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(Daily Mail)   Paralyzed woman with terminal brain cancer wants Doctors to remove her breathing tube and let her die relatively quickly and painlessly with dignity, but her parents are preventing that from happening because Jesus   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 119
    More: Sad, Long Island North Shore Hospital, North Shore, anxiolytics, Acp, Ms Lee  
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11103 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Oct 2012 at 2:07 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-05 12:20:59 PM
As a practicing Chirstian (Go ahead and flame on), I believe the parents views are very selfish. There is no sin in death. When it is your time, it is time. Let the daughter go in peace. Please?
 
2012-10-05 01:13:04 PM
I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, but if she is a legal adult and fully conscious why would her parents' wishes have any bearing on her care?

For people thinking the conflict is purely driven by religious motives (while ignoring grief and differences in culture as equally, if not greater, contributing factors), we all have some type of culture/belief system/ethics that determines our action and reaction to events in our lives. Sometimes those actions conflict with the actions of others, especially in emotionally charged situation as impending death of a family member. And I'd bet similar situations happen every day in hospitals across the country. That's why hospitals have ethics committees.
 
2012-10-05 01:14:44 PM
my grandmother had a Do Not Resuscitate order on file. she was in the hospital for a week alert and happy. when her heart finally gave out, my mother had to remind the hospital staff about the DNR. that had to be extremely difficult for her to do, but she and my dad watched as g-ma slowly slipped away... with quiet dignity. the same way she lived her life.

/my 2 cents
 
2012-10-05 01:46:34 PM

Farking Canuck: Bhruic: So you might be able to claim sick and evil, but they aren't being selfish.

Yes they are.

It is the victim's choice as to what religious beliefs she is going to follow and she either doesn't believe in magic or she doesn't believe that stopping man-made intervention is suicide. Either way the parents are selfishly overriding her choice!


Ok, do I really need to post the definition of selfish? To be selfish, the parents would have to be acting in their own interests. What do they gain by extending their daughter's torment? Nothing. There is no gain for them - whether they are correct in their beliefs or not. So by definition, they can't be acting selfishly.

What they are doing is all sorts of wrong, but let's label it the wrong it is, rather than trying to make it wrongs it isn't.
 
2012-10-05 01:52:18 PM
Suicide? If it hadn't been for all the plumbing the hospital put into this poor woman she'd be dead already. 100 years ago she might have made it only a few months before dying of "consumption" or whatever they called cancer back then, doped up on morphine.

My stepsister died from cancer a few years ago, and letting her go was the hardest thing her mother (a deaconess at her southern baptist church) had ever done. She had been diagnosed with lupus as an early teen (go ahead with the "it's not lupus" jokes - welcome to FARK) and had to deal with hospital stay after hospital stay, kidney transplants and other horrendous sh*t that I don't know I could have endured. Then there was the cancer that came back again and again and again. Finally after her umpteenth round of chemo she said "fark all this sh*t, let me go. I'm done". Her mother, who had gone through all this with her, agreed, and all treatment was stopped. The docs gave her enough painkillers to put down an entire herd of rhino, and her family was at her side when she passed away, laughing and talking and spending the hours she had left. She cussed like a drunken sailor when she was high.

She died one month shy of her 40th birthday.

I understand her parents want to keep her around, because they're her parents. But this religious fanaticism is bullsh*t. If they really loved her they would let her go rather than see her suffer.

/reason 1,987,564 why I hate the f*ck out of religion
//not faith, but religion
 
2012-10-05 01:52:42 PM
Religion is really given too much power in this country. The patient wants it ended, her doctors say she's lucid, and the doctors don't seem to think she will get better. Why is her parents' opinion important again? Oh wait, because other people agree with them based on what they think a 2000 year old book says when it at best only metaphorically touches upon the situation.

When my brother was in his last days, it's possible that a breathing tube could have extended his life. He was in the end stages of leukemia, so probably not very much extra life, but an outside shot. The doctors advised against a breathing tube because of the possible legal implications of removing it later. He agreed he wanted no heroic measures, as did my parents. I've always resented that the possible intrusion of fundies denied him one last shot. He was 25.

