Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Mother Jones)   Paul Ryan: "Let's make this country a tax shelter", like the Cayman Islands where we can sip drinks on the beach and count cash with our toes   (motherjones.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Paul Ryan, Cayman Islands, collective investment scheme, arms industries, capital formation, first world countries, McKinsey, beaches  
•       •       •

1842 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Oct 2012 at 1:07 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



80 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2012-10-05 03:50:34 PM  
Okay Mr Ryan, let's start with laying you off.
 
2012-10-05 03:52:04 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: CPennypacker: I'm all for providing tax incentives to keep American jobs here.

Lowering the corporate tax rate will not accomplish this.

Of course it will.


No it won't. Lowering the standard of living and wages to 3rd world levels would though.
 
2012-10-05 03:58:54 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Debeo Summa Credo: CPennypacker: I'm all for providing tax incentives to keep American jobs here.

Lowering the corporate tax rate will not accomplish this.

Of course it will.

No it won't. Lowering the standard of living and wages to 3rd world levels would though.


OMFG we finally found out what phase 2 is

t3.gstatic.com
 
2012-10-05 04:04:07 PM  

Jackson Herring: i.imgur.com


If you like Wayne White, you should see the movie "Beauty is Embarassing". On opening night in Denver, he was there in person to answer questions. It was a lot of fun.
 
Bf+
2012-10-05 04:10:39 PM  
He doesn't have time for math!
 
2012-10-05 04:23:20 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Smelly McUgly: FTA: What the past Republican budget says is bring those tax rates down to 25 percent on the corporate side, as well.

Here's what I don't get, and I may be wrong. Corporations have a rate of 30%, but there are enough loopholes that many corporations pay effectively zero, right?

So then what does the corporate tax rate matter in the end? I get the sense that corporate tax rates are kind of like net points for movie writers - there's always a way to say, "Oh, we have zero profits" through accounting tactics and the government/the writers never see any of that money anyway.

The point is that we're already effectively a tax haven for corporations, and it isn't doing me any good.

No, you are buying into left wing lies. GE had a negative tax rate for one year and that is the exple most often cited. The average all in corporate tax rate is 25%. This is reduced from the statutory rates due to loopholes and exemptions.

Both the GOP and Obama have proposed reducing loopholes/deductions and lowering the overall tax rate.

American loses jobs because of our relatively high corp tax rate. I don't know the specifics of Ryan's proposal, and knowjng him it probably goes too far, but most people are generally on board with lowering our overly high corporate tax rate.


I know that it's just Daily Caller, but...Link. It seems more common than you say it is.

America loses jobs because manufacturing costs are cheaper in other countries. You can pay less, not have to pay for benefits, etc. Well, that's an oversimplification. It's not SOLELY for this reason, but it is in large part for this reason.

This is an honest question: Can you make a coherent argument that lower corporate tax rates will create jobs regardless of external factors like manufacturing costs? I ask this because I have not seen an argument that does this, but there may well be one out there that I just haven't heard.
 
2012-10-05 04:32:45 PM  
The article says that the US is now a tax haven and also evil Romney uses off shore tax havens like the caymans. If the US is such a tax haven then why would Romney have to keep his money outside the US.
 
2012-10-05 04:54:25 PM  

cchris_39: If they did park money here, that would be a pretty big capital injection for our economy; money the banks could loan domestically, maybe even targeted lending.


Right they would have all that money to invest... OVERSEAS!!!

That's the problem in your plan. Credit is not currently the problem with our economy, it's we have no demand.
 
2012-10-05 05:18:51 PM  
Ant: FTFA: James Henry, a former chief economist at McKinsey & Co., describes offshore tax havens like the "bar scene in Star Wars."

"This what I typically see in a bar after I've had a few drinks."
 
2012-10-05 05:53:38 PM  

Smelly McUgly: Debeo Summa Credo: Smelly McUgly: FTA: What the past Republican budget says is bring those tax rates down to 25 percent on the corporate side, as well.

Here's what I don't get, and I may be wrong. Corporations have a rate of 30%, but there are enough loopholes that many corporations pay effectively zero, right?

So then what does the corporate tax rate matter in the end? I get the sense that corporate tax rates are kind of like net points for movie writers - there's always a way to say, "Oh, we have zero profits" through accounting tactics and the government/the writers never see any of that money anyway.

The point is that we're already effectively a tax haven for corporations, and it isn't doing me any good.

No, you are buying into left wing lies. GE had a negative tax rate for one year and that is the exple most often cited. The average all in corporate tax rate is 25%. This is reduced from the statutory rates due to loopholes and exemptions.

