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(Huffington Post)   City of Chicago turns to Twitter for gun control ideas. No, really   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 254
    More: Asinine, Chicago, NBC Chicago, Twitter, police superintendent, murder rate, WGN, systemic problems, drive-by shootings  
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3566 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2012 at 4:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 07:35:12 PM
Twit this: Realize: Legalize.
 
2012-10-03 07:35:20 PM
Can anyone explain to me why were have troops trying to stabalize neighborhoods on the other side of the planet?
 
2012-10-03 07:35:56 PM

Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.


i.e. at least decriminalize, mans. Seriously.
 
2012-10-03 07:41:21 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.

i.e. at least decriminalize, mans. Seriously.



They'll just find something else to fight over.
 
2012-10-03 07:42:23 PM
Simple solution: ever see "Escape From New York"?

Wall them in.
Let nature take its course.
 
2012-10-03 07:42:34 PM

Dimensio: I am certain, then, that you will be able to demonstrate that suicide, negligent discharges, "crimes of passion" and "overzealous vigilantes" increase substantially when civilians are permitted, through at least a "shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit system, to carry firearms in public.


"Substantially," is the operative word there. If you can only have a gun with you 50% of the day vs. 100%, it's apparent that the rate of accidental discharges must be less. Unless you somehow manage to double up on your gun exposure while at home. Crimes of passion and overzealous vigilantism work the same way - if you don't have the gun on you at the time, you can't use it. It's a pure numbers game. There's obviously going to be a negative impact; anyone who says otherwise has their head buried in the sand.

Now, the question is what's the net impact. Is there a positive impact that outweighs the nearly-indisputable negatives? That's where this discussion always breaks down because it's very very hard to quantify a deterrent. How do you measure "crimes that would have happened but didn't because a bystander might have been armed?" IMHO, accessibility isn't that much of a factor every time you make guns easier for criminals to get, you put a dent in the crime surrounding the arms trade itself. There's also the issue of you having a gun possibly turning a robbery into your murder, but in that particular case, the risk is yours and yours alone, so do whichever you want.

So, value public carry as a deterrent for shootings v. shootings avoided because there wasn't a weapon on-hand at the time?
 
2012-10-03 07:52:30 PM

Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.


Then they kill each other to take their stashes away.

WEED REDISTRIBUTION!!!
 
2012-10-03 07:54:20 PM

ProfessorOhki: Dimensio: I am certain, then, that you will be able to demonstrate that suicide, negligent discharges, "crimes of passion" and "overzealous vigilantes" increase substantially when civilians are permitted, through at least a "shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit system, to carry firearms in public.

"Substantially," is the operative word there. If you can only have a gun with you 50% of the day vs. 100%, it's apparent that the rate of accidental discharges must be less. Unless you somehow manage to double up on your gun exposure while at home. Crimes of passion and overzealous vigilantism work the same way - if you don't have the gun on you at the time, you can't use it. It's a pure numbers game. There's obviously going to be a negative impact; anyone who says otherwise has their head buried in the sand.

Now, the question is what's the net impact. Is there a positive impact that outweighs the nearly-indisputable negatives? That's where this discussion always breaks down because it's very very hard to quantify a deterrent. How do you measure "crimes that would have happened but didn't because a bystander might have been armed?" IMHO, accessibility isn't that much of a factor every time you make guns easier for criminals to get, you put a dent in the crime surrounding the arms trade itself. There's also the issue of you having a gun possibly turning a robbery into your murder, but in that particular case, the risk is yours and yours alone, so do whichever you want.

So, value public carry as a deterrent for shootings v. shootings avoided because there wasn't a weapon on-hand at the time?


Crimes of passion, suicide, and vigilantism don't require firearms. If I'm going to kill myself, kill my lover in a jealous rage, or join a mob intent on dispensing justice, the absence of a firearm isn't likely to deter me.
 
2012-10-03 07:56:51 PM

Vectron: Indubitably: Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.

i.e. at least decriminalize, mans. Seriously.


They'll just find something else to fight over.


But they won't have any capital/money to buy expensive guns and ammo, will they? *elbow-knudge*
 
2012-10-03 07:57:29 PM

PallMall: Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.

