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(Salt Lake Tribune)   I fought the law (by declaring myself the president of a sovereign nation bound only by English common laws and filing billion-dollar legal claims against the feds), and the law won   (sltrib.com) divider line 34
    More: Amusing, State Of Louisiana, Louisiana Man, Utah, paper terrorism, Utah County, tax fraud, juvenile courts, federal judges  
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11348 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2012 at 4:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-10-03 04:54:16 PM
3 votes:

blazemongr: Magorn: This is what I never understood about these "sovereign citizen" nutballs (and their African-American counterparts the "Moorish Constitution" wierdos) First how can they possibly believe that the law works like this? That if they simply say some magic words they can not be bound by the rules all the other suckers in the world are following?

They buy books and/or read web sites telling them they can do exactly this, and it sounds plausible, so they try it out. They succeed what the article calls "paper terrorism" by tying up the legal system with useless claims, thinking they can outlast the government's lawyers. This is because they don't know anything about lawyers.


It's magical thinking, writ large.

Take the same magical thinking that powers pseudoscience, and fundamentalist religion, and apply that to law and government.

Sovereign citizens are to law as "Dr." Jenny McCarthy is to medicine and TimeCube Guy is to Physics.

Of course, the thing is, it's not a new scam. Judges know about it. Prosecutors know about it. Government attorneys know about it. Cops know about it. I know plenty of judges that just LOVE to put the smack-down on "sovereign citizens" for willful ignorance of the law. Some guy pulling this stunt gets a collective facepalm from cops, lawyers and judges of realizing this is going to be long and annoying. . .but nobody is afraid of it because they all know he's going to lose in the long run.

You can't just make up some nonsense about a court being a military court because the US flag has a gold fringe, or that you can just "opt out" of government and taxes by filing some kind of public notice in the newspaper, or that income taxes are inherently illegal because the IRS isn't a lawful part of the government (or is banned under the Constitution, or is secretly an arm of the British Crown, ect.). . .and expect it to work.

I've heard lots of this wackiness, and it's never worked. At most it ties up the courts for a few years and harasses the hell out of innocent people, but every single time, eventually, the legitimate law wins and the "sovereign citizen" loses.
2012-10-03 02:44:59 PM
3 votes:
The Sovereign Citizen movement is one of the three dumbest things in the history of thought.
2012-10-03 05:46:36 PM
2 votes:

Aidan: Magorn: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: This spring, Cecil sent certified letters to at least four judges and a commissioner demanding judgments be voided and property returned within three days or payment of either $3.2 billion or $804 billion.

So they used the services of a government that they do not recognize to try to sue same government.

Fark it. Drop 'em in Kazakhstan without their passports and see how that "Sovereignty" works out for them.

This is what I never understood about these "sovereign citizen" nutballs (and their African-American counterparts the "Moorish Constitution" wierdos) First how can they possibly believe that the law works like this? That if they simply say some magic words they can not be bound by the rules all the other suckers in the world are following? Second, who who ever want to live in a world that lives like that? Where any right they think they have, or any contract they think they've agreed to could be voided simply because the other side crosses their fingers and says "Mxyzptlk" in a room where a flag with a yellow fringe border is hung or some damn thing?

Yeah, but... It's kind of how I feel about jury nullification. I'm not sure how knowledge of a secret magical term will get people something.



Jury nullification's a little different - it's not some arcane magical phrase, it's simply the idea that a jury is *always* free to return a verdict of "not guilty", no matter the evidence against the accused. Over the years, it's been used both for good and for ill.
2012-10-03 05:20:37 PM
2 votes:

Magorn: This is what I never understood about these "sovereign citizen" nutballs (and their African-American counterparts the "Moorish Constitution" wierdos) First how can they possibly believe that the law works like this? That if they simply say some magic words they can not be bound by the rules all the other suckers in the world are following?


My theory is that it comes from playing too much Mao as a child. You can never be sure you know all the rules, or that anyone else you're playing with does either, so eventually you learn to make crap up.

Second, who who ever want to live in a world that lives like that? Where any right they think they have, or any contract they think they've agreed to could be voided simply because the other side crosses their fingers and says "Mxyzptlk" in a room where a flag with a yellow fringe border is hung or some damn thing?

