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(Marketwatch)   Supreme Court to decide whether or not you're allowed to resell your own stuff   (marketwatch.com) divider line 269
    More: Asinine, U.S. Supreme Court, iPhone, John Wiley & Sons, friend of the courts, Association of Colleges, American Library Association, Georgetown University Law School  
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25833 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Oct 2012 at 8:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-06 09:46:41 PM

Gepetto: All Congress needs to do is amend the Copyright Act with two lines of text.


Then I would humbly suggest that folks contact their Congresscritters and tell them to do just that. Better to do so now, before the Supreme Court can be paid by every copyright owner with outsourcing on the mind to destroy over a century of statutory right, than later, when every Toyota owner loses half the value of their car to a "reseller's fee" when they sell the damn thing to some teenager.
 
2012-10-06 09:49:17 PM
Recycling would probably be affected too/
 
2012-10-06 09:51:00 PM
Resale tax is in general bullshiat. Why does one have to pay tax on a used car. Or why does these companies want to do this to us? GREED, that's why!!! America is built on greed. And as Americans we need to tell these companies and our own government to F%&K off!
 
2012-10-06 09:51:19 PM
well that's one way to get me to buy less worthless shiat.
 
2012-10-06 09:52:41 PM

narkor: The solution to this is not to allow textbooks to be sold cheaper in other countries. Sell them at the same RRP and if they can't afford that, they can *always write their own textbooks*. I'm sure they are smart enough to do it. Make it all "open source" - that way none of the authors profit.


No, the solution is to stop publishers from charging 200-300% more for a book than a similar, non-course-bound book would cost. Case in point, I had to buy a coding textbook for my Visual Basic class that was like $110 new, I got a used one for about $75 at the campus store. A similar VB book on Amazon is between $15-$35. Explain that to me without paraphrasing 'well the publisher can't sell as many because it's not a commonly used book'. Hell, the Microsoft 576 page book is only $25. Meanwhile all that cash difference is NOT going to my professor, but a faceless publisher, or in the case of the used book, the college bookstore that ripped off the last owner when he traded it in. And in my case at least, this is condoned by the state U system.

I'm not saying force mandatory, set prices by any means, but at least make them compete with the other publishers out there.
 
2012-10-06 09:53:48 PM
'Don't give me no hand me down shoes...'
 
2012-10-06 09:54:09 PM
The case stems from Supap Kirtsaeng's college experience. A native of Thailand, Kirtsaeng came to the U.S. in 1997 to study at Cornell University. When he discovered that his textbooks, produced by Wiley, were substantially cheaper to buy in Thailand than they were in Ithaca, N.Y., he rallied his Thai relatives to buy the books and ship them to him in the U.S.

While it's a completely separate issue, what is being overlooked is that most U.S. textbooks are sold overseas for 50% to 75% less than the U.S. MSRP.

Many countries want to use our textbooks, but they cannot afford the U.S. price. So what the publisher does, is print the textbook in black & white, uses a cheaper paper stock, and only uses soft covers. The content is 100% the same. If you put the same page from the U.S. version next to the international version, they'd be identical except that the international version is in black & white.

I'm a grad student and recently discovered this; I have saved a fortune buying the international version of textbooks that I need for class.

The obvious point, is that the textbook industry has the power to easily slash the cost of textbooks. Talk about something that demands government regulation.
 
2012-10-06 09:56:14 PM
e

FormlessOne: Gepetto: All Congress needs to do is amend the Copyright Act with two lines of text.

Then I would humbly suggest that folks contact their Congresscritters and tell them to do just that. Better to do so now, before the Supreme Court can be paid by every copyright owner with outsourcing on the mind to destroy over a century of statutory right, than later, when every Toyota owner loses half the value of their car to a "reseller's fee" when they sell the damn thing to some teenager.


In case people missed it when I linked the ebay blog thing about it, Citizens For Ownership has a petition about this; maybe not as good as flooding your Congresscritters but it's another method and doesn't require a phone call.
 