Then they kill each other to take their stashes away.

WEED REDISTRIBUTION!!!


Briefly.
 
2012-10-03 07:58:44 PM

Indubitably: Vectron: Indubitably: Indubitably: Twit this: Realize: Legalize.

i.e. at least decriminalize, mans. Seriously.


They'll just find something else to fight over.

But they won't have any capital/money to buy expensive guns and ammo, will they? *elbow-knudge*


Yes, I "knudged".
 
2012-10-03 08:01:24 PM
wee
Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

Now is the time to go up north to WI-just say deer hunter and BAM gun in hands. Just try not to show your fibness...
 
2012-10-03 08:03:46 PM

DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.


Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.
 
2012-10-03 08:09:40 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.


"Assholes are assholes. They're just a little darker down here."
--Joseph Wambaugh, The New Centurions
 
2012-10-03 08:10:47 PM

hundreddollarman: Yeah... good luck with that pipe dream. If there's one thing Americans despise most, it's the threat of things being taken away from them. Guns have been an integral component of American culture, dating back to our days as a British colony. Guns in America are here to stay. That genie is never going back in the bottle. So keep dreaming and choosing to be a victim when the shiat hits the fan.


The idea of carrying a gun around for defense is pure fantasy. You are not a character in an action movie, this is real life.

Go ahead, keep blaming the victim -- see how much sympathy that gets you. But when you accidentally shoot someone (or yourself) don't expect any sympathy in return.
 
2012-10-03 08:13:07 PM

natas6.0: why can't we do that here?


Due process. Even worthless piece-of-shiat gang-bangers deserve it.

It's not for their benefit. It's for ours. If you make an exception for anyone, you've made an exception for everyone.
 
2012-10-03 08:16:15 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.


www.chicagonow.com
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?
 
2012-10-03 08:16:31 PM

Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.


Thank you, officer.
 
2012-10-03 08:21:03 PM

Huck Chaser: REKnight: "points a gun at the cashier" DOES NOT EQUAL "intimidation"

If you or anyone else points a gun at me, you or they mean to KILL ME.

Let me say that again: If you or anyone else points a gun at me, you or they mean to KILL ME.

To think otherwise is naivety of the highest order. You have every right to hand over your wallet and hope they don't pull the trigger.

You however DO NOT have a right to take away my opportunity to defend myself or my loved ones.

So lets review. You have a right to be a victim, you DO NOT have a right to make me a victim.

This is a very intelligent and compelling argument (I hope that doesn't sound like sarcasm, because it's not), but I'm afraid that I still disagree with you, and I know you're not going to like my rebuttal because it mostly comes down to philosophy. I understand the benefits of being armed (defending myself if directly threatened with a deadly weapon), but I also understand the risks (suicide, accidents, crimes of passion, overzealous vigilantes), and I believe the risks outweigh the benefits.

/leaving work now, but I'll check this thread tomorrow morning


That's fine and all. Believe whatever you like, live your life by your own understanding.

But you should also understand one important thing. If your philosophy requires that I be legally bound to put myself or my loved ones at risk for your comfort, or have to let violent criminals do as they please to avoid participating in violence, then you are as much my enemy as the violent criminal, and you should suffer consequences for your arrogant and self-righteous denial of other peoples' right to defend their lives.

Of course, pieces of shiat like you rarely have to suffer the consequences of your own thoughtlessness and arrogance. Other people do.

/don't even own a gun, but still want to shoot this idiot.
 
2012-10-03 08:26:40 PM

j__z: gun violence is the symptom of the problem...war on drugs is the cause, take the profit motive out of organized crime and you end crime and gun violence,


Drugs are illegal in most other western countries as well, without the massive rate of gun related fatalities that is, at least among developed nations, unique to the United States.

Of course there is the occasional massacre in other countries such as the recent tragedy in Norway, but they are exceptional incidents. In the US such tragedies have become routine.
 
2012-10-03 08:27:29 PM
I has a brilliant plan that will both reduce Chicago's problem AND increase the population of Detroit .

Phase 1)
Chicago buys a lot of Detroit and a lot of busses.

Phase 2)
Offer people free property in Detroit with a one way bus ticket there.

