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(Des Moines Register)   Making a high school athlete run extra laps as a form of discipline is now considered as evil as paddling. "I think youth sports are in trouble"   (desmoinesregister.com) divider line 121
    More: Silly, school bullying, National Occupational Standards, Bear Bryant, Iowa Department of Education, corporal punishments, Education Act 1696, Bobby Knight, physical education  
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4455 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Oct 2012 at 6:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-10-06 02:30:53 PM
To use conditioning as punishment is "almost vindictive in nature."

Punishment is vindictive by definition.
 
2012-10-06 03:10:52 PM
Jesus farking God. Who the fark hired this guy?
 
2012-10-06 03:32:28 PM
we are raising a nation of pussies.
 
2012-10-06 04:01:56 PM

ManateeGag: we are raising a nation of pussies.


Shh, someone might hear you and get offended.
 
2012-10-06 04:05:12 PM
To play devil's advocate: I'm sure there is a limit to how far you can use grueling exercise as a punishment.
 
2012-10-06 04:15:30 PM
suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com

I don't understand why a high school coach would need to discipline a kid. If the kid wants to do the work, let him play. If he doesn't, don't let him.
 
2012-10-06 04:17:21 PM

Counter_Intelligent: To play devil's advocate: I'm sure there is a limit to how far you can use grueling exercise as a punishment.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

Disagrees, now start pushing.
 
2012-10-06 04:22:23 PM

Counter_Intelligent: To play devil's advocate: I'm sure there is a limit to how far you can use grueling exercise as a punishment.


Yep, there's always a few stories each year of a coach who goes a bit past the limit.
 
2012-10-06 04:31:04 PM
i.imgur.com

Coach in question

i.imgur.com

Sports Program in Question
 
2012-10-06 04:35:46 PM
We got 10, maybe 15 years of football left before the concussion issue leads to insurance rates simply pricing the sport out of business. Stories like this simply accelerate its end.
 
2012-10-06 04:44:47 PM
imageshack.us
 
2012-10-06 05:17:32 PM
All I can say is that kids today better be glad they didn't go to military school with me 26 years ago. Running laps was the preferred form of punishment there. Pushups were a close second.
 
2012-10-06 05:54:14 PM
My kids get pushups if they get out of line...whether we're in the store or at home. It gives them time to cool off and me time to breathe so we can move along without argument.

I've had comments, mostly from young parents, that it is damaging to my kids' self-esteem. I ignore these people. Mostly I get rave reviews from the older folks. And I have pretty well-behaved kids.

What, honestly, are teachers supposed to do with these kids who are out of line? Ask them to pretty please not do that? At some point it's more damaging to any child NOT to discipline them, and this certainly sounds like that point.
 
2012-10-06 06:33:26 PM
As someone who ran many laps in school, I approve this message.

/I sound fat
 
2012-10-06 06:34:05 PM

ManateeGag: we are raising a nation of pussies.


This times a trillion
 
2012-10-06 06:34:53 PM

ZAZ: To use conditioning as punishment is "almost vindictive in nature."

Punishment is vindictive by definition.


I think the idea is not to associate athletic conditioning with punishment. Like you don't punish a kid by making him read.

/difference - high school students are not six years old
 
2012-10-06 06:35:20 PM
static.guim.co.uk

Approves of extra laps.
 
2012-10-06 06:38:43 PM
t2.gstatic.com

YOU WILL RUN LAPS UNTIL YOU PUKE! THEN AFTER YOU PUKE YOU'LL RUN UNTIL YOU POOP YOUR PANTS.
 
2012-10-06 06:39:48 PM
Would rather not require extra running but would instead force them to walk laps. Tedium is a useful punishment, but running works to associate physical activity as punishment. Walking, on the other hand, is significantly less physical as well as providing ample time to think and reinforcing discipline by being unable to complete the punishment faster. However, there is nothing damaging about running, just less effective in my opinion.
 
2012-10-06 06:41:39 PM
Well then, to be fair to everyone just and not single any one person out have the entire class\team do those "Extra" laps as well...

Then let them fix any team "Issues" in the locker room amongst themselves later on.
 
2012-10-06 06:41:41 PM
Even more effective than making the kid being punished run laps - make the entire team run laps because of the one disobedient kid, and remind the team over and over who is responsible while they're running. Peer pressure is the most effective way to get results with teenagers.
 
2012-10-06 06:41:42 PM

RedPhoenix122: Counter_Intelligent: To play devil's advocate: I'm sure there is a limit to how far you can use grueling exercise as a punishment.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 186x139]

Disagrees, now start pushing.


And when you're done with your 200 push-ups, maggot, you will run around the regimental area, until *I* get tired of watching you run! And I have the patience of a saint! Get moving, maggot!
 
2012-10-06 06:42:05 PM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: We got 10, maybe 15 years of football left before the concussion issue leads to insurance rates simply pricing the sport out of business. Stories like this simply accelerate its end.


www.icsmmblog.com

/Sad but probably true!!
 
2012-10-06 06:44:56 PM

granolasteak: My kids get pushups if they get out of line...whether we're in the store or at home. It gives them time to cool off and me time to breathe so we can move along without argument.

I've had comments, mostly from young parents, that it is damaging to my kids' self-esteem. I ignore these people. Mostly I get rave reviews from the older folks. And I have pretty well-behaved kids.

What, honestly, are teachers supposed to do with these kids who are out of line? Ask them to pretty please not do that? At some point it's more damaging to any child NOT to discipline them, and this certainly sounds like that point.


Provides additional exercise to the kids, and works as a form of discipline.

And you've run into people who have a problem with this?

Sadly, I'm not surprised.
 
2012-10-06 06:46:49 PM
What if you do lousy at a meet and coach makes the team run a pair of ladders the next day? Is that punishment or conditioning? Does it all depend on how he frames it?
 
