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(ESPN)   Bobby V not only throws his coaches under the bus on his way out of town, he gets in the driver's seat, and rolls it back and forth a few times just to make sure   (espn.go.com) divider line 74
    More: Asinine, Bobby Valentine, Ben Cherington, bullpen coach, WEEI, Terry Francona, Randy Niemann, Red Sox, Bob McClure  
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2888 clicks; posted to Sports » on 04 Oct 2012 at 10:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-04 10:31:27 AM
A 69-win team isn't just the fault of the manager.
 
2012-10-04 10:39:22 AM

ThatGuyGreg: A 69-win team isn't just the fault of the manager.


Trading away half your roster doesn't help.

How do coaches work in baseball? If he says they weren't on the same page, isn't that his fault?
 
2012-10-04 10:43:40 AM
I figured the conductor on this years crazy train would be from Miami.

How wrong I was.
 
2012-10-04 10:44:39 AM

thecpt: ThatGuyGreg: A 69-win team isn't just the fault of the manager.

Trading away half your roster doesn't help.

How do coaches work in baseball? If he says they weren't on the same page, isn't that his fault?


Depends on the team. On some teams the coaches are hired by the manager, on others, by the GM. I believe it's the latter with the Red Sox.
 
2012-10-04 10:46:34 AM

thecpt: Trading away half your roster doesn't help.


Yeah, cause they were just tearing it up before the trade (I'll save you the trip to Baseball Reference: 61-67).
 
2012-10-04 10:46:43 AM

upndn: I figured the conductor on this years crazy train would be from Miami.

How wrong I was.


Oh Ozzie's had his moments. Remember the Castro thing?
 
2012-10-04 10:56:04 AM
Part of the problem is that because of contracts and management there is not a hierarchial structure between Manager and Coach.

You would think that coaches work for the manager, he reviews performance, makes decisiosn to hire and fire. This doesn't seem to be the case. The Coaches don't like him and aren't working for him they are doing what they want to do. Management is allowing this to happend. Why I have no idea but a little blame falls on everyone. They need a team what they have is a bunch of assholes with egos each thinking they know the best way to work and deciding not to work with each other.
 
2012-10-04 10:57:47 AM

Stryyder: They need a team what they have is a bunch of assholes with egos each thinking they know the best way to work and deciding not to work with each other.


Perhaps not coincidentally, this also describes the ownership and upper management of the Red Sox.
 
2012-10-04 10:58:20 AM

jayhawk88: Yeah, cause they were just tearing it up before the trade (I'll save you the trip to Baseball Reference: 61-67).



61-67 is a shiat ton better than 8 and 26
 
2012-10-04 10:59:41 AM

The Bestest: upndn: I figured the conductor on this years crazy train would be from Miami.

How wrong I was.

Oh Ozzie's had his moments. Remember the Castro thing?


The only solution is for Boston & Miami to trade managers!
 
2012-10-04 11:01:16 AM
Bobby is a douche. I never wanted him as the manager. Yes, the team sucks and that's not all his fault. But the things he's supposedly good at (media relations, in game management, communication) were not represented in his tenure with Boston. Good riddance.

/Sox fan
 
2012-10-04 11:02:18 AM
Um, Bobby, your team underperformed. Your coaching style sucked. Your coaches are not the reason this epic fail happened.

Let me put it to you in terms you might better understand. A shiat sandwich, no matter how wonderfully wrapped, remains a shiat sandwich. Now, please stay out of the broadcast booth in your next career.
 
2012-10-04 11:03:17 AM

Coffee Snob: Bobby is a douche. I never wanted him as the manager. Yes, the team sucks and that's not all his fault. But the things he's supposedly good at (media relations, in game management, communication) were not represented in his tenure with Boston. Good riddance.

/Sox fan


That just had "bad idea" written all over it from the start.
 
2012-10-04 11:06:27 AM

Orgasmatron138: Coffee Snob: Bobby is a douche. I never wanted him as the manager. Yes, the team sucks and that's not all his fault. But the things he's supposedly good at (media relations, in game management, communication) were not represented in his tenure with Boston. Good riddance.