Phase 3)
Politically correct version:
Load Chicagoans on busses. Drive to Detroit. Get people off busses. Burn busses.

Phase 3)
Version that would help
Load busses with Chicagoans. Drive to an empty lot. Burn busses.
 
2012-10-03 08:39:00 PM

smitty04:
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?


I don't know for sure, but would guess that the people who live there buy their drugs elsewhere.
 
2012-10-03 08:39:31 PM

MrEricSir: hundreddollarman: Yeah... good luck with that pipe dream. If there's one thing Americans despise most, it's the threat of things being taken away from them. Guns have been an integral component of American culture, dating back to our days as a British colony. Guns in America are here to stay. That genie is never going back in the bottle. So keep dreaming and choosing to be a victim when the shiat hits the fan.

The idea of carrying a gun around for defense is pure fantasy. You are not a character in an action movie, this is real life.

Go ahead, keep blaming the victim -- see how much sympathy that gets you. But when you accidentally shoot someone (or yourself) don't expect any sympathy in return.


You are one seriously confused individual.
 
2012-10-03 08:40:25 PM

DaCaptain19: wee: Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

THIS. When I moved to IL (Chicago) it was a culture shock. Having lived in Kansas for 8 years prior, I had multiple firearms and had a conceal-carry card.

Which means nothing in IL, the ONLY state with no way to conceal-carry, you need a FOID card to even get a shotgun shell at Walmart...and yet hghest murder rate in the U.S.

Sh*t...at the very least allow the law-abiding citizens to carry. An armed society is a polite society.


You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

I think there must be something wrong with people who love guns so much. They are nothing more than tools designed to kill. If you need such a tool then what or who are you planning to kill?

As far as carrying them for protection, that is the biggest load of codswallop I have heard in my life. When was the last time any of you gun advocates ever needed to protect yourself with a gun? If the answer is anything other than never then where you live is truly farked up.
 
2012-10-03 08:43:29 PM

ProfessorOhki: DaCaptain19: There's only one thing that will work: Round up anyone in a gang (this will net you 95% blacks and 4.999% hispanics...0.001% whites), no matter how young, line them up against a wall and shoot them all down. Period. No matter whether they've picked up a gun or not. And do this immediately - no warning, no delays, no "due process" which is a joke anyway. Preemptively.

In other news, there are no Asian street gangs.


In Chicago? Only if the Yakuza is running all the BYOB sushi joints in LP and Wrigleyville
 
2012-10-03 08:44:31 PM

kg2095: DaCaptain19: wee: Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

THIS. When I moved to IL (Chicago) it was a culture shock. Having lived in Kansas for 8 years prior, I had multiple firearms and had a conceal-carry card.

Which means nothing in IL, the ONLY state with no way to conceal-carry, you need a FOID card to even get a shotgun shell at Walmart...and yet hghest murder rate in the U.S.

Sh*t...at the very least allow the law-abiding citizens to carry. An armed society is a polite society.

You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

I think there must be something wrong with people who love guns so much. They are nothing more than tools designed to kill. If you need such a tool then what or who are you planning to kill?

As far as carrying them for protection, that is the biggest load of codswallop I have heard in my life. When was the last time any of you gun advocates ever needed to protect yourself with a gun? If the answer is anything other than never then where you live is truly farked up.


You sound like someone who barely has a topical grasp of the subject at hand.
 
2012-10-03 08:51:23 PM

Huck Chaser: MoronLessOff: Pass concealed carry in IL.

Honest question: how would that help? The gang members have proven without a shadow of a doubt that they have no problem attacking, shooting, and killing other armed people (e.g. other gang members), so how would lawful citizens carrying guns change that?


They might shoot back and take a few of them with them?

/I may die defending myself, but I will do everything I can to take you with me.
 
2012-10-03 08:52:18 PM

smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?


Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".
 
2012-10-03 08:53:07 PM

LaughingRadish: MrEricSir: hundreddollarman: Yeah... good luck with that pipe dream. If there's one thing Americans despise most, it's the threat of things being taken away from them. Guns have been an integral component of American culture, dating back to our days as a British colony. Guns in America are here to stay. That genie is never going back in the bottle. So keep dreaming and choosing to be a victim when the shiat hits the fan.