Both the GOP and Obama have proposed reducing loopholes/deductions and lowering the overall tax rate.

American loses jobs because of our relatively high corp tax rate. I don't know the specifics of Ryan's proposal, and knowjng him it probably goes too far, but most people are generally on board with lowering our overly high corporate tax rate.

I know that it's just Daily Caller, but...Link. It seems more common than you say it is.

America loses jobs because manufacturing costs are cheaper in other countries. You can pay less, not have to pay for benefits, etc. Well, that's an oversimplification. It's not SOLELY for this reason, but it is in large part for this reason.

This is an honest question: Can you make a coherent argument that lower corporate tax rates will create jobs regardless of external factors like manufacturing costs? I ask this because I have not seen an argument that does this, but there may well be one out there that I just haven't heard.


There are ALWAYS going to be exogenous factors, but holding all else equal, of course lower taxation will result in more production here.

As it works now, American companies are taxed in the US on worldwide profits (as opposed to most other countries that only tax on domestic profits). BUT, to the extent a company reinvests it's foreign profits it can indefinitely defer taxation. So transferring production to ireland effectively subjects profits on that business to their 12.5% rate rather than our 35% rate. What company wouldn't attempt to move profitable business to low tax jurisdictions where possible? If we were to lower taxes it would create less incentive to offshore production and profits.

Although tax law is much more complicated obviously, it really is rather intuitive that improving our competitiveness re tax rates would increase jobs relative to the status quo.
 
2012-10-05 06:10:02 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: GE had a negative tax rate for one year and that is the exple most often cited.


GE paid no taxes in either 2009, 2010 or 2011, and actually had rebates of several billion dollars in two of those years. What is this "one year" bullshiat?
 
2012-10-05 06:11:02 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Of course it will.


No it won't.

The corporate tax rate is the lowest its been in 80 years. How much lower does it need to be?
 
2012-10-05 06:18:00 PM  

Ishkur: Debeo Summa Credo: Of course it will.

No it won't.

The corporate tax rate is the lowest its been in 80 years. How much lower does it need to be?


Eliminate deductions, like, for every corporate entity, at whatever size. It prevents them from gaming whatever rules we put in (unless it's something simple like "THOU CANST DEDUCT PAYROLL, IF THOU SO CHOOSETH" and a few other SIMPLE rules). Lower the rate to...20%? 15?

What's the point where the big guys end up paying a shiatload more compared to now, and the small businesses pay relatively nothing? That's where I want the new rate.

// the first part is the suggestion - and frankly, I find it more and more appealing every day (though there are quibbles about which deductions to keep, and that's fine)
// the second part is my suggestion
 
2012-10-05 06:57:25 PM  

cchris_39: If they did park money here, that would be a pretty big capital injection for our economy;


Not nearly enough to make up for lost tax revenue from the necessary tax changes that would have to be done to make the US a tax haven.

Tax havens work because the size of their domestic economy is tiny in relation to the amount of foreign money invested in the country - Luxembourg, for example, has foreign investments 60 times larger than their GDP. To make a similar thing work for the US would require $900 trillion in foreign investment, which is 18 times larger than the entire world's money supply.

A very small nation can make a living being a tax shelter for a very large nation. In our case, we're simply too large to be a tax shelter - even if every nation invested every bit of their currency in the United States, we'd fall short by an order of magnitude.
 
2012-10-05 07:13:56 PM  
Hey I totally agree.
We can start with working people and work our way up.

Hey if you want a farking war to get at another countries resources you can pay for it yourself.

Hypnozombie
 
2012-10-05 07:37:59 PM  
Delaware is not a model for the nation.
 
2012-10-05 07:57:18 PM  
As a Caymanian I'm totally getting a kick out of these discussions.
 
2012-10-05 08:57:59 PM  
If I have learned one thing from this election it's that I need to subscribe to Mother Jones
 
x23
2012-10-05 10:03:21 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Between this guy and Walker, I no longer identify myself as "from Wisconsin" when I'm traveling. It's just too embarrassing at this point.


welcome to the club.

at one point Alaska was known for being the biggest and most remote state and being huge swaths of untouched natural beauty... now (even 4 years later) i still have to hear about Palin. normally the first question asked. still. in 2012.
 
2012-10-05 10:23:09 PM  
Don't pick on the Caymans, folks. They've got working class people slaving away there too. I saw a car up on blocks in a driveway there just like I would here in Missouri...it was a late model Jaguar...but still.
 
2012-10-05 10:35:46 PM  

Ishkur: Debeo Summa Credo: Of course it will.

