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(The Daily Beast)   Here's a shocker: Mitt's one-and-only tax plan "specific," his $17,000 cap on deductions, hurts the middle class and favors the wealthy   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 137
    More: Obvious, Michael Tomasky, war correspondents, itemized deduction  
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2834 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Oct 2012 at 4:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 12:33:25 PM
i just want him to say what other loopholes he'll close. mortgage deduction? charitable giving deduction?
 
2012-10-03 12:38:21 PM
Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.
 
2012-10-03 12:39:11 PM
The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.
 
2012-10-03 12:41:33 PM

Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.


Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:52 PM

what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.


he's already talking about lowering it. that would be political suicide.
 
2012-10-03 12:46:31 PM
Personally, I'm shocked that Romney hasn't gone after the student loan interest deduction. You have to make less than $75k ($150k if married filing jointly) to qualify, and it pays back interest paid on federal or private student loans.

Someone should tell him that some people are SO POOR that they have to borrow money just to go to college, and then they STILL make less than $75k.
 
2012-10-03 12:51:08 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Parasitic capitalist?
 
2012-10-03 12:51:15 PM

FlashHarry: what_now: The mortgage interest deduction needs to be changed. For one, it should be means tested. I would also approve of making it a FIRST time homeowners deduction, or something that only lasts 5 years or so.

he's already talking about lowering it. that would be political suicide.


He already committed political suicide when he forgot that besides rich white people, women, blacks, latinos, potheads and the poor can vote.
 
2012-10-03 12:51:25 PM
those parasite home owners really need to take personal responsibility and contribute something.
 
2012-10-03 12:53:03 PM

Dogberry: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

Parasitic capitalist?


parasites generally reach some sort of homeostasis with their host so they can continue their feedings.

Romney is more like a locust capitalist. He takes everything he can before moving onto the next company.
 
2012-10-03 12:59:11 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Lamprey capitalism fits nicely.
 
2012-10-03 01:01:48 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.
 
2012-10-03 01:03:16 PM
images.hollywood.com 

It's official: this guy is running for President.
 
2012-10-03 01:20:45 PM
Romney is the Goa'uld of capitalism.

In fact he may actually be one. I'm not sure yet. Has anyone seen him driving any flying pyramids? Does anyone have any proof he doesn't own one?
 
2012-10-03 01:26:13 PM
Romney is immoral scum and his supporters are immoral scum by extension
 
2012-10-03 01:32:11 PM
I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!
 
2012-10-03 01:39:42 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


But if you don't subsidise the rich how will the money trickle back down to you?
 
2012-10-03 01:56:15 PM
But Joe Biden said that the middle class has been hurting this past four years, so therefore MItt Romney is now President and Obama has to do a reality show in Alaska.
 
2012-10-03 02:02:05 PM
Double post fail >
Mods, please remove.
 
2012-10-03 02:11:01 PM
The guy didn't really connect the dots on his argument that it benefits people who make most of their money on capital gains tax. They have less deductibles because what, they didn't pay state income tax on all that money that they're not being taxed on anyhow?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-03 02:14:47 PM

kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.


Lamprey capitalist doesn't have the same ring to it.

The parasite vs scavenger thing is a good point though.
 
2012-10-03 02:17:02 PM

Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!


You have itemized deductions greater than $17k per year?
 
2012-10-03 02:18:21 PM
Oh, here's a table of average itemized deductions:

Average Itemized Deductions - United States
AGI (-000) Medical Taxes Interest Contributions Total
$15-30 $5,390 $2,270 $5,442 $1,338 $10,306
30-50 4,226 3,112 5,716 1,465 10,938
50-75 4,722 4,428 6,587 1,768 13,194
75-100 6,544 6,171 8,063 2,286 16,896
100-200 12,277 9,758 11,107 3,433 23,870
200+ 32,113 36,076 25,046 16,882 65,871

Sorry if it didn't render very well. Note the bold. The AVERAGE taxpayer making 75,000 to 100,000 claims almost $17,000 in deductions. So this plan would nail the majority of households that earned more than $100K. Yeah, he's planning on farking the middle-class right in the ear.
 
2012-10-03 02:19:08 PM
I have to speak to more people and study up on this more, but my preliminary instincts and conversations with wonks suggest to me that the Romney cap, or "bucket" as he calls it, would just whack the upper middle class.

Sounds legit.

I'm not saying Romney isn't a scumbag who would gut you and sell your parts if it were even remotely legal, but this article does not convince me. Show me some real stats.
 
