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(The Daily Beast)   Here's a shocker: Mitt's one-and-only tax plan "specific," his $17,000 cap on deductions, hurts the middle class and favors the wealthy   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 137
    More: Obvious, Michael Tomasky, war correspondents, itemized deduction  
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2834 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Oct 2012 at 4:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



137 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-10-03 12:33:25 PM
i just want him to say what other loopholes he'll close. mortgage deduction? charitable giving deduction?
 
2012-10-03 12:38:21 PM
Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.
 
2012-10-03 12:39:11 PM
The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.
 
2012-10-03 12:41:33 PM

Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.


Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:52 PM

what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.


he's already talking about lowering it. that would be political suicide.
 
2012-10-03 12:46:31 PM
Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.
 
2012-10-03 12:51:08 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Parasitic capitalist?
 
2012-10-03 12:51:15 PM

FlashHarry: what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.

he's already talking about lowering it. that would be political suicide.


He already committed political suicide when he forgot that besides rich white people, women, blacks, latinos, potheads and the poor can vote.
 
2012-10-03 12:51:25 PM
those parasite home owners really need to take personal responsibility and contribute something.
 
2012-10-03 12:53:03 PM

Dogberry: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Parasitic capitalist?


parasites generally reach some sort of homeostasis with their host so they can continue their feedings.

Romney is more like a locust capitalist. He takes everything he can before moving onto the next company.
 
2012-10-03 12:59:11 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Lamprey capitalism fits nicely.
 
2012-10-03 01:01:48 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.
 
2012-10-03 01:03:16 PM
images.hollywood.com 

It's official: this guy is running for President.
 
2012-10-03 01:20:45 PM
Romney is the Goa'uld of capitalism.

In fact he may actually be one. I'm not sure yet. Has anyone seen him driving any flying pyramids? Does anyone have any proof he doesn't own one?
 
2012-10-03 01:26:13 PM
Romney is immoral scum and his supporters are immoral scum by extension
 
2012-10-03 01:32:11 PM
I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!
 
2012-10-03 01:39:42 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


But if you don't subsidise the rich how will the money trickle back down to you?
 
2012-10-03 01:56:15 PM
But Joe Biden said that the middle class has been hurting this past four years, so therefore MItt Romney is now President and Obama has to do a reality show in Alaska.
 
2012-10-03 02:02:05 PM
Double post fail >
Mods, please remove.
 
2012-10-03 02:11:01 PM
The guy didn't really connect the dots on his argument that it benefits people who make most of their money on capital gains tax. They have less deductibles because what, they didn't pay state income tax on all that money that they're not being taxed on anyhow?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-03 02:14:47 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Lamprey capitalist doesn't have the same ring to it.

The parasite vs scavenger thing is a good point though.
 
2012-10-03 02:17:02 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


You have itemized deductions greater than $17k per year?
 
2012-10-03 02:18:21 PM
Oh, here's a table of average itemized deductions:

Average Itemized Deductions - United States
AGI (-000) Medical Taxes Interest Contributions Total
$15-30 $5,390 $2,270 $5,442 $1,338 $10,306
30-50 4,226 3,112 5,716 1,465 10,938
50-75 4,722 4,428 6,587 1,768 13,194
75-100 6,544 6,171 8,063 2,286 16,896
100-200 12,277 9,758 11,107 3,433 23,870
200+ 32,113 36,076 25,046 16,882 65,871

Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.
 
2012-10-03 02:19:08 PM
I have to speak to more people and study up on this more, but my preliminary instincts and conversations with wonks suggest to me that the Romney cap, or "bucket" as he calls it, would just whack the upper middle class.

Sounds legit.

I'm not saying Romney isn't a scumbag who would gut you and sell your parts if it were even remotely legal, but this article does not convince me. Show me some real stats.
 
2012-10-03 02:19:33 PM
Well, looking back at what I just posted, that data is way, way out of date. I'll try to find something more current.
 
2012-10-03 02:23:35 PM
Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.
 
2012-10-03 02:25:07 PM

dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.


what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?
 
2012-10-03 02:27:10 PM

FlashHarry: dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.

what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?


It would go, but under the Ryan plan, he'd be paying less than one percent in tax anyway, so who the fark needs deductions?
 
2012-10-03 02:27:26 PM
You go down there, General, if you have the nerve
img685.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 02:31:01 PM

Stoj: Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!

You have itemized deductions greater than $17k per year?


Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year- that's $12,000 right there. Throw in the $4000 tuition and fee deduction for his wife, and you're at $16,0000 before he gives anything to charity, adds up his state and local taxes, has any job related expense (which he will, because he works oversees), has any medical bills or pays any student loans.

If he has kids, this guy is Romney's "47%".

Now think about that for a second. This guy, Nofun, is someone who considers himself a victim and will never take responsibility for his life, according to Mitt Romney.
 
2012-10-03 02:31:15 PM
From another article that gives more details:

Only about 30 percent of taxpayers itemize their deductions, according to the Tax Policy Center, and they are concentrated in the higher income groups. About 80 percent of the benefits of deductions go to the top 20 percent of taxpayers, and about one-quarter of the benefits go to the top 1 percent.

Counterpoint:

"Many families deduct much more than $17,000 now," the [Obama] campaign said in a release on its website.