The idea of carrying a gun around for defense is pure fantasy. You are not a character in an action movie, this is real life.

Go ahead, keep blaming the victim -- see how much sympathy that gets you. But when you accidentally shoot someone (or yourself) don't expect any sympathy in return.

You are one seriously confused individual.


I'm not the one who thinks he's Bruce Willis.
 
2012-10-03 08:54:56 PM

kg2095: DaCaptain19: wee: Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

THIS. When I moved to IL (Chicago) it was a culture shock. Having lived in Kansas for 8 years prior, I had multiple firearms and had a conceal-carry card.

Which means nothing in IL, the ONLY state with no way to conceal-carry, you need a FOID card to even get a shotgun shell at Walmart...and yet hghest murder rate in the U.S.

Sh*t...at the very least allow the law-abiding citizens to carry. An armed society is a polite society.

You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

I think there must be something wrong with people who love guns so much. They are nothing more than tools designed to kill. If you need such a tool then what or who are you planning to kill?

As far as carrying them for protection, that is the biggest load of codswallop I have heard in my life. When was the last time any of you gun advocates ever needed to protect yourself with a gun? If the answer is anything other than never then where you live is truly farked up.


Approximately 70% of the murders in the U.S. are committed by members of approximately 6% of the population. Perhaps that group is the difference.
 
2012-10-03 08:56:02 PM

kg2095: DaCaptain19: wee: Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

THIS. When I moved to IL (Chicago) it was a culture shock. Having lived in Kansas for 8 years prior, I had multiple firearms and had a conceal-carry card.

Which means nothing in IL, the ONLY state with no way to conceal-carry, you need a FOID card to even get a shotgun shell at Walmart...and yet hghest murder rate in the U.S.

Sh*t...at the very least allow the law-abiding citizens to carry. An armed society is a polite society.

You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

I think there must be something wrong with people who love guns so much. They are nothing more than tools designed to kill. If you need such a tool then what or who are you planning to kill?

As far as carrying them for protection, that is the biggest load of codswallop I have heard in my life. When was the last time any of you gun advocates ever needed to protect yourself with a gun? If the answer is anything other than never then where you live is truly farked up.


Generally, I use my guns to kill paper. Sometimes small to medium game.

As to "truly farked up", when you have people breaking into homes and raping little old ladies, groups of people beating innocent people at random, and other odd stuff...yeah, maybe so. Personally, i'd say that considering violent crime happens in most every country, regardless of utensil used, itms generally smart to keep around something useful for protection.

Besides, as it is my right, I don't have to justify myself to you. Don't like guns? Don't own them. But please don't tell me gun crime only happens here, when a quick google search shows gun crimes happen in the uk, australia, france, and many other places, along with fairly significant other violent crimes.
 
2012-10-03 08:58:46 PM

jonny99: smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?

Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".


Race and poverty, among other factors, are quite strongly connected.
 
2012-10-03 08:59:36 PM

MrEricSir: LaughingRadish: MrEricSir: hundreddollarman: Yeah... good luck with that pipe dream. If there's one thing Americans despise most, it's the threat of things being taken away from them. Guns have been an integral component of American culture, dating back to our days as a British colony. Guns in America are here to stay. That genie is never going back in the bottle. So keep dreaming and choosing to be a victim when the shiat hits the fan.

The idea of carrying a gun around for defense is pure fantasy. You are not a character in an action movie, this is real life.

Go ahead, keep blaming the victim -- see how much sympathy that gets you. But when you accidentally shoot someone (or yourself) don't expect any sympathy in return.

You are one seriously confused individual.

I'm not the one who thinks he's Bruce Willis.


And you're not the one familiar with the thousands of cases of individuals defending themselves with guns every year. Some fantasy, when it happens frequently enough to be routine.
 
2012-10-03 09:05:47 PM

bim1154: jonny99: I suppose it doesn't matter that this spike in gun violence comes *2 years after* Chicago's handgun ban was struck down by the supreme court?


