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(The American Interest)   Social Security runs in the red for a second straight year, but no biggy - our government's obligations are 100% backed by government obligations, which are backed by government obligations backed by government obligations   (blogs.the-american-interest.com) divider line 198
    More: Fail, social security, Capitol Hill  
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3335 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Oct 2012 at 10:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-04 11:13:54 AM
If you want your grandparents living in your garage give up on funding SS
 
2012-10-04 11:13:57 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: iheartscotch: I know you guys really don't like bush; but I like his idea for individual accounts; where you put your money and you have control over it after you are retired. If you have to pay into that account over a lifetime; you'd be set. And the government could still use that money for it's own purposes; as long as they paid 3% interest, and they guaranteed the account for the entire amount of money inside.

That doesn't functionally fix the problem any more than just telling Congress to stop farking picking money out of the savings fund and leaving IOUs.

Also, that idea completely eliminates the entire concept of it being a guaranteed safety net. If I have to put my own money in and I get 3% back why wouldn't I just open another IRA and enjoy tax benefits and more flexibility?


It would have to work like a savings account; the amount in your specific account wouldn't be affected; but they can still use that money, it works for banks.

I'd also be infavor for a provision stating that any monies borrowed from the accounts must be paid back within 90-120 days at 10% interest per every thirty days. The congress critters would never want to borrow from the accounts.

3% is spitballing; it could be more. It won't be guaranteed when the fund runs out of money. Some people either can't or won't open an IRA. Maybe it needs a provision stating that the account holder can't withdraw the whole sum at once .

/ I am open to suggestions
 
2012-10-04 11:15:29 AM

Ass Exploder: Does anyone seriously not understand that the federal government PRINTS MONEY and CANNOT POSSIBLY RUN OUT OF MONEY?

That there is not a limited supply of money in the world, it is printed and created out of nothing by the government?


Please tell me you're not this dumb.

Imagine two different scenarios:

* There are precisely ten dollar bills in the entire world. My product costs one dollar. You want to buy it. You have to amass ten percent of all the dollar bills in the world to do so.

* There are one million dollar bills in the world for every man, woman, and child. My product still costs one dollar. You only have to amass 0.0001 percent of the average wealth of a human being to purchase my product.

The value of a dollar varies. If you print more, they are easier for *somebody* to obtain (whether it's the trillionaire hoarding it all in a bank somewhere, or the bum who found one in a gutter.) Ergo the value is less. If you print less, they're harder for somebody to obtain, hence they have a higher value.

Printing more money doesn't fix anything.
 
2012-10-04 11:15:59 AM

JackieRabbit: Retarded right wing blog bullshiat. SS almost always pays out more than it collects in payroll taxes, especially when unemployment is at 8%. These taxes are invested by the SS Trust.

But it's pretty darn good trollin'!


Just in case you're being serious, the social security "trust fund" contains nothing but government IOUs. There's no actual money there.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:20 AM

bunner: GranoblasticMan: By the entire world? Yeah. I honestly can't think of a single country that doesn't use fractional-reserve banking.

Fiat currency. Giving poor people access to food and distractions since the wealthy figured out it was a good idea.©


Err, yeah. That's the term I was looking for.

/ Brain is working less than functional today
 
2012-10-04 11:16:26 AM

burning_bridge: Well if your boy Bush hadn't raided the fund to hand out OUR money to his rich asshole friends we wouldn't need to worry about this crap now, would we???


The 'raiding' of the trust fund was not started by Bush. It is how the SS laws have been structured for the last 30 years. Clinton did the same. In fact, if it was not for the SS surpluses being raided, Clinton would not have had any budgetary surpluses at all.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:32 AM
I'm thirty now. When I was 25, I saw that I was paying into a system that I will most likely never benefit from. It took me a few years but I have made peace with this fact.

I view Social Security in the same way I view communism: it sounds great on paper, but it doesn't quite work well in real life.