2012-10-06 06:47:08 PM
More to the story than what is in the Rag's article. He went beyond just having the kid do extra conditioning and should be fired, and banned from coaching if all of the allegations are true. Linky to complete document on the investigation. http://localtvwhotv.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/campero-v-mihalovich-r edacted.pdf
 
2012-10-06 06:47:15 PM
i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-10-06 06:49:23 PM
cherrynougat.files.wordpress.com

but then again im from texas and next to jebus there is football. also we had to run everyone has to run. whats next excessive running in the military.

/gassers FTW!!!
//yes the stadium benches were covered in puke afterwards.
 
2012-10-06 06:49:24 PM
Our poor snowflakes are melting...
 
2012-10-06 06:50:18 PM
Whoever is complaining doesn't have a lot of exposure to young men. Exhausting testosterone fueled kids is a great way of keeping them out of trouble.
 
2012-10-06 06:53:02 PM
Chug this rootbeer as punishment.
 
2012-10-06 06:54:50 PM

Krieghund: I don't understand why a high school coach would need to discipline a kid. If the kid wants to do the work, let him play. If he doesn't, don't let him.


Stop being reasonable!

Even though studies uniformly say that coaches yelling at kids or punishing them with physical discipline is counterproductive at best, we need to continue to bully children because otherwise people might think we're gay or something.
 
2012-10-06 06:54:57 PM
I was very pleased yesterday seeing the gymnastics program my daughter is in provide some "discipline" with the program. The coach was getting after the girls some when they were talking or goofing off and made them run laps and stuff. It was kinda refreshing to see...especially with girls sports because its all foreign to me because I only grew up playing baseball, football, and other "boy" sports.

and guess what.....all the girls told the coaches bye, hugged them and all the things you would do towards a person you like. Most kids and parents understand that coaches should provide some discipline and call the kids out when they aren't doing what they are supposed to.
 
2012-10-06 06:55:57 PM
Detention, laps, extra homework - anything like that would be fine with me.

Giving another adult permission to hit my kid is not something I could ever see myself doing in a million years. I can hardly imagine how humiliating it must be for a child to be beaten in front of his or her peers. It's abuse, and the people who think it's ok are perpetuating the cycle of abuse. School should be a safe place where children aren't potential prey for adults to take their frustrations out on.

oh but spanking "works" you say? Great if that's the standard let's do all sorts of horrible damaging things to people in order to get them to do what we want. If you can spank a kid and get him to sit still for the next five minutes it worked, right? And you've taught him that violence is how you control people weaker than you.

/never spanked
//turned out fine
 
2012-10-06 06:57:55 PM
In other news kids are still getting fatter.
 
2012-10-06 06:59:13 PM
images4.wikia.nocookie.net 
Yeah, the players should all wear bras! And instead of helmets, they should wear little tin-foil hats, because you know, it's the future, and we shouldn't be so barbaric! Yeah, let's do that! We've got an economy in the toilet, a big election coming up, but this country's #1 priority should be making football safer! Oh, they'd love it! A sport where safety is all that matters? How about we call it Sarcastaball?!
 
2012-10-06 07:01:23 PM
haha look at all thes old ppl sittin around sayin "BACK IN MY DAY" LOLLL BACK IN YOU'RE DAY U WERE READING BOOKS, U LOOSERDS. funny how u all talk about how tough u are but not 1 of u could hang wit me in call of duty modern warfare 3 (soon to be call of duty black ops 2)...yea ill run laps around u...on xbox live loll. my mom told me too stop playing that game but i told her she was ugly. if your generation's so tough why didn't she do anything about it? yea thot so loll back to modern warfare 3 gotta get 18th prestiged so i can brag about it on gamefaqs
 
2012-10-06 07:02:10 PM
I don't think there's a problem with running laps as a form of discipline as long as it's not over done. If you want to make a point about minor misbehavior, one lap is as good as 10. That way, the kid knows you're in charge, and it's unlikely to cause any harm. For more severe stuff, suspension from play or expulsion from the team seems more appropriate. I suspect some coaches would rather not go there, however, if it means kicking the star player off the team, but sport participation is a privilege and should be treated as such.
 
2012-10-06 07:02:19 PM
Running laps was supposed to be "win-win". The condition of the runner improved and that had a positive effect on everybody. It also gave the runner time alone to either cool down or contemplate a bad decision or both.

If it was a team issue causing the laps, then the preceding times team.
 
2012-10-06 07:03:57 PM
You see that armory? Run around it! Bronski, keep pace!

/Anytime you think I'm being too rough, anytime you think I'm being too tough, anytime you miss your mommy, QUIT! You sign your 1248, you get your gear, and you take a stroll down washout lane. Do you get me?
 
2012-10-06 07:06:35 PM
Back in the mid-eighties, our varsity soccer coach used to make players do a 1 lap sprint to the schools East wall during practice whenever an attempted shot sailed high over the crossbar.

Needless to say, we rarely scored during games with any shot above the waist.
 
2012-10-06 07:08:34 PM
You're all worthless and weak!

Now drop and please accept my apology for that inappropriate outburst.
 
2012-10-06 07:11:14 PM
If they're not supposed to have any consequences for breaking the rules, then why are we surprised when they grow up and rape sorority sisters or engage in massive Ponzi schemes without the slightest twinge of conscience?
 
2012-10-06 07:12:22 PM
You can't make someone run. The person decides to run to appease the person making the demand to maintain the social construct that one person can control another. In truth, the person asking the other to run is the one who is out of control: they want something, but they aren't in control of whether what they want happens or not.