2012-10-03 02:19:33 PM
Well, looking back at what I just posted, that data is way, way out of date. I'll try to find something more current.
 
2012-10-03 02:23:35 PM
Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.
 
2012-10-03 02:25:07 PM

dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.


what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?
 
2012-10-03 02:27:10 PM

FlashHarry: dahmers love zombie: Found the 2008 numbers. For people earning between 30K and 50K, the average itemized deduction is $17,700. For people earning between 50K and 100K, the average itemized deduction is $26,500. So yes, Romney's $17,000 catch-all deduction will absolutely bend the middle-class over a barrel.

what about the $76,000 romney deducted for his dressage horse. would that go too? won't somebody think of the dressage horse owners?


It would go, but under the Ryan plan, he'd be paying less than one percent in tax anyway, so who the fark needs deductions?
 
2012-10-03 02:27:26 PM
You go down there, General, if you have the nerve
img685.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 02:31:01 PM

Stoj: Nofun: I make less than 80k a year, and to get that I work 60 hours a week in a job that requires a four year degree. I also work a few months out of the year overseas. I have no debt besides credit cards which I pay off every month. I did this by living within my means, and paying off student loans and auto loans before spending on things I wanted. My wife is in grad school, that costs over 25k per year for tuition and books, and it's a 3-year degree. We consider ourselves very fortunate in that we live comfortably and I have a good-paying job.

So, Romney wants to pay down the debt (which has ballooned recently because of wars, favorable tax legislation for business and the wealthy, and entitlement/assistance programs) by limiting MY deductions to 17k a year? Um no, you farking dolt! I've worked hard for my damn money, and I don't think it's remotely fair to penalize ME so your multimillionaire a$$ can continue getting a lower tax rate than me! The working class subsidize everyone else in this country already, it's BS that we should have to subsidize them more!

You have itemized deductions greater than $17k per year?


Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year- that's $12,000 right there. Throw in the $4000 tuition and fee deduction for his wife, and you're at $16,0000 before he gives anything to charity, adds up his state and local taxes, has any job related expense (which he will, because he works oversees), has any medical bills or pays any student loans.

If he has kids, this guy is Romney's "47%".

Now think about that for a second. This guy, Nofun, is someone who considers himself a victim and will never take responsibility for his life, according to Mitt Romney.
 
2012-10-03 02:31:15 PM
From another article that gives more details:

Only about 30 percent of taxpayers itemize their deductions, according to the Tax Policy Center, and they are concentrated in the higher income groups. About 80 percent of the benefits of deductions go to the top 20 percent of taxpayers, and about one-quarter of the benefits go to the top 1 percent.

Counterpoint:

"Many families deduct much more than $17,000 now," the [Obama] campaign said in a release on its website.

It cited Internal Revenue Service statistics that show in 2009 more than 6 million taxpayers with an adjusted gross income of between $75,000 and $100,000 had deductions for mortgages, state and local taxes and charitable giving averaging $17,328. There were 9.7 million taxpayers with incomes between $100,000 and $200,000 who deducted an average of $28,999 for mortgage interest alone, according to the campaign.


I don't know the specifics but I thought Romney's QUOTE/UNQUOTE Plan came with a rate decrease as well.

Whatever. My point was link to a decent article when it comes to sh*t like this.
 
2012-10-03 02:34:56 PM

what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year


He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

Regardless, I think the article is garbage. I can talk to a few wonks myself and then publish a completely different conclusion and cite nothing but hypotheticals. Would a $17k cap affect some folks making below $100k/year? Likely. Would it effect more middle class than upper class, ie "the rich"? I can't tell.
 
2012-10-03 02:38:51 PM
Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.
 
2012-10-03 02:41:28 PM

dahmers love zombie: It would go, but under the Ryan plan, he'd be paying less than one percent in tax anyway, so who the fark needs deductions?


that seems legit.
 
2012-10-03 02:43:34 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

Individuals and businesses can do their taxes on a 1040 EZ form.

With the money we save, we can help re-train all the lawyers and accountants who would lose their jobs.


I'd be all for a more straightforward tax code. Then we'd actually know WTF is going on when shiat changes. Right now, you still have people longing for tax rates from decades ago, even though deductions could have been more ridiculous back then than they are now. It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison between today and the 1950s and 1960s.
 
2012-10-03 02:44:30 PM

vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?


You want a business that spends $50,000 on inventory to pay taxes on the gross $75,000 revenue it receives selling that inventory, not the $25,000 in net profits?
 
2012-10-03 02:45:24 PM

Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.