/Sox fan

That just had "bad ideaLarry Lucchino" written all over it from the start.


FTFY
 
2012-10-04 11:12:29 AM

thecpt: jayhawk88: Yeah, cause they were just tearing it up before the trade (I'll save you the trip to Baseball Reference: 61-67).


61-67 is a shiat ton better than 8 and 26


Granted, but it's not like the trade just tore the team apart and ruined their chances at the playoffs. They're a lot better off having got out from underneath those contracts.
 
2012-10-04 11:16:46 AM
When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.
 
2012-10-04 11:25:57 AM

jayhawk88: Granted, but it's not like the trade just tore the team apart and ruined their chances at the playoffs. They're a lot better off having got out from underneath those contracts.


Truth. I just think A Gonz is too good of a player to just add in to a deal in order to get rid of bad decisions.
 
2012-10-04 11:29:06 AM

thecpt: Truth. I just think A Gonz is too good of a player to just add in to a deal in order to get rid of bad decisions.


Ummm... the deal was *for* Gonzalez. The throw-ins were Crawford and Beckett (to a lesser extent). There probably wouldn't have been a deal if the Dodgers didn't also take the other two.
 
2012-10-04 11:34:40 AM

TheOther: When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.


I think it's part of a longer plan. Any manager that came in after Tito was going to be hated, considering the way the management treated Tito as he was leaving. By having Valentine in there for the "re-building" year, whatever manager they hire going forward looks like a godsend.

Either that, or the owners actually lost their collective minds during the collapse last year.
 
2012-10-04 11:37:55 AM

NeoCortex42: TheOther: When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.

I think it's part of a longer plan. Any manager that came in after Tito was going to be hated, considering the way the management treated Tito as he was leaving. By having Valentine in there for the "re-building" year, whatever manager they hire going forward looks like a godsend.

Either that, or the owners actually lost their collective minds during the collapse last year.


You are probably right and the icing on the cake would be if Valantine sued for punitive damages to his career prospects.
 
2012-10-04 11:44:13 AM

NeoCortex42: Either that, or the owners actually lost their collective minds during the collapse last year.


No, no, firing the only manager who won you a WS [two of them, actually] in 80+ years while simultaneously claiming that he was a horrible person that had no idea what he was doing is a perfectly sane way of approaching things. It was also sane to get into a public dispute with the GM, thereby having him bail to the Cubs of all places; and it was sane to trade away their best (only) shortstop during the offseason; and sane to hire a new GM, have him do a manager search, then say "No, you're hiring this person".
 
2012-10-04 11:44:16 AM

Joe_diGriz: Ummm... the deal was *for* Gonzalez. The throw-ins were Crawford and Beckett (to a lesser extent). There probably wouldn't have been a deal if the Dodgers didn't also take the other two.


I was looking at it from Boston's POV under the assumption that they wanted to get rid of useless payroll. A Gonz wasn't useless even on a bad year, and I thought he was one of their best players let alone their prize from FA the year before.
 
2012-10-04 11:52:02 AM

TheOther: When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.


Simple: No one could stand up to the shadow that Terry Franconia casts. So you throw in a sacrificial lamb that the fans can hate on for a year. Bobby does the dirty work of cleaning out the majority of the dead wood. The next manager that is brought in can work with a relatively clean slate and gets to look good in comparison to Bobby V.

/Or is it just a coincidence that Bobby V didn't get to replace any of the coaching staff?
 
2012-10-04 11:55:18 AM

thecpt: Joe_diGriz: Ummm... the deal was *for* Gonzalez. The throw-ins were Crawford and Beckett (to a lesser extent). There probably wouldn't have been a deal if the Dodgers didn't also take the other two.

I was looking at it from Boston's POV under the assumption that they wanted to get rid of useless payroll. A Gonz wasn't useless even on a bad year, and I thought he was one of their best players let alone their prize from FA the year before.


Gonzalez is a great talent, but he wasn't given a monster contract to hit singles and wall ball doubles. I don't think the HR Derby had anything to do with it, but his power numbers were in the toilet from there on out. Also, he played with less fire than JD Drew, which is saying something.
 
