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(Telegraph)   Suck it, haters - the UK's socialized health system only let 43 people starve to death in their hospitals last year. And the number who died of thirst? Only 111. And if granny's in hospital, she'll usually be fed. Half the time. Luxury   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 185
    More: Fail, Patients Association, health system, Office for National Statistics, public inquiry, Royal College of Physicians, death certificates, care homes, malnutrition  
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2281 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Oct 2012 at 2:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-07 03:31:08 PM

MyRandomName: Via Infinito: That is truly awful, subs.

Certainly far worse than the 45,000 people dying in America each year because they don't have health insurance.

LOL, using a 19 year old study that doesn't take into account new drugs such as Liptor to lower deaths, then extrapolating that to current models...

Hilarious what liberals believe.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/06/20/new-estimate-on- d eaths-among-uninsured-is-actually-19-years-old/


Actual link:

Link

Actual quote from link:

"If anything, available data seem to point to this estimate being low."
 
2012-10-07 03:31:35 PM
If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.
 
2012-10-07 03:32:28 PM

SN1987a goes boom: So when people suffer in socialized medical hospitals its evil, but when people are made to suffer as a rule in hospices run by Mother Theresa's nuns then its a miracle?

/Don't act like the OMG SOCIALIZIZMS crowd think poorly of MT.


When people suffer in America's hospitals, it's because the free market hasn't yet kicked in to correct everything, and that's almost always because Obama soshalist. But once we get his college transcripts everything will get corrected.
 
2012-10-07 03:32:28 PM
It's always British Healthcare. How come they don't ever use Germany's health system or France's?
 
2012-10-07 03:33:04 PM

crab66: Spartapuss: The competitive market would drive those prices down. This is pretty simple stuff, really.


Yeah it works great in the US.

I can choose to be raped in the ass by dozens of different insurance providers.


The other concerns were legitimate if a bit short sighted, lazy or slightly antagonistic but this is just something else. We aren't talking about Insurance providers, I'm on a hypothetical healthcare provider.
 
2012-10-07 03:33:30 PM
I prefer the system we use in Canada. I pay taxes and am a citizen, therefore I'm covered under public insurance. It covers standard yearly checkups and all emergency care, as well as maternity, and specialists if I get a referal. The yearly cleaning at the dentist isn't covered, but if I knock a tooth out the emergency room will refer me to a dentist to have it put back in if possible. And I can always buy insurance on my own or through benefits at work to cover things like glasses, the dentist, etc.
On the other hand when I took a trip to the states in high school we were warned to buy travel insurance because we were going mountain climbing, and if you broke your leg and had to be helicoptered out to a hospital, it would end up costing about $15K.
 
2012-10-07 03:34:49 PM
Don't you love how critics of single-payer always trot out these stats, but fail to compare them with the American numbers? It's like complaining about your electric car without acknowledging that gas is $45 a gallon.
 
2012-10-07 03:34:50 PM
30 thousand preventable deaths by infection in US hopsitals:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/12/AR201 0 071204893.html

US Preventable Deaths Worse than France, UK and Germany:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120829171947.htm

98 Thousand Preventable Deaths in US Hospitals Yearly:

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/wach/98k-preventable-hospital-d e aths/

195 Thousand Deaths from Medical Error/Malpractice Yearly:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php

That took about 10 seconds of work.

So, you wanna go for Double Jeopardy, where the scores can really change?
 
2012-10-07 03:35:49 PM
I used to trundle out examples of the failures in a health care system too and then you just have to realize.

Whatever type of system you believe in you also know that system is going to have problems.

Then again if 150 people died of thirst and hunger in the American health care system liberals would go absolutely nuclear so maybe I should get back to pointing out the failures of the 'better' health care systems.
 
2012-10-07 03:39:00 PM
When people think single payor healthcare in the US is going to look just like it does now, with the only difference is that it is free, I facepalm.

The UK has 2 levels of care -- the kind you pay for, and the kind you don't. I welcome socialized medicine when the US can accept this
 
2012-10-07 03:39:04 PM

Spartapuss: I'm not cynical enough to only support a bounty system but customer satisfaction would ultimately make a healthcare company more profitable and sustainable so you have the right idea.


The people in control in the U.S. aren't worried about customer satisfaction or sustainability. The increased profits from those come at too long a term to be "competitive".
 
2012-10-07 03:39:12 PM

Spartapuss: I'm not cynical enough to only support a bounty system but customer satisfaction would ultimately make a healthcare company more profitable and sustainable so you have the right idea.