/Chicagoan
//who doesn't own or want to own a gun

For a "Chicagoan" you don't keep up do you? That's o.k., you can go walk the walk with Father Pfleger and his crowd.


Thanks for your permission to have an opinion - I have no desire to live in an armed society - just as in global politics, the answer can only be found in de-escalation. Gun people love to ask how banning guns is working out for Chicago, but the truth is no one can answer that question because they're not really banned, can be trafficked in from other places that hold the distribution of firearms sacrosanct. I don't have to walk with anyone - I just choose to walk without a deadly weapon on me, and I would prefer that as few people as possible in my immediate vicinity have one.

If you think that is because I am too naive and trusting of people you would be incorrect - I have no faith that anyone who feels the need to carry deadly force with them at all times is well adjusted enough to use it responsibly. So many Fark threads read like Penthouse forum fantasies that replace farking with a barely-contained vigilante rage, just waiting for the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time to visit violence on someone (usually of a different race than themselves) "justifiably". Not my deal.
 
2012-10-03 09:11:55 PM

Silly Jesus: jonny99: smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?

Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".

Race and poverty, among other factors, are quite strongly connected.




Yeah, I wonder why that could possibly be? Don't forget about poverty and criminality, or poverty and violence.
 
2012-10-03 09:12:52 PM

Silly Jesus: kg2095: DaCaptain19: wee: Darn good thing guns are so hard to get in Illinois...

THIS. When I moved to IL (Chicago) it was a culture shock. Having lived in Kansas for 8 years prior, I had multiple firearms and had a conceal-carry card.

Which means nothing in IL, the ONLY state with no way to conceal-carry, you need a FOID card to even get a shotgun shell at Walmart...and yet hghest murder rate in the U.S.

Sh*t...at the very least allow the law-abiding citizens to carry. An armed society is a polite society.

You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

I think there must be something wrong with people who love guns so much. They are nothing more than tools designed to kill. If you need such a tool then what or who are you planning to kill?

As far as carrying them for protection, that is the biggest load of codswallop I have heard in my life. When was the last time any of you gun advocates ever needed to protect yourself with a gun? If the answer is anything other than never then where you live is truly farked up.

Approximately 70% of the murders in the U.S. are committed by members of approximately 6% of the population. Perhaps that group is the difference.


I do find it interesting to look at the numbers.

When you break down things past the obvious, the arguments about gun population being the cause of crime breaks down as well.

The US tends to lack the standard of education, the lack of social programs, and a general lack of cultural acknowledgement of poverty and crime.

By policing, or helping, the population most stricken by poverty, apathy, and involvement by communities at large, you can slowly but significantly reduce the crime rates.

Likewise, more availability of education and mental health services, would further reduce the instances of violence, not just gun violence.

A gun is a tool. We're not the only ones who are gun owners, but, we are the only ones that teach neither responsibility, nor look after our own when it comes to trying to help people out.

A study, by the way, some years back concluded that instances of violence drop dramatically with education and success.

What it boils down to is, you leave people in the gutter, give them no positive role models and instead let a tribal culture that only understands violence as a means of gaining power take hold, and add in a system that does nothing to help but rather only exacerbates the problem, and you get violent behavior. It's systemic.

But, I digress. This is a thread demanding that guns join the ranks of booze and loose women as the cause for all ills of society, not a thread looking tto actually examine the catalysts involved in getting a person to the point where crime seems like a good idea. Then again, if my choices were death in the streets minding my own business or joining a gang to make money to live and have some protection from the other violent assholes out there, I might consider joining the gang.

/grew up in a gang-infested poverty stricken city.
//has seen first hand the fact that violent behavior and petty ego behaviors lead to the use of guns, not the other way around
///also has seen that certain groups tend towards this behavior more than others.
 
2012-10-03 09:13:02 PM

jonny99: Silly Jesus: jonny99: smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?

Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".

Race and poverty, among other factors, are quite strongly connected.



Yeah, I wonder why that could possibly be? Don't forget about poverty and criminality, or poverty and violence.


Culture.
 
2012-10-03 09:20:18 PM

kg2095: You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.