2012-10-04 12:02:18 PM

thecpt: jayhawk88: Granted, but it's not like the trade just tore the team apart and ruined their chances at the playoffs. They're a lot better off having got out from underneath those contracts.

Truth. I just think A Gonz is too good of a player to just add in to a deal in order to get rid of bad decisions.


Maybe, but at the same time, they're Boston and they have Top 5 payroll resources. Not like they're going to ever have serious trouble attracting big hitting FA's.

Also, are we sure Gonz is still an MVP-caliber player? He's 30, had a noticeable dip in production (that continued for 145 AB's after he was traded), and the Dodgers are now on the hook for $21m a year for the next six years. It's not 1998 any more; there's a good chance that he just might be a .290/20/.340/.450 guy now.
 
2012-10-04 12:04:25 PM

Elfich: TheOther: When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.

Simple: No one could stand up to the shadow that Terry Franconia casts. So you throw in a sacrificial lamb that the fans can hate on for a year. Bobby does the dirty work of cleaning out the majority of the dead wood. The next manager that is brought in can work with a relatively clean slate and gets to look good in comparison to Bobby V.

/Or is it just a coincidence that Bobby V didn't get to replace any of the coaching staff?


This kind of 'FDR tricked the Germans into bombing Pearl Harbor' double-think usually seems ridiculous, just because it's easier to believe organizations fark up rather than hatch genius plots. Still, it has to be true some times, right?
 
2012-10-04 12:14:08 PM

jayhawk88: Also, are we sure Gonz is still an MVP-caliber player? He's 30, had a noticeable dip in production (that continued for 145 AB's after he was traded), and the Dodgers are now on the hook for $21m a year for the next six years. It's not 1998 any more; there's a good chance that he just might be a .290/20/.340/.450 guy now.


yeah thats a spot on assessment, but at the same time I thought the reward outweighed the risk. He was still producing despite the lineup not being very solid in front of him and it really could just be an off year. Kind of sounds like a hitting coach problem, and they didn't get the right approach down just yet. But at the same time, if they don't want to contain any risk, getting rid of him is the option to go with. I just don't like that approach though.
 
2012-10-04 12:18:22 PM
I hope the Red Sox always overreact to things like last September. Firing the best manager the team has had in nine decades because you had a few assholes in the clubhouse and four terrible weeks so you can hire a known asshole who has never won anything of significance outside of the Far East.

You're doing a heck of a job, Lucchino. I'm sure you'll find some way to blame this mess on the Yankees.
 
2012-10-04 12:25:42 PM

Elfich: TheOther: When hiring somebody to manage a highly paid, stressed pack of prima-donnas, you want somebody with a stronger personality and character than the pack, not someone crazier than them. Why Boston picked Valentine with his well-known mental issues is beyond me.

Simple: No one could stand up to the shadow that Terry Franconia casts. So you throw in a sacrificial lamb that the fans can hate on for a year. Bobby does the dirty work of cleaning out the majority of the dead wood. The next manager that is brought in can work with a relatively clean slate and gets to look good in comparison to Bobby V.

/Or is it just a coincidence that Bobby V didn't get to replace any of the coaching staff?


Larry Lucchino = Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
Bobby Valentine = Beast Rabban
John Farrell = Feyd Rautha

Discuss...
 
2012-10-04 12:28:28 PM
Valentine's Day will be a real massacre this year.
 
2012-10-04 12:33:55 PM
By starting Matsuzaka last night, Valentine couldn't have said FU louder if he had a gigawatt PA system turned up to 11.

And anyone from Baltimore who thought they had any chance winning the AL East after they left here for the last time hasn't been following the game.
 
2012-10-04 12:37:49 PM
And things won't get better until ownership puts the 'team' above (or at least in the same ballpark as) fake "sellout streaks", selling bricks and tending to their racing/soccer team.
 