Yeah, when is the last time anyone stopped to look at a healthcare company's "customer satisfaction" rating? You go to the clinics/hospitals/specialists/care centers that your insurance covers, and that's the end of it. US healthcare is already run by corporations, but you don't get to pick and choose who you're covered by, it's based on how good the HR person at your company is at negotiation, how big your company is, and how much they are willing to pay to insure you. The quality of care you get is a crap shoot.

Personally, I get lucky, my wife has great insurance through her job, but I do not represent the majority out there.
 
2012-10-07 03:41:23 PM

DuncanMhor: These numbers are appalling. I know that nursing and care home budgets are being cut as a result of "austerity". Poorly paid, and less qualified "support assistants" were beginning to replace support workers when I was in the care industry. when you're not being paid much, you're not going to be that enthusiastic at your job. The ones that see it as a calling are often worse.


^THIS.

The average Medicaid day rate for a nursing home is $172, or $7.16 an hour. Less than minimum wage.

Link

They have no choice but to assign a bunch of patients to each low paid "support assistant".
 
2012-10-07 03:42:44 PM

Cyclometh: So, you wanna go for Double Jeopardy, where the scores can really change?


None of those things ever happen in any other country and the one 'comparable' statistic doesn't give enough detail. Preventable death includes what all exactly? Is that simply a health care issue or is it, as I strongly suspect got a lot to do with poor choices made by patients?

It's been long enough now that it may not be true anymore but as little as 5-6 years ago if you got cancer... You know, something we can use as a true measuring stick of health care... The mortality rate for it was lower in the United States than in the countries you named. It was significantly lower than Canada and you'd think being right next to us they could do a little better.

That didn't take 10 seconds of google. These are things I already knew.
 
2012-10-07 03:43:01 PM

randomjsa: Then again if 150 people died of thirst and hunger in the American health care system liberalsconservatives would go absolutely nuclear so maybe I should get back to pointing out the failures of the 'better' health care systems.


FTFY 
USA #1!!1!!!
 
2012-10-07 03:43:12 PM

Mikey1969: Spartapuss: I'm not cynical enough to only support a bounty system but customer satisfaction would ultimately make a healthcare company more profitable and sustainable so you have the right idea.

Yeah, when is the last time anyone stopped to look at a healthcare company's "customer satisfaction" rating? You go to the clinics/hospitals/specialists/care centers that your insurance covers, and that's the end of it. US healthcare is already run by corporations, but you don't get to pick and choose who you're covered by, it's based on how good the HR person at your company is at negotiation, how big your company is, and how much they are willing to pay to insure you. The quality of care you get is a crap shoot.

Personally, I get lucky, my wife has great insurance through her job, but I do not represent the majority out there.


So we're on the same page and with our own ideas on how to fix that problem. I'll just agree to disagree for now.
 
2012-10-07 03:44:08 PM

Spartapuss: Mikey1969: Spartapuss: Mikey1969: The truth of the matter is that grandma isn't eating and nobody is noticing, they are treating the patients like "tasks", instead of people.

We should just privatize the system. They would care if it affected their paycheck.

Only if it were some kind of "bounty" system, otherwise, it's just a day of work and a ward full of people.

I'm not cynical enough to only support a bounty system but customer satisfaction would ultimately make a healthcare company more profitable and sustainable so you have the right idea.


Is this some sort of retarded attempt to be "skookum for healthcare?" I mean, yes the comments are so retarded that reading them is making my brain try to strangle my optic nerve to make the pain go away, and it's similar to the deadpan "skookum" used.

But on the other hand, there are also people who actually believe this BS out there.

/The way privatized healthcare is run in the US is a demonstrable failure of astronomical proportions
//Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant of the basic requirements for a free market to work
 
2012-10-07 03:46:18 PM
Over 15,000 people die each year in America due to doctor mistakes. So I'm not seeing what the outrage should be.
 
2012-10-07 03:48:04 PM

Banned on the Run: When people think single payor healthcare in the US is going to look just like it does now, with the only difference is that it is free, I facepalm.

The UK has 2 levels of care -- the kind you pay for, and the kind you don't. I welcome socialized medicine when the US can accept this


Interesting post......explain?
 
2012-10-07 03:49:49 PM

AutumnWind: If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.


You forgot to mention all the rape.

encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com


The ones who are trying to escape are a minority and they would the ones with dementia, who really really need to be in a nursing home. People who think that it is always better for patients to be at home annoy me to no end. If you have spent 15 minutes with someone with dementia you would be dropping them off at anyplace that would take them. We need nursing homes, just need them to be better.
 