The one who runs is voluntarily containing the other's psychological state. The only true control is something like sitting on another person (assuming you're heavy enough to restrict the other's movement). Everything else is agreement. It would be as if an angry, rude customer comes into your store and demands a cake 50% off and you contain that person's emotions, don't create a reflector of their emotions but rather absorb them, and give them the cake at 50% off.

That's what the children are doing. They're giving into the anger of adults. And that's how punishment has traditionally worked throughout history. Children contain adults' anger to make the world make sense for both them and the adults. The punishment is not the running. The punishment is not standing up for yourself, not reflecting the emotions of a person who is out of order. It's a voluntary punishment. And of course, there's the practical side: not voluntarily agreeing would lead to greater social problems. So, there's a sense of resignation. It's forcing children to not only contain the adult's emotions but their own. They have to sublimate and control their emotions for the long-term good of their lives. They can't blow up. Adults in their lives can.

It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.
 
2012-10-06 07:12:44 PM

meanmutton: Krieghund: I don't understand why a high school coach would need to discipline a kid. If the kid wants to do the work, let him play. If he doesn't, don't let him.

Stop being reasonable!

Even though studies uniformly say that coaches yelling at kids or punishing them with physical discipline is counterproductive at best, we need to continue to bully children because otherwise people might think we're gay or something.


[citation needed]

Seriously. There are thousands of years of history that refute your claim. Besides, we're talking about running laps here. Physical conditioning is not counter-productive.
 
2012-10-06 07:12:56 PM
Push-ups are now the primary form of correction for my 9 year old. he has a couple bad habits we're trying to break him of, and getting caught doing one of them he gets told to drop and give us 10.

He's either going to learn to stop or have arms like Schwarzenegger in his prime.
 
2012-10-06 07:15:38 PM
I didn't play a lot of (i.e., no) organized sports, so I don't understand why coaches punish kids for, say, missing free throws. To me, that just smacks of making a kid wear a dunce's cap for scoring low on a test. I can see consequences for not trying one's best, but for trying and failing? That just seems dickish and counter-productive.
 
2012-10-06 07:18:42 PM
Well you can't bench them, in high school they can sue for jeopardizing a college scholarship, in college, they can sue for jeopardizing their chances at being drafted.
 
2012-10-06 07:22:09 PM
The bottom line is this is common farking sense.

Running laps, pushups, etc. in and of themselves are a good discipline techinique. It's when coaches take it to an extreme that problems start. Then everybody goes overboard and goes to the opposite extreme and make sweeping changes instead of just rectifying a specific situation. If people just used some basic common sense it would make so many things so much easier.

/know it's a pipe dream though
 
2012-10-06 07:23:28 PM

TomD9938: Back in the mid-eighties, our varsity soccer coach used to make players do a 1 lap sprint to the schools East wall during practice whenever an attempted shot sailed high over the crossbar.

Needless to say, we rarely scored during games with any shot above the waist.


In other words, the coach discouraged you from trying to make those top corner shots--difficult to make, but even more difficult to save. See, I don't get that.
 
2012-10-06 07:30:27 PM
A good coach can get his players to buy in on the team ethos.
His team will train hard for each other. I played in such a team.
When we farked up we voluntarily ran laps. We all knew by the standards the entire group set in place.
3 times champs in a row.
This is a poor coach.
 
2012-10-06 07:37:24 PM

Mike_LowELL: haha look at all thes old ppl sittin around sayin "BACK IN MY DAY" LOLLL BACK IN YOU'RE DAY U WERE READING BOOKS, U LOOSERDS. funny how u all talk about how tough u are but not 1 of u could hang wit me in call of duty modern warfare 3 (soon to be call of duty black ops 2)...yea ill run laps around u...on xbox live loll. my mom told me too stop playing that game but i told her she was ugly. if your generation's so tough why didn't she do anything about it? yea thot so loll back to modern warfare 3 gotta get 18th prestiged so i can brag about it on gamefaqs


Meow was more amusing.

At any rate, when someone stepped out of line while I was playing HS varsity baseball everyone had to run. And our laps were backward, which is much more tiring. Needless to say it was a punishment that did not have to used much because while the coach can only make you run, your teammates can make your life hell all day.

None of that matters here though because the full story behind this is a little more significant than a coach making some kids run a few extra laps.
 
2012-10-06 07:44:15 PM
When we are talking about punishment everyone remember there are two kinds:

1. Positive punishment- you add something bad (extra laps, spanking)

2. Negative punishment- you take away something good (lose your cell phone, lose recess, don't get to play at the game)

So yes, you CAN have discipline without physically OR mentally hurting someone. So stop saying that we are too soft these days and aren't disciplining just because parents aren't spanking. Aren't violent crime rates down?

And studies for animals (which are very different from humans!!!) show that they learn faster through reward. (When animal trainers only using positive reinforcement have a dog that does something bad, they redirect the bad behavior into good behavior.) So take that how you will and maybe someone who studies how humans learn can come explain what works best for children.
 
2012-10-06 07:44:24 PM
Laps? Laps? Laps are for pussies. We had this huge ass hill next to our practice field. If you farked up at all, even an offsides or false start, you ran 10 hills. If you really pissed the coach off, he'd make you stand at attention and sock you in the gut. If you got flagged during a game (fri nights) they would make you come in at 6AM on Saturday and run hills for an hour or so.

Guess what? Not only did we NOT complain, we learned to pay attention and not make stupid mental mistakes that would cost our team a game. If that's not for you, then join the goddamn marching band. If you are playing a sport, you shouldn't be afraid of a little running.

/dnrtfa
/I'm 40 and still run hills for exercise.
 
2012-10-06 07:44:30 PM
I didn't play any sports in school, but if I had and the coach made me run as a punishment and the rest of the team didn't have to run, I would have told my dad and he would have gotten the coach fired.
 