I'm forced to admit that being able to play Calvinball with the law actually does sound kind of fun. I'm not saying it's worth the ramifications, of course, but it might be fun to dream about once in a while.
2012-10-03 05:08:49 PM
2 votes:

Corvus: Tax Boy: turbocucumber: :David-Wynn: Miller is still one of the funniest of the lot.

QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR FTW

Oh god this guy.

Many years ago, I represented the United States in a tax case brought by one of his "students" and the complaint was written in that crazy-ass style all in caps with colons everywhere and numbers hand-written over each word that (I guess) meant something "important" to these people.

So I filed a motion to dismiss. It began with "Plaintiff has got to be joking."

HA!

So they wrote something that it looked like Charley Manson would write? Because colons and brackets somehow make you no longer an American citizen.


Hey he's wikipedia-worthy:

Miller lived in Ohio before moving to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and he describes himself as a "Plenipotentiary-Judge", an ambassador, banker, postmaster,[10] King of Hawaii, and a genius.[11][12][13]
On April 6, 1988, Miller invented what he calls the Mathematical Interface for Language or Quantum-Math-Communications and Language[14] or Correct-Language.[15] According to Miller, his language is "for the stopping-claims of the Theft, Cheating, Fraud, Slavery and War."[14] Miller's language uses sentences that begin with prepositional phrases, using the word For, are at least thirteen words long, and have many more nouns than verbs. According to Miller, only nouns have legal authority. The language has an abundance of punctuation. Miller explains:

FOR THE FORMS OF OUR PUNCTUATIONS ARE WITH THE CLAIM OF THE USE: FULL-COLON=POSITION-LODIO-FACTS, HYPHEN=COMPOUND-FACTS =KNOWN, PERIOD=END-THOUGHT, COMMA-PAUSE, AND LOCATION-TILDES WITH THE MEANINGS AND USES OF THE COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE FULL-COLON OF THE POSITION-LODIAL-FACT-PHRASE WITH THE FACT/KNOWN-TERM OF THE POSITIONAL-LODIO-FACT-PHRASE AND WITH THE VOID OF THE NOM-DE-GUERRE = DEAD-PERSON.[14]

According to Miller's teaching, the addition of hyphens and colons to one's name turns one from an ordinary, taxable human into a non-taxable "prepositional phrase." They are distinguished from the names listed at birth in all capital letters (as on a birth certificate), which he claims turns one into a taxable Person (Corporation). (e.g., DAVID WYNN MILLER as opposed to :David-Wynn: Miller.)."[16]
2012-10-03 04:33:12 PM
2 votes:

Magorn: This is what I never understood about these "sovereign citizen" nutballs (and their African-American counterparts the "Moorish Constitution" wierdos) First how can they possibly believe that the law works like this? That if they simply say some magic words they can not be bound by the rules all the other suckers in the world are following?


They buy books and/or read web sites telling them they can do exactly this, and it sounds plausible, so they try it out. They succeed what the article calls "paper terrorism" by tying up the legal system with useless claims, thinking they can outlast the government's lawyers. This is because they don't know anything about lawyers.
2012-10-03 04:30:52 PM
2 votes:
Why don't they make filing fraudulent liens against ANYONE the law, and not just public servants....
2012-10-03 02:11:10 PM
2 votes:
This spring, Cecil sent certified letters to at least four judges and a commissioner demanding judgments be voided and property returned within three days or payment of either $3.2 billion or $804 billion.

So they used the services of a government that they do not recognize to try to sue same government.

Fark it. Drop 'em in Kazakhstan without their passports and see how that "Sovereignty" works out for them.
2012-10-03 08:13:07 PM
1 votes:
upload.wikimedia.org
2012-10-03 06:31:16 PM
1 votes:

Fissile: You're going to see a lot more of this if Obama is reelected. Nut-cases declaring secession. Survivalist training camps, Loons demanding to be paid in "constitutional money". On and on it will go.

I want off this planet.