I don't care about your political beliefs, but if you're my age or younger and think that you'll be able to retire on Social Security alone, I've got some great ocean front property in Kansas I'd love to sell you.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:32 AM

Alonjar: iheartscotch: I know you guys really don't like bush; but I like his idea for individual accounts; where you put your money and you have control over it after you are retired. If you have to pay into that account over a lifetime; you'd be set. And the government could still use that money for it's own purposes; as long as they paid 3% interest, and they guaranteed the account for the entire amount of money inside.

/ but something that simple and sane will never happen

The problem is that you are relying on private equity investments by doing this. Imagine if you planned to retire in 2008... just when your investments lost 70% of their value.


It would have to work like a savings account, but with one major difference, your money is guaranteed for the entire amount. I'm not proposing investing that money.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:46 AM
And remember folks, the foreign employees of American companies who live in India, China, Vietnam, Malaysia... are not US citizens and do not pay SS tax. Only countries with a totalization agreement collects SS tax of US workers working in them on the behalf of the US. So as corporations move more and more jobs off shore, SS will be increasingly underfunded. But their profits are more important than your financial security in your golden years, so STFU and GTFO.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:52 AM

Cataholic: It's a good thing we have all those excess taxes tucked away and we can readily convert them back to cash in order to pay the benefits. Oh wait...


SS is solvent as-is for another 40 years or so, in anticipation of the Boomers slowly dying off. I think requiring a fund that draws down its surplus over four decades to be 100% liquid is a bit excessive.

It's not perfect, but government has enough problems without Social Security cracking the top 100.
 
2012-10-04 11:17:13 AM

Brostorm: People have been getting way more in benefits than they payed in for.ever. The system has never been sustainable.


Rank innumeracy and profound ignorance of public policy in 20 words. Nice job.
 
2012-10-04 11:18:34 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: Well then the SS funding shortfall gets pulled from the general fund. Not paying the obligations of the SS trust fund is akin to halting interest payments on the federal debt.

Regardless, the reason there's a funding shortfall now is that unemployment is so high and wages for those lucky enough to have jobs have been stagnant for 30 years. But you keeping harping on mythical problems and mythical solutions involving tax cuts for rich people, submitter - I'm certain one of them will sleep with you sometime this millennium.


No, the shortfall is because the government keeps borrowing the money and not paying interest. Damn thing should have $5.7 TRILLION dollars in it,* and the $250B+ a year interest would not only give Social Security a surplus, it would give it such a large surplus that we could cut the social security tax. Want to know how the national debt hurts us? This is it. Almost half the national debt is money owed to Social Security.

I'm not worried about working at Walmart when I'm 90. By then, you'll be able to get cyanide with a scrip and I'm sure I'll end it all some time before that.

*As of 2008 or so. I'm sure it's higher now.
 
2012-10-04 11:20:15 AM

Brostorm: Ass Exploder: Does anyone seriously not understand that the federal government PRINTS MONEY and CANNOT POSSIBLY RUN OUT OF MONEY?

That there is not a limited supply of money in the world, it is printed and created out of nothing by the government?

Yes, and money has a static vale that never changes. Are you an idiot?


No, he's not. It's been policy for years to print more dough, which is one of the leading factors of the dollar losing its value.

Believe you me, everyone will get everything they put in to social security back out-- it will just be essentially worthless.
 
2012-10-04 11:21:42 AM

Rich Cream: Brostorm: People have been getting way more in benefits than they payed in for.ever.


Both my parents died at age 65. Tell me again about how everyone gets more than they pay in again?


people != everyone
 
2012-10-04 11:24:45 AM
Soooooooooooo, abolish Social Security and give all the money to the rich?
 
2012-10-04 11:25:24 AM
Thanks Boomers, for not funding your own retirement. Good work as always.
 
2012-10-04 11:25:48 AM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: No, the shortfall is because the government keeps borrowing the money and not paying interest.


Wrong. All money that is collected in SS revenue and is not paid out goes into the SS trust fund. That money is used to buy interest bearing treasuries. The actual money is then tranferred to the general fund while the treasuries sit in the trust fund bearing interest.

Read more here
 
2012-10-04 11:26:10 AM

HeadLever: thurstonxhowell: Perhaps a box. With a lock securing it.

So you want to put all that money in a container where it will lose value over time as inflation eats away at it?

Sounds like a good way to invest for retirement with a negative ROI.