2012-10-06 07:47:15 PM

cbathrob: In other words, the coach discouraged you from trying to make those top corner shots--difficult to make, but even more difficult to save


Pretty much. It was a stupid move by an otherwise good coach.

He was a baseball coach in real life.

/ and an algebra teacher...
 
2012-10-06 07:47:47 PM

xl5150: I didn't play any sports in school, but if I had and the coach made me run as a punishment and the rest of the team didn't have to run, I would have told my dad and he would have gotten the coach fired.


You are everything that is wrong with this world. Not for being a pussy, but for being a troll.

0/10.
 
2012-10-06 07:47:57 PM
discipline != punishment.

Discipline instills order.

There is no reason why running laps should not be an acceptable way to promote order.
 
2012-10-06 07:49:38 PM

swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run.[snip]
It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.


What do you suggest would be a better alternative? I ask because you seem genuinely concerned. Please keep in mind that we're talking about kids who are disrupting the activities of a larger group.
 
2012-10-06 07:53:11 PM

red5ish: swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run.[snip]
It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.

What do you suggest would be a better alternative? I ask because you seem genuinely concerned. Please keep in mind that we're talking about kids who are disrupting the activities of a larger group.


That is really easy- if you want discipline then you take away privileges like they don't play in the game this week, or they are no longer on the starting line, or if they mess up 3 times they are off the team.

If you don't want punishment at all then you just institute a system where only the kids who are good get to play.
 
2012-10-06 07:53:30 PM
Running laps as a form of discipline, on a sports team, is "wrong" now? My God. The pussification of our country is happening at an advanced rate. I occassionaly have to pick my grandkids (8 and 10 years old) up from school. It's amazing to see all the obese kids come out of that school. When I was in school you might have had one or two "fat kids" in your class. Now the "fat kids" are the majority.

Kick you kids off of the couch, people. It wouldn't hurt them to run a few laps.
 
2012-10-06 07:55:52 PM

HectorSchwartz: Laps? Laps? Laps are for pussies. We had this huge ass hill next to our practice field. If you farked up at all, even an offsides or false start, you ran 10 hills. If you really pissed the coach off, he'd make you stand at attention and sock you in the gut. If you got flagged during a game (fri nights) they would make you come in at 6AM on Saturday and run hills for an hour or so.

Guess what? Not only did we NOT complain, we learned to pay attention and not make stupid mental mistakes that would cost our team a game. If that's not for you, then join the goddamn marching band. If you are playing a sport, you shouldn't be afraid of a little running.

/dnrtfa
/I'm 40 and still run hills for exercise.


Ha! My team's hill was so bad they made a movie about it: Link

/Ok, so maybe not.
 
2012-10-06 08:06:27 PM
My wrestling coach in high school preferred pushups over running, since running meant you had to leave the mat room and someone had to keep an eye on you. By January every year, I would get so good at pushups that they were basically a rest period for me.
 
2012-10-06 08:07:03 PM
If they are being properly conditioned then extra laps will hinder their progress.

That said, I could give a shiat about voluntary sports programs asking kids to run, voluntarily (which is what any accepted punishment in a voluntary program is).

Dnrtfa.
 
2012-10-06 08:13:12 PM

xl5150: the coach made me run as a punishment and the rest of the team didn't have to run


Did the rest of the team fark up, or just you? Man up and take your lumps, cupcake.

Unpleasant consequences teach you not to make mistakes when other people are counting on you.

xl5150: I would have told my dad and he would have gotten the coach fired.


Wow, you're a self-important whiny little biatch.
 
2012-10-06 08:14:02 PM
About 30 years ago, my freshman basketball team had the JV football coach as its coach. In preseason, he got us in the best shape of our lives, then or since. His favorite thing was having us run up, across, and down each set of bleachers on either side of the gym, over and over and over. Basketball-wise, he was a terrible coach and we sucked because we spent 80% of the time running and conditioning instead of playing basketball. We could fast break but couldn't hit a jump shot.

We had a star football player that wanted to play, and he came on board after football season was done. The coach's first act with him was to attempt to run him ragged, even though he was in great shape coming from football. He told him, "See ya!", turned around and left, never coming back.

After an 0-7 start and a 9 pm game on a Friday night, he decided in his infinite wisdom to practice us the following morning at 7 am, completely changing the system we had committed to memory and executed fairly well, to this complex system no one could figure out in the five minutes he gave us to explain it and master it. After I made a wrong move on one of these new plays, he told me to hit the stairs without ever telling me what I did wrong. By that time I was in such good shape that I loved to run and knew what a runner's high meant. So I ran and ran and ran. He stopped me and asked me if I knew what I did wrong and I told him no and kept running for another 20 minutes. He finally stopped me and told me to get back in there and actually play some basketball. The punishment actually had the opposite effect and the conditioning was already there.

He was an idiot, I think we won 2 games all season and I never played organized basketball again because of it. The next season with mostly the same guys and a good basketball coach they won a lot of games.
 
2012-10-06 08:16:28 PM

spidermilk: red5ish: swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run.[snip]
It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.

What do you suggest would be a better alternative? I ask because you seem genuinely concerned. Please keep in mind that we're talking about kids who are disrupting the activities of a larger group.

That is really easy- if you want discipline then you take away privileges like they don't play in the game this week, or they are no longer on the starting line, or if they mess up 3 times they are off the team.

If you don't want punishment at all then you just institute a system where only the kids who are good get to play.


And how do you determine who is good? If you can't make them run laps or do any other form of physical exercise, you'll have a team full of doughy brown-nosers who never break a rule, and also can't run a 15-hour mile.
 
2012-10-06 08:19:03 PM
My sons soccer coach makes you run two laps if you arrive late at practice. You know what that does? Warms you up.

He had a club coach a couple of years ago that would make you run up and down the bleachers until you were willing to tell the coach that you were going to do what you were told during practice. The length of time that you spent running up and down was strictly up to you. I kind of liked that one.
 
