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(CBS Detroit)   If Derek Jeter won the Triple Crown this year with Miguel Cabrera's stat line, Mike Trout wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion   (detroit.cbslocal.com) divider line 321
    More: Obvious, triple crown, Miguel Cabrera, Derek Jeter, MVP, al mvp, Jayson Stark, Ken Rosenthal, Detroit Tigers  
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1063 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 Oct 2012 at 2:03 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 10:53:10 AM
{{Summoning DeWayne Mann}}
{{Summoning DeWayne Mann}}

we have a Trout-Cabrera-Jeter troll thread for you.

{{DeWayne Mann's head asplodes}}
 
2012-10-03 10:57:17 AM
If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.
 
2012-10-03 11:07:05 AM
Miguel Cabrera is going to win the Triple Crown and yet Mike Trout is still in the running for MVP. There's something fishy about that.
 
2012-10-03 11:12:57 AM
And he's doing it without PEDs either. You would think baseball would be all over this, to try and wash the bad taste of the late 90's/early 00's out of everyone's mouth.
 
2012-10-03 11:13:32 AM
It's almost like when there is no clear cut winner for the MVP, other non-stat factors come into play. Factors such as service time, playing history, whether or not the team made the playoffs, writer bias due to location to other MVP candidates, size of the media markets the players play in, and historic ramifications of the stats in question.

The problem with sabermetrics people is that all those factors can't be quantified into a number they can put into a formula.
 
2012-10-03 11:18:48 AM
Since the expansion of the playoffs in 1995, only one AL MVP has been on a team that did not make the postseason. That was A-Rod with Texas in 2003.

NL MVP is a little less correlated with postseason appearances, thanks mostly to Barry Bonds.
 
2012-10-03 11:19:56 AM
Anyone think Cabrera uses PED's? His consistency year-to-year argues against that, as guys who use PEDs usually have a meteoric rise, cliff dropoff and in between seasons plagued with injury.
 
2012-10-03 11:55:54 AM

WTF Indeed: It's almost like when there is no clear cut winner for the MVP, other non-stat factors come into play. Factors such as service time, playing history, whether or not the team made the playoffs, writer bias due to location to other MVP candidates, size of the media markets the players play in, and historic ramifications of the stats in question.

The problem with sabermetrics people is that all those factors can't be quantified into a number they can put into a formula.


Forget the writer bias, I'm going to talk why Trout *should* win as opposed to whether he *will*. And here's the thing...even taking out WAR and the sabermetric stuff you can still make a pretty clear-cut case for Trout. And I'll do it while only mentioning Trout missing a month once.

First, let's take out the washes: Both have about the same BA and OBP. Cabrera leads the league in double plays grounded into, which more or less negates the fact that Trout strikes out more. Cabrera's much higher in RBI's and Trout's much higher in runs so I'd say that about cancels each other out. And both of those can be attributed to where they bat in the lineup more than anything else.

Now to where there are differences: Cabrera has a more home runs, but Trout still has 30 despite missing a month. I don't think giving Trout mid-high 30's assuming a full season is a stretch, which isn't *that* far behind. Cabrera's SLG is about 40 points higher, which is decent but not overwhelming. Then you look at steals and speed, where Trout is just ridiculously better. Now defense, which does count if Jimmy Rollins won in '07 and Ichiro won in '01: Throwing out all the stats you can come up with, I don't think that many people are going to argue with the notion that Cabrera is a below-average 3B while Trout is a far-above-average CF. Cabrera also did better down the stretch, but I don't buy into the notion that games in June count for any less than games in September. Mainly because they don't.

So basically, Trout's individual advantages are bigger than Cabrera's. Which brings us to the playoff argument. And I'll repeat myself from yesterday: Despite facing better competition in the AL West than the Tigers did in the AL Central, the Angels finished with more wins than the Tigers. It's not the Trout's fault that his team happened to be included in the wrong grouping of teams, and Cabrera similarly should not be entitled to a bonus because of it.

So there you go. I'm not going to be upset if/when Cabrera wins because he had a great year, but there's more than one reason why Trout should win.
 
2012-10-03 12:17:09 PM

FreakinB: So there you go. I'm not going to be upset if/when Cabrera wins because he had a great year, but there's more than one reason why Trout should win.



All good points, but in the end I totally agree with your last sentence.  How about hoping for co-MVP's.  Its happened before, I do believe.
 
2012-10-03 12:25:34 PM

JerseyTim: Miguel Cabrera is going to win the Triple Crown and yet Mike Trout is still in the running for MVP. There's something fishy about that.


I see what you did there.
 
2012-10-03 12:37:50 PM

downstairs: How about hoping for co-MVP's. Its happened before, I do believe.


1979. But it's not like the voters can just decide to give it to both; the number of first place votes has to come out equal for there to be a tie. Cabrera will likely win by quite a bit.
 