No you do not want off this planet. Just finding you on fark tells me that you will find the future quite entertaining, no matter who wins the election. The coming decade will be fun for all.
2012-10-03 06:17:29 PM
1 votes:

Disgruntled Dave: You'll see that if Romney wins too, these chuckefarks aren't exactly big fans of logic, they hate all government be it left or right


The serious ones who repunctuate their names and send 30 pieces of silver to the county clerk do. But the "I refuse to use a drivers license and will only accept payment in gold" movements always seem to swell when a Democrat is in office and shrink when a Republican is in office.
2012-10-03 06:15:25 PM
1 votes:
I know a guy who is all into that nonsense. He believes a lot of stupid things though... examples:

1. Planes leave "Chem-Trails" in some vast conspiracy for no apparent reason.
2. Hollywood actresses are all sex slaves.
3. That he can pay any bill by writing "Accepted for value" on it.
4. UFO's are not only visiting us, but doing so on a regular basis.
5. Cancer is cured by eating specific diets.
6. That rocks and magnets under his pillow will protect him from EMF.
7. Perpetual motion machines exist and "they" are just keeping the machines secret.

He listens to a lot of "American Freedom Radio",,, his brain is broken. Generally a pretty nice guy... just believes a lot of crazy stuff.
2012-10-03 06:15:24 PM
1 votes:
Well if they're big fans of English common law we shoudl introduce them to another English tradition

"You shall be taken from this place, to a place of lawful execution where you shall be hanged by the neck until dead and your body buried in the precincts of the prison where you were last confined and may god have mercy upon your soul."
2012-10-03 06:12:25 PM
1 votes:

Cyno01: Why are these sovereign citizen assholes, who typically deify the founding fathers (the parts they like anyway), always all about english common law? Didnt their heroes fight a war about that?


The revolution notwithstanding, we actually did adapt a lot of English ideas, customs and laws into our own. See the Magna Carta, English common law, the writings of Locke and Hobbs, and Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England" as some examples.
2012-10-03 06:06:10 PM
1 votes:
Why are these sovereign citizen assholes, who typically deify the founding fathers (the parts they like anyway), always all about english common law? Didnt their heroes fight a war about that?
2012-10-03 06:02:55 PM
1 votes:
You're going to see a lot more of this if Obama is reelected. Nut-cases declaring secession. Survivalist training camps, Loons demanding to be paid in "constitutional money". On and on it will go.

I want off this planet.
2012-10-03 05:47:39 PM
1 votes:

Millennium: Calling it paper terrorism may be a bit of a stretch, though: I mean, is anyone actually afraid of these guys?


They had a guy, not sure if was a SC, doing paper terrorism in New Orleans. Basically he got pissed off at a couple people and filed many frivolous liens on property owned by those he wanted to get back at. If took the victims literally hundreds of thousands in court and legal fees to fight liens that only cost a few bucks to file. These victims lost property due to this a well.

So yeah, no physical violence, but the victims never knew when they went to sell a property if something crazy would show up and halt a sale. Or if the sheriff would show up with a foreclosure notice to pay off the lien in a Sheriff's auction.

It was all done with the intent to harass and intimidate. Sort of like terrorism, but via paper.
2012-10-03 05:38:12 PM
1 votes:
Also I give you Erwin Badertscher, a man who believes in god, non-standard punctuation, sovereign citizenship and ... yeah, perpetual motion engines.
2012-10-03 05:37:58 PM
1 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: So these guys are pretty much like people who play Dungeons and Dragons going into town and demanding as a 24th level Elf Druid with Dragon Pants that all the maidens fair be brought to him for nether inspection?


That would be Epic!
2012-10-03 05:36:45 PM
1 votes:

Tax Boy: According to Miller, only nouns have legal authority.


"Detain him"
"Demolish that structure"
"Confiscate those papers"
"Hold you in contempt"

Hmm, looks like lots of verbs with authority to me.
2012-10-03 05:34:39 PM
1 votes:

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: This spring, Cecil sent certified letters to at least four judges and a commissioner demanding judgments be voided and property returned within three days or payment of either $3.2 billion or $804 billion.

So they used the services of a government that they do not recognize to try to sue same government.

Fark it. Drop 'em in Kazakhstan without their passports and see how that "Sovereignty" works out for them.


