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(NBC News) NewsFlash As God is my witness, I thought Turkey wouldn't retaliate   (worldnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 322
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36609 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2012 at 4:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-10-03 07:23:40 PM

badaboom: pxlboy: Israel

Yet there is not one comment condemning Turkey. How do we know their pinpoint retaliation did not kill innocent Syrians.


Pre-condemning Turkey for something we don't even know yet strikes me as a very stupid thing to do.
 
2012-10-03 07:24:03 PM

Slaxl: There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.


Not when those thousand guilty men kill thousands more innocents...
 
2012-10-03 07:26:20 PM

svenge: Slaxl: There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.

Not when those thousand guilty men kill thousands more innocents...


So... kill everyone and hope some of them were guilty of something? Great plan.
 
2012-10-03 07:28:22 PM
The End is nigh.
 
2012-10-03 07:31:47 PM

cameroncrazy1984: intelligent comment below: This is what happens when America does nothing to solve real humanitarian crises and drags its feel complaining about Russia and China blocking in the UN. Sure didn't stop them in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, or or or.

What happens is the country's neighbors take care of it rather than the US policing the world, and this is a bad thing?


That's leading from behind, you traitor! We must always put American blood and treasure on the line even if our allies could handle it instead! It's the Republican Way!
 
2012-10-03 07:32:26 PM

cameroncrazy1984: badaboom: pxlboy: Israel

Yet there is not one comment condemning Turkey. How do we know their pinpoint retaliation did not kill innocent Syrians.

Pre-condemning Turkey for something we don't even know yet strikes me as a very stupid thing to do.


So what you are saying is that if missiles are launched at a sovereign nation, any sovereign nation, that said nation has the right defend itself. Even if it means hitting what may not be pure military targets like army bases or naval ships. If so, I agree with you.
 
2012-10-03 07:36:13 PM

fusillade762: JohnTuttle: "Our armed forces on the border responded immediately to this atrocious attack within the rules of engagement, and points in Syria determined by radar were hit with artillery fire... Turkey, within the confines of the rules of engagement and international law, will never leave these types of provocations aimed at our national security unanswered." -- TFA

Also read as: "There are rules to these sorts of things. This is what happens when we plays by the rules."

I'm more surprised that they can use radar to pinpoint where a mortar round came from.


I suspect they mean their targets were selected by radar, rather than dialing in random coordinates and pushing "Play""Fire".
 
2012-10-03 07:38:58 PM

badaboom: cameroncrazy1984: badaboom: pxlboy: Israel

Yet there is not one comment condemning Turkey. How do we know their pinpoint retaliation did not kill innocent Syrians.

Pre-condemning Turkey for something we don't even know yet strikes me as a very stupid thing to do.

So what you are saying is that if missiles are launched at a sovereign nation, any sovereign nation, that said nation has the right defend itself. Even if it means hitting what may not be pure military targets like army bases or naval ships. If so, I agree with you.


I didn't say that at all. What I said was condemning an act before you know all the facts is incredibly stupid. Stop putting words in my mouth.
 
2012-10-03 07:40:52 PM

Slaxl: the money is in the banana stand: Slaxl: It's just as well Turkey retaliated, because that brought back to life all those who were killed in the initial attack and because retaliating is permitted in international law it would have been silly to waste that opportunity.

What a load of crap. It sounds like some douchebags in Syria did some crap with a mortar and Turkey just killed the nearest people it could and said "right, that's that then!", and walked away dusting off their hands.

As anyone who's followed attacks on Israel knows, these people set up shop in residential areas, fire their crap and leave, wait for the response, then come back with television cameras and go "oooh, unprovoked response on unarmed civilians".

People in that part of the world don't know the difference between revenge and justice, and that's why it will always be a shiat-hole.

So what's your solution to justice? Track down those responsible and kill them with a surgical strike? Have them "stand trial"? Do you just let them kill your citizens because you can't really stop it or find those responsible? Do you risk even MORE lives by securing justice?

There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.


So then, let me ask you this. If these thousand guilty men surround themselves with civilians and you stand absolutely 0 chance of eliminating them or extricating them without casualties, they are free to do whatever they want correct? Sounds like an easy way to win a war, why don't we just use human shields for our troops? So are you condoning these men using civilians as shields exploiting those taking the moral high-ground? It is then therefore not possible to stop groups that employ these tactics.
 