Religion is theoretically fine, but in many ways it seems like a virus. It just can't be kept to oneself way, way too often. It's often touted as a system of morality, but more often it seems like a set of loopholes to justify emotional or just bad thinking.

\happy friday?
 
2012-10-05 01:57:07 PM

Bhruic: Ok, do I really need to post the definition of selfish? To be selfish, the parents would have to be acting in their own interests. What do they gain by extending their daughter's torment? Nothing. There is no gain for them - whether they are correct in their beliefs or not. So by definition, they can't be acting selfishly.


And for some reason you cannot see how inflicting their religion on someone else is selfish.

They are making themselves happy by thinking that they are helping her into heaven. They are torturing here to achieve this goal.

She explicitly does not want it ... they are not helping her.

Again ... this is making the parents feel better and causing her to suffer horribly. It is 100% selfish.
 
2012-10-05 02:03:24 PM
The article doesn't clearly state that there is no hope for recovery -- or else I missed it but I assume, from the details, there is none.

Most people tend to forget that a paralyzed person usually has no feeling from the neck down. Some do, but most don't. Christopher Reeves had no feeling from the neck down.

Nothing works.

This means they can't control their bladder or bowels. They can't move their arms or legs and can't feel anything that happens to them. They can't scratch an itch. Can't use a TV remote. No sex. (1: no feeling there, 2: nothing works.) The majority require breathing assistance because without it, they'll suffocate. The automatic muscles which control the breathing no longer work.

I don't know if they can feel suffocation when it begins.

Most of the time, they lay alone in a room, with a TV on, accompanied by assorted machines that keep them alive. Food is usually delivered via naselgastric tube through the nose and into the stomach. Sometimes, a line is surgically inserted into the stomach through the abdominal wall.

Often this is done to prevent chocking, a danger when eating solid food and when the chest muscles no longer have the strength to cough the stuff out.

Interaction is limited. You just get to lay there, doing nothing, hour after hour, day after day.

Christopher Reeves found a purpose to keep himself going. Most don't. Treatment is tremendously expensive and many insurance companies have a set limit as to how much they'll pay out.

The person is susceptive to pneumonia, chest colds, bed sores, muscle atrophy and contractions. Basically, they can shrivel up, and the limbs twist into odd positions unless care is taken. Unused muscles loose mass. Tendons shrink.

They'll need a urinary, indwelling catheter, which will leave them prone to bladder infections, that can turn into kidney infections. They'll need to be physically moved and rolled every so many hours to keep their skin from breaking down where it touches the bed. They'll have to be cleaned by hand even with diapers. (For women, there's a little complication: the usually liquid feces, constrained by a diaper, makes it's way up into the vagina. This requires manual cleaning, can break down the membranes, cause vaginitis and a host of infections.)

An alternative is a colostomy, which requires surgery.
Young women will still have their period, meaning someone will have to take care of that. (Option: hysterectomy, which requires major surgery.)

However, the worst thing for most quadriplegics is NOT being able to interact. Just hours and hours of mind numbing solitude.

Personally, IMO, that's pure, unadulterated hell. The controversy over solitary confinement in prisons is a walk in the park compared to this. At least the prisoners can move about, feel things, eat real food, shout to each other and exchange messages and DO THINGS.

The psychological effects of this state, with insufficient stimulation, or even with stimulation, would naturally be major depression. Some people have just gone insane and delusional.

When there is no cure, no hope, I believe the person has the right to die. I also believe that Dr. Kevorkian's method was a lot more merciful than just removing breathing or feeding tubes and let them suffocate or starve to death.

With his method, the person just 'goes to sleep'. I suspect that the initial rush of the tranquilizer makes them feel good before passing out and they don't feel the heart stopping medication when it begins.
Something like Lethal Injection, only without the paralytic and activated by the person at a time of their choosing. It can be activated by a mouth switch. It's also IV drip, not pressurized injection.

Try and imagine the living hell this woman is in. Especially once the furor eases up, which it will in days or weeks, and less and less people come to visit her.

I think Kevorkian was ahead of his time. His device, IMO, is a lot better than letting them suffocate or starve to death and a whole lot quicker.