It cited Internal Revenue Service statistics that show in 2009 more than 6 million taxpayers with an adjusted gross income of between $75,000 and $100,000 had deductions for mortgages, state and local taxes and charitable giving averaging $17,328. There were 9.7 million taxpayers with incomes between $100,000 and $200,000 who deducted an average of $28,999 for mortgage interest alone, according to the campaign.


I don't know the specifics but I thought Romney's QUOTE/UNQUOTE Plan came with a rate decrease as well.

Whatever. My point was link to a decent article when it comes to sh*t like this.
 
2012-10-03 02:34:56 PM

what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year


He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

Regardless, I think the article is garbage. I can talk to a few wonks myself and then publish a completely different conclusion and cite nothing but hypotheticals. Would a $17k cap affect some folks making below $100k/year? Likely. Would it effect more middle class than upper class, ie "the rich"? I can't tell.
 
2012-10-03 02:38:51 PM
Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.
 
2012-10-03 02:41:28 PM

dahmers love zombie: It would go, but under the Ryan plan, he'd be paying less than one percent in tax anyway, so who the fark needs deductions?


that seems legit.
 
2012-10-03 02:43:34 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.


I'd be all for a more straightforward tax code. Then we'd actually know WTF is going on when shiat changes. Right now, you still have people longing for tax rates from decades ago, even though deductions could have been more ridiculous back then than they are now. It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison between today and the 1950s and 1960s.
 
2012-10-03 02:44:30 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?


You want a business that spends $50,000 on inventory to pay taxes on the gross $75,000 revenue it receives selling that inventory, not the $25,000 in net profits?
 
2012-10-03 02:45:24 PM

Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.


What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-03 02:49:30 PM
Come to think of it, a capitalist is someone who suplys the capital input of production. Capitalisim is a mode of production. So, did Romney make money on the production of things? If not, then he is more of a bandit than a capitalist.
 
2012-10-03 02:50:31 PM

what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.


I live near Chicago. I don't know if I could have purchased a $350,000 condo when I was making $75k, but who knows. My point really was that I have a hard time buying that a cap on deductions would hurt the middle class more than the upper class.
 
2012-10-03 02:52:03 PM

kronicfeld: vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

You want a business that spends $50,000 on inventory to pay taxes on the gross $75,000 revenue it receives selling that inventory, not the $25,000 in net profits?


Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?
 
2012-10-03 02:58:12 PM

dahmers love zombie: Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?


Self-employed "people" get to take the very same deductions even if not operating through a separate business entity.
 
2012-10-03 02:58:13 PM
Please do not mistake my posts here to indicate a naive assumption that a Romney presidency would be good for anyone who posts here regularly, because I do not believe that to be true.

There would truly need to be more details released before I could determine exactly how I was being screwed over. 

/long sentences with poor structure ftw
 
2012-10-03 02:59:21 PM

what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.


I don't think you're getting it. To most people, the phrase "living within your means" implies not buying things you can't afford.

If you can't afford a modest house, you shouldn't buy a modest house.
 
2012-10-03 03:07:56 PM

serial_crusher: what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.

I don't think you're getting it. To most people, the phrase "living within your means" implies not buying things you can't afford.

If you can't afford a modest house, you shouldn't buy a modest house.


So..you think people should buy houses in cash? Really? At the current rates, a $300,000 note is about $1400 a month. That is VERY doable with an $80k income, and he said his wife is in school and will presumably be getting a job when she's done, so they would make more.
 
2012-10-03 03:08:56 PM
I bet President Obama knows this, and I also bet he brings that up tonight. I'd love to see the look on Mitt's face when he has to defend it.
 
2012-10-03 03:11:57 PM
The thing that bugs me most about mortgage interest deduction is what qualifies for it. Basically anyplace that has a space to sleep, sanitary facilities and 'kitchen' facilities qualifies.

So mobile homes, boats with a toilet and kitchenette and RVs all count. And there does not seem to be a limit on the number that you can have. If you are rich enough to afford payments on 2 houses, a condo, an RV and 2 boats, you could take all of them as deductions from what I understand.

I would compromise by allowing the primary residence + a cap on deductions for all other qualifying ones, say $10,000.
That should not impact most people.
 
2012-10-03 03:12:05 PM

Coco LaFemme: I bet President Obama knows this, and I also bet he brings that up tonight. I'd love to see the look on Mitt's face when he has to defend it.


Obama is going to try and keep the whole debate about taxes. There are just too many ways Romney fails on that subject.
 
2012-10-03 03:17:09 PM

kronicfeld: dahmers love zombie: Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?

Self-employed "people" get to take the very same deductions even if not operating through a separate business entity.


Read my comment again. I could give a shiat about the self-employed. If a corporation has the same rights as a person, then that corporation should have the same tax obligations. If every HUMAN gets a "set" deduction, a la Romney's "idea", then corporations get the same deduction.

Or, alternatively, we can strip corporations of their free speech rights and limit their ability to interfere in political affairs, and I'm happy to let them keep their tax deductions. Either way works.
 
2012-10-03 03:26:53 PM
I'm guessing it mostly hits above $100,000 and below $400,000. The richer you get, the more likely you will benefit from a 20% tax reduction than suffer from a deduction limitation.
 
2012-10-03 03:32:36 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.


Vampire Capitist?
 
2012-10-03 03:50:04 PM

Stoj: what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.