2012-10-04 12:45:19 PM
I'm surprised Bobby would say that, I thought he had already dug himself into a hole 6' under
 
2012-10-04 12:47:25 PM

Yanks_RSJ: I hope the Red Sox always overreact to things like last September. Firing the best manager the team has had in nine decades because you had a few assholes in the clubhouse and four terrible weeks so you can hire a known asshole who has never won anything of significance outside of the Far East.

You're doing a heck of a job, Lucchino. I'm sure you'll find some way to blame this mess on the Yankees.


Don't forget throwing your entire pitching rotation under the bus, ensuring that they won't give a flying fark the next year and will do whatever they want...

/Sox fan
//Management farked up last year horribly
///So much so they should really sell the team, no idea why ANYONE would play/coach for these guys, no matter the size of the paycheck
 
2012-10-04 12:51:42 PM
And he's fired. Too bad.
 
2012-10-04 12:52:44 PM
And now he's fired. Later, Bobby. Would've loved seeing him back another year, lol.
 
2012-10-04 12:54:41 PM
They got some big problems up there.
 
2012-10-04 12:55:11 PM

Yanks_RSJ: And he's fired. Too bad.


I'm not the conspiratorial type, but this kinda affirms my thinking that he was hired just to be a patsy.
 
2012-10-04 12:59:43 PM

thecpt: Joe_diGriz: Ummm... the deal was *for* Gonzalez. The throw-ins were Crawford and Beckett (to a lesser extent). There probably wouldn't have been a deal if the Dodgers didn't also take the other two.

I was looking at it from Boston's POV under the assumption that they wanted to get rid of useless payroll. A Gonz wasn't useless even on a bad year, and I thought he was one of their best players let alone their prize from FA the year before.


I think you're underestimating how good Rubby de la Rosa & Webster could be. I'm not even a Webster fan, but he was one of the Dodgers' top prospects. I'm willing to guess that if you search for him on mlbtraderumors, you'll notice his name came up in a lot of discussions and the Dodgers said no.
 
2012-10-04 01:01:54 PM

The Bestest: Yanks_RSJ: And he's fired. Too bad.

I'm not the conspiratorial type, but this kinda affirms my thinking that he was hired just to be a patsy.


That sounds like the kind of thing the Red Sox front office would do to pander to an enraged fanbase. Identify the problem (beer/chicken/video games), find a scapegoat (Francona), leak some stories that make him sound like he lost control and had personal problems (pain med usage) so they can fire him and look like heroes, then bring in a guy to make the problem magically go away.

Nothing new, really. They smear just about everyone on their way out of Boston.
 
2012-10-04 01:06:05 PM

Yanks_RSJ: And he's fired. Too bad.


I'm so glad to see this. I was worried they might hang onto him for a second year.

So any guesses who the front-runner is to take over as manager? I'm not even sure who's out there that would be available at the moment.
 
2012-10-04 01:08:49 PM
You know what would be fun? Red Sox hiring Trot Nixon to replace him.

I can see Trot literally wearing a pine tar smeared/crusted semen/god-knows-what-else-is-on-that-thing batting helmet while managing a game, but the fan base would respect a no-nonsense guy who might actually serve beer to the team (not with fried chicken though...Trot strikes me a "fire some steaks and brats on the grill" guy) in the clubhouse after wins.

Do it.
 
2012-10-04 01:11:23 PM

Killer Cars: You know what would be fun? Red Sox hiring Trot Nixon to replace him.

I can see Trot literally wearing a pine tar smeared/crusted semen/god-knows-what-else-is-on-that-thing batting helmet while managing a game, but the fan base would respect a no-nonsense guy who might actually serve beer to the team (not with fried chicken though...Trot strikes me a "fire some steaks and brats on the grill" guy) in the clubhouse after wins.

Do it.


Everyone knows ex-catchers make the best managers. If we're going with your line of thinking, may as well go all the way.

Dougie's going deep.
 
2012-10-04 01:12:38 PM

Killer Cars: You know what would be fun? Red Sox hiring Trot Nixon to replace him.

I can see Trot literally wearing a pine tar smeared/crusted semen/god-knows-what-else-is-on-that-thing batting helmet while managing a game, but the fan base would respect a no-nonsense guy who might actually serve beer to the team (not with fried chicken though...Trot strikes me a "fire some steaks and brats on the grill" guy) in the clubhouse after wins.

