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(Team Coco)   "Who shot first: Han or Greedo?" and other questions that would have been better than Jim Lehrer's   (teamcoco.com) divider line 45
    More: Sad, Greedo, Jim Lehrer, Eisenhower, Skymall, soylent greens  
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12143 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Oct 2012 at 11:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-10-04 10:31:15 AM
22 votes:
"First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.
2012-10-04 11:49:23 AM
4 votes:
I love the jumping to conclusions that saying the moderator sucks means that Obama did bad. The moderator sucked because he could not control the debate and let both candidates repeat each other for an hour. He didn't press hard enough to serious answers and asked open ended questions.
2012-10-04 12:13:02 PM
2 votes:

unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.


I've heard this argument before and it's just plain dumb. Let me give you an example. You and I are sitting on opposite sides of the table. I put down a hundred dollar bill between us and suggest a game. The rules to the game are simple, whoever grabs the Benjamin first gets to keep it.

Now, you're super fast with those hands and get there before I do. Were you "first"?

That's what happens in a shootout. If one guy shoots "first" the other guy doesn't necessarily get a chance, as in this case, to shoot at all.
2012-10-04 12:00:39 PM
2 votes:
This thread never had a chance.
2012-10-04 11:56:42 AM
2 votes:
The debate format is culturally biased against peopleof color which explans why Obama did not do so well. We need to change the format to a more racially neutral structure.
2012-10-04 11:46:12 AM
2 votes:
Obama is an unmitigated disaster without his precious teleprompter, and Romney destroyed him last night.

Quick! Blame the moderator!
2012-10-04 11:32:40 AM
2 votes:

Holocaust Agnostic: Greedo shot first. Han was a good-guy. Good-guys don't do that.


Greedo was a bounty hunter shooting at a stationary target at point blank range. If he shot first, Han would be dead. If he was wounded first, then it's far more plausible that he missed. Shooting first is permissible if someone has a gun on you, else how did Roy Rodgers disarm all those bad guys by shooting the gun out of their hand?

George Lucas would rather re-write old material than write new material for the same characters because he is an anal retentive man who can't get over the fact that his best work was over by the time "Return of the Jedi" was in the can. Fact is, even if he wrote new material for the original set of Star Wars characters (Leia, Han, Luke, the droids, Chewbacca, etc.) it might actually be better...but...then again it might not be, in which case it would hurt sales of the retreads and we can't have that.

End of lecture.
2012-10-04 11:21:30 AM
2 votes:

Tiberius Gracchus: SN1987a goes boom: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

You haven't seen the newer versions of that film have you?

You mean the THX remastered one, right?


Yeah, although I think the newest verison replaces the entire cast with Ewoks and all the lightsabers with walkie-talkies.
2012-10-04 11:17:08 AM
2 votes:

SN1987a goes boom: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

You haven't seen the newer versions of that film have you?


Even still, Lucas be damned. Han shot first.
2012-10-04 11:14:56 AM
2 votes:
Han
2012-10-04 11:14:20 AM
2 votes:
Done in one
2012-10-05 06:52:05 AM
1 votes:

Debeo Summa Credo: mark12A: HA-HA! Your O-Guy sucked so you got nothing left but to go after the moderator....

It is pretty pathetic. I only watched the middle third of he debate and thought Obama did decently enough. Surprised to see the universal reaction that Romney won this morning. Maybe it just seems like he won because he didn't look like three horned monster everyone was led to believe he is.


That, is part of why he won. Countless people were waiting to see this evil capitalist monster that destroyed lives and left nothing but economic rack and ruin for thousands of families. The beast that gives workers wives cancer with a wag of its crooked cankerous finger. The hideous unspeakable being that wishes millions of poor people would die in the streets from starvation and/or lack of medical care. Then something strange happened. Instead of a multi headed hydra of malevolence, A well informed, moderate candidate with a command of facts and an ability to communicate ideas well walked on stage. Thus, not only showing why the other side was so desperate to paint him as as a more evil version of Gordon Gekko, but in the process, dissolving millions of dollars of Democrat negative advertising dollars into dust in the space of an hour.
2012-10-04 03:47:12 PM
1 votes:

Holocaust Agnostic: Greedo shot first. Han was a good-guy. Good-guys don't do that.


O RLY?
2012-10-04 02:42:39 PM
1 votes:
JackieRabbit: Obama does more before 8am blah blah blah

Know how I know yer an idiot?