In the U.S. even our **non-firearm related** homicide rate is higher than the TOTAL homicide rate for many other countries. We don't have a "gun problem", we have a "homicidal farktard" problem. You're never going to be able to remove the 100+ million firearms we already have, and further restricting the law-abiding gun owners isn't going to solve the problem either.
 
2012-10-03 09:24:40 PM

jonny99: bim1154: jonny99: I suppose it doesn't matter that this spike in gun violence comes *2 years after* Chicago's handgun ban was struck down by the supreme court?


/Chicagoan
//who doesn't own or want to own a gun

For a "Chicagoan" you don't keep up do you? That's o.k., you can go walk the walk with Father Pfleger and his crowd.

Thanks for your permission to have an opinion - I have no desire to live in an armed society - just as in global politics, the answer can only be found in de-escalation. Gun people love to ask how banning guns is working out for Chicago, but the truth is no one can answer that question because they're not really banned, can be trafficked in from other places that hold the distribution of firearms sacrosanct. I don't have to walk with anyone - I just choose to walk without a deadly weapon on me, and I would prefer that as few people as possible in my immediate vicinity have one.

If you think that is because I am too naive and trusting of people you would be incorrect - I have no faith that anyone who feels the need to carry deadly force with them at all times is well adjusted enough to use it responsibly. So many Fark threads read like Penthouse forum fantasies that replace farking with a barely-contained vigilante rage, just waiting for the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time to visit violence on someone (usually of a different race than themselves) "justifiably". Not my deal.


sadly, I think you're both right and wrong.

Right in that for the first year or so, most guys who get a ccw permit do so because it's cool. However, you're also wrong, as it sinks in with most people just what that responsibility means after a while.

As someone who does carry, and has faced having to use it against an armed attacker after every option of avoidance and deescalation failed, let me tell you that once you realize the gravity of reality, it's neither glamorous nor cool, it's a grim reality.

A gun isn't a sure bet in a fight. It's not a magic wand that makes bad guys disappear, or give you +5 to cock length. A gun is a tool that gives me at best a slight advantage, and at worst, a false hope, should I have to use it.

I was jumped by three guys, beaten and stabbed repeatedly. I was armed, and I was unable to get the gun out to defend myself from the attack. I was weak and bloody, unable to fight off the guys attacking me because I couldn't outfight three guys with knives by myself, and instead took the stabwounds and the insults and prepared to die.

The only thing that stopped them was that after collapsing and curling in a ball, I managed to get my gun out and let off a round into the dirt. I could only see well enough toaim it that well. The guys attacking me were startled by the gunshot, and when they heard people yelling, they ran off.

That's also the only way I had a prayer of someone finding me and calling 911, my phone got smashed in the attack.

I'm still here because of that.

It's not glamorous to take a life. It's scary as hell and weighs on you psychologically. You WILL be sick, you WILL question yourself, and you WILL go through hell if that happens with all of the paperwork, media, and legal shiat.

However, all of the aftermath is nothing compared to the very real fact that I lived because I had a gun and managed to scare off the guys who probably would've killed me for laughs. Certain death, or possible life and lots of consequences, I'll choose to live and deal with the lifelong psychological and personal rammifications.
 
2012-10-03 09:25:15 PM

ScottRiqui: kg2095: You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

In the U.S. even our **non-firearm related** homicide rate is higher than the TOTAL homicide rate for many other countries. We don't have a "gun problem", we have a "homicidal farktard" problem. You're never going to be able to remove the 100+ million firearms we already have, and further restricting the law-abiding gun owners isn't going to solve the problem either.


Amen.
 
2012-10-03 09:29:07 PM

Huck Chaser: Fark It: That's your choice, you don't get to make that for other people.

You're right, but I do get to vote for people who do get to make that choice.


Then enjoy strengthening the Republican party by making their one true wedge issue relevant. People keep voting for them because they don't trust people like you. Want the Republicans to go away? Then STFU about guns.
 
2012-10-03 09:37:23 PM

ScottRiqui: kg2095: You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

In the U.S. even our **non-firearm related** homicide rate is higher than the TOTAL homicide rate for many other countries. We don't have a "gun problem", we have a "homicidal farktard" problem. You're never going to be able to remove the 100+ million firearms we already have, and further restricting the law-abiding gun owners isn't going to solve the problem either.