I live near Chicago. I don't know if I could have purchased a $350,000 condo when I was making $75k, but who knows. My point really was that I have a hard time buying that a cap on deductions would hurt the middle class more than the upper class.


$300,000 might be too much for a person making $80K, but including local taxes and interest, a house at $225K with a 4.75% rate would put you over $17K in deductions easily and be affordable to someone making about $75,000 (assuming a front end ratio of 28%, which is within an acceptable range, but is still a little high for my tastes).
 
2012-10-03 04:16:50 PM

what_now: Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college,


Right? They're not only poor, they're too dumb to just ask their parents for the money for school and live off the dividends from the stocks their Dad gave them.

How do those morons even get accepted to a college?
 
2012-10-03 04:42:08 PM
now now subby

this is a shocker:

www.wrongtees.com

//hot
 
2012-10-03 04:44:46 PM
VC FMs will go to great lengths to lower their tax burden and then trade war stories at FM meetings. Romney running for president is the show stopper, how can you top that one with your tax shelters and blood diamonds.
 
2012-10-03 04:45:27 PM
24.media.tumblr.com

24.media.tumblr.com

25.media.tumblr.com

I'm totally shocked that Mitt Romney would suggest this.

/sarcasm.
 
2012-10-03 04:46:55 PM
When rates were up, we were getting a ton back due to the mortgage deduction. Three years ago we refinanced down to about 4, and had trouble making the "You should itemize" break-even point. We just refinanced at 2.75, and probably wont make that point this year.

That said, Romney is an idiot if he thinks this will score points with anyone but his cronies.
 
2012-10-03 04:47:54 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


So Vampire Capitalist then?
 
2012-10-03 04:51:49 PM
Here's a Hint: Everything Mitt has planned hurts the middle class.
 
2012-10-03 04:52:52 PM

Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

Regardless, I think the article is garbage. I can talk to a few wonks myself and then publish a completely different conclusion and cite nothing but hypotheticals. Would a $17k cap affect some folks making below $100k/year? Likely. Would it effect more middle class than upper class, ie "the rich"? I can't tell.


The dude in the article specifically stated upper-middle class and the reason he did so is because those are high salaried earners as opposed to high investment earners. It would undoubtedly affect them in that the high interest and property taxes on their home in addition to their 401ks and IRAs (they make to much for Roth plans) would be quickly capped at $17k leaving them with a much smaller deduction than the lower-middle class.

Not to mention that the value of their homes will fall as the size of their tax shelter shrinks.

There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.
 
2012-10-03 04:53:30 PM
My husband has his own business, an LLC. All business income and deductions are filed as personal income / deductions because thats how LLCs work. If something like this went through, we would be screwed. And we're exactly at that "upper middle class" point. I would put us solidly middle class, no upper.
 
2012-10-03 04:55:14 PM

FlashHarry: dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.

what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?


He only deducted $50.

How in the fark a dancing horse can make you exactly $50 is beyond me.
 
2012-10-03 04:55:58 PM

Rapmaster2000: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

Regardless, I think the article is garbage. I can talk to a few wonks myself and then publish a completely different conclusion and cite nothing but hypotheticals. Would a $17k cap affect some folks making below $100k/year? Likely. Would it effect more middle class than upper class, ie "the rich"? I can't tell.

The dude in the article specifically stated upper-middle class and the reason he did so is because those are high salaried earners as opposed to high investment earners. It would undoubtedly affect them in that the high interest and property taxes on their home in addition to their 401ks and IRAs (they make to much for Roth plans) would be quickly capped at $17k leaving them with a much smaller deduction than the lower-middle class.

Not to mention that the value of their homes will fall as the size of their tax shelter shrinks.

There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.


I should say "with a much smaller deduction as a percentage of their total income than the middle class.". Basically, it's going to hit the upper-middle class hardest.
 
2012-10-03 04:56:02 PM

Rapmaster2000: There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.


Less than 5% of US households make $200,000 or more a year. It is solidly upper class.
 
2012-10-03 04:58:10 PM

sprawl15: FlashHarry: dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.

what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?

He only deducted $50.

How in the fark a dancing horse can make you exactly $50 is beyond me.


rented it out for a pony ride
 
2012-10-03 05:00:31 PM

kronicfeld: [images.hollywood.com image 326x217] 

It's official: this guy is running for President.


I can hear this in Mitt's voice:

i.qkme.me
 
2012-10-03 05:04:32 PM

Dogberry: Parasitic capitalist?


Redundant.
 
2012-10-03 05:05:27 PM
Is that cap for deductions only or for exemptions too?
 
2012-10-03 05:05:39 PM

what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.


He can't conceive it. It's one of those things that, even if you know it intellectually, you don't really get it.
 
2012-10-03 05:05:56 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Rapmaster2000: There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.

Less than 5% of US households make $200,000 or more a year. It is solidly upper class.


Again, there is some difference in academic thought between class segmentation based on salary and there is no agreement near the top. Some segment based on type of income or net worth. $200k is generally classified as an upper-middle class salary. $200k off of investment income would likely not.

But I digress, let's call $150k a year to be the top-limit of upper-middle class. Those people get creamed too.
 
2012-10-03 05:06:38 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Rapmaster2000: There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.

Less than 5% of US households make $200,000 or more a year. It is solidly upper class.