2012-10-03 07:40:52 PM
I like Turkey. They have delicious dried apricots.
 
2012-10-03 07:42:03 PM

vygramul: .

I doubt this is some kind of Machiavellian plot. Turkey has a great deal invested in the status quo and would rather not see a change. They're paranoid over there that the US will intervene so that we can set up a Kurdish homeland. Which is weird because it requires someone overseas to think America gives fark all about some minority group without its own country.


No, I'm not suspecting some "massive gub'mint conspiracy". My initial thoughts are a small group of rogue militia from either side, or also quite likely, some Kurdish militia members, since they have actively clashed with Turkey in recent months. My only point was to question initial media reports on these types of things until more facts are in. It's kind of depressing how many folks are gung-ho to go into Syria, not even knowing if this was the act of just a few people with their own agenda, trying to stir up some shiat.
 
2012-10-03 07:44:06 PM

Corvus: At some point turmoil must happen to reset long brewing problems in a region when it can not through other means. I would love to see violence to not be used to solve this issues but it seems to me things are such an impasse in this region that that is almost impossible. It's a lot like WW I and WW II. Which forced realignment of global powers over Europe (each a different region).

I wonder if the middle east is the same way now. That the only way to go forward is a reset that will be caused through violence. it already has somewhat with the revolutions in countries. I am not saying it's a good thing, I am just saying it might be the only way forward for these nations because I don't think you will find enough good-faith participants to fix what needs to be done without it. Too many people have lots of money because of the status quo. In some ways having the oil hurts them because they have entrenched interests to keep the status quo and not do what's right.


LOL! What a polite and euphemism-layered way of suggesting bombed cities, slaughtered ethnic groups, and $500 per barrel oil. You should work for the State Department.
 
2012-10-03 07:44:51 PM

JohnTuttle: fusillade762: JohnTuttle: "Our armed forces on the border responded immediately to this atrocious attack within the rules of engagement, and points in Syria determined by radar were hit with artillery fire... Turkey, within the confines of the rules of engagement and international law, will never leave these types of provocations aimed at our national security unanswered." -- TFA

Also read as: "There are rules to these sorts of things. This is what happens when we plays by the rules."

I'm more surprised that they can use radar to pinpoint where a mortar round came from.

I suspect they mean their targets were selected by radar, rather than dialing in random coordinates and pushing "Play""Fire".


Counter-battery radar is a technology that we've had since at least the 1980's. I'm sure we've shared/sold it to Turkey by now.

/Also imagine that the Syrian border is where they have it deployed right now
//For just such an occasion
 
2012-10-03 07:47:52 PM

cameroncrazy1984: badaboom: cameroncrazy1984: badaboom: pxlboy: Israel

Yet there is not one comment condemning Turkey. How do we know their pinpoint retaliation did not kill innocent Syrians.

Pre-condemning Turkey for something we don't even know yet strikes me as a very stupid thing to do.

So what you are saying is that if missiles are launched at a sovereign nation, any sovereign nation, that said nation has the right defend itself. Even if it means hitting what may not be pure military targets like army bases or naval ships. If so, I agree with you.

I didn't say that at all. What I said was condemning an act before you know all the facts is incredibly stupid. Stop putting words in my mouth.


So we should not jump to conclusions then right? Ok, I agree with you. Hopefully you will give Israel the same respect next time something like this happens.
 
2012-10-03 07:50:49 PM

Girion47: It isn't our job to meddle in disputes between other countries, thats what gets us attacked by terrorists.


Turkey is a NATO ally. If NATO invokes its charter powers, we are treaty-bound to assist.
 
2012-10-03 07:52:28 PM

TommyDeuce: JohnTuttle: fusillade762: JohnTuttle: "Our armed forces on the border responded immediately to this atrocious attack within the rules of engagement, and points in Syria determined by radar were hit with artillery fire... Turkey, within the confines of the rules of engagement and international law, will never leave these types of provocations aimed at our national security unanswered." -- TFA

Also read as: "There are rules to these sorts of things. This is what happens when we plays by the rules."