Do it.


Instead of having a manager and a bench coach, I want co-managers: tek & wake.

If they ever disagree on something, this is how they resolve it: wake throws tek the best knuckler he can. If tek catches it (or it's a wild pitch), he gets to pick. If it's a passed ball, wake does.

So basically I want wake to be manager.
 
2012-10-04 01:13:23 PM

The Bestest: Dougie's going deep.


Hmm....I see where you're going, but Mirabelli would probably make himself a player-manager, pressure the front office to do whatever possible to acquire RA Dickey, and catch every fifth game.
 
2012-10-04 01:17:23 PM

Killer Cars: The Bestest: Dougie's going deep.

Hmm....I see where you're going, but Mirabelli would probably make himself a player-manager, pressure the front office to do whatever possible to acquire RA Dickey, and catch every fifth game.


Eh.

The Sox already have a knuckler in the minors. No need to trade for one.
 
2012-10-04 01:19:15 PM

DeWayne Mann: Instead of having a manager and a bench coach, I want co-managers: tek & wake.

If they ever disagree on something, this is how they resolve it: wake throws tek the best knuckler he can. If tek catches it (or it's a wild pitch), he gets to pick. If it's a passed ball, wake does.

So basically I want wake to be manager.


Why not just a coalition of managers, all chosen from the 2004 team? Millar does the interviews and pre-game speeches, Varitek wears the uniform with a big "MGR" on it and bangs NESN's clubhouse reporter, Nixon is the equipment manager to make sure there's a layer of grime covering everything, Mirabelli has one good idea every 5 days but is the unequivocal fan favorite, and Pedro and Wakefield share pitching coach duties, with Pedro getting blame for every poor outing because he's got dark skin.
 
2012-10-04 01:24:24 PM

Yanks_RSJ: Why not just a coalition of managers, all chosen from the 2004 team? Millar does the interviews and pre-game speeches, Varitek wears the uniform with a big "MGR" on it and bangs NESN's clubhouse reporter, Nixon is the equipment manager to make sure there's a layer of grime covering everything, Mirabelli has one good idea every 5 days but is the unequivocal fan favorite, and Pedro and Wakefield share pitching coach duties, with Pedro getting blame for every poor outing because he's got dark skin.


OH

MY

GOD

Also, strictly speaking, NESN's CLUBHOUSE reporter is this guy:

boston.barstoolsports.com

so have fun tek.

The sideline reporter, otoh....
 
2012-10-04 01:25:42 PM

DeWayne Mann: The Sox already have a knuckler in the minors. No need to trade for one


Oh snap. Living in Seattle now, I know the Mariners farm system WAY better than the team I primarily root for and grew up on.

/much masturbation locally on the eventual arrivals of Walker, Hultzen, and Paxson
 
2012-10-04 01:27:15 PM

Yanks_RSJ: DeWayne Mann: Instead of having a manager and a bench coach, I want co-managers: tek & wake.

If they ever disagree on something, this is how they resolve it: wake throws tek the best knuckler he can. If tek catches it (or it's a wild pitch), he gets to pick. If it's a passed ball, wake does.

So basically I want wake to be manager.

Why not just a coalition of managers, all chosen from the 2004 team? Millar does the interviews and pre-game speeches, Varitek wears the uniform with a big "MGR" on it and bangs NESN's clubhouse reporter, Nixon is the equipment manager to make sure there's a layer of grime covering everything, Mirabelli has one good idea every 5 days but is the unequivocal fan favorite, and Pedro and Wakefield share pitching coach duties, with Pedro getting blame for every poor outing because he's got dark skin.


I like it. It can't be worse than this year's results.

With Tek already taking a job with the team with the purpose of learning the organization from the top down, I'm guessing he may show up as a long-term manager a few years from now.

In the meantime, the thought of Millar being a manager in any capacity is amusing as hell. Regardless of how well the team played, it would be worth it for the interviews and press conferences.
 
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