2012-10-07 03:51:11 PM

intelligent comment below: Over 15,000 people die each year in America due to doctor mistakes. So I'm not seeing what the outrage should be.


The worst thing is that the practitioners refuse to admit their error. This will compound the error often.
 
2012-10-07 03:51:42 PM

erik-k: Spartapuss: Mikey1969: Spartapuss: Mikey1969: The truth of the matter is that grandma isn't eating and nobody is noticing, they are treating the patients like "tasks", instead of people.

We should just privatize the system. They would care if it affected their paycheck.

Only if it were some kind of "bounty" system, otherwise, it's just a day of work and a ward full of people.

I'm not cynical enough to only support a bounty system but customer satisfaction would ultimately make a healthcare company more profitable and sustainable so you have the right idea.

Is this some sort of retarded attempt to be "skookum for healthcare?" I mean, yes the comments are so retarded that reading them is making my brain try to strangle my optic nerve to make the pain go away, and it's similar to the deadpan "skookum" used.

But on the other hand, there are also people who actually believe this BS out there.

/The way privatized healthcare is run in the US is a demonstrable failure of astronomical proportions
//Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant of the basic requirements for a free market to work


I don't believe it's a failure, I just think we misunderstand the goal. The goal on a macro level is profit, and in that respect it's a huge success. It just doesn't do a very good job of helping people without bankrupting them.

And before the apologists start: I'm not saying it's not "one of the best systems in the world." I'm just saying that maybe we should be aiming a little higher than a B minus in this arena. Y'know, like we do with our military...
 
2012-10-07 03:52:19 PM

intelligent comment below: Over 15,000 people die each year in America due to doctor mistakes. So I'm not seeing what the outrage should be.



yea, the outrage is palpable. but since doctors are making the dollars and are treated like Gods in the USA, nobody seems too concerned with these deaths.

ain't Freedom great!
 
2012-10-07 03:54:39 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Via Infinito: That is truly awful, subs.

Certainly far worse than the 45,000 people dying in America each year because they don't have health insurance.

And that doesn't even cover the neglected seniors that live in poorly run nursing homes throughout the U.S.


Don't forget the death panels.
 
2012-10-07 03:55:03 PM
So how many people die of thirst or starvation in American hospitals?
 
2012-10-07 03:55:37 PM

cchris_39: Bathia_Mapes: Via Infinito: That is truly awful, subs.

Certainly far worse than the 45,000 people dying in America each year because they don't have health insurance.

And that doesn't even cover the neglected seniors that live in poorly run nursing homes throughout the U.S.

^THIS

Medicare and Medicaid reimbursments have been cut so many times that the nursing homes are competing with McDonald's for labor. It's all they can afford under the current reimbursements.

Filpping burgers might suck, but it still beats changing soiled sheets.



yea, i'd rather work at the inprocessing end rather than the outprocessing end. and i bet the Medical Industry doesn't pay those diaper changers much above minimum wage. kinda' handy to have those folks crossing the border to change sh*tty american diapers on adults.

the American Medical ASSociation has things just were they like it.

ain't Freedom great!
 
2012-10-07 03:56:29 PM

cchris_39: Banned on the Run: When people think single payor healthcare in the US is going to look just like it does now, with the only difference is that it is free, I facepalm.

The UK has 2 levels of care -- the kind you pay for, and the kind you don't. I welcome socialized medicine when the US can accept this

Interesting post......explain?


You can buy health insurance in the UK and "top up" to go to a private hospital. They're generally more luxurious, and have a far higher staff-to-patient ratio. When it comes to surgery though, it's often the same surgeons that perform the operations. Many physicians work in both the public and private spheres
 
2012-10-07 03:56:48 PM

MrEricSir: So how many people die of thirst or starvation in American hospitals?



the World may never know!
 
2012-10-07 03:56:50 PM

Via Infinito: That is truly awful, subs.

Certainly far worse than the 45,000 people dying in America each year because they don't have health insurance.


DI1
 
2012-10-07 03:57:27 PM

Lionel Mandrake: If they couldn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, f*ck 'em, they had it coming. More resources for me.




yey man, you're butting in on my resources!
 
2012-10-07 03:58:04 PM
Living in America makes me wanna' have kids.................

NOT.
 
2012-10-07 03:58:42 PM

AutumnWind: If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.


Id rather die than be in a home. Not that I expect anything other than dying alone, but if I can't live with my family then fark it.
I don't expect a busy family to drive across town all the time and halt their lives to see an aging relative who has lost his mind and shiats his pants.
 