Strongly disagree. For one thing, a lot less than 5% of the population is upper class, in my opinion. For another, you can't determine class without knowing expenses. Somebody could make $200K a year and still end up living in an apartment with roomates in San Francisco trying to make ends meet (a huge amount of college debt doesn't help). In fact, I know someone in that exact situation.
 
2012-10-03 05:06:41 PM
Hmmm... I was musing about what possible ways he'd be able to fark over the middle class in a thread yesterday and here it is... and right on the same day as the debate. Good luck with that Mitt.
 
2012-10-03 05:06:55 PM

what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.


They're probably just too lazy to sell their stocks.
 
2012-10-03 05:10:30 PM
Actually this plan makes a lot of sense, but I'm glad this guy at the Daily Beast got his article out before he can "speak to more people and study up on this more."
 
2012-10-03 05:10:57 PM

FlashHarry: i just want him to say what other loopholes he'll close. mortgage deduction? charitable giving deduction?


That would limit those. He is already saying he would limit those.
 
2012-10-03 05:11:12 PM
I'm not a Romney fan, but this article seems to be off-target on a few criticisms:

But this change would crush households making $150,000 or $200,000. For example, a couple with a $400,000 mortgage, say, pays upwards of $10,000 a year in mortgage interest alone. Throw in state and local taxes and you hit $17,000 pretty quick.

Seems to me that state and local taxes have nothing to do with Mitt. Is there something specific to property taxes that you get to deduct, or is the author comparing apples and oranges? And then he goes on to say this:

So it creates a situation where one taxpayer gets to deduct her contributions but another one doesn't get to deduct his because he has a bigger mortgage.

That's not true -- the hypothetical taxpayer with the bigger mortgage would still get to deduct the first $17,000. This is the same mistake that Republicans often make with progressive taxation -- they think it's unfair that poor people pay a lower rate than a richer one, missing the fact that the richer person still takes home more money after taxes.

The main point that the author missed is that Mitt still pays a 14% effective rate even with these reforms. Unless Mitt is also going to propose that capital gains be counted with regular income, that top 0.1% that earns most of their income through investment isn't going to be contributing any more to the general welfare while forcing the middle class to bear more of the burden.
 
2012-10-03 05:11:40 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


"Parasite Capitalist" I guess just doesn't have that ring.
 
2012-10-03 05:11:55 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Philip Francis Queeg: Rapmaster2000: There is some controversy as to where you segment classes so that may be leading to the misunderstanding. $200k a year hasn't been upper-class for a long time.

Less than 5% of US households make $200,000 or more a year. It is solidly upper class.

Strongly disagree. For one thing, a lot less than 5% of the population is upper class, in my opinion. For another, you can't determine class without knowing expenses. Somebody could make $200K a year and still end up living in an apartment with roomates in San Francisco trying to make ends meet (a huge amount of college debt doesn't help). In fact, I know someone in that exact situation.


Expense have nothing to do with it.,. The fact is that those roommates have chosen to live in a very expensive city because of the amenities and quality of life there. They only have the luxury to make that choice because of the high pay they receive. That they have chosen to spend their high income a way that some may consider unwise makes them no less upper class.

Everyone wants to think they are middle class. No one wants to admit how well off they are as compared to the average American.
 
2012-10-03 05:12:02 PM
Dancing horse trainers employed by Nofun:0

Dancing horse trainers employed by Romney: 1

Imagine how many dancing horse jobs Romney could create if he paid fewer taxes,
 
2012-10-03 05:13:12 PM
The thing is that Romney has been claiming that his tax deduction fixes combined with his rate cuts will result in a budget neutral tax code that will leave middle income people paying less and, but $17,000 is almost exactly the upper limit of the lowest quintile (93% of which didn't have a federal income tax liability). 60% of the second lowest quintile earners had no federal income tax liability, and about 30% of the middle quintile had no federal income tax liability either. In other words, even though these are the people who theoretically should be seeing savings, about 45% of people making between $17,000 a year and $60,000 a year will see their rates increase definitely, as will other people who have itemized deductions.

This is easily spun as a "skin in the game" move, which allows a pivot towards the 47% stuff.
 
2012-10-03 05:13:30 PM

sprawl15: How in the fark a dancing horse can make you exactly $50 is beyond me.


Bachelor party thought he said "dancing hoes" and a wacky mixup ensued.
 
2012-10-03 05:13:41 PM

what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.


Wait, really?! I just got a new job this year and I was planning on using that. Are you talking $75k taxable or gross?
 
2012-10-03 05:14:27 PM
Considering that he has no other firm policy positions, the ony conclusion I can draw is that Mitt is running for President primarily so he can give himself a tax cut.
 
2012-10-03 05:16:16 PM

dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.


Hey, where are your sources? Also, what does it (they?) say about the standard deduction? That's usually higher for lower incomes.
 
2012-10-03 05:19:06 PM

Aarontology: Dogberry: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Parasitic capitalist?

parasites generally reach some sort of homeostasis with their host so they can continue their feedings.

Romney is more like a locust capitalist. He takes everything he can before moving onto the next company.


How about virus?
 
2012-10-03 05:36:17 PM

dahmers love zombie: Oh, here's a table of average itemized deductions:

Average Itemized Deductions - United States
AGI (-000) Medical Taxes Interest Contributions Total
$15-30 $5,390 $2,270 $5,442 $1,338 $10,306
30-50 4,226 3,112 5,716 1,465 10,938
50-75 4,722 4,428 6,587 1,768 13,194
75-100 6,544 6,171 8,063 2,286 16,896
100-200 12,277 9,758 11,107 3,433 23,870
200+ 32,113 36,076 25,046 16,882 65,871

Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.