Fine, invest it in something, then. Just don't spend it. Letting it just be spent is a good way to not invest for retirement at all.
 
2012-10-04 11:26:32 AM

TsarTom: We're all going to be picking up trash in a Walmart parking lot when we're 90 aren't we?


No, we'll be fighting over trash in the Walmart parking lot.
 
2012-10-04 11:27:50 AM

LemSkroob: Thanks Boomers, for not funding your own retirement.


They paid into the system and have accumulated about 2.5 Trillion into the 'Trust Fund'. The boomers did thier part. It was the goverment that spent all of the money and left the Trust Fund as a stack of IOUs.
 
2012-10-04 11:28:08 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: bunner: Ah, ha ha. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

No.

If you weren't so dumb you'd realize there's nothing stopping you from converting your faith-money to some material thing. If you think it's such a bright idea to have precious metals and other resources, why not just go do that?

/ right... because it's actually a stupid idea and you know it.


I dunno... the money I spent on gold has yielded a 275% return.
 
2012-10-04 11:28:41 AM

HeadLever: The Jami Turman Fan Club: No, the shortfall is because the government keeps borrowing the money and not paying interest.

Wrong. All money that is collected in SS revenue and is not paid out goes into the SS trust fund. That money is used to buy interest bearing treasuries. The actual money is then tranferred to the general fund while the treasuries sit in the trust fund bearing interest.

Read more here


That's an IOU, government style.
 
2012-10-04 11:28:42 AM

HeadLever: That money is used to buy interest bearing treasuries. The actual money is then tranferred to the general fund while the treasuries sit in the trust fund bearing interest.


Those treasury bonds then represent a liability against the general fund. They're interest-bearing IOUs that the government gives itself.
 
2012-10-04 11:28:48 AM

thurstonxhowell: Fine, invest it in something, then.


Invest it where? Go on. I would like to know.
 
2012-10-04 11:29:29 AM
I'm cool with the GOp's reforms on one condition: Since my generation is the one getting screwed, we should be able to opt out of the taxes. why pay for something we will never use?
 
2012-10-04 11:30:35 AM

Tax Boy: If only there was some sort of income limit on paying the social security funding tax that could be raised.

If only.


lots of this. anyone have any numbers on the additional money that would go into SS if there was no income limit for paying into it? or know why there's an income limit in the first place? i'm too lazy to google.
 
2012-10-04 11:31:10 AM
You mean I might not get my $50/month when I am 67 in 2043?!?!?!?
 
2012-10-04 11:32:01 AM

HeadLever: thurstonxhowell: Fine, invest it in something, then.

Invest it where? Go on. I would like to know.


Buy gold.
 
2012-10-04 11:32:55 AM

thurstonxhowell: HeadLever: That money is used to buy interest bearing treasuries. The actual money is then tranferred to the general fund while the treasuries sit in the trust fund bearing interest.

Those treasury bonds then represent a liability against the general fund. They're interest-bearing IOUs that the government gives itself.


Exactly. That is why the SS trust fund is a part of the total goverment debt. It is considered Intragovernmental debt.

In years of SS deficit, these SS treasury bonds are dedeemed to pay out into the system. In order to do this, the acutal money has to come from the general fund. Since we are in a budgetary defict as well, we are basically swapping Intragovermental debt for public debt. Total debt does not change.
 
2012-10-04 11:33:29 AM

the801: know why there's an income limit in the first place?


There's a benefit limit, so there's an income limit. I don't have your numbers, but I do know that.
 
2012-10-04 11:34:26 AM

thurstonxhowell: HeadLever: thurstonxhowell: Fine, invest it in something, then.

Invest it where? Go on. I would like to know.

Buy gold.


I guess we could always fill Fort Knox back up.
 
2012-10-04 11:36:06 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: iheartscotch: I know you guys really don't like bush; but I like his idea for individual accounts; where you put your money and you have control over it after you are retired. If you have to pay into that account over a lifetime; you'd be set. And the government could still use that money for it's own purposes; as long as they paid 3% interest, and they guaranteed the account for the entire amount of money inside.

That doesn't functionally fix the problem any more than just telling Congress to stop farking picking money out of the savings fund and leaving IOUs.