I'm more surprised that they can use radar to pinpoint where a mortar round came from.

I suspect they mean their targets were selected by radar, rather than dialing in random coordinates and pushing "Play""Fire".

Counter-battery radar is a technology that we've had since at least the 1980's. I'm sure we've shared/sold it to Turkey by now.

/Also imagine that the Syrian border is where they have it deployed right now
//For just such an occasion


Funny, though, I never hear about the Israelis using such a system. I mean they probably have one, you just never hear about it.
 
2012-10-03 07:54:20 PM
OFFICIAL RESPONSE FROM SYRIAN OFFICIALS

Venus Flytrap: Les! Are you okay?

Les Nessman: I don't know. A man and his two children tried to kill me. After the turkeys hit the pavement, the crowd kind of scattered but, some of them tried to attack *me*! I had to jam myself into a phone booth! Then Mr. Carlson had the helicopter land in the middle of the parking lot. I guess he thought he could save the day by turning the rest of the turkeys loose. It gets pretty strange after that.

Venus Flytrap: [to Andy] *How* is it strange?

Andy Travis: Yeah, right. Les, c'mon now, tell us the rest.

Les Nessman: [freaked out] I really don't know how to describe it. It was like the turkeys mounted a counter-attack! It was almost as if they were... organized!

[Mr. Carlson comes out of his office]: As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!

citizented.com
 
2012-10-03 07:54:38 PM
Jive Turkeys.
 
2012-10-03 07:56:31 PM
Hmm, Turkey is still aiming to join the EU, isn't it?
It's NATO, of course, but I wonder if that fact influences anything.

It seems like a messy proposition either way, Turkey is sort of isolated down there.
 
2012-10-03 07:58:37 PM

intelligent comment below: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Don't panic just yet, but based on the contrast between your Fark handle and your post, it appears that a moron has hijacked your account.

You should probably send a First Class letter to Drew asking about it.

Best,

jaochg


You're so original, another idiot refusing to address anything I've said and just make a stupid comment about my user name.

I'm surprised you showed up after the last time you tried debating and completely embarrassed yourself. But you think using alts for a week or more makes everyone forget the history with this name




???? Please, enlighten us.
 
2012-10-03 07:59:06 PM

intelligent comment below: dumbobruni: if by Fox News you mean PBS' Newshour then ok.

Link


You might want to read that link, because it gives no actual numbers, yet your claim makes it seem they are all over. When in fact, just like in Iraq, they make up less than 5% of the total opposition, and only because America refused to get involved in the Syrian crisis from the start. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy.


Doctors Without Borders disagrees with you.

"More than fifty percent of the warriors I had to take care of were jihadists, not just foreigners, but with the look of jihadists, with the beard and Koranic verses on the forehead," said Bérès, who worked at one of the two main hospitals in Aleppo.

Link
 
2012-10-03 08:04:46 PM

God-is-a-Taco: It seems like a messy proposition either way, Turkey is sort of isolated down there.


Turkey is sort of isolated? Yeah... so is the USA... or say, Australia? That's one big MF country y'know!
 
2012-10-03 08:07:34 PM

coco ebert: Hmm, part of me wonders if this could be the Syrian rebels stirring up conflict since an attack on Turkey constitutes an attack on NATO and could serve them if they come in and help to topple a regime.

I'm a Turk so conspiratorial thinking is second nature to me.


It is nice to hear that Turkey is a member of NATO. You don't fark with NATO.
 
2012-10-03 08:18:26 PM

intelligent comment below: This is what happens when America does nothing to solve real humanitarian crises and drags its feel complaining about Russia and China blocking in the UN. Sure didn't stop them in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, or or or.


^This is what happens when Obama doesn't come clean about faking the moon landings and having Bigfoot as a pet.
 
2012-10-03 08:21:19 PM

OhioKnight: God-is-a-Taco: It seems like a messy proposition either way, Turkey is sort of isolated down there.

Turkey is sort of isolated? Yeah... so is the USA... or say, Australia? That's one big MF country y'know!


A lot of trade routes passed through what's now Turkey over the centuries. Istanbul/Constantinople in particular. Hardly isolated.