2012-10-06 09:57:03 PM

topcon: Yeah, this isn't going anywhere.


So an apple from the tree, through the shipping companies, to the store and eventually you has many custody changes. Is each instance going to require seller permission (with a royalty fee attached, of course)?

 
2012-10-06 09:57:18 PM

thornhill: The obvious point, is that the textbook industry has the power to easily slash the cost of textbooks. Talk about something that demands government regulation.


/Facepalm
 
2012-10-06 09:57:54 PM

gaspode: They are trying to find a way to stop grey imports even though there is no legal way to stop them at all in your relatively true free-marker economy. There is a vast effort at trying to redefine the law, this is just a mechanism for that. There isn't really any 'reasoning' other than the desired result


I get that, but when they do that kind of stuff they have to at least pretend there's some logic behind it when they write their opinion.
 
2012-10-06 09:58:17 PM
Realistically, if the SCOTUS overturned the first-sale doctrine, it would be enough to cause a very violent upheaval in this country. Could you imagine not being able to sell almost anything second-hand? It would cause utter economic chaos to the point of people making their disagreement in the form of bullets and other things that cause massive bodily harm. It would be suicide.
 
2012-10-06 10:00:24 PM
Also, this is similar in abstract to buying cheaper US pharmaceuticals outside the states and bringing them back in. Same drug. Much cheaper. The US has made all kind of noise about stopping that. Don't expect this to be any different.
 
2012-10-06 10:00:53 PM

ZAZ: Here is the question the court has agreed to answer:How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright's owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy "lawfully made under this title" to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner's permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?So stop worrying about your made-in-China lead lollipops. This only affects items acquired overseas.


So, free markets?
 
2012-10-06 10:02:06 PM

gaspode: There isn't really any 'reasoning' other than the desired result


This.
 
2012-10-06 10:07:05 PM
They might have a thing over CUSTOMS allowing imports if they appear to be for resale outside the permitted area. IF that is a legally binding request.

However, if resale is allowed freely in defiance of regions, this is actually suckage for other countries. These guys get steep discounts in drugs, books, equipment, goods of all types, over US pricing. If they are legally able to just turn around and resell to the US, killing their US-sale cash cow, then the companies would ask themselves if taking an item that costs $10 to make, sells for $200 in the USA, but also sells for $15 in China only to find China ordered 3x more than they could possibly USE and are killing the US sales, that maybe they should start bringing up the China price to $150 or all the way to $200.

Bottom line being that these countries may have to pay US prices, and they can't, so basically they're cut off.
 
2012-10-06 10:11:24 PM

dustman81: cman: There aint no way in hell SCOTUS would overturn the 1908 precedent. That would cause extreme chaos within our country and its economic system. SCOTUS wouldn't dare to do something that drastic

Even, if they did, which is unlikely, I don't see how it could be enforced. Not to mention companies like eBay and Craigslist would be destroyed.


Not just them; every flea market, yard sale and consignment store in the nation would be put out of business, not to mention every single pawn shop as well, if SCOTUS agreed with the appellate court.
 
2012-10-06 10:13:38 PM

ElLoco: heavymetal: You would think we would want to encopurage students in the U.S. to get a good education and go to college. It benefits our entire nation. So why do companies feel it is OK to fleece the Amercian student ot of every penny possible making it harder to get an education?

They aren't going after the students, per say... they are just a means to an end and a casualty of the situation. They are going after the scholarship, grant and subsidy money to which a student has access. That a student may endure financial hardship or suffer in academic performance is inconsequential to the greater goal.


I getyour sarcasm and tha is the point. Scholarship students, the really smart ones, and the ones with rich parents are fine. Stuff like this screws over the "borderline" college student. Smart enough to pass and get a job in the field, but not smart enough for a scholarship and not from a wealthy enough family to have their way paid.

Call me wierd, but we should make college easier to access and not harder.
 