Now, is that the average of just people who itemize or the average of all people in those brackets?

Either way, the folks who do take those deductions are going to be hit really hard
 
2012-10-03 05:36:49 PM

raanne: My husband has his own business, an LLC. All business income and deductions are filed as personal income / deductions because thats how LLCs work. If something like this went through, we would be screwed. And we're exactly at that "upper middle class" point. I would put us solidly middle class, no upper.


S-Corps too as that income flows through to the owners 1040. I have a couple of clients with well over

Lupine Chemist: what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.

Wait, really?! I just got a new job this year and I was planning on using that. Are you talking $75k taxable or gross?


I think limits on deductions are based on taxable income, but I am no 100% certain on that.
 
2012-10-03 05:39:09 PM
i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-10-03 05:39:41 PM
So...everyone wants tax cuts now?
 
2012-10-03 05:40:12 PM

what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.


He will. He has already said that more loans is causing higher tuition (and frankly, he might be right. Banks are happy to give students money so schools just charge more and then banks give more money, etc.)... so he will gladly make loans harder to get.
 
2012-10-03 05:48:35 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Aarontology: Dogberry: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Parasitic capitalist?

parasites generally reach some sort of homeostasis with their host so they can continue their feedings.

Romney is more like a locust capitalist. He takes everything he can before moving onto the next company.

How about virus?


When you see Romney and Bain coming over the horizon, you can be sure your company is about to get some AIDS.
 
2012-10-03 05:52:09 PM
A lot of problems would be solved if we just called capital gains regular income. I'd even be willing to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy if, in return, capital gains were taxed as regular income. Why the hell shouldn't it be, philosophically? It's income! You did work, and you made money. How is that not income?
 
2012-10-03 05:54:30 PM

Citrate1007: Here's a Hint: Everything Mitt has planned hurts the middle class.


Well then just stop being middle class and get rich, duh.
 
2012-10-03 05:54:33 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.


Oversimplifying the tax code would deprive the government of the ability to engage in social engineering. Some things in the tax code are good. The home mortgage deduction incentivizes home ownership. The government wants to get as many people as possible into their own homes, because statistics show that crime is greatly mitigated by home ownership. Also getting rid of charitable deductions would deprive many charities, who would not be able to do a lot of good work. Government would have to raise taxes to give them grants or take over the aid they provide directly.
 
2012-10-03 05:55:24 PM

Tommy Moo: A lot of problems would be solved if we just called capital gains regular income. I'd even be willing to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy if, in return, capital gains were taxed as regular income. Why the hell shouldn't it be, philosophically? It's income! You did work, and you made money. How is that not income?


Because there are some under the mistaken impression that income is taxed twice when the investor receives it, unlike all other income. These people are completely and totally wrong, and refuse to admit that it's taxed exactly the same as any other sum of money that changes hands, the only difference being the business that generated the money in the first place is allowed to deduct business expenses from its taxes.
 
2012-10-03 05:55:27 PM

Tommy Moo: A lot of problems would be solved if we just called capital gains regular income. I'd even be willing to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy if, in return, capital gains were taxed as regular income. Why the hell shouldn't it be, philosophically? It's income! You did work, and you made money. How is that not income?


Well, the work part is debatable unless you were managing your own stock portfolio. It is something I've always wondered though. How come income from investments is considered more sacred than income from something you actually did in the world as a living?
 
2012-10-03 05:57:58 PM

Tommy Moo: vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.

Oversimplifying the tax code would deprive the government of the ability to engage in social engineering. Some things in the tax code are good. The home mortgage deduction incentivizes home ownership. The government wants to get as many people as possible into their own homes, because statistics show that crime is greatly mitigated by home ownership. Also getting rid of charitable deductions would deprive many charities, who would not be able to do a lot of good work. Government would have to raise taxes to give them grants or take over the aid they provide directly.


Donations to charities should only be tax deductible if the charity is independently audited to make sure a certain percentage (I'd say 80%) is actually spend on the goal of the charity.
 
2012-10-03 06:05:27 PM
fta: "would benefit the rich enormously, especially those whose greater share of income comes from capital gains."

wut?
it doesn't matter where the rich get their income from, if the limit on deductions is 17,000, they would be hit really hard by the limit of deductions.

it does not favor the wealthy at all.

isn't this what people wanted? stop all those deductions that the rich take?
 
2012-10-03 06:09:18 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


wut? didn't you get the memo that everyone has to share the burden.
If you are earning so much, you should be happy to contribute more.

Don't you think this impacts the rich guy who has a mortgage deduction on the first $1M of his home value a lot more than it impacts you?
 
2012-10-03 06:11:02 PM

Mercutio74: Tommy Moo: A lot of problems would be solved if we just called capital gains regular income. I'd even be willing to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy if, in return, capital gains were taxed as regular income. Why the hell shouldn't it be, philosophically? It's income! You did work, and you made money. How is that not income?

Well, the work part is debatable unless you were managing your own stock portfolio. It is something I've always wondered though. How come income from investments is considered more sacred than income from something you actually did in the world as a living?


because the government wants to provide an incentive for people to take a risk and invest in the economy.
 