I was thinking Somalia, but Kazakhstan works, too.
2012-10-03 05:34:14 PM
1 votes:

orbister: Izicata: In 2006, Hemet, California physician Jerome Mueller was jailed for tax evasion: "Part of a loose-knit group calling themselves 'freemen' and 'patriots,' Mueller is an adherent of 'truth language.' Developed by self-professed genius David Wynn Miller, of Milwaukee, truth language is based on mathematics and purports to be the only correct way of interpreting English.

Have a look at this, and enjoy contact with a different type of consciousness.


That made my head hurt.
2012-10-03 05:30:24 PM
1 votes:

G. Tarrant: My two favorite claims that sovereign citizens make are where they say they can take over a courtroom when the judge leaves by storming the bench and yelling "The captain has abandoned ship!" and therefore have full authority, and that they say that when handed a receipt if you write the correct magic words (cant recall what they are right now) on it at a 45 degree angle then it's automagically paid off by your secret government account that if you didn't use the government would get to use as collateral for a loan or something.

These guys are nuts.



Accepted for Value.


Yeah, they are fecking crazy. The thing that gets me is that they allege there's this huge conspiracy of courts and judges and politicians and police and basically everyone. This MASSIVE cabal has taken over the US (or the UK, we have a few now going by the name 'free man on the land') in every possible way, subverting the law itself and all its officers.

OK, accept that, crazy as it is for a moment.

Then they think that there's a deeper law, an old law that's somehow more valid, and they expect the conspirators, who have control of absolutely everything, to actually respect that?!?

WTF?
2012-10-03 05:29:12 PM
1 votes:

Izicata: In 2006, Hemet, California physician Jerome Mueller was jailed for tax evasion: "Part of a loose-knit group calling themselves 'freemen' and 'patriots,' Mueller is an adherent of 'truth language.' Developed by self-professed genius David Wynn Miller, of Milwaukee, truth language is based on mathematics and purports to be the only correct way of interpreting English.


Have a look at this, and enjoy contact with a different type of consciousness.
2012-10-03 05:25:44 PM
1 votes:
this is the kind of jibber jabber that broke Jared Loughner
2012-10-03 04:55:58 PM
1 votes:
FTA: A Louisiana man described as the "brains" behind an alleged sovereign citizenship scheme that attempted to saddle state court judges and other authorities with billion-dollar debt claims will remain jailed in Utah until his trial.

Ok that made me LOL.
2012-10-03 04:48:34 PM
1 votes:
"Sovereign citizens" being a euphemism for a mentally challenged tax dodging numbskull.
2012-10-03 04:42:20 PM
1 votes:
He should have stuck with Emperor.

i1127.photobucket.com
2012-10-03 04:41:35 PM
1 votes:
nobody yet?

cartoonsparajovenes.files.wordpress.com
2012-10-03 03:44:56 PM
1 votes:
Looks like Emporer Norton is alive and well.
2012-10-03 03:44:06 PM
1 votes:
So these guys are pretty much like people who play Dungeons and Dragons going into town and demanding as a 24th level Elf Druid with Dragon Pants that all the maidens fair be brought to him for nether inspection?
2012-10-03 03:16:45 PM
1 votes:

ManateeGag: P Barnes is still not amused.


I want to take up a collection and buy P Barnes something nice.
2012-10-03 02:53:31 PM
1 votes:

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: This spring, Cecil sent certified letters to at least four judges and a commissioner demanding judgments be voided and property returned within three days or payment of either $3.2 billion or $804 billion.

So they used the services of a government that they do not recognize to try to sue same government.

Fark it. Drop 'em in Kazakhstan without their passports and see how that "Sovereignty" works out for them.


This is what I never understood about these "sovereign citizen" nutballs (and their African-American counterparts the "Moorish Constitution" wierdos) First how can they possibly believe that the law works like this? That if they simply say some magic words they can not be bound by the rules all the other suckers in the world are following? Second, who who ever want to live in a world that lives like that? Where any right they think they have, or any contract they think they've agreed to could be voided simply because the other side crosses their fingers and says "Mxyzptlk" in a room where a flag with a yellow fringe border is hung or some damn thing?
2012-10-03 02:36:31 PM
1 votes:
P Barnes is still not amused.
 
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