2012-10-06 10:15:58 PM

ZAZ: Here is the question the court has agreed to answer:How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright's owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy "lawfully made under this title" to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner's permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?So stop worrying about your made-in-China lead lollipops. This only affects items acquired overseas.


All that shiat at Walmart is manufactured abroad and imported into the US. Is that not acquired overseas?
 
2012-10-06 10:16:35 PM
Considering this would destroy the entire used book/movie/game industry, I'd have to say that this shiat will not stand.
 
2012-10-06 10:17:23 PM

andyofne: ZAZ: Here is the question the court has agreed to answer:How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright's owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy "lawfully made under this title" to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner's permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?So stop worrying about your made-in-China lead lollipops. This only affects items acquired overseas.

All that shiat at Walmart is manufactured abroad and imported into the US. Is that not acquired overseas?


Trick question.
None of that stuff survives one owner.
 
2012-10-06 10:25:44 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dahmers love zombie: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Considering that 9/10 items on store shelves in America (including virtually 100% of electronic/technology related products) are made outside the USA, customers here would be unable to resell nearly everything they ever buy.

Hey...wouldn't that boost the economy? I mean, apart from every flea market, auction house, and eBay?

Well, that would put every single independent used car lot out of business overnight, as they'd never have any cars to sell.


This applies to copyrighted items. Cars aren't copyrighted.
 
2012-10-06 10:28:27 PM
BEST ANSWER


Gepetto: ZAZ: Here is the question the court has agreed to answer:How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright's owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy "lawfully made under this title" to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner's permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?So stop worrying about your made-in-China lead lollipops. This only affects items acquired overseas.

This, kind of. Wikipedia says it succinctly: "The issue comes down to whether §602(a) creates an affirmative right to bar all unauthorized importation, or does the first-sale doctrine limit the reach of §602(a), thus permitting the resale of at least some lawfully made imported copies."

What nobody on this thread has brought up is the important part: This is a case of statutory interpretation, not constitutionality. HealthCare and Citizens United were cases deciding the constitutionality of certain statutes. This case, on the other hand, involves interpreting an already constitutionally valid statute which, on the face of it, seems to outlaw the importation of foreign, copyrighted goods.

If the court upholds the lower court, they are not reversing precedent because the first-sale doctrine is a statutory right (17 USC §109(a)). The Constitution doesn't guarantee you any sort of copyright protection, only that Congress has the power to regulate it. If the statute plainly says that you can't sell imported, foreign copyrighted goods, then the Supreme Court can't decided that the statute does allow you to sell those goods. All Congress needs to do is amend the Copyright Act with two lines of text.

 
2012-10-06 10:29:30 PM

cedarpark:

/Unless textbooks have suddenly got batshait expensive.


Where you been? 1975 I paid $120 for "Radioisotope Methodology" by Chase and Rabinowitz.
 
2012-10-06 10:30:18 PM

Benjimin_Dover: Grand_Moff_Joseph: dahmers love zombie: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Considering that 9/10 items on store shelves in America (including virtually 100% of electronic/technology related products) are made outside the USA, customers here would be unable to resell nearly everything they ever buy.

Hey...wouldn't that boost the economy? I mean, apart from every flea market, auction house, and eBay?

Well, that would put every single independent used car lot out of business overnight, as they'd never have any cars to sell.

This applies to copyrighted items. Cars aren't copyrighted.


That was my next question... how much of that shiat is protected under copyright and how much under trademark laws and how much under patent law?
 
2012-10-06 10:31:30 PM
Big news today: Giant corporations don't like competition and will stomp on your grandma's estate sale to stop it.
 
2012-10-06 10:33:53 PM
Americans must pay premium prices for higher education. Otherwise the poor would have a better chance to compete with the rich for jobs.
 
2012-10-06 10:34:28 PM
But when you buy something from a store, it's already not the first sale. Target bought this iPad I'm using to type this ofrom Apple. Unless you buy right from the manufaturer it's not a first sale.