2012-10-03 06:15:34 PM
And now this dumbass comes in and pretends like there isn't also a 20% rate cut included. Time to get outran this thread.
 
2012-10-03 06:15:39 PM
Another thing most are missing here is it CAPS your deduction at $17k. So if the hypothetical middle class family usually gets $17k in deductions NOTHING WILL CHANGE for them. If they used to deduct $18k, now they can only deduct $17K, which is like $5 difference in taxes.

Not that I'm for this plan, but it at least looks like he's trying to pander to middle class people.
 
2012-10-03 06:16:57 PM

Uchiha_Cycliste: Aarontology: Dogberry: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Parasitic capitalist?

parasites generally reach some sort of homeostasis with their host so they can continue their feedings.

Romney is more like a locust capitalist. He takes everything he can before moving onto the next company.

How about virus?


The word you're looking for is "vampire".

/cue pics of sparkly Mittens
 
2012-10-03 06:17:12 PM

vpb: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Lamprey capitalist doesn't have the same ring to it.

The parasite vs scavenger thing is a good point though.


Agreed, there should be some homology with the original term, "venture capitalist".

Vampire capitalist?
 
2012-10-03 06:18:28 PM

tenpoundsofcheese:

Don't you think this impacts the rich guy who has a mortgage deduction on the first $1M of his home value a lot more than it impacts you?


I'd like to know how to deduct my home's value. My deduction would be huge.
 
2012-10-03 06:20:22 PM
Aw dammit, beaten by Savage Wombat, by one post.

*slumps shoulders, shuffles away while "The Lonely Man" plays*
 
2012-10-03 06:21:32 PM
Most of Romney's base is upper middle class who think they would benefit from having someone like him stimulate the economy and give them a tax break.

So now he comes up with a plan that will put a tax HIKE on upper middle class people and small businesses.

Capping the mortgage interest deduction will probably cause house prices to drop (less demand) thereby hurting all homeowners...as if, there weren't a whole bunch of people out there who are underwater on their house.

Is he trying to lose?
 
2012-10-03 06:23:03 PM
My buddy and I were talking about this at lunch. Here are a few we came up with that should be wiped out:

Deducting stock losses (huge benefit for the wealthy)
Capital gains not being taxed as income (huge benefit for the wealthy)
Mortgage deductions (benefits middle class/wealthy)
Charitable deductions
Any government subsidy to corps/farming

What else?
 
2012-10-03 06:26:09 PM

Parthenogenetic: Vampire capitalist?


aspiringmama.com

THIS 

/Hot.
 
2012-10-03 06:26:18 PM

cloud_van_dame: Most of Romney's base is upper middle class who think they would benefit from having someone like him stimulate the economy and give them a tax break.

So now he comes up with a plan that will put a tax HIKE on upper middle class people and small businesses.

Capping the mortgage interest deduction will probably cause house prices to drop (less demand) thereby hurting all homeowners...as if, there weren't a whole bunch of people out there who are underwater on their house.

Is he trying to lose?


The upper-middle class is around 15% of the population. It's not enough people, and regardless, Romney and Obama split the group according to Gallup. Limousine Libs as they would say.,

No, sadly, the two locks for Romney are the upper-upper class (old money) and the rural, working-class, white voter. One wants to keep their money. One wants to... I don't want to say "get rid of the darkie", but what the hell is their motivation?
 
2012-10-03 06:26:58 PM
My wife makes $65,000 a year. I make $55,000. Our property taxes alone are $10,800 a year. She has student loans up to wazoo (she's a teacher with a masters degree). We'd hit that cap crazy quick.

My father left Brazil in the 70's because the country had no middle class, and came to America to work hard to be part of the middle class here.

Now, Brazil may soon pass us in income equality - mostly because of shiat like this.

I'm not paying your taxes Mitt. fark off.
 
2012-10-03 06:31:57 PM
That is to say, all of your deductions--state and local taxes, mortgage interest, home repair, charitable contributions--would be capped at $17,000.

Also known as "The Romney Plan to Crush the Housing Market and Re-Tank the Economy Within a Single Week".
 
2012-10-03 06:37:08 PM

Rapmaster2000: tenpoundsofcheese:

Don't you think this impacts the rich guy who has a mortgage deduction on the first $1M of his home value a lot more than it impacts you?

I'd like to know how to deduct my home's value. My deduction would be huge.


You can't deduct the home value. Didn't you know that? I said the mortgage deduction (which is limited to a $1M mortgage)
 
2012-10-03 06:38:32 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Rapmaster2000: tenpoundsofcheese:

Don't you think this impacts the rich guy who has a mortgage deduction on the first $1M of his home value a lot more than it impacts you?

I'd like to know how to deduct my home's value. My deduction would be huge.

You can't deduct the home value. Didn't you know that? I said the mortgage deduction (which is limited to a $1M mortgage)


I regret even letting you think you could set the hook.
 
2012-10-03 06:38:32 PM
Yes, so. The $17K deduction cap, combined with the personal exemption means about $23K of tax freedom. That's hilarious when you consider the half of the working population of the USSA brings home about $35K per year each. That's about $16.50 per hour.
What's the tax on $6,000 of adjusted gross income? Ten percent.
Assuming any ordinary person could take all $17,000 of deductions and not get yourself audited up the anus. Of course, a person who qualified for all of those deductions probably couldn't afford to live, either.