2012-10-07 03:58:51 PM

vpb: That's sick. When we starve people to death we make the go die in the street instead of dirtying up our nice hospitals.




well, you know, image is everything.
 
2012-10-07 03:59:02 PM

elchip: Bocasio: Daily Mail and Telegraph are Rupert Murdoch newspapers AKA
Fox News England 


/Wall Street Journal circling drain

He owns neither. He owns the Times and the Sun.


Your right,

I'll stick ti reading the Gaurdian
 
2012-10-07 04:02:17 PM
The final solution to the baby boomers healthcare nightmare? It'll be nosocomial infections. Health care workers can only do so much to prevent them. The sheer number of people in the hospital will be overwhelming in 10-15 years.

There will be so many of them, and we will hear about this until the last subset of the baby boomer population dies off.
 
2012-10-07 04:02:45 PM

spongeboob: AutumnWind: If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.

You forgot to mention all the rape.

[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 183x275]


The ones who are trying to escape are a minority and they would the ones with dementia, who really really need to be in a nursing home. People who think that it is always better for patients to be at home annoy me to no end. If you have spent 15 minutes with someone with dementia you would be dropping them off at anyplace that would take them. We need nursing homes, just need them to be better.


No, they're not really a minority. I worked in a nursing home for a few years. Two of my grandparent's have had dementia as well. Of course they couldn't be at home. When did I say we don't need nursing homes? I said people should visit their grandparents instead of dropping them off somewhere and forgetting about them.
 
2012-10-07 04:06:48 PM

nickelni: MyRandomName: http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/06/20/new-estimate-on- d eaths-among-uninsured-is-actually-19-years-old/

From the article in your link:

"It's possible that the number is actually higher. A 2009 article in the American Journal of Public Health actually found 40% increase in the risk of death for those who lack insurance. The IOM notes this finding, and that using it would have substantially increased the 26,000 number."



I can't wait to see his riposte.

*crickets*

Nevermind.
 
2012-10-07 04:11:56 PM
Now you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you...
 
2012-10-07 04:13:15 PM

Smackledorfer: AutumnWind: If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.

Id rather die than be in a home. Not that I expect anything other than dying alone, but if I can't live with my family then fark it.
I don't expect a busy family to drive across town all the time and halt their lives to see an aging relative who has lost his mind and shiats his pants.


It's just a drive across town. And there are fun things you can do if it's a nice nursing home. And the people you visit might have some new stories to tell that you've never heard before. Maybe because they're not real, but some might be. You could even get to know some new people. The only good part about a nursing home job is the adorable people and the things they say. On the downside though there could be some violent people and some with diseases.

I'd rather die than be in one to ... when I worked there I would sometimes wonder if maybe I was a resident and I was just delusional thinking I worked there. So if I ever ended up there it would be a nightmare come true.
 
2012-10-07 04:17:09 PM

Seabon: It's always British Healthcare. How come they don't ever use Germany's health system or France's?


Because the British government is starving the NHS to death and privatising it as much and as fast as the electorate will let them get away with.
 
2012-10-07 04:18:32 PM

Tyrone Slothrop: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Good thing Obamacare bears no resemblance whatsoever to the British NHS.

Heck, it doesn't even resemble the private care-public insurance system in Canada.


In fact, it looks pretty much the same as pre-Obamacare, only people have to have insurance.
 
2012-10-07 04:18:57 PM

Linux_Yes:
yea, i'd rather work at the inprocessing end rather than the outprocessing end. and i bet the Medical Industry doesn't pay those diaper changers much above minimum wage. kinda' handy to have those folks crossing the border to change sh*tty american diapers on adults.

the American Medical ASSociation has things just were they like it.

ain't Freedom great!


Lost me there. The nursing home are the single best example of "single payor" we have here.....almost 100% is paid for by a single government payor that sets the rate.

And what did they do? They set the rate below cost! So yeah, there is no "rationing" or "death panels", but there may as well be.

What exactly are you saying? You want the quality of care at nursing homes to become the standard for all care?
 
2012-10-07 04:19:56 PM
Let me get this straight.... UK has healthcare and people sadly die due to negligence. Ergo, the US shouldn't have healthcare. Does that sum it up?

Really?
 
2012-10-07 04:20:50 PM

crab66: The derp when it comes to conservatives in this country and healthcare is just about too much to handle.


Even looking at it from a purely fiscal point of view you would realize that it's waaaaaay more expensive to send people to hospitals and let them become seriously ill from preventable or manageable diseases than it is to insure them.