No it won't.

The corporate tax rate is the lowest its been in 80 years. How much lower does it need to be?


Low enough to compete with other countries. Our tax rate is relatively high when compared with other industrialized countries.
 
2012-10-05 10:38:35 PM  

Ishkur: Debeo Summa Credo: GE had a negative tax rate for one year and that is the exple most often cited.

GE paid no taxes in either 2009, 2010 or 2011, and actually had rebates of several billion dollars in two of those years. What is this "one year" bullshiat?


Go look at their 10k filings and see what their cash outlays were for income taxes in each of those years. It's right at the bottom of the cash flow statements.
 
2012-10-06 01:02:45 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Low enough to compete with other countries. Our tax rate is relatively high when compared with other industrialized countries.


The nominal rate, yes. Factoring in deductions and credits, the actual effective corporate tax rate is in the bottom 25% among OECD nations. That's not even considering the relatively high VATs in most other first world nations.
 
2012-10-06 01:47:04 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Low enough to compete with other countries. Our tax rate is relatively high when compared with other industrialized countries.


You can't ever compete with the Caymans. Don't even try. And it is absolutely unacceptable for the United States to drive labor costs to third world levels to bring the jobs back home.

Tax rate is high, yet the revenue is so low. The problem isn't the tax rate, per se. The problem is actually collecting the taxes (getting rid of loopholes, subsidies and tax breaks/rebates/credits, also).

I have another idea: How about corporations pay their farking taxes for the sake of public health and wellbeing because it's the right thing to do.
 
2012-10-06 02:07:26 AM  

fringedmyotis: Didn't watch the video, but let me guess anyway: We need to radically lower tax rates for corporations, right? Those same big corporations that never pay anything close to the current tax rate?

Fark you, Ryan. Go suck some more Koch.


Wait, if corporations already pay $0 taxes then why do you care if their tax rate is lowered? I can't understand your line of reasoning.
 
2012-10-06 03:09:58 AM  
Years ago, Carlos Medcia said that paying taxes is what made America worth coming to. And joked that if Americans didn't pay any taxes, Mexico would be putting up a fence to keep the poor gringos out.
 
2012-10-06 10:11:41 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: So transferring production to ireland effectively subjects profits on that business to their 12.5% rate rather than our 35% rate.


You seriously think any company big enough to outsource to Ireland pays anything close to a 35% effective rate, after all the loopholes and deductions?

/gotta try to keep my snot in I'm laughing so hard
 
2012-10-06 11:24:00 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Slives: Lower corporate taxes will not bring in jobs. A company might setup a 'front office' mailbox here but they will continue to operate where the labor and that such is cheaper.

FTFY

This is how it works on the Cayman Islands:


You mean that there is something weird going on when you have 150000 companies headquartered in the same small office building?
 
2012-10-06 04:15:19 PM  

InfamousG: Delaware is not a model for the nation.


Then it's a good thing there's nobody too close to the reins of power from Delaware because...uh-oh.

Debeo Summa Credo: No, you are buying into left wing lies. GE had a negative tax rate for one year and that is the exple most often cited. The average all in corporate tax rate is 25%. This is reduced from the statutory rates due to loopholes and exemptions.

Both the GOP and Obama have proposed reducing loopholes/deductions and lowering the overall tax rate.

American loses jobs because of our relatively high corp tax rate. I don't know the specifics of Ryan's proposal, and knowjng him it probably goes too far, but most people are generally on board with lowering our overly high corporate tax rate.


The "closing loopholes" mantra is for chumps.

Close one loophole, and ten others open - in both the tax code and in regulations.

Instead, blow up corporate taxes and subsidies together, then tweak the high end of the income-tax code if needed. Having had that huge-ass tax compliance headache lifted from their shoulders, the WalmartExxonDisneys of the world are in less of a position to game the regulations that remain because more eyes will be specifically on the regulations and how they affect the businesses, instead of having to divide attention between regulations and the business tax code.

And then we'll have something closer to capitalism...which the rent-seeking weasels of K Street can't stand. 

We'll also have a better idea of what it is we're actually paying for our government, instead of having taxes on top of what we already pay hidden away in the cost of goods and services, hidden as lower compensation for workers, and hidden as lower returns on investment.
 
2012-10-08 10:35:35 AM  

vpb: Let's just have everything be free and not have any taxes at all!


If everything was free the government wouldn't need to collect taxes because everything they need to run the government would also be free.

Paul Ryan is a sooper geenius
 
Displayed 30 of 80 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter








In Other Media
  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report