Syria screwed with the wrong cowboy. Honestly I wouldn't be disappointed at all if the Turks started creating a buffer zone on the Syrian side of the border to prevent similar mortar attacks in the future.
 
2012-10-03 08:28:12 PM

Slaxl: svenge: Slaxl: There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.

Not when those thousand guilty men kill thousands more innocents...

So... kill everyone and hope some of them were guilty of something? Great plan.


It's always better to kill two thousand people if a thousand of them were guilty and MIGHT do something worse, than to try to negotiate with the thousand innocent people and hope they'll handle the thousand guilty ones; because we all know those thousand innocent people aren't really innocent, they secretly support the thousand guilty ones in their hearts and hate us for ar freedumz.
 
2012-10-03 08:36:24 PM

Gyrfalcon: Slaxl: svenge: Slaxl: There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.

Not when those thousand guilty men kill thousands more innocents...

So... kill everyone and hope some of them were guilty of something? Great plan.

It's always better to kill two thousand people if a thousand of them were guilty and MIGHT do something worse, than to try to negotiate with the thousand innocent people and hope they'll handle the thousand guilty ones; because we all know those thousand innocent people aren't really innocent, they secretly support the thousand guilty ones in their hearts and hate us for ar freedumz.


Debates like this one are why Japanese immigrants to the US ended up in detention camps. Can't figure out who the bad guys are and who may or may not be secretly supporting them? Detain them all and make them comfortable. That was the theory anyway.
 
2012-10-03 08:40:37 PM

dumbobruni: Doctors Without Borders disagrees with you.

"More than fifty percent of the warriors I had to take care of were jihadists, not just foreigners, but with the look of jihadists, with the beard and Koranic verses on the forehead," said Bérès, who worked at one of the two main hospitals in Aleppo.

Link


but with the look of jihadists, with the beard and Koranic verses on the forehead

That's his evidence?

You might want to read it rather than quickly searching Google to hope you can justify what you wrote already

Nevertheless, Bérès said his view could have been distorted because of his close proximity to the fighting. He said jihadists were often the first to be sent to the frontlines in Syria, and were wounded and killed in high numbers compared to other rebel fighters.
 
2012-10-03 08:42:03 PM

imontheinternet: Turkey get its ass kicked or step in and have a direct confrontation with the Russians..


In the history between Russia and the Turks, the Turks have overall held their own quite nicely.
 
2012-10-03 08:47:14 PM
What Assad's General said to him shortly after the attack.

"I don't know how to explain what happened. It was like Turkey mounted a counter attack. It was almost as if they were.....organized."
 
2012-10-03 08:48:47 PM

OhioKnight: God-is-a-Taco: It seems like a messy proposition either way, Turkey is sort of isolated down there.

Turkey is sort of isolated? Yeah... so is the USA... or say, Australia? That's one big MF country y'know!


I mean there's a lot of non-EU around it. Is Turkey even considered part of Europe, geographically?
I suppose it makes a good bulwark against that peninsula that the world has had so much fun with lately.
 
2012-10-03 09:03:44 PM
How antiquated, using a cannon to shoot really big bullets at military targets. Someone should tell Turkey that all the cool kids use guided missiles and drones.
 
2012-10-03 09:15:22 PM

NathanAllen: How antiquated, using a cannon to shoot really big bullets at military targets. Someone should tell Turkey that all the cool kids use guided missiles and drones.


Artillery is cheap, fast, accurate, and handily available in every modern military.
Sounds like it was counter battery fire, which is not unlike what any other NATO member might do in a similar situation.
 
2012-10-03 09:19:53 PM

mjohnson71: That WKRP episode should be required by law to be aired at least once in every city each Thanksgiving. Either that our your should be able to purchase it as a stand-alone episode.


I have an original recording of the episode with the proper music. Shame they won't release it with the proper music and ruin half the show just because they don't want to pay the music rights.
 
2012-10-03 09:22:45 PM

Alonjar:

Probably not. The ruskies have a long history of puffing their chest but ultimately backing down, because at the end of the day America has always been able to kick the ever living shiat out of them. They didn't back down during the cuban missile crissis etc because it was a stalemate, they backed down because we've always had a vast upper hand in our offensive capability.