Would Apple need to get permission from The makers of parts for their products to sell them to consumers?
 
2012-10-06 10:42:59 PM

Cyclometh: But when you buy something from a store, it's already not the first sale. Target bought this iPad I'm using to type this ofrom Apple. Unless you buy right from the manufaturer it's not a first sale.

Would Apple need to get permission from The makers of parts for their products to sell them to consumers?


whoa.
 
2012-10-06 10:44:52 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Actually, that may depend on where the car was built. Honda may be a Japanese company, but the car was manufactured here. So, if it's manufactured here, I can sell it again, right?


Not if they declared it as something intended to be marketed only in a 10' radius of the dealer where you bought it. That's the insanity that upholding this could unleash.
 
2012-10-06 10:44:54 PM

Cyclometh: But when you buy something from a store, it's already not the first sale. Target bought this iPad I'm using to type this ofrom Apple. Unless you buy right from the manufaturer it's not a first sale.

Would Apple need to get permission from The makers of parts for their products to sell them to consumers?


It's been mentioned above, but this is stuff protected by copyright, not just anything made overseas and purchased. Right of First Sale means that if you write a book, record a song, or make another work protected by copyright and I buy a copy (first sale), I can then lend my copy to people, sell my original copy, or do a few other things with it (the list escapes me) without infringing on your copyright. I can't make a bunch of copies and sell them for profit, because your copyright protects you and First Sale doesn't extend that protection to me.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-06 10:46:45 PM
Would Apple need to get permission from The makers of parts for their products to sell them to consumers?

They already do that for copyrightable things. Any acquisition of intellectual property by Apple has all sorts of negotiated terms and conditions and warranties and indemnification in both directions.  Same with any big corporation.
 
2012-10-06 10:48:28 PM
Years ago I bought a computer that came bundled with Windows Office 2000. My employer required that I use Windows Office 2003 when I utilized my home computer for business tasks. My employer provided me with a licensed copy of Windows Office 2003 to install on my home computer. Now I had the disc for Office 2000 that was no longer installed on my computer, or any other computer for that matter. I put the Office 2000 disc up for sale on eBay, since the disc CAME BUNDLED WITH A COMPUTER THAT I PAID FOR. The auction was pulled 3 days later. I received a notice from eBay stating that as per Microsoft licensing agreements, I was not allowed to resell OEM Microsoft software.
 
2012-10-06 10:54:30 PM

Benjimin_Dover:
This applies to copyrighted items. Cars aren't copyrighted.


But the logo on the car is subject to copyright. Perhaps the unique letter and number combination on the VIN plate...
 
2012-10-06 10:56:08 PM
Years ago I bought a computer that came bundled with Windows Office 2000. My employer required that I use Windows Office 2003 when I utilized my home computer for business tasks. My employer provided me with a licensed copy of Windows Office 2003 to install on my home computer. Now I had the disc for Office 2000 that was no longer installed on my computer, or any other computer for that matter. I put the Office 2000 disc up for sale on eBay, since the disc CAME BUNDLED WITH A COMPUTER THAT I PAID FOR. The auction was pulled 3 days later. I received a notice from eBay stating that as per Microsoft licensing agreements, I was not allowed to resell OEM Microsoft software.

And that is why Mr.Gates has all that money. Microsoft doesn't sell a program it sells a license to use that program. Be thankful you don't have to pay to renew the license like you do for your car.
 
2012-10-06 10:56:13 PM
Black markets ALREADY exist and it's legal to sell shiat now.

The more copyright lawyers push, the more laws free men will have to break to be free.
 
2012-10-06 10:56:15 PM
You need to have money to make money. If you're poor and find a way to make money we will make it illegal.
 
2012-10-06 10:59:17 PM
Yawn. Just one more of the thousands of laws that I ignore (and violate if I feel like it).
 