But no lets scare people with bullshiat like this because I'm sure the amount people suffering in the US due to lack of treatment isn't tenfold(per capita) what it is in the UK or any other civilized country.


Hey, who cares what it costs the ebil gubmint! I'm makin' money hand over fist with my insurance scam plan and my death clinic nursing home!
 
2012-10-07 04:21:51 PM

Bathia_Mapes: BronyMedic: If you don't think this happens in the United States very, very often, submitter, you're either naive, an idiot, or a liar by willful omission.

Bears repeating.

 
2012-10-07 04:22:01 PM

Durga: I prefer the system we use in Canada. I pay taxes and am a citizen, therefore I'm covered under public insurance. It covers standard yearly checkups and all emergency care, as well as maternity, and specialists if I get a referal. The yearly cleaning at the dentist isn't covered, but if I knock a tooth out the emergency room will refer me to a dentist to have it put back in if possible. And I can always buy insurance on my own or through benefits at work to cover things like glasses, the dentist, etc.
On the other hand when I took a trip to the states in high school we were warned to buy travel insurance because we were going mountain climbing, and if you broke your leg and had to be helicoptered out to a hospital, it would end up costing about $15K.


I'm also Canadian and I would have a slap fight with anyone wanting to take our system or even go in the direction of two-tier. However, on you rock climbing example, I think the injured party engaging in it should have some type of responsibility for the extraordinary cost (i.e., helicopter).
 
2012-10-07 04:22:07 PM
So 21 people died of thirst and 43 starved to death?
Certainly, we can all agree on one thing.
Those are some crappy death panels.
 
2012-10-07 04:22:59 PM

DuncanMhor: These numbers are appalling. I know that nursing and care home budgets are being cut as a result of "austerity". Poorly paid, and less qualified "support assistants" were beginning to replace support workers when I was in the care industry. when you're not being paid much, you're not going to be that enthusiastic at your job. The ones that see it as a calling are often worse.

But the main point regarding the NHS, is that for all its faults, I am not a serf. I can move freely from job to job, with no worries about healthcare. If I had the balls to do it, I could start my own business, or become a contractor, all without even having to think about how to maintain healthcare provision.

Encouraging free markets for labour (if your boss is a jerk - find a new job), business creation and entrepreneurship. What does your healthcare funding system do for you?


Heh, no, no SOSHULIST COMMIE EBIL GUBMINT SYSTEM could ever promote free enterprise. Ever. Look it up. Ebil gubmint has never once promoted free enterprise.
 
2012-10-07 04:23:10 PM

NeverDrunk23: Since an alternative isnt perfectly perfect and solve the problem in 5 seconds, fark it and stay with the current much worse system?


It's the American way.

/pay off the debt in TEN YEARS?!?!?!
//WHY BOTHER?!??!
 
2012-10-07 04:24:58 PM

AutumnWind: spongeboob: AutumnWind: If you're so worried about your grandmas not being fed or given water why don't you visit them in the hospital and see they're taken care of rather than ignoring them? Even in nursing homes in America so many people never visit. And if they do it's once a year. And the residents in the nursing homes just spend 24/7 trying to escape back to their families that never come.

You forgot to mention all the rape.

[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 183x275]


The ones who are trying to escape are a minority and they would the ones with dementia, who really really need to be in a nursing home. People who think that it is always better for patients to be at home annoy me to no end. If you have spent 15 minutes with someone with dementia you would be dropping them off at anyplace that would take them. We need nursing homes, just need them to be better.

No, they're not really a minority. I worked in a nursing home for a few years. Two of my grandparent's have had dementia as well. Of course they couldn't be at home. When did I say we don't need nursing homes? I said people should visit their grandparents instead of dropping them off somewhere and forgetting about them.


You said the people there are trying escape 24/7, they are not. They may wish to go home but they are not trying to escape. Not all patients are in the nursing home for ever, some are there just for rehab, and the ones who are there for the rest of their lives are either there of their own free will or need so much care their families can't provide it. Maybe the nursing home you worked in was just a shiatty home. From the nursing homes I have been in there are good and bad ones. We as a country should be focusing on making all of them at least adequate.

Yes people should visit their family in nursing homes but they should do the same if their family is in any kind of residential situation be it nursing home, personal care home, hospital, group home, sleep away school or prison.


I read comments like your's and they just remind me of the sanctimonious people who claim 'my mother will never go to a nursing home' as they look down their noses at those who had to make the tough decision to put someone into a care facility.


/my experience shows that religious nursing homes are usually the best
//Jewish ones rule, Mennonite second
///Just claim mom doesn't remember what religion she is right now
 
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