I understand the religious aspect, but some religions allow suicide. Plus, her folks need to consider what she is going through. From a vibrant, active, energetic life, to basically a head on a pillow in a small room.

BTW. Some patients can actually will themselves to die. This is rare, but real. It also helps if there is a no resuscitation order.
 
2012-10-05 02:11:40 PM
Religious busy bodies are disgusting people. This is like someone denying you your rights because they staunchly believe Mother Goose stories are real.
 
2012-10-05 02:20:06 PM

C18H27NO3: BoxOfBees: Beyond that I think we can be respectful enough of other cultures not to subject them to our own standards, even if they say stuff that's patently crazy, like the statement that removing a breathing tube is suicide.

Culture, sure. Irrationality not so much.
It's a shame this woman is unable to make the choice for herself. For all anyone knows she may want to just die and her family is doing her a disservice by not respecting that; albeit not knowing either way of course.


I'm really not sure why she's not able to make that call herself. Isn't she a legal adult? If the doctors say the meds aren't affecting her judgement, shouldn't she legally be the only person who can decide on her own medical care?
 
2012-10-05 02:32:22 PM

swangoatman: WhoGAS: I had to help kill my dad this year (on my birthday) and then a few months later, on my vacation, I had to help my mom and family decide to let my grandmother go as well. While that was going on, my aunt died alone because we were all at the other hospital.

I believe that a person should have the right to decide when and how they die. What I've seen this year is deplorable behavior by medical "professionals" who care only for the bottom line. This woman's decision should be respected.

Stay the F*ck away from me..


I try to stay the F*CK away from everyone these days.

2012

Turn 40
Dad dies (in front of me on birthday)
Sister is admitted to hospice care as her health deteriorates due to previous meth use (2 days after my dad died)
Mom gets cancer (diagnosed while visiting on vacation)
Brother gets 15th DUI (while I was there on vacation)
Grandmother falls, breaks hip, neck and head and dies days later (yeah, vacation)
Aunt has a heart attack, dies in hospital across town while family was at grandma's hospital (vacation)
Divorce is final
Bankruptcy was filed

Looks like a horrible list but I got my kids, ex got the money. I have a decent job (for today), my bills are paid, my children are happy, my fridge is stocked with food and drink and I still have an ounce of bud sitting here.

My life is actually pretty damn good if you ask me...I just don't do vacations or birthdays any more. :o)
 
2012-10-05 02:59:15 PM

WhoGAS: 2012

Turn 40
Dad dies (in front of me on birthday)
Sister is admitted to hospice care as her health deteriorates due to previous meth use (2 days after my dad died)
Mom gets cancer (diagnosed while visiting on vacation)
Brother gets 15th DUI (while I was there on vacation)
Grandmother falls, breaks hip, neck and head and dies days later (yeah, vacation)
Aunt has a heart attack, dies in hospital across town while family was at grandma's hospital (vacation)
Divorce is final
Bankruptcy was filed


Damn .... I thought I was having a bad year.

/at least there is the bright spot there with the divorce!
//kidding
///sorta
 
2012-10-05 03:10:58 PM
Pulling the plug seems to be the first choice. Because giving up is easy, and all that 'hope' stuff requires too much effort.
 
2012-10-05 03:42:04 PM

Saruman_W: Pulling the plug seems to be the first choice. Because giving up is easy, and all that 'hope' stuff requires too much effort.


Right ... so you better make the choice for them.

/you obviously know when the time is right!!
 
2012-10-05 03:48:59 PM

Another Government Employee: As a practicing Chirstian (Go ahead and flame on)


Ah, yes, the Chirstians... You're the guys that worship Jeuss Chirst, right? And your holy Bibel has old and new Tesatments (for former ripped off the Jwes)?

/What, a spelling flame was the best I could muster...
 
gja [TotalFark]
2012-10-05 04:01:41 PM

WhoGAS: swangoatman: WhoGAS: I had to help kill my dad this year (on my birthday) and then a few months later, on my vacation, I had to help my mom and family decide to let my grandmother go as well. While that was going on, my aunt died alone because we were all at the other hospital.

I believe that a person should have the right to decide when and how they die. What I've seen this year is deplorable behavior by medical "professionals" who care only for the bottom line. This woman's decision should be respected.