NOBODY, let me repeat that NOBODY in our government works hard (contractors excluded)
especially in the arena of those who are elected to something.
it's all smoke and mirrors
Go here, wear this, say this, do this, smile for them, look concerned, be rich.
you seriously think yer not creating american royalty?
I've seen geithner at work 1 time in the last year or so
and he was here for 20 minutes for a luncheon

I'm no fan of BJ bill, but he would at least come running with us every once in awhile
2012-10-04 02:22:38 PM
1 votes:

That Guy...From That Show!: timujin: Sure there can. Let's look at another example. Two guys are in a race, they both start but one of them falls down halfway. Did the other guy make it to the finish line "first"?

Not if the guy who fell down doesn't get back up and finish the race. The guy who crosses the finish line IS the "winner" but he ISN'T "first". He can't be first unless someone else crosses the finish line after him.

This is not a difficult concept.


You are stuck in semantic cement and ignoring how the word has been used throughout the history of the English language.
Whenever someone gets somewhere for the first time, they're there "first" regardless of who follows or if anyone else ever makes it there at all. When Sputnik went into orbit, "Ruskies first to space" was the headline on all of the newspapers. Same for anything else, be it swimming across the English Channel, reaching the South Pole, orsummiting Everest... every time the person is regaled as "first to _____" without anyone having to come in second.
2012-10-04 02:16:25 PM
1 votes:

Holocaust Agnostic: Greedo shot first. Han was a good-guy. Good-guys don't do that.


Han wasn't a good guy when he first met Luke. He was a smuggler who worked for a galactic crime lord.
2012-10-04 01:43:00 PM
1 votes:

timujin: Sure there can. Let's look at another example. Two guys are in a race, they both start but one of them falls down halfway. Did the other guy make it to the finish line "first"?


Not if the guy who fell down doesn't get back up and finish the race. The guy who crosses the finish line IS the "winner" but he ISN'T "first". He can't be first unless someone else crosses the finish line after him.

This is not a difficult concept.
2012-10-04 01:36:11 PM
1 votes:

Harry Freakstorm: President Romney - Republican President Dwight Eisenhower famously warned of the "military-industrial complex." How would you transform it into a "military-industrial FUNplex?"

MILES for everyone. And you gotta wear the gear and your cars have sensors. If you cut someone off, someone can unload a clip of blanks on you.

Walk in to a cube farm, yell "Hey" and shoot whoever pops their head up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Integrated_Laser_Engagement_Sys t em


You know what other MILES got shot in a cube farm?

mos.totalfilm.com

Miles Dyson, that's who.
2012-10-04 01:25:21 PM
1 votes:
timujin:This was as much of a shootout as if they'd both stood on the street at high noon. Greedo had his gun out and was just about to put one in Han's gut, but... Han shot first.
That's NOT a shootout no matter what time of day or location.

There isn't any "first" or "last" without a sequence of shooting going on. 

If the police get into a gun battle with another group of people then a shootout happens and "who shot first" can be determined. If one side doesn't shoot then there isn't sequence of shooting going on and there isn't any "first".

And, actually, at this point I'm reminded of this i30.photobucket.com
2012-10-04 01:18:52 PM
1 votes:

CygnusDarius: I fear Romney might win.

There, I said it.


Because of one lackluster debate? This wasn't exactly a "there you go again" moment.

/then again, neither was "there you go again"
2012-10-04 01:14:55 PM
1 votes:

blahpers: The Name: Anyone getting a read yet on how Republican voters responded to the debate? Because Romney said a lot of things last night that would have gotten him burned at the stake in the GOP primary, e.g. "I'm not looking to cut massive taxes;" "the federal government has a role to play in getting local schools to do better."

So far, they seem to be largely ignoring the fact that he completely 180'd on a lot of his stances in favor of cheerleading his "win". Maybe they decided he was lying during the debates to score points--you know, ends justifying the means.


Entirely possible.

"Romney contradicted many of his own statements last night, including many things that are core planks of the Republican platform."
"Who cares? He won!"
2012-10-04 01:10:40 PM
1 votes:

Holocaust Agnostic: Greedo shot first. Han was a good-guy. Good-guys don't do that.


Han was a drug-smuggler. The Kessel Run is a smuggling route for the distribution of the illegal drug glitterstim. No amount of Greedo shooting first is going to make Han a good guy. At most, he's an anti-hero.

/pet peeve
2012-10-04 12:59:16 PM
1 votes:

That Guy...From That Show!: timujin: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

I've heard this argument before and it's just plain dumb. Let me give you an example. You and I are sitting on opposite sides of the table. I put down a hundred dollar bill between us and suggest a game. The rules to the game are simple, whoever grabs the Benjamin first gets to keep it.

Now, you're super fast with those hands and get there before I do. Were you "first"?

That's what happens in a shootout. If one guy shoots "first" the other guy doesn't necessarily get a chance, as in this case, to shoot at all.