ATF estimated it at 270 million in the 90s and NICS checks have been going through the roof since late 2008, so it wouldn't surprise me if the number were north of 300 million at this point. A 1 to 1 gun to human ration in the US would not surprise me at all.
 
2012-10-03 09:41:39 PM

umad: Huck Chaser: Fark It: That's your choice, you don't get to make that for other people.

You're right, but I do get to vote for people who do get to make that choice.

Then enjoy strengthening the Republican party by making their one true wedge issue relevant. People keep voting for them because they don't trust people like you. Want the Republicans to go away? Then STFU about guns.


We all agree that violent crime of all flavors is bad, we recognize it's bad, and we have a variety of means of fixing the problem.

How come we can't get together, stop blaming guns, booze, pussy, porn, etc. for human behavior and instead learn to combat the causes of the behavior, and make our society better?

You don't like guns? Fine. Don't use 'em. Don't buy 'em. I don't like booze, but I equally don't vote for laws to ban it. I just don't drink.

If we as a society spent even half the time and money on education and prevention instead of chasing after the devil drugs, the grotesque guns, and the other objects of animosity, we'dd probably have a society were I didn't need to protect myself and wouldn't have to worry about psychos and drunk drivers.

But, I guess it's more sexy to say you banned something.

Also, what gives people the right to dictate to others what is and isn't right/good/justified? Do I get to pick something you like and belittle you for it while publically calling for it to be banned?

How about we ban video games since they only encourage antisocial behavior, promote sloth and obesity, and have no other purpose than to dull our minds and further erode the morals of our society with violent fantasy material and smut?

See what im driving at?
 
2012-10-03 09:42:32 PM

redmid17: ScottRiqui: kg2095: You have the highest rate of firearm related deaths and injuries in the developed world. And not just by a little bit but by a truly shocking amount. Just look up some statistics for rates of gun related deaths in the US compared to Canada just over the border.

In the U.S. even our **non-firearm related** homicide rate is higher than the TOTAL homicide rate for many other countries. We don't have a "gun problem", we have a "homicidal farktard" problem. You're never going to be able to remove the 100+ million firearms we already have, and further restricting the law-abiding gun owners isn't going to solve the problem either.

ATF estimated it at 270 million in the 90s and NICS checks have been going through the roof since late 2008, so it wouldn't surprise me if the number were north of 300 million at this point. A 1 to 1 gun to human ration in the US would not surprise me at all.


You're absolutely correct - I was working off of my memory from a different discussion and used the wrong number. 100+ million was the estimate I found for the number of handguns, not total firearms.
 
2012-10-03 09:52:52 PM
Wait do people actually *not* carry in Chicago? I'm an otherwise law abiding citizen but any time I got to Chicago I sure as hell make sure I'm packing something sturdy. It's concealed, and if I need it then I really won't be too concerned about a jury trial at that point.
 
2012-10-03 09:56:28 PM
Kit Fister:

I pretty much agree. That's why it makes me angry that so many people keep giving the social conservatives their power. If the Dems would just bite the bullet (pardon the pun) on gun control, then all of the other puritanical horseshiat goes away. It could be an orgy of abortions, gay marriages, prostitution, gambling, legal drugs, and freedom for everybody, but these farksticks have to keep wetting themselves at the thought of somebody owning a gun. Take away the one issue that the social cons are actually on the right side of, and they will be forced to change. I'm sick of this partisan shiat.
 
2012-10-03 10:01:23 PM

Kit Fister: umad: Huck Chaser: Fark It: That's your choice, you don't get to make that for other people.

You're right, but I do get to vote for people who do get to make that choice.

Then enjoy strengthening the Republican party by making their one true wedge issue relevant. People keep voting for them because they don't trust people like you. Want the Republicans to go away? Then STFU about guns.

We all agree that violent crime of all flavors is bad, we recognize it's bad, and we have a variety of means of fixing the problem.

How come we can't get together, stop blaming guns, booze, pussy, porn, etc. for human behavior and instead learn to combat the causes of the behavior, and make our society better?