2012-10-06 08:23:41 PM
The pussification continues.

/got heat stroke from punishment laps.
//learned my lesson.
 
2012-10-06 08:29:32 PM
So some folks think making athletes run as punishment is reasonable, promotes conditioning and creates a positive team environment. Others find it barbaric, and claim it is clearly counterproductive.

If only there were some way we could pit a team using the first method against a team using an alternate method in some competitive event and keep score to see which method seems to actually be working. I'll bet a lot of coaches would opt to use the winning method.
 
2012-10-06 08:36:13 PM

kudayta: My wrestling coach in high school preferred pushups over running, since running meant you had to leave the mat room and someone had to keep an eye on you. By January every year, I would get so good at pushups that they were basically a rest period for me.


When I was in around 7th grade or so I went to a weeklong basketball camp at the Naval Academy in Annapolis. The gyms and the dorms we lived in weren't air conditioned and we drilled and ran laps all day long in the dead of summer. Every time you missed a shot during drills or practice you did 10 pushups. Most kids couldn't cut it and went home early. I came out probably in better shape than any other kid in my middle school. I miss having that kind of strict training regiment. It's good for you. Prepared me for 2-a-days during freshman football. They were a piece of cake.
 
2012-10-06 08:39:58 PM

swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run


What planet are you from ?
 
2012-10-06 08:46:39 PM
And these are the people that the FarkLibTards over in that doody Politics tab like to have in charge.
 
2012-10-06 09:10:23 PM

swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run. The person decides to run to appease the person making the demand to maintain the social construct that one person can control another. In truth, the person asking the other to run is the one who is out of control: they want something, but they aren't in control of whether what they want happens or not.

The one who runs is voluntarily containing the other's psychological state. The only true control is something like sitting on another person (assuming you're heavy enough to restrict the other's movement). Everything else is agreement. It would be as if an angry, rude customer comes into your store and demands a cake 50% off and you contain that person's emotions, don't create a reflector of their emotions but rather absorb them, and give them the cake at 50% off.

That's what the children are doing. They're giving into the anger of adults. And that's how punishment has traditionally worked throughout history. Children contain adults' anger to make the world make sense for both them and the adults. The punishment is not the running. The punishment is not standing up for yourself, not reflecting the emotions of a person who is out of order. It's a voluntary punishment. And of course, there's the practical side: not voluntarily agreeing would lead to greater social problems. So, there's a sense of resignation. It's forcing children to not only contain the adult's emotions but their own. They have to sublimate and control their emotions for the long-term good of their lives. They can't blow up. Adults in their lives can.

It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.


Aren't you just a precious little snowflake? I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you should probably put down your smart phone and pay attention to the fry-o-lator or your manager might punish you and shatter your delicate psyche.
 
2012-10-06 09:19:10 PM

swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run. The person decides to run to appease the person making the demand to maintain the social construct that one person can control another. In truth, the person asking the other to run is the one who is out of control: they want something, but they aren't in control of whether what they want happens or not.

The one who runs is voluntarily containing the other's psychological state. The only true control is something like sitting on another person (assuming you're heavy enough to restrict the other's movement). Everything else is agreement. It would be as if an angry, rude customer comes into your store and demands a cake 50% off and you contain that person's emotions, don't create a reflector of their emotions but rather absorb them, and give them the cake at 50% off.

That's what the children are doing. They're giving into the anger of adults. And that's how punishment has traditionally worked throughout history. Children contain adults' anger to make the world make sense for both them and the adults. The punishment is not the running. The punishment is not standing up for yourself, not reflecting the emotions of a person who is out of order. It's a voluntary punishment. And of course, there's the practical side: not voluntarily agreeing would lead to greater social problems. So, there's a sense of resignation. It's forcing children to not only contain the adult's emotions but their own. They have to sublimate and control their emotions for the long-term good of their lives. They can't blow up. Adults in their lives can.

It's bad pedagogy. And it's shaming when children should be forming a sense of autonomy and initiative. It's good pedagogy if you want bitter but resigned slaves. But not if you want happy children who become happy adults.

/No, I am not a troll.


Well, I am. And I hope you and everybody who even understands what you wrote up there goes to boot camp hell and has to do pointless physical exercise until you puke up pieces of your trachea, then wake up and do the same thing for eternity. Because America.
 
2012-10-06 09:28:28 PM

cbathrob: I didn't play a lot of (i.e., no) organized sports, so I don't understand why coaches punish kids for, say, missing free throws. To me, that just smacks of making a kid wear a dunce's cap for scoring low on a test. I can see consequences for not trying one's best, but for trying and failing? That just seems dickish and counter-productive.


Fark how hard you tried. Real life is about delivering. If you can't deliver every time, you ought to expect your time in the real world to be embarrassing, exhausting, and pointless.
 
2012-10-06 09:54:19 PM
This what we had to run when we pissed off the coach

10 miles up, find a rock with your name on it, grab it, 10 miles down. I only had to run it once.
 
2012-10-06 09:54:35 PM

i upped my meds-up yours: cbathrob: I didn't play a lot of (i.e., no) organized sports, so I don't understand why coaches punish kids for, say, missing free throws. To me, that just smacks of making a kid wear a dunce's cap for scoring low on a test. I can see consequences for not trying one's best, but for trying and failing? That just seems dickish and counter-productive.

Fark how hard you tried. Real life is about delivering. If you can't deliver every time, you ought to expect your time in the real world to be embarrassing, exhausting, and pointless.


Yeah, well I'm just a big loser anyway, so there you are.
 
2012-10-06 09:57:00 PM
oops

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-06 10:03:54 PM

Krieghund: [suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com image 379x214]

I don't understand why a high school coach would need to discipline a kid. If the kid wants to do the work, let him play. If he doesn't, don't let him.