TL;DR: The russians are mostly just talk.


The USSR was paranoid about being invaded by the western powers, considering their recent history and the post WW2 dogma denouncing communist governments, their paranoia can be justified. War and Chicken hawks in the US were the ones hyping fear through propaganda that the 'GODLESS COMMUNISTS WERE ONE STEP AWAY FROM DESTROYING THE GOOD GOD FEARING AMERICA.' The truth is that the Russians were committed to peace way more than Americans were. That's why they backed down. The end of the crisis was a carefully scripted event negotiated between the powers and not the dick-measuring game of chicken that is usually sold to the public.

During the height of the war, no one had a 'vast upper hand.' Yes, their subs were more basic and their troops under trained, but that means exactly diddly when every US city and base (foreign/domestic) is a smoldering crater. Which both the US and USSR knew was going to be the outcome of any fight.

God-is-a-Taco: I mean there's a lot of non-EU around it. Is Turkey even considered part of Europe, geographically?


Yes. But like Russia the majority of the state is actually in Asia.


vygramul: cc_rider: Damiit, WiseGuy, I didn't see your post.. Great Twisted minds think alike, I guess. :)

Anyhow, has anyone seen further confirmation this was definitely the work of Assad's troops? The guy is a evil monster, for sure, but I think we ought to look into this a little closer before we start having fantasies of storming into Syria with NATO troops.

Call me a suspicious Aloysius, but after the bullshiat we were sold about Iraq, Afghanistan and now Iran, I would like to make sure this isn't something entirely different being used as an excuse for NATO to get around the Russia and Chinese veto. I have no trouble with protecting Turkey, and I hope Assad goes bye-bye, but I am not wishing to make a mockery of treaties and international law to do so.

I doubt this is some kind of Machiavellian plot. Turkey has a great deal invested in the status quo and would rather not see a change. They're paranoid over there that the US will intervene so that we can set up a Kurdish homeland. Which is weird because it requires someone overseas to think America gives fark all about some minority group without its own country.


Uh, they have been in a war with Kurdish separatists for over three decades. The possibility of part of Turkey breaking off is not paranoia. And before anyone from the US biatches about a Kurdish breakaway state, we had a long bloody civil war over the same issue.


/No the Civil war was not about freeing black people. It was about preventing the southern states from leaving the union. Slavery only enters as the reason the south wanted to leave in the first place.
//Also Lincoln's emancipation proclamation didn't free the slaves. It was unenforceable political propaganda.
/// Slavery is the ideology of assholes.
 
2012-10-03 09:42:35 PM
Would Greece help Syria if they attacked Turkey from behind?
 
2012-10-03 09:47:54 PM

Heliodorus: Uh, they have been in a war with Kurdish separatists for over three decades. The possibility of part of Turkey breaking off is not paranoia. And before anyone from the US biatches about a Kurdish breakaway state, we had a long bloody civil war over the same issue.


/No the Civil war was not about freeing black people. It was about preventing the southern states from leaving the union. Slavery only enters as the reason the south wanted to leave in the first place.
//Also Lincoln's emancipation proclamation didn't free the slaves. It was unenforceable political propaganda.
/// Slavery is the ideology of assholes.


I didn't say they were paranoid about Kurds. I said they are paranoid about the US (or anyone else) giving a shiat about Kurds.
 
2012-10-03 10:52:19 PM

God-is-a-Taco: Hmm, Turkey is still aiming to join the EU, isn't it?
It's NATO, of course, but I wonder if that fact influences anything.

It seems like a messy proposition either way, Turkey is sort of isolated down there.


farm5.staticflickr.com

/Europe According to Turkey
 
2012-10-03 11:07:55 PM
Mr. President,

You have been presented your October surprise, if you would have it. A NATO ally has been attacked -- it's time to break out the NATO charter.
 
2012-10-03 11:20:08 PM

Buttbone McGillicutty: Çinli!

/ :chop:


This thing here that you did...I saw it.

/and I lol'd
 
2012-10-03 11:27:31 PM

maniacbastard: NATO article 5 invoked. Let's kill us some dirtbags.