2012-10-06 11:00:04 PM

thornhill: The case stems from Supap Kirtsaeng's college experience. A native of Thailand, Kirtsaeng came to the U.S. in 1997 to study at Cornell University. When he discovered that his textbooks, produced by Wiley, were substantially cheaper to buy in Thailand than they were in Ithaca, N.Y., he rallied his Thai relatives to buy the books and ship them to him in the U.S.

While it's a completely separate issue, what is being overlooked is that most U.S. textbooks are sold overseas for 50% to 75% less than the U.S. MSRP.

Many countries want to use our textbooks, but they cannot afford the U.S. price. So what the publisher does, is print the textbook in black & white, uses a cheaper paper stock, and only uses soft covers. The content is 100% the same. If you put the same page from the U.S. version next to the international version, they'd be identical except that the international version is in black & white.

I'm a grad student and recently discovered this; I have saved a fortune buying the international version of textbooks that I need for class.

The obvious point, is that the textbook industry has the power to easily slash the cost of textbooks. Talk about something that demands government regulation.


Engineering textbooks can be slightly iffy at times because US textbooks will jump between the use of metric and English units while international versions are pure metric. Or course what I've started seeing a lot at my college is people will buy old versions of the text book (can be gotten for dirt cheap, used as reference material) and just take photos of the needed questions out of a new book with their iphones and such.
 
2012-10-06 11:00:37 PM

gremlin1: Years ago I bought a computer that came bundled with Windows Office 2000. My employer required that I use Windows Office 2003 when I utilized my home computer for business tasks. My employer provided me with a licensed copy of Windows Office 2003 to install on my home computer. Now I had the disc for Office 2000 that was no longer installed on my computer, or any other computer for that matter. I put the Office 2000 disc up for sale on eBay, since the disc CAME BUNDLED WITH A COMPUTER THAT I PAID FOR. The auction was pulled 3 days later. I received a notice from eBay stating that as per Microsoft licensing agreements, I was not allowed to resell OEM Microsoft software.

And that is why Mr.Gates has all that money. Microsoft doesn't sell a program it sells a license to use that program. Be thankful you don't have to pay to renew the license like you do for your car.


Give it time.

I can't remember the article, but there was something that automakers were up to that pointed exactly in that direction.

Anyway, I expect that the on-board systems will eventually start requiring a license to run... and be in total control of the vehicle. (i.e. can't drive at all unless you have paid your OnStar subscription)
 
2012-10-06 11:00:41 PM
The very same people that complain and rant about 'government interference' in the free market are the ones DEMANDING the government protect them from 'unfair' competition. Their very livelihoods depend on taxpayers footing the bill for copyright and trade protection that cost billions, but since it butters their bread it is A-OK with them. Without government 'interference' their business model would be completely kaput as there is no way their business model would function if they had to foot the bill for that kind of protection on their own.
 
2012-10-06 11:04:46 PM

buzzcut73: Benjimin_Dover:
This applies to copyrighted items. Cars aren't copyrighted.

But the logo on the car is subject to copyright. Perhaps the unique letter and number combination on the VIN plate...


The simple counter to that is the logo wasn't bought or sold. The car was and the receipt would be proof. Nothing mentioned on my receipt when I bought my cars. The logo was attached to the car and can remain the property of the copyright holder. The logo is just along for the ride.
 
2012-10-06 11:04:49 PM

ZAZ: Here is the question the court has agreed to answer:How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright's owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy "lawfully made under this title" to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner's permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?So stop worrying about your made-in-China lead lollipops. This only affects items acquired overseas.


Thank you very much for bringing an informed perspective to the conversation. You are truly a resource.
 
2012-10-06 11:05:58 PM
Yet, we don't have the right to take their job. I don't know (but there are a lot of smart Farkers on here) is there anyway to get a SC Justice off their job? (probably not of the right-wing would be rallying around it yearly)
 
2012-10-06 11:07:03 PM

gremlin1: Years ago I bought a computer that came bundled with Windows Office 2000. My employer required that I use Windows Office 2003 when I utilized my home computer for business tasks. My employer provided me with a licensed copy of Windows Office 2003 to install on my home computer. Now I had the disc for Office 2000 that was no longer installed on my computer, or any other computer for that matter. I put the Office 2000 disc up for sale on eBay, since the disc CAME BUNDLED WITH A COMPUTER THAT I PAID FOR. The auction was pulled 3 days later. I received a notice from eBay stating that as per Microsoft licensing agreements, I was not allowed to resell OEM Microsoft software.