That is thee perfect reason to allow the extra laps. The kid doesn't want to do them? Quit. Or face the consequences of disobeying the coach.
 
2012-10-06 10:05:22 PM

cbathrob: i upped my meds-up yours: cbathrob: I didn't play a lot of (i.e., no) organized sports, so I don't understand why coaches punish kids for, say, missing free throws. To me, that just smacks of making a kid wear a dunce's cap for scoring low on a test. I can see consequences for not trying one's best, but for trying and failing? That just seems dickish and counter-productive.

Fark how hard you tried. Real life is about delivering. If you can't deliver every time, you ought to expect your time in the real world to be embarrassing, exhausting, and pointless.

Yeah, well I'm just a big loser anyway, so there you are.


Learn to take it seriously.
 
2012-10-06 10:15:11 PM
Farking people.

When I played HS Football (in the 80's, LATE 80's... fark you!), roster "depth rankings" among linemen and linebackers during summer practices were settled by the two fully padded players being closed into one of our chainlink baseball dugouts... first one to have a knee touch the ground lost. Some of them got pretty brutal. We also ALL ran when anybody farked up... that kinda peer pressure puts and end to that shiat quick.

It worked out fine for us... and everybody knew it went on. Parents didn't like it? Fine... take your kid off the team.

Now... kids are all a bunch of friggin' pansies... it;s scary.

/Private school
//Played with and against quite a few future NFLers.
 
2012-10-06 10:18:01 PM

i upped my meds-up yours: cbathrob: i upped my meds-up yours: cbathrob: I didn't play a lot of (i.e., no) organized sports, so I don't understand why coaches punish kids for, say, missing free throws. To me, that just smacks of making a kid wear a dunce's cap for scoring low on a test. I can see consequences for not trying one's best, but for trying and failing? That just seems dickish and counter-productive.

Fark how hard you tried. Real life is about delivering. If you can't deliver every time, you ought to expect your time in the real world to be embarrassing, exhausting, and pointless.

Yeah, well I'm just a big loser anyway, so there you are.

Learn to take it seriously.


I take my loserhood very seriously, thank you very much. I'm not so much as cracking a smile right now.
 
2012-10-06 10:36:34 PM
Another casualty of a spreading philosophy that values feeling good over doing well.
 
2012-10-06 10:36:42 PM

Lone Stranger: YOU WILL RUN LAPS UNTIL YOU PUKE! THEN AFTER YOU PUKE YOU'LL RUN UNTIL YOU POOP YOUR PANTS.


I ran 5 miles without stopping once and puked two hours later in the movie theater while on a date. It was a James Bond movie, the one with the blonde JB.
 
2012-10-06 10:38:45 PM
Character is submission. All else is lies.
 
2012-10-06 10:44:35 PM

Millennium: Another casualty of a spreading philosophy that values being good over doing well.


FTFY. Placing ethical subtleties over moral absolutes is far more dangerous than the mere pursuit of dumb pleasure.
 
2012-10-06 10:49:22 PM
I went to an overseas British boarding school run on stern lines. For the slightest infraction students were given black marks. Accumulate 3 and you had 3 punishment laps. That is what they were called, as they were intended as punishment. The course was up and down hills, through streets, it was exhausting. Typically I had to do 12 laps by Saturday afternoon. It is a testament to my innately poor physique that I did not develop into a great cross-country athlete. Went back for a reunion 3 years ago, all were disappointed to learn that laps had been dropped some time ago. If this trend keeps up there may come a time when geriatrics who grew up under harsher regimes are a match for teenagers.
 
2012-10-06 11:08:38 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: Farking people.

When I played HS Football (in the 80's, LATE 80's... fark you!), roster "depth rankings" among linemen and linebackers during summer practices were settled by the two fully padded players being closed into one of our chainlink baseball dugouts... first one to have a knee touch the ground lost. Some of them got pretty brutal. We also ALL ran when anybody farked up... that kinda peer pressure puts and end to that shiat quick.

It worked out fine for us... and everybody knew it went on. Parents didn't like it? Fine... take your kid off the team.

Now... kids are all a bunch of friggin' pansies... it;s scary.

/Private school
//Played with and against quite a few future NFLers.


We had the nutcracker drill to determine the depth rankings for linemen, and basically the nutcracker was "two man enter, one man leaves."

And as far as running laps, by the end of the season I could run with most of the cross country team. We would run laps if we were late to practice for any reason, if you missed practice with a reason you had to run laps, if you missed practice with out a reason to had a choice, either run all practice for a week and not play on Saturday or get kicked off the team. In practice if any of the offensive linemen jumped offsides during scrimmages, the whole offensive line had to run from one end of the practice field and back. You miss a tackle, block, drop a pass, fumble or throw an interception during practice, guess what? You ran for each one of those after practice.

Guess what happened? There was a lot of running in the beginning of the season but almost none by the end. After the first 2 or so weeks of practice knowbody was late or missed any practices and the Freshman, Sophomore, an JV teams always were 1 or 2 in the conference and the Varsity team won 2 state championships and 4 conference championships while I was in high school.
 
2012-10-06 11:28:34 PM

ongbok: We had the nutcracker drill to determine the depth rankings for linemen, and basically the nutcracker was "two man enter, one man leaves."


Damn right.

I was a little concerned as I got a little older and chunkier that I would need to be 'afraid' of the more athletic, younger set when I found myself in situations with "bad crowds"... as I often do.

It's good to know that I could probably still kick the crap out of a 21 year old kid because he's never had his limits tested by this soft and fluffy world we encase our kids in.

/those MMA junkies though... yikes... "Sorry about that Sir,... may I get you a beer?"
 
