of the world yet. I mean, what goes through your head when you hear Americans jeer at milk in a bag and say it's stupid? See what I'm getting at?

ohyourseriousletmelaughharder.jpg

D1551D3N7: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: D1551D3N7: Can someone explain what the numpad is for? The numbers are already above the letters why waste space on more numbers?

"I've never had a real job. Can anyone tell?"

I've worked every day of my life and have worked helluva lot harder than you ever will. I merely asked a question. No need for rude remarks. 

well, for the argument i didn't see the question answered:

the num pad exists to serve accountants, one of the primary early consumers of home pcs, and the key-arrangements they're accustomed to. in ages yet older than that, there were even keyboards with 0-9 keys for each digit of a number so someone could for example use 4 fingers and type 44.95 simultaneously. long story short, the reason is the numbers above the letters aren't arranged in a way convenient for people who are entering a lot of numbers.

now why now knowing that is supposed to symbolize you don't work hard, i don't get. there's a hell of a lot of ditch-diggers who don't know the ways of the white collar office.

Quantum Apostrophe: cman: Ahh, the escape key. Last time it held any sort of relevancy was in a 1994 film called The Net

Or when I worked at UPS and they used an AS/400 networked to a bunch of PCs. Pressing ESC twice gave me access to the supervisor or whatever it was called. I was able to reboot workstations at random and send messages to all, etc. The IT bigwigs came up from Paramus to interrogate me since it was "impossible" to do what I did...

Real fun being had here since, I thought my work was the only one in exsistance still using as400.

fatkidinabeenie: I thought my work was the only one in exsistance still using as400.

A lot of places are, actually, as the hardware is pretty close to indestructible, and technology decisions are still being made by people who live by the maxim "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" from 30 years ago.

It maybe the only poot_rootbeer: fatkidinabeenie: I thought my work was the only one in exsistance still using as400.

A lot of places are, actually, as the hardware is pretty close to indestructible, and technology decisions are still being made by people who live by the maxim "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" from 30 years ago.

It just maybe the only system that will still run our billing software also.

Plant Rights Activist: [hight3ch.com image 400x261]

surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. The most worthless and sadistically evil key in existence.

I use it all the time for launching apps and shutting down my machine.