And that is why Mr.Gates has all that money. Microsoft doesn't sell a program it sells a license to use that program. Be thankful you don't have to pay to renew the license like you do for your car.


=============

Yeah, ultimately the joke was on Billy. I was so pissed about not being able to resell something I had paid for, I went to Demonoid and helped myself to cracked versions of Bill's software. Bill's asshole-ism is what encouraged me to join the ancient brotherhood of pirates. Yar-matey!
 
2012-10-06 11:09:34 PM
Here's my answer:

Stop me.


No, really. I dare you. Stop me.

Not just me. Stop the millions of other Americans selling their stuff on Craigslist, or in the classifieds, or by putting up a sign in the local grocery store.

Stop us. We double-dog dare you.

Honestly... What are you going to do? Have cops follow up on fliers, classified ads, garage sales, yard sales, resale shops, Goodwill stores, and used book stores?

Are you going to have resale gestapo locking people up or fining us for selling "contraband" iPods and textbooks and Xbox 360s?

Do you remember the "war on drugs" and how that worked out for the justice system and prison system?

Yeah... So I f♥cking DARE you to stop me from selling my PSP or my copy of Red Dead Redemption or my Android phone. Try it. See how much of a mess you get on your hands.
 
2012-10-06 11:10:51 PM

Fissile: Years ago I bought a computer that came bundled with Windows Office 2000. My employer required that I use Windows Office 2003 when I utilized my home computer for business tasks. My employer provided me with a licensed copy of Windows Office 2003 to install on my home computer. Now I had the disc for Office 2000 that was no longer installed on my computer, or any other computer for that matter. I put the Office 2000 disc up for sale on eBay, since the disc CAME BUNDLED WITH A COMPUTER THAT I PAID FOR. The auction was pulled 3 days later. I received a notice from eBay stating that as per Microsoft licensing agreements, I was not allowed to resell OEM Microsoft software.


Key difference here: You do not own that software and thus cannot re-sell it. It is licensed to you and that license specifically prohibits resale.

I sell used desktops and laptops on a scale large enough to attract Microsoft's attention. Let me tell you, navigating the vagaries of Windows licensing without being sued into bankruptcy is no mean feat. They actively troll my retail stores and place online orders in the hopes they can get an employee to violate licensing terms because in their eyes computers are either to be destroyed once the first owner is done with them or they want another $50 - $70 every time a box with a Windows Certificate of Authenticity attached is resold.

I think it should go without saying: F*ck them in the ear.
 
2012-10-06 11:14:02 PM
HALT, CITIZEN! PUT DOWN THE BANANARAMA CASSETTE TAPE AND BACK AWAY FROM THE CARD TABLE SLOWLY WITH YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM!
 
2012-10-06 11:14:30 PM

BafflerMeal: True story:

Friend of mine who ran an ebay business (quite successfully) bought a few cases of cool Sennheiser headphones in bulk on sale, legitimately, in the US. When trying to sell them on Ebay for a markup but still under Sennheiser's current prices, Sennheiser threatened to sue him and forced Ebay to cancel all transactions. And that's not even with this potential ruling.

Not being able to afford to go up against Sennheiser, he had to eat thousands of dollars of inventory.


Orly?

He had no way of selling them within the same range as other Sennheiser dealers? Just had to throw 'em away and chalk up the loss?

Curious.

/Shenanigans.
 
2012-10-06 11:18:54 PM
therobinreport.com

Welcome to Fark?

Ya'll need to read s'more before you get all 'internet mad' at stuff.
 
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