2012-10-06 11:42:18 PM

ManateeGag: we are raising a nation of pussies.


Correction. We are being molded into a nation of docile, non-combative, pussies.
 
2012-10-06 11:52:55 PM

HectorSchwartz: Laps? Laps? Laps are for pussies. We had this huge ass hill next to our practice field. If you farked up at all, even an offsides or false start, you ran 10 hills. If you really pissed the coach off, he'd make you stand at attention and sock you in the gut. If you got flagged during a game (fri nights) they would make you come in at 6AM on Saturday and run hills for an hour or so.

Guess what? Not only did we NOT complain, we learned to pay attention and not make stupid mental mistakes that would cost our team a game. If that's not for you, then join the goddamn marching band. If you are playing a sport, you shouldn't be afraid of a little running.

/dnrtfa
/I'm 40 and still run hills for exercise.


The marching band will have you running laps while clanging cymbals above your head.

/called "cymbal laps"
//cures just about everything that ails ya.
 
2012-10-07 12:11:42 AM
www.examiner.com
 
2012-10-07 12:26:36 AM

xl5150: I didn't play any sports in school, but if I had and the coach made me run as a punishment and the rest of the team didn't have to run, I would have told my dad and he would have gotten the coach fired.


lemme guess, you were a piccolo player in the band?
 
2012-10-07 12:27:07 AM
This was clearly not corporal punishment, the difference between corporal punishment and this is that this kid could have just stopped running anytime he damned well pleased. God forbid that a kid learns that his words and actions have consequences.
 
HBK
2012-10-07 12:37:16 AM
I remember running dozens of laps for misconduct, etc. I would think to myself, "This is bullshiat, I could stop running at any time, but I'd have to quit the team." I never wanted to quit.

So as far as kids having to run laps, they always have a choice.
 
2012-10-07 12:37:21 AM
Maybe you idiots, and subby, should actually read the PDF about the incident before jumping to conclusions. But I guess that's too much to ask.
 
2012-10-07 12:56:54 AM

bVork: Maybe you idiots, and subby, should actually read the PDF about the incident before jumping to conclusions. But I guess that's too much to ask.


Maybe you should stop trying to turn everyone else into a bunch of docile pussies because one coach took it to an extreme.
 
2012-10-07 12:58:20 AM

bVork: Maybe you idiots, and subby, should actually read the PDF about the incident before jumping to conclusions. But I guess that's too much to ask.


It's time to separate the wheat from the chaff, the men from the boys, the awkwardly feminine from the possibly Canadian.
 
HBK
2012-10-07 01:09:04 AM

bVork: Maybe you idiots, and subby, should actually read the PDF about the incident before jumping to conclusions. But I guess that's too much to ask.


wtf are you talking about? There's no pdf. in the article.
 
2012-10-07 01:10:38 AM

bVork: Maybe you idiots, and subby, should actually read the PDF about the incident before jumping to conclusions. But I guess that's too much to ask.


he had to repeat some comments he made about the varsity team *to* the varsity team, when they got overly agitated the coach said "enough" and it was "done", which I interpret to mean that he was restraining the varsity players from making further threats. He still hadn't actually apologized so he then had to run for about 20-25 minutes and all told ran less than three miles, that is *not* what I'd call intense, even with hill sprints thrown in. A high school athlete should have been fine. He then went home and told his mother he had been running for 2 hours, video evidence disproved this. He also had a running partner, a varsity player doing extra conditioning because he was overweight. The overweight student said that the complainant was much faster than him and they had breaks between runs, the only even slightly troubling bit is that over the course of no more than a half an hours running he may or may not have had a water break.

The complainant stopped running at some point and was told by the coach that this was his conditioning and if he didn't want to continue he should turn in his pads. The horror. He ended up walking off the field and dis-enrolling from the school a few days later.

There is a bit where he is accused of knowing about a hazing incident and other student misconduct and glossing over it, that is pretty unprofessional, but everything else seems to fall within the purview of using naughty language and hurting peoples feelings.

This is the coach of a sport dedicated to young men punishing themselves physically for a delighted crowd, one so violent that the players must wear protective armor to play, and we are worried about the coaches potty mouth? Or that some weak willed kid who made public comments disparaging his own team and then quit because he had to run a couple of miles?
 
HBK
2012-10-07 01:11:17 AM
If you're talking about this pdf, I really don't see the problem with having a kid run an extra 30 minutes (with breaks) after practice.
 
2012-10-07 01:15:02 AM

qualtrough: I went to an overseas British boarding school run on stern lines. For the slightest infraction students were given black marks. Accumulate 3 and you had 3 punishment laps. That is what they were called, as they were intended as punishment. The course was up and down hills, through streets, it was exhausting. Typically I had to do 12 laps by Saturday afternoon. It is a testament to my innately poor physique that I did not develop into a great cross-country athlete. Went back for a reunion 3 years ago, all were disappointed to learn that laps had been dropped some time ago. If this trend keeps up there may come a time when geriatrics who grew up under harsher regimes are a match for teenagers.


Well, with your handle, you're lucky you're not doing time on the gallows for murdering Dr. Crippen's wife...
 
2012-10-07 02:02:09 AM

HBK: If you're talking about this pdf, I really don't see the problem with having a kid run an extra 30 minutes (with breaks) after practice.


That is some of the dumbest crap I have ever read.

The kid insulted the varsity team and before anything got out of hand the coach stepped in and made the kid own up to his actions in front of the people he offended, then gave the people he offended a chance to let him know how they felt, told everybody it was over and then punished him for it. That sounds to me like a very good teaching moment for the kid.
 
2012-10-07 02:09:27 AM
Except for the part where he punished the kid to a far greater degree than players who had actually gotten arrested or assaulted people. And the part where the punishment only ended because the kid walked off the field. And the part where he refused to allow the kid water during the punishment. This wasn't a teaching moment. This was sadism and petty vengeance.
 