Then it wasn't a shootout now was it? A shootout requires a battle. Do you not understand the difference between being shot and that's all that happens vs being in a shootout? One is an event and another is a sequence of events.


This was as much of a shootout as if they'd both stood on the street at high noon. Greedo had his gun out and was just about to put one in Han's gut, but... Han shot first.
2012-10-04 12:55:05 PM
1 votes:

timujin: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

I've heard this argument before and it's just plain dumb. Let me give you an example. You and I are sitting on opposite sides of the table. I put down a hundred dollar bill between us and suggest a game. The rules to the game are simple, whoever grabs the Benjamin first gets to keep it.

Now, you're super fast with those hands and get there before I do. Were you "first"?

That's what happens in a shootout. If one guy shoots "first" the other guy doesn't necessarily get a chance, as in this case, to shoot at all.


Then it wasn't a shootout now was it? A shootout requires a battle. Do you not understand the difference between being shot and that's all that happens vs being in a shootout?  One is an event and another is a sequence of events.
2012-10-04 12:34:03 PM
1 votes:

unlikely: timujin: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

I've heard this argument before and it's just plain dumb. Let me give you an example. You and I are sitting on opposite sides of the table. I put down a hundred dollar bill between us and suggest a game. The rules to the game are simple, whoever grabs the Benjamin first gets to keep it.

Now, you're super fast with those hands and get there before I do. Were you "first"?

That's what happens in a shootout. If one guy shoots "first" the other guy doesn't necessarily get a chance, as in this case, to shoot at all.

Your analogy only works if both sides know it's a gunfight. Greedo was still in "talk like a pompous git" mode.

To make your story fit the scenario, it'd go like this:

We are both siting on opposite sides of the table. While you are busy making gunfighter analogies, I take a hundred dollar bill out of my pocket, set it on the table, pick it up and put it back in my pocket, and then say "by the way, whoever picks up the benjamin first gets it."


Not at all, Greedo was definitely in on the game, he had his gun out and was ready to shoot Han. That's why Lucas was able to change the scene, Greedo's blaster was already in his lap. Han shot before Greedo got his own shot off, hence "first".
2012-10-04 12:31:12 PM
1 votes:

timujin: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

I've heard this argument before and it's just plain dumb. Let me give you an example. You and I are sitting on opposite sides of the table. I put down a hundred dollar bill between us and suggest a game. The rules to the game are simple, whoever grabs the Benjamin first gets to keep it.

Now, you're super fast with those hands and get there before I do. Were you "first"?

That's what happens in a shootout. If one guy shoots "first" the other guy doesn't necessarily get a chance, as in this case, to shoot at all.


Your analogy only works if both sides know it's a gunfight. Greedo was still in "talk like a pompous git" mode.

To make your story fit the scenario, it'd go like this:

We are both siting on opposite sides of the table. While you are busy making gunfighter analogies, I take a hundred dollar bill out of my pocket, set it on the table, pick it up and put it back in my pocket, and then say "by the way, whoever picks up the benjamin first gets it."
2012-10-04 12:29:23 PM
1 votes:
I wasn't aware Lehrer actually asked questions. He was more like Chris Farley interviewing an actor about their latest movie.

"Remember that time you were running for President and you said you'd repeal Obamacare? That was really cool."
2012-10-04 12:24:25 PM
1 votes:

mark12A: HA-HA! Your O-Guy sucked so you got nothing left but to go after the moderator....


Okay subby, which questions did Jim ask that you didn't like?

I know that 0bama is used to questions from the press like "how awesome is it to be you?" but that isn't what a debate is about.

0bama's prep was going on The View, avoiding press conferences, only doing softball interviews (except for Univision), and everyone is surprised that when challenged on his record he folds like a house of cards.
2012-10-04 12:23:10 PM
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: There were questions being asked? And responses were given OTHER than Romney's?

Coulda fooled me. All I could hear was Rmoney's machine gun-paced "nuh uh, you" and "I know you are, but what am I?"


The moderator became completely useless when Romney went with his "I'm going to finish this segment. Obama got to speak first, so I want to speak last. I don't care if I'm going first next, I want to talk more."

From that point on, it was all downhill for Lehrer.
2012-10-04 12:18:18 PM
1 votes:

jaybeezey: Enigmamf: Romney has been preparing for the debates non-stop for a month. Obama has been dealing with international crises. That Obama is off-form for his debate appearances is not surprising.

Debates are worthless media spectacles these days. Once upon a time, you didn't really know where a candidate stands on a given issue - but today, you do, from hundreds of stump speeches, dozens of policy papers, advisor selection, thousands of endorsements from interest groups. The thought that a debate can do anything to improve the electoral process is ludicrous and outdated.