You don't like guns? Fine. Don't use 'em. Don't buy 'em. I don't like booze, but I equally don't vote for laws to ban it. I just don't drink.

If we as a society spent even half the time and money on education and prevention instead of chasing after the devil drugs, the grotesque guns, and the other objects of animosity, we'dd probably have a society were I didn't need to protect myself and wouldn't have to worry about psychos and drunk drivers.

But, I guess it's more sexy to say you banned something.

Also, what gives people the right to dictate to others what is and isn't right/good/justified? Do I get to pick something you like and belittle you for it while publically calling for it to be banned?

How about we ban video games since they only encourage antisocial behavior, promote sloth and obesity, and have no other purpose than to dull our minds and further erode the morals of our society with violent fantasy material and smut?

See what im driving at?


How can one post on Fark and not like booze? Do you think Duke doesn't suck? WHERE DOES IT END?!
 
2012-10-03 10:03:37 PM

MrEricSir: hundreddollarman: Yeah... good luck with that pipe dream. If there's one thing Americans despise most, it's the threat of things being taken away from them. Guns have been an integral component of American culture, dating back to our days as a British colony. Guns in America are here to stay. That genie is never going back in the bottle. So keep dreaming and choosing to be a victim when the shiat hits the fan.

The idea of carrying a gun around for defense is pure fantasy. You are not a character in an action movie, this is real life.

Go ahead, keep blaming the victim -- see how much sympathy that gets you. But when you accidentally shoot someone (or yourself) don't expect any sympathy in return.


It's so incredulously wrong-headed for you to assume that everyone who owns a gun, or aspires to own one, has some latent Rambo/John McClane/Dirty Harry fantasy or is planning some kind of crime. Another grossly incorrect stereotype perpetuated by anti-gun people. You are either woefully naive or willfully stupid.

Like someone posted earlier, a gun is not a magic wand that will make the bad guys go away. It's simply another way I can claim an advantage if I ever need to defend myself. It's like learning karate -- nice to know, but you pray you never have to actually use it.

And if you think I'm going to shoot myself by accident, I am really inclined to believe you are willfully stupid. The majority of lawful gun owners are incredibly safety conscious, almost to the point of OCD. The people who do end up shooting themselves are dumbasses who have no business owning any kind of weapon in the first place. Their ignoble misdeeds are just another component of the firearm discussion exaggerated by media reports.

There are 100 million firearms legally owned in the United States. Good luck trying to get them all out of circulation.
 
2012-10-03 11:18:33 PM

Silly Jesus: jonny99: Silly Jesus: jonny99: smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?

Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".

Race and poverty, among other factors, are quite strongly connected.



Yeah, I wonder why that could possibly be? Don't forget about poverty and criminality, or poverty and violence.

Culture.


Ahhhh - of course! I forgot that races that are culturally superior don't succumb to violence and other problems under severe conditions of poverty. Yr whistle brings all the dogs to the yard.
 
2012-10-03 11:27:30 PM

jonny99: Silly Jesus: jonny99: Silly Jesus: jonny99: smitty04: Secret Master of All Flatulence: DaCaptain19: You don't live in Chicago, do you? Nope, if you did you'd be thinking the same thing all us Chicagoans think but don't say.

Nope, I don't live in Chicago. That being said: I've dealt with a LOT of scumbags over the years. Not just gangmembers, but baby rapers, wife beaters, and just about every other kind of criminal out there. The color of the skin of the perpetrator is meaningless...it's what they, as an individual, have done. And I can say, with some certainty, that douchebaggery is not the province of any one skin color, socioeconomic status, religious belief, or geographic locale.

[www.chicagonow.com image 583x302]
Then why is homicide rate so low in Edison Park?

Since you think this chart tells the whole story - you might want to consider the poverty level in Edison Park - that's the killer, not "race".

Race and poverty, among other factors, are quite strongly connected.



Yeah, I wonder why that could possibly be? Don't forget about poverty and criminality, or poverty and violence.

Culture.

Ahhhh - of course! I forgot that races that are culturally superior don't succumb to violence and other problems under severe conditions of poverty. Yr whistle brings all the dogs to the yard.


So what's is like being racist and assuming that he meant culture influenced by race?
 
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