Rmoney is so out of touch with real life he might as well not have hands.
 
2012-10-03 06:42:26 PM

sno man: AdolfOliverPanties: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.

Vampire Capitist?


Ventrue Capitalist?
 
2012-10-03 06:42:37 PM

organizmx: My wife makes $65,000 a year. I make $55,000. Our property taxes alone are $10,800 a year. She has student loans up to wazoo (she's a teacher with a masters degree). We'd hit that cap crazy quick.

My father left Brazil in the 70's because the country had no middle class, and came to America to work hard to be part of the middle class here.

Now, Brazil may soon pass us in income equality - mostly because of shiat like this.

I'm not paying your taxes Mitt. fark off.


If you are making so much money and live in such a luxurious place that your property taxes are so high, you shouldn't whine that your deductions are capped to 14% of your gross income.

Besides, student loan interest deduction is capped at 2,500 (although I am not sure why the taxpayer should subsidize that), so what is the big deal?

You need to share the wealth more. Come on, even Biden would ask what happened to your patriotism?
 
2012-10-03 06:53:49 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: because the government wants to provide an incentive for people to take a risk and invest in the economy.


So the government thinks it's more of an advantage to invest in the economy than to participate in the economy via labour? Also, even if capital gains were taxed at a reasonable level (like say, pre-Clinton) rich folks would still invest because it's the only way to put your money to work. If you look at the history of the capital gains tax, the country actually did better when it was higher.
 
2012-10-03 06:54:36 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: organizmx: My wife makes $65,000 a year. I make $55,000. Our property taxes alone are $10,800 a year. She has student loans up to wazoo (she's a teacher with a masters degree). We'd hit that cap crazy quick.

My father left Brazil in the 70's because the country had no middle class, and came to America to work hard to be part of the middle class here.

Now, Brazil may soon pass us in income equality - mostly because of shiat like this.

I'm not paying your taxes Mitt. fark off.

If you are making so much money and live in such a luxurious place that your property taxes are so high, you shouldn't whine that your deductions are capped to 14% of your gross income.

Besides, student loan interest deduction is capped at 2,500 (although I am not sure why the taxpayer should subsidize that), so what is the big deal?

You need to share the wealth more. Come on, even Biden would ask what happened to your patriotism?


Dude, we live in New Jersey. We're solid middle class. Average home price here is $350,000. $10,000 is absolutely average property taxes. I have a 2.5 bedroom house on a 50x100 lot. Cost of living is a bit higher here than Texas.

Wait, was I just trolled?
 
2012-10-03 07:03:52 PM

organizmx: tenpoundsofcheese: organizmx: My wife makes $65,000 a year. I make $55,000. Our property taxes alone are $10,800 a year. She has student loans up to wazoo (she's a teacher with a masters degree). We'd hit that cap crazy quick.

My father left Brazil in the 70's because the country had no middle class, and came to America to work hard to be part of the middle class here.

Now, Brazil may soon pass us in income equality - mostly because of shiat like this.

I'm not paying your taxes Mitt. fark off.

If you are making so much money and live in such a luxurious place that your property taxes are so high, you shouldn't whine that your deductions are capped to 14% of your gross income.

Besides, student loan interest deduction is capped at 2,500 (although I am not sure why the taxpayer should subsidize that), so what is the big deal?

You need to share the wealth more. Come on, even Biden would ask what happened to your patriotism?

Dude, we live in New Jersey. We're solid middle class. Average home price here is $350,000. $10,000 is absolutely average property taxes. I have a 2.5 bedroom house on a 50x100 lot. Cost of living is a bit higher here than Texas.



No, the average property tax bill in NJ is $7800. So you are way above average.
Stop whining and stop with the "I have mine, stay away from my money".
 
2012-10-03 07:05:40 PM

Mercutio74: tenpoundsofcheese: because the government wants to provide an incentive for people to take a risk and invest in the economy.

So the government thinks it's more of an advantage to invest in the economy than to participate in the economy via labour? Also, even if capital gains were taxed at a reasonable level (like say, pre-Clinton) rich folks would still invest because it's the only way to put your money to work. If you look at the history of the capital gains tax, the country actually did better when it was higher.


another person who doesn't understand that correlation != causality.

funny, that you say pre-Clinton, when during Clinton and the lower tax rate, the economy did just fine.
 
2012-10-03 07:19:32 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.


I hope you weren't serious about the last sentence. Congress had enough problems extending retraining benefits for people whose manufacturing jobs went oversees, they won't want to spend more on retraining *cough*bootstraps*cough*
 
2012-10-03 07:19:40 PM

Slives: So mobile homes, boats with a toilet and kitchenette and RVs all count.


No, sorry. The mortgage interest deduction only applies to the owner-occupied primary residence. You can depreciate everything else in your itemization, with mortgage interesting being accounted in your cost, but it's nowhere near the same.
 
2012-10-03 07:29:50 PM

dahmers love zombie: Oh, here's a table of average itemized deductions:

Average Itemized Deductions - United States
AGI (-000) Medical Taxes Interest Contributions Total
$15-30 $5,390 $2,270 $5,442 $1,338 $10,306
30-50 4,226 3,112 5,716 1,465 10,938
50-75 4,722 4,428 6,587 1,768 13,194
75-100 6,544 6,171 8,063 2,286 16,896
100-200 12,277 9,758 11,107 3,433 23,870
200+ 32,113 36,076 25,046 16,882 65,871

Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.