Also, that idea completely eliminates the entire concept of it being a guaranteed safety net. If I have to put my own money in and I get 3% back why wouldn't I just open another IRA and enjoy tax benefits and more flexibility?


Not so what Bush proposed was only partial privatization not 100%. The Bush admisntration proposal was similat to what Sweden already did. The difference was in the amount privatized and how much a person had to set aside. 2.5% vs 4% and 18% vs 12% (6 and 6).

"Sweden's former pension system was a tax-financed, pay-as-you-go entitlement program, similar to the United States' Social Security program. And like in the systems in the United States and other industrialized nations, demographic and financial changes were straining Sweden's tax-and-transfer pension programs. There were only two solutions: Raise taxes and cut benefits to prolong solvency, or give workers private retirement accounts.

In Sweden, policymakers decided that privatization was the best solution. The new system has four key features:

Partial privatization. Workers can invest 2.5 percentage points of the 18.5 percent of their income that they must set aside for retirement. Soon workers will be able to choose the pension fund into which their funds will go.


Notional accounts. The remaining payroll tax funds a dramatically restructured pay-as-you-go government program. Instead of paying benefits based on years in the workforce and earnings history, the new system provides a pension based on the amount of taxes a worker has paid into the system.


Safety net to protect the poor. The government will continue to guarantee a minimum pension funded by general tax revenues.

■Transition to protect retirees and older workers. Current retirees and older workers will continue to receive retirement income based on the old program. Workers born from 1938 to 1953 will receive benefits from both the old and new systems as the new system is gradually introduced.

■Transition to protect retirees and older workers. Current retirees and older workers will continue to receive retirement income based on the old program. Workers born from 1938 to 1953 will receive benefits from both the old and new systems as the new system is gradually introduced.

Swedish workers and retirees will benefit from these reforms. The combination of partial privatization and reform of the pay-as-you-go portion of the retirement system will result in a fiscally sustainable system. In addition, private investments over time will allow workers to benefit from compounding returns, which will increase retirement income. Finally, the reform will benefit the Swedish economy. By reducing the payroll tax rate and linking income to pension benefits, Swedish pension reform will increase incentives to work. The shift to a funded system will also increase national savings and provide capital for future growth.

Link
 
2012-10-04 11:36:42 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: bunner: So, snotty insulting wanker STILL = intellectual acuity? Oh, internets, as long as we have you, we'll ALWAYS be the smartest kid in 8th grade! *snort* Bye. : )

If you weren't so dumb you'd have actually replied instead of tucking your tail and running.

Why don't you convert your faith-money into gold, smart guy? What's stopping you if it's such a wondrous idea?


I dunno, gold has gone up in value quite a bit over the past few decades. I don't have any, but it isn't a super terrible idea.
 
2012-10-04 11:37:04 AM

LemSkroob: Thanks Boomers, for not funding your own retirement. Good work as always.


You have kool aid on your chin. Did you know? Ah, never mind. Just remember to read all the popular opinion op ed pieces that will inform you as to the scapegoat du jour.
 
2012-10-04 11:37:23 AM

HeadLever: The Jami Turman Fan Club: No, the shortfall is because the government keeps borrowing the money and not paying interest.

Wrong. All money that is collected in SS revenue and is not paid out goes into the SS trust fund. That money is used to buy interest bearing treasuries. The actual money is then tranferred to the general fund while the treasuries sit in the trust fund bearing interest.

Read more here


You're right, I'm wrong. Been too long since my Business 201 class.
 
2012-10-04 11:40:17 AM

machoprogrammer: If you weren't so dumb you'd have actually replied instead of tucking your tail and running.


No, no laddie. I kicked your mouthy, troll, 13 year old ass out of my office. : ) U R so DUMN!!1 I mean, you can't buy tickets to sh*t this funny.
 
2012-10-04 11:41:08 AM
Hey Farkers! How's all this hopey--changey stuff working out for you?
 
2012-10-04 11:41:55 AM
Oops, that was for.. um, the troll kid, um., *scrolls up*, the Fifth Element fanboi... VMP. Sorry, yo.
 