What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-03 02:49:30 PM
Come to think of it, a capitalist is someone who suplys the capital input of production. Capitalisim is a mode of production. So, did Romney make money on the production of things? If not, then he is more of a bandit than a capitalist.
 
2012-10-03 02:50:31 PM

what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.


I live near Chicago. I don't know if I could have purchased a $350,000 condo when I was making $75k, but who knows. My point really was that I have a hard time buying that a cap on deductions would hurt the middle class more than the upper class.
 
2012-10-03 02:52:03 PM

kronicfeld: vernonFL: Not that Romney (or anyone, actually) would ever do this, but why not close ALL loopholes and deductions?

You want a business that spends $50,000 on inventory to pay taxes on the gross $75,000 revenue it receives selling that inventory, not the $25,000 in net profits?


Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?
 
2012-10-03 02:58:12 PM

dahmers love zombie: Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?


Self-employed "people" get to take the very same deductions even if not operating through a separate business entity.
 
2012-10-03 02:58:13 PM
Please do not mistake my posts here to indicate a naive assumption that a Romney presidency would be good for anyone who posts here regularly, because I do not believe that to be true.

There would truly need to be more details released before I could determine exactly how I was being screwed over. 

/long sentences with poor structure ftw
 
2012-10-03 02:59:21 PM

what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.


I don't think you're getting it. To most people, the phrase "living within your means" implies not buying things you can't afford.

If you can't afford a modest house, you shouldn't buy a modest house.
 
2012-10-03 03:07:56 PM

serial_crusher: what_now: Stoj: what_now: Sure. Let's say you have a $300,000 mortgage at 4% per year

He said he makes less than $80k/year and lives within his means.

What part of the country do you live in? Because in many places, that is a very modest condo or house.

I don't think you're getting it. To most people, the phrase "living within your means" implies not buying things you can't afford.

If you can't afford a modest house, you shouldn't buy a modest house.


So..you think people should buy houses in cash? Really? At the current rates, a $300,000 note is about $1400 a month. That is VERY doable with an $80k income, and he said his wife is in school and will presumably be getting a job when she's done, so they would make more.
 
2012-10-03 03:08:56 PM
I bet President Obama knows this, and I also bet he brings that up tonight. I'd love to see the look on Mitt's face when he has to defend it.
 
2012-10-03 03:11:57 PM
The thing that bugs me most about mortgage interest deduction is what qualifies for it. Basically anyplace that has a space to sleep, sanitary facilities and 'kitchen' facilities qualifies.

So mobile homes, boats with a toilet and kitchenette and RVs all count. And there does not seem to be a limit on the number that you can have. If you are rich enough to afford payments on 2 houses, a condo, an RV and 2 boats, you could take all of them as deductions from what I understand.

I would compromise by allowing the primary residence + a cap on deductions for all other qualifying ones, say $10,000.
That should not impact most people.
 
2012-10-03 03:12:05 PM

Coco LaFemme: I bet President Obama knows this, and I also bet he brings that up tonight. I'd love to see the look on Mitt's face when he has to defend it.


Obama is going to try and keep the whole debate about taxes. There are just too many ways Romney fails on that subject.
 
2012-10-03 03:17:09 PM

kronicfeld: dahmers love zombie: Well, I do expect the "corporations are people" guy to enforce the $17,000 limit on ALL corporations. Wouldn't you?

Self-employed "people" get to take the very same deductions even if not operating through a separate business entity.


Read my comment again. I could give a shiat about the self-employed. If a corporation has the same rights as a person, then that corporation should have the same tax obligations. If every HUMAN gets a "set" deduction, a la Romney's "idea", then corporations get the same deduction.

Or, alternatively, we can strip corporations of their free speech rights and limit their ability to interfere in political affairs, and I'm happy to let them keep their tax deductions. Either way works.
 
2012-10-03 03:26:53 PM
I'm guessing it mostly hits above $100,000 and below $400,000. The richer you get, the more likely you will benefit from a 20% tax reduction than suffer from a deduction limitation.
 
2012-10-03 03:32:36 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: kingoomieiii: Dogberry: Of course a vulture capitalist is going to be licking his chops looking at the fat, juicy morsel that is the mortgage interest deduction.

Vulture Capitalist isn't an accurate title. Vultures don't hunt healthy, living prey and slowly bleed them dry.

That's a good point, but part of what makes it work is "vulture" is close to "venture."

What could we replace it with? Indenture Capitalist? I got nothin.


Vampire Capitist?
 
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