2012-10-07 03:20:10 AM

bVork: Except for the part where he punished the kid to a far greater degree than players who had actually gotten arrested or assaulted people. And the part where the punishment only ended because the kid walked off the field. And the part where he refused to allow the kid water during the punishment. This wasn't a teaching moment. This was sadism and petty vengeance.


Welcome to my favorites list.

/and not the good one.
 
2012-10-07 03:34:23 AM
The military has stopped using physical training as punishment, and they only deal with adults. They're typically ranked fairly high with respect to pragmatic discipline. You might want to ask them why they don't think it's it's a good idea before you apply the method to children.
 
2012-10-07 03:35:58 AM

swingerofbirches: You can't make someone run.


James Byrd, Jr. agrees
 
2012-10-07 03:40:23 AM

MaxSupernova: all the girls told the coaches bye, hugged them and all the things you would do towards a person you like


That's exactly what you'd expect from a person that was abused and then manipulated into believing that abuse is a consequence of love.

I'm not saying discipline is abuse, but let's not pretend that hugs and social niceties are evidence that abuse has not occurred.
 
2012-10-07 03:42:47 AM
Am I the only one concerned by attorney's statement that there are different standards for what constitutes corporal punishment based on the gender of the students involved?
 
2012-10-07 04:13:10 AM
You can't make someone run.


Yeah, I never get that one either. Sure he can say you bad, you now do 15 laps. But after I do a halfassed half lap and then sit down, what now?

/I guess supension is the answer
//which I would take anytime over laps
///pussys indeed
 
2012-10-07 07:54:47 AM
Way to go Libs.

You are getting what you want.
 
2012-10-07 08:23:28 AM
"I am not punishing you; but I have traded you to the cross country team for the afternoon."
 
2012-10-07 09:21:57 AM

profplump: The military has stopped using physical training as punishment, and they only deal with adults. They're typically ranked fairly high with respect to pragmatic discipline. You might want to ask them why they don't think it's it's a good idea before you apply the method to children.


Pragmatic discipline isn't necessarily a benign process. The team member or soldier does have to have his sense of self-worth cut down to the level of the organization, because that organization has to know he can be counted on to act as a machine under threat and stress.

Whatever damage might be done to the individual psychically is always an acceptable risk - just like physical damage. The difference is that physical injury never makes the individual more useful to the team, whereas without some level of psychic injury, he cannot be useful at all.

It's better than it was pre-Vietnam, when you had to undergo this kind of conditioning or society didn't consider you a man at all. There are other ways to grow up today, altho I imagine the ex-athletes on here might not agree.
 
2012-10-07 09:48:49 AM

profplump: MaxSupernova: all the girls told the coaches bye, hugged them and all the things you would do towards a person you like

That's exactly what you'd expect from a person that was abused and then manipulated into believing that abuse is a consequence of love.


I'm not saying discipline is abuse, but let's not pretend that hugs and social niceties are evidence that abuse has not occurred.


Oh geez man.....we're talking about practice not some battered women and children here. A three to five hour weekly "relationship" between coaches and kids in the public vs a family behind closed doors id not even comparable situations.

The handful of abused people I knew did not act any one way so I'd be very hesitant to use the phrase "exactly what you would expect"....they were much more reserved and stand offish usually.
 
2012-10-07 12:50:20 PM
What a lot you are refusing to recognize is that to a lot of your friends and neighbors, ends justify means. If it takes abuse to create winning teams, effective fighting units, competitive individuals, then that abuse ought not be treated as abuse.

It used to be that these were the values of all society, more important than any individual. A lot of your friends and neighbors still understand that and still believe.
 
2012-10-07 02:50:05 PM
Eponymous: lemme guess, you were a piccolo player in the band?

No, I wasn't in band.
 
HBK
2012-10-08 01:06:08 AM
There sure are a lot of bleeding heart pussies in here. If you don't want to run the laps, just quit. Which is what this kid did, after less than thirty minutes of exercise.

Then, this kid was such a pussy that instead of go home and lick his wounds, he and his mommy got litigious.

What a sad path this country is heading down.
 
2012-10-08 04:16:46 AM

MaxSupernova: Oh geez man.....we're talking about practice not some battered women and children here. A three to five hour weekly "relationship" between coaches and kids in the public vs a family behind closed doors id not even comparable situations.


How many hours a week does someone have to be abused and manipulated before it counts?

Like I said, I'm not arguing that discipline is abuse, but I refuse to believe that social nicety among the participants is evidence that abuse did not take place, which is the argument you're putting forth.
 
2012-10-08 04:20:08 AM

i upped my meds-up yours: Pragmatic discipline isn't necessarily a benign process.


I agree. And I'm not saying the military is the end-all-be-all of discipline, or that high-school sports require or should even strive for the same time of discipline. All I'm saying is the same folks who think physical training is good for discipline would typically consider the armed forces to be an example of a well-disciplined organization, and as such they should give serious weight to the rules used in that organization when forming rules for their own, including the rules that prohibit the use of physical training for disciplinary purposes.
 
2012-10-08 10:26:32 PM

profplump: MaxSupernova: Oh geez man.....we're talking about practice not some battered women and children here. A three to five hour weekly "relationship" between coaches and kids in the public vs a family behind closed doors id not even comparable situations.

How many hours a week does someone have to be abused and manipulated before it counts?

Like I said, I'm not arguing that discipline is abuse, but I refuse to believe that social nicety among the participants is evidence that abuse did not take place, which is the argument you're putting forth.


Social niceties where all activities are in public view.....yeah that's pretty much proof that no "abuse" is taking place. You are applying broad generalizations to a scenario you know nothing about.
 
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