You sound tough. I assume, you're Marine Infantry right? I mean, if you want to "kill some dirtbags", you would want to be right there in the shiat, right?
 
2012-10-03 11:35:03 PM
Well dammit - i have a date in Constantinople....where will she wait?
 
2012-10-03 11:51:11 PM

Pathman: Well dammit - i have a date in Constantinople....where will she wait?


nobody knows but the turks
 
2012-10-03 11:51:52 PM
I just want to point out that the top dogs of terrorist organizations DO NOT CARE about anything other than their own power. They do not care about Islam (clearly). They do not care about US imperialism/hegemony. They do not care about Syria. They do not care about Turkey. They do not care about the rank and file terrorist foot-soldiers. They simply trump up all kind of b.s. to increase their own power.

Do you remember OBL? Why did OBL hate America? It wasn't because he hated our freedoms, or hated our policies. OBL was a hero in Afghanistan resistance against the Vodaks. Then, when Saddam took over Kuwait, and threatened Saudi Arabia, he offered his heroic services once more. And what happened? Kuwait and Saudi Arabia both said...uh, thanks, but no thanks, we are going to go with US military power on this one. That was a slap in the face to OBL.

Eventually Hydra will get tired and say, you know what, fark this.
 
2012-10-03 11:55:47 PM

fusillade762: TommyDeuce: JohnTuttle: fusillade762: JohnTuttle: "Our armed forces on the border responded immediately to this atrocious attack within the rules of engagement, and points in Syria determined by radar were hit with artillery fire... Turkey, within the confines of the rules of engagement and international law, will never leave these types of provocations aimed at our national security unanswered." -- TFA

Also read as: "There are rules to these sorts of things. This is what happens when we plays by the rules."

I'm more surprised that they can use radar to pinpoint where a mortar round came from.

I suspect they mean their targets were selected by radar, rather than dialing in random coordinates and pushing "Play""Fire".

Counter-battery radar is a technology that we've had since at least the 1980's. I'm sure we've shared/sold it to Turkey by now.

/Also imagine that the Syrian border is where they have it deployed right now
//For just such an occasion

Funny, though, I never hear about the Israelis using such a system. I mean they probably have one, you just never hear about it.


Pretty sure they do - the Red Color system (mentioned on this page probably has counter battery functions, and if not, contains the tech needed to make one. The Brits have had radar for tracking and targeting mortars since the 1960's. My guess is that even the IDF is a little gun-shy about pumping howitzer fire or a Maverick missile into a vacant lot between a couple of apartment buildings with hundreds of civilians in them - tends to get bad press.
 
2012-10-03 11:56:05 PM
Here is what will happen if Turkey and Syria come to blows.

1. Syria cries for help from the Russians.
2. Turkey cries for help from NATO
3. NATO and Russia agree that Russia can keep its port, and Syria gets the shiat kicked out of it by Turkey.
4. Everyone gets drunk.



Out come Russia keeps it's port. Turkey gets to beat the hell out of Syria. Everyone gets drunk.


Russia does not want anything to do with fighting Turkey.
1. Turkey has a strong military.
2. Turkey has strong allies.
3. Turkey also has nukes.
4. Turkey has the means to deliver the nukes.

Russia is going to shake their big stick, and ensure that at the end of the day they come out in the exact same position they were in at the start of this fiasco. They do not care who controls Syria as long as they keep their port. The end of this will be everyone else saying "Fine Russia keep your port," and Assad then crapping his pants, all Assad is is the little kid that gets beaten up for his lunch money (a naval port) by one bully (Russia). Sure other bullys (NATO) don't touch him but that is because he already has a bully (Russia). As soon as the other bullys (NATO) offer the little kid's (Assad's) lunch money (a naval port) to the bully (Russia). The other bullys (NATO) beat up the little kid (Assad) and the bully (Russia) either just walks away happy or decides to throw in a couple punches themselves just for fun.
 
2012-10-04 12:13:03 AM

intelligent comment below: dumbobruni: intelligent comment below: This is what happens when America does nothing to solve real humanitarian crises and drags its feel complaining about Russia and China blocking in the UN. Sure didn't stop them in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, or or or.

if you advocate helping Al-Qaeda, which is part of the resistance forces, be my guest.