You are correct. It's nothing more than intellectual football for politicos who want to see their team win.

People will hoot and holler over anything.


inevitably, the 'winner' is whoever you had already planned on voting for.
2012-10-04 12:17:53 PM
1 votes:

moothemagiccow: qorkfiend: I don't understand what the big deal is with the "Who shot first?" question.

Why is anyone surprised that a smuggler and outlaw, confronted in the scummiest spaceport in the galaxy by an enforcer for the most notorious gang boss in the galaxy, shot the enforcer?

They changed it so the scummy smuggler didn't shoot first, presumably because he's the good guy.


Which makes even less sense! Hutt enforcer and bounty hunter extraordinaire Greedo wasn't accurate enough to shoot the guy sitting across the farking table?
2012-10-04 12:17:23 PM
1 votes:

moothemagiccow: They changed it so the scummy smuggler didn't shoot first, presumably because he's the good guy.


Which completely dumbs down the character. It's not like anyone was clamoring for that change.
2012-10-04 12:16:22 PM
1 votes:

Enigmamf: Romney has been preparing for the debates non-stop for a month. Obama has been dealing with international crises. That Obama is off-form for his debate appearances is not surprising.

Debates are worthless media spectacles these days. Once upon a time, you didn't really know where a candidate stands on a given issue - but today, you do, from hundreds of stump speeches, dozens of policy papers, advisor selection, thousands of endorsements from interest groups. The thought that a debate can do anything to improve the electoral process is ludicrous and outdated.


You are correct. It's nothing more than intellectual football for politicos who want to see their team win.

People will hoot and holler over anything.
2012-10-04 12:09:18 PM
1 votes:

qorkfiend: I don't understand what the big deal is with the "Who shot first?" question.

Why is anyone surprised that a smuggler and outlaw, confronted in the scummiest spaceport in the galaxy by an enforcer for the most notorious gang boss in the galaxy, shot the enforcer?


They changed it so the scummy smuggler didn't shoot first, presumably because he's the good guy.
2012-10-04 12:06:39 PM
1 votes:
Romney has been preparing for the debates non-stop for a month. Obama has been dealing with international crises. That Obama is off-form for his debate appearances is not surprising.

Debates are worthless media spectacles these days. Once upon a time, you didn't really know where a candidate stands on a given issue - but today, you do, from hundreds of stump speeches, dozens of policy papers, advisor selection, thousands of endorsements from interest groups. The thought that a debate can do anything to improve the electoral process is ludicrous and outdated.
2012-10-04 12:05:41 PM
1 votes:

dickfreckle: This thread never had a chance.


Romney has inspired conservatives to post on forums where liberals are not censored. He is truly a job creator.
2012-10-04 11:53:56 AM
1 votes:
I've got another one:

Why is a raven like a writing desk?
2012-10-04 11:52:01 AM
1 votes:

Pantubo: Obama is an unmitigated disaster without his precious teleprompter, and Romney destroyed him last night.


You are a racist if you blame Obama.
2012-10-04 11:47:24 AM
1 votes:

MilesTeg: So this is really the DNC's (and its operatives) spin? The moderator sucked?

HAH!


That and altitude

Al Gore Blames Denver for Obama debate loss
2012-10-04 11:37:59 AM
1 votes:
Anyone getting a read yet on how Republican voters responded to the debate? Because Romney said a lot of things last night that would have gotten him burned at the stake in the GOP primary, e.g. "I'm not looking to cut massive taxes;" "the federal government has a role to play in getting local schools to do better."
2012-10-04 11:33:44 AM
1 votes:

mark12A: HA-HA! Your O-Guy sucked so you got nothing left but to go after the moderator....


You make me sad.
You've turned a funny little bit into a political jab for your party.
After you talk to people, do you notice them rolling their eyes when they leave?
2012-10-04 11:20:59 AM
1 votes:

macadamnut: SN1987a goes boom: You haven't seen the newer versions of that film have you?

Those are other films.


This. Remixes don't count.
2012-10-04 11:19:36 AM
1 votes:
HA-HA! Your O-Guy sucked so you got nothing left but to go after the moderator....
2012-10-04 11:18:10 AM
1 votes:

SN1987a goes boom: You haven't seen the newer versions of that film have you?


Those are other films.
2012-10-04 11:16:11 AM
1 votes:

SN1987a goes boom: unlikely: "First" implies a chain of events.
Han didn't shoot _first_ because there were no other shots.
Han shot. Greedo didn't.

You haven't seen the newer versions of that film have you?


You mean the THX remastered one, right?
 
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