2012-10-04 11:44:07 AM

olddinosaur: Hey Farkers! How's all this hopey--changey stuff working out for you?


So far, "this is gonna be a long ass row to hoe, mopping up this mess" isn't any worse than "I can fix EVERYTHING overnight" and then watching Wall St. get the keys to the treasury, again. At least long ball.
 
2012-10-04 11:44:13 AM
We should probably raise taxes on the super-rich to pay for it. But what am I making sense for, I should stop.
 
2012-10-04 11:44:18 AM

kriegsgeist: Rich Cream: Brostorm: People have been getting way more in benefits than they payed in for.ever.


Both my parents died at age 65. Tell me again about how everyone gets more than they pay in again?

people != everyone



Fair enough. Although not all the people who start collecting SS benefits live long enough to get back what they paid in. I still claim the original statement is simply not true.

There's a stat somewhere that says what the average time collecting SS to meet payments is and it ain't 1 year.
 
2012-10-04 11:45:17 AM

Ass Exploder: Does anyone seriously not understand that the federal government PRINTS MONEY and CANNOT POSSIBLY RUN OUT OF MONEY?

That there is not a limited supply of money in the world, it is printed and created out of nothing by the government?


Someone needs an intro to economics class.

That, or their internet privileges revoked.
 
2012-10-04 11:47:50 AM

Lernaeus: Ass Exploder: Does anyone seriously not understand that the federal government PRINTS MONEY and CANNOT POSSIBLY RUN OUT OF MONEY?

That there is not a limited supply of money in the world, it is printed and created out of nothing by the government?

Someone needs an intro to economics class.

That, or their internet privileges revoked.


t1.gstatic.com
 
2012-10-04 11:48:50 AM

Rich Cream: kriegsgeist: Rich Cream: Brostorm: People have been getting way more in benefits than they payed in for.ever.


Both my parents died at age 65. Tell me again about how everyone gets more than they pay in again?

people != everyone


not all the people .


BAH, did it again. OK Brostorm, what the hell do you mean by "people"? A few or a lot?

/lol
 
2012-10-04 11:51:49 AM
number8: "Just in case you're being serious, the social security "trust fund" contains nothing but government IOUs. There's no actual money there."

Only if you define "actual money" in such a way that there's no "actual money" anywhere except what's in circulation.
Because the second you hand your "actual money" to so much as a bank to put in a bank account? Sure, they keep a spreadsheet about who's allowed to withdraw how much, but the "actual money" gets thrown in one big pile and plowed back into investments, all of which are at least as risky and just as much an "IOU" as treasuries. (And I'd imagine we shouldn't even consider fractional reserve lending, which probably gives you fits.)

Or I suppose you mean to define "actual money" as gold or chickens or some barter-able commodities. In which case just cut out the middle-man and complain directly that the whole world economy is a fraud and has been for decades.
 
2012-10-04 11:52:38 AM

gweilo8888:

Printing more money doesn't fix anything.


Hence, taxes to burn off the extra money.

Where Money Comes From.
 
2012-10-04 11:54:57 AM
I think it's a damn good thing we know how badly we're being screwed.

We have little to no faith in this system, which leads us to be more self-dependent. Yes there are those of us who are not on the dole and frankly don't expect it to be there when it comes times.

I understand you can defer receiving payments? That'll probably be a bulk of my generations strategy. Save save, work work, until the day when you absolutely cannot anymore. The smart people will realize that their grandparents' retirement will be vastly different from their own and will enjoy their lives earlier

Anyway I'd rather have Medicare than Social Security so as long as that's okay.... : - /
 
2012-10-04 11:56:09 AM
Is this going to be another one of those "kill the federal reserve" and "the pope is the antichrist"? Because if so, count me in!
 
2012-10-04 11:56:22 AM
Currency has no intrinsic value.

It's just IOU's.

Twas ever thus.

It's only value lies in it's ability to move around and promote commerce. Guess what happens when a few people stop moving huge amounts of it around and shove it up their ass and concentrate it all in one place.
 
2012-10-04 11:56:36 AM
I'm currently sitting in the local Social Security office, so all these replies really kick me.
 
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