Sure it is, because that's what Faux News is telling you




Don't read much Al Jazeera, do you? They're saying the same thing - where do you think Faux is getting it from (besides O'Reilly's imagination)?
 
2012-10-04 12:21:13 AM

hdhale: Gyrfalcon: Slaxl: svenge: Slaxl: There is no 'solution to justice', justice is the target, the destination, not something to be fixed. It's better to let a thousand guilty men go free than kill one innocent person in a retaliatory strike.

Not when those thousand guilty men kill thousands more innocents...

So... kill everyone and hope some of them were guilty of something? Great plan.

It's always better to kill two thousand people if a thousand of them were guilty and MIGHT do something worse, than to try to negotiate with the thousand innocent people and hope they'll handle the thousand guilty ones; because we all know those thousand innocent people aren't really innocent, they secretly support the thousand guilty ones in their hearts and hate us for ar freedumz.

Debates like this one are why Japanese immigrants to the US ended up in detention camps. Can't figure out who the bad guys are and who may or may not be secretly supporting them? Detain them all and make them comfortable. That was the theory anyway.


Japanese in concentration camps were US citizens and we had jurisdiction over them. Not even close to an international border conflict. In this case, you can't do dick other than a tit-for-tat show of power, negotiate with the standing government to turn over the combatants (fat chance in a country already in civil war), or invade to bring the little shiats under your rule of law. There is no good solution to this but the onus was on Syria to open negotiations because they're the aggressors. Murder my populace without declaring war? We'll assume it was an act of war and retaliate. Kumbaya doesn't undo the murder of the Turkish family, and in fact, invites further murder.
 
2012-10-04 12:26:07 AM
vygramul: cc_rider: Damiit, WiseGuy, I didn't see your post.. Great Twisted minds think alike, I guess. :)

Anyhow, has anyone seen further confirmation this was definitely the work of Assad's troops? The guy is a evil monster, for sure, but I think we ought to look into this a little closer before we start having fantasies of storming into Syria with NATO troops.

Call me a suspicious Aloysius, but after the bullshiat we were sold about Iraq, Afghanistan and now Iran, I would like to make sure this isn't something entirely different being used as an excuse for NATO to get around the Russia and Chinese veto. I have no trouble with protecting Turkey, and I hope Assad goes bye-bye, but I am not wishing to make a mockery of treaties and international law to do so.

I doubt this is some kind of Machiavellian plot. Turkey has a great deal invested in the status quo and would rather not see a change. They're paranoid over there that the US will intervene so that we can set up a Kurdish homeland. Which is weird because it requires someone overseas to think America gives fark all about some minority group without its own country.


Uh... we kinda sorta promised the Kurds protection from Saddam if they helped us in the first "let's kill the crazy desert dictator" and then left them to their own devices. They're a wee bit pissed (rightfully so, imo) that we smiled and waved as we left and they ended up in lovely SoDamn Insane-made mass graves. It's part of where that whole "hearts and minds" bullshiat comes from - they don't trust us as far as they can throw us, and I don't blame them one bit.

They should be paranoid because we tend to make promises like that in order to get the help we want... we just don't deliver if it's not in our best interests to do so (which it frequently is not). But if it turns out to be in our best interests, we will make it happen. After all, we helped get Saddam in power to begin with, and did a whole lot more meddling in that region over the past century or so that I guarantee you Middle Easterners remember.

Just because we Americans have a memory that only lasts as long as last week's reality show of choice doesn't mean the Kurds and Turks are so limited - their memory goes back centuries, and they hold grudges until they die, then they have them stuffed and mounted and pass them down through the generations so that they can continue to admire them.
 
2012-10-04 12:40:17 AM

Heliodorus: /No the Civil war was not about freeing black people. It was about preventing the southern states from leaving the union. Slavery only enters as the reason the south wanted to leave in the first place.
//Also Lincoln's emancipation proclamation didn't free the slaves. It was unenforceable political propaganda.
/// Slavery is the ideology of assholes.



Not sure if serious, or just "educated" in public schools

/for kicks go look at the difference between the confederate constitution and the American... the only difference is the legality of slavery
 
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