Stay the F*ck away from me..

I try to stay the F*CK away from everyone these days.

2012

Turn 40
Dad dies (in front of me on birthday)
Sister is admitted to hospice care as her health deteriorates due to previous meth use (2 days after my dad died)
Mom gets cancer (diagnosed while visiting on vacation)
Brother gets 15th DUI (while I was there on vacation)
Grandmother falls, breaks hip, neck and head and dies days later (yeah, vacation)
Aunt has a heart attack, dies in hospital across town while family was at grandma's hospital (vacation)
Divorce is final
Bankruptcy was filed

Looks like a horrible list but I got my kids, ex got the money. I have a decent job (for today), my bills are paid, my children are happy, my fridge is stocked with food and drink and I still have an ounce of bud sitting here.

My life is actually pretty damn good if you ask me...I just don't do vacations or birthdays any more. :o)


You, sir, get the prize for understanding a basic tenet of life. PERSPECTIVE.
I applaud you. I salute you. I raise a glass in commiseration with you.
YOU GET IT. So many simply do not.

When all is done and said you have made an outstanding effort at life.
It has thrown nothing but curves, knuckles and bean-balls at you yet you get up, dust off, and make ready for another swing.

Good on you! And I really f-ing mean that, sincerely.

Here's hoping for brighter tomorrows for you and yours.
 
2012-10-05 04:49:32 PM

gja: You, sir, get the prize for understanding a basic tenet of life. PERSPECTIVE.
I applaud you. I salute you. I raise a glass in commiseration with you.
YOU GET IT. So many simply do not.

When all is done and said you have made an outstanding effort at life.
It has thrown nothing but curves, knuckles and bean-balls at you yet you get up, dust off, and make ready for another swing.

Good on you! And I really f-ing mean that, sincerely.

Here's hoping for brighter tomorrows for you and yours.



I don't mean to make this thread about me (I really don't, the girl in the article needs the respect and attention she deserves) but I did want to say that what you said is about the nicest thing someone's said to me in years. Thank you for that. It means a lot to hear it.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2012-10-05 05:25:49 PM

WhoGAS: gja: You, sir, get the prize for understanding a basic tenet of life. PERSPECTIVE.
I applaud you. I salute you. I raise a glass in commiseration with you.
YOU GET IT. So many simply do not.

When all is done and said you have made an outstanding effort at life.
It has thrown nothing but curves, knuckles and bean-balls at you yet you get up, dust off, and make ready for another swing.

Good on you! And I really f-ing mean that, sincerely.

Here's hoping for brighter tomorrows for you and yours.


I don't mean to make this thread about me (I really don't, the girl in the article needs the respect and attention she deserves) but I did want to say that what you said is about the nicest thing someone's said to me in years. Thank you for that. It means a lot to hear it.


My point, for this thread, is this:
This body that they are maintaining so artificially has managed (against odds that make a wimp of most of us) to clearly make her wishes known.
And the people that have the unmitigated GALL and HUBRIS, the vanity of these people...!
They make me sick-up. They are abhorrent meddling farks.

This woman deserves the dignity which is due her. Let he go. Let her find her peace.
The peace that she has decided will only come with a release from life and the shackles of this existence.
If ANY of these people were TRULY Christian, they would grant her that. They are "Christian for the cameras", for show, for their vanity. For shame.
Even this poor woman, as messed up as she is, GETS IT! It is the quality of your life as YOU perceive it that matters, not anothers perception.
 
2012-10-06 07:09:23 PM
This is why I strongly encourage everyone to have a clear living will prepared, because anyone can get hit by a bus or similarly severely and permanently impaired any day. And for those who don't have a clear and undisputed primary legal next-of-kin they feel entirely comfortable with, to also set up a Power of Attorney appropriate to their situation and anticipated needs. (Specifics will vary by state; consult an actual lawyer or other knowledgeable legal expert.) Because when your untestated case hits probate or some other legal filter, they're not going to be interviewing your lover and close friends: your legal kin get first shot at you, and can usually fend off everyone who actually knows you. Especially when it comes to issues of life and death, I can't stress enough how vital these preparations are.
 
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