Here is the thing. I am in that range and I honestly don't mind paying a little more. We need to pay our bills and I like the services, for the most part, that our government provides. He wants me to pay more and to pay less himself, and that is repugnant.
 
2012-10-03 07:32:08 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


Jeebus, NoFun, well put!
 
2012-10-03 07:38:25 PM

dahmers love zombie: Oh, here's a table of average itemized deductions:

Average Itemized Deductions - United States
AGI (-000) Medical Taxes Interest Contributions Total
$15-30 $5,390 $2,270 $5,442 $1,338 $10,306
30-50 4,226 3,112 5,716 1,465 10,938
50-75 4,722 4,428 6,587 1,768 13,194
75-100 6,544 6,171 8,063 2,286 16,896
100-200 12,277 9,758 11,107 3,433 23,870
200+ 32,113 36,076 25,046 16,882 65,871

Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.


do you have the data for the upper, upper, income brackets? Or does it stop at 200+?
Curious about the deductions millionaires have.
 
2012-10-03 07:40:57 PM

Stoj: I have to speak to more people and study up on this more, but my preliminary instincts and conversations with wonks suggest to me that the Romney cap, or "bucket" as he calls it, would just whack the upper middle class.

Sounds legit.

I'm not saying Romney isn't a scumbag who would gut you and sell your parts if it were even remotely legal, but this article does not convince me. Show me some real stats.


Right. REAL stats... as opposed to those wiggly-quasi-stats you've been shown a hundred times now. Where's the truthiness in this article? Right out! That's where.

Eff this, I'm off to my debate-watching party... don't worry, I'll bring popcorn.
 
2012-10-03 07:51:54 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.

do you have the data for the upper, upper, income brackets? Or does it stop at 200+?
Curious about the deductions millionaires have.



Nevermind. Found it here

A filer with an AGI of 500k would have deductions reduced from 77k to 17k.
with a 750K AGI goes from 98k to 17k.

Yeah, this is a big benefit to the wealthy.
 
2012-10-03 08:11:12 PM
Tax Policy Center weighs in:

"This is targeting high-income people and would hit them pretty hard," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington.

Almost all of the top 1 percent of taxpayers itemize their deductions, and those itemizers average $173,670 in deductions.


Link
 
2012-10-03 08:16:06 PM

Lupine Chemist: what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.

Wait, really?! I just got a new job this year and I was planning on using that. Are you talking $75k taxable or gross?


Taxable income- you should sell some of your stocks at a loss.

Wait..you don't have stocks??

peasant.
 
2012-10-03 08:30:24 PM

what_now: Lupine Chemist: what_now: Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.

Wait, really?! I just got a new job this year and I was planning on using that. Are you talking $75k taxable or gross?

Taxable income- you should sell some of your stocks at a loss.

.


No, it is NOT based on taxable income.
It is based on "modified adjusted gross income" which adds back to your agi, things like IRA contributions and student loan deductions.

By the way, after 2012, you only get to deduct the first 5 years of interest. Bush extended that for all years as part of the evil Bush tax cuts, but that expires in 2012.
 
2012-10-03 09:06:33 PM

FlashHarry: what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.

he's already talking about lowering it. that would be political suicide.


Between Mitt Romney's plan to reduce the mortgage interest rate deduction (my biggest deduction, like most other people my age) and to eliminate the payroll tax reduction, I'm estimating that a Mitt Romney Presidency would cost me about:

$6,000 a year, or
$24,000 over 4 years


Where would that money go? It would go from my bank account to someone like Mitt Romney so they didn't have to pay capital gains on money they aren't even working for anymore. All so future generations of entitled Romney's can avoid working for a living, and talk about how much we all owe them.

THAT is wealth redistribution my friends! From the bottom up - like the freaking Mob!
 
2012-10-03 10:09:43 PM

what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.


means testing is just a way of reducing then eliminating something.
 
2012-10-04 02:13:10 AM
lets apply the common sense filter here, if you are capping deductions at 17K, sure that hurts me, but it hurts wealthy people more.
 
2012-10-04 04:39:19 AM

what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.


That way, to get the most bang for your buck, you should buy an excessively expensive home as your first home. Then maybe you can flip it later, or anyways you'll just have a higher income!
 
2012-10-04 08:36:34 AM

Tigger: Romney is immoral scum and his supporters are immoral scum by extension


Nah. Most of them were immoral scum from the start. And don't get me started on "ethical".
 
2012-10-04 08:54:12 AM

Discordulator: sno man: AdolfOliverPanties: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.

Vampire Capitist?

Ventrue Capitalist?


Heh, next time I run a VtM campaign I'm making Mitt the Prince of the city
 
2012-10-04 08:54:40 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: fta: "would benefit the rich enormously, especially those whose greater share of income comes from capital gains."

wut?
it doesn't matter where the rich get their income from, if the limit on deductions is 17,000, they would be hit really hard by the limit of deductions.

it does not favor the wealthy at all.

isn't this what people wanted? stop all those deductions that the rich take?


Capital gains isn't subject to regular income tax, and thus the proposed cap would not affect people who get most of their income via capital gains.
 
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