2012-10-03 12:56:49 PM
I often see this Fangraphs article being linked to by folks in the Trout camp. It's an otherwise interesting, well-argued piece, except for this:

Morosi makes the argument that Cabrera deserves credit for his defense because he was willing to make the move to third base to accommodate the acquisition of Prince Fielder. His hard work and selflessness in changing positions should be seen as a net positive in terms of defensive contribution, even if he is objectively bad at playing the position. However, there's a pretty serious problem with this scenario - Cabrera didn't have to move to third base for the Tigers to sign Prince Fielder. Instead, he could have simply agreed to become a designated hitter. Instead, Cabrera decided he didn't want to retire his glove and become a hitter-only, so the Tigers were instead forced to move him to third base, since neither Cabrera nor Fielder was willing to take the DH role at this point in their career.

I don't know if this is an example of someone who just doesn't follow the Tigers closely or just a bare assertion, but this statement is patently false.

The Tigers weren't "forced" to move Cabrera to 3rd base nor did Cabrera "refuse" to become a DH. The reason Cabrera was moved to 3rd base was because, for better or worse, that's where he's going to be playing as long as Victor Martinez is under contract. Following major reconstructive knee surgery at his age, there is no way Martinez is ever going to catch again. He'll DH and get some spot starts at 1st the rest of his career. Therefore, Cabrera and Fielder are going to be position players through 2014. This has nothing to do with some petulant refusal to DH by either Cabrera or Fielder. That option was never on the board in the first place.

In reality, Cabrera's switch to third base made room not for Fielder, but for Delmon Young to spend a majority of his time at DH, which freed up an outfield spot for the likes of Ryan Raburn, Don Kelly, Quinton Berry, and Andy Dirks. Had Cabrera been willing to actually take one for the team and DH, those are the guys who would have lost playing time, not Prince Fielder. Does anyone seriously want to argue that the Tigers are better off because Cabrera decided to become a bad defensive third baseman so that that group could get more playing time?  

Again, this is either deliberately misleading or just the result of someone who didn't follow the team closely this year. As stated above, the idea that Cabrera should've "taken one for the team and become DH" is ridiculous, because that was never an option in the first place.

Also, as much as I hate Delmon Young with the burning fire of 1,000 suns, the idea that it was a bad thing to move him into the DH spot is insane. He's one of the worst fielding outfielders in baseball. The option then, according to this guy's argument, was to put Cabrera at DH, Young in LF, and Brandon F*cking Inge at 3rd? How does that help the team? I guarantee you they don't make the playoffs this year with that sh*tstorm of a left side. Quintin Berry ended up getting a good portion of starts in LF, and he's an excellent defender who made probably a half dozen game-saving plays this year. 

The part about Prince Fielder "losing playing time" as a result of Cabrera not moving to DH is particularly vexing, unless I'm reading it wrong. Prince Fielder has played in all 161 games this year. How is that "losing playing time?"
 
2012-10-03 12:59:28 PM
Oh here we go again!
 
2012-10-03 01:37:25 PM

sigdiamond2000: The part about Prince Fielder "losing playing time" as a result of Cabrera not moving to DH is particularly vexing, unless I'm reading it wrong. Prince Fielder has played in all 161 games this year. How is that "losing playing time?"


I think what they're saying is that Fielder would have played whether or not Cabrera changed to 3B, so Cabrera's position switch actually opened up a spot in the lineup for one of the other guys rather than Fielder. I'm not sure if anybody's actually arguing otherwise, but they're not wrong.
 
2012-10-03 01:50:29 PM

FreakinB: sigdiamond2000: The part about Prince Fielder "losing playing time" as a result of Cabrera not moving to DH is particularly vexing, unless I'm reading it wrong. Prince Fielder has played in all 161 games this year. How is that "losing playing time?"

I think what they're saying is that Fielder would have played whether or not Cabrera changed to 3B, so Cabrera's position switch actually opened up a spot in the lineup for one of the other guys rather than Fielder. I'm not sure if anybody's actually arguing otherwise, but they're not wrong.


They are wrong, because the Tigers are on record (I believe) as saying they would not have bothered signing Fielder had Cabrera not agreed to move to 3rd.
 
2012-10-03 01:59:05 PM

wxboy: FreakinB: sigdiamond2000: The part about Prince Fielder "losing playing time" as a result of Cabrera not moving to DH is particularly vexing, unless I'm reading it wrong. Prince Fielder has played in all 161 games this year. How is that "losing playing time?"

I think what they're saying is that Fielder would have played whether or not Cabrera changed to 3B, so Cabrera's position switch actually opened up a spot in the lineup for one of the other guys rather than Fielder. I'm not sure if anybody's actually arguing otherwise, but they're not wrong.

They are wrong, because the Tigers are on record (I believe) as saying they would not have bothered signing Fielder had Cabrera not agreed to move to 3rd.


Just found this via the Googlez so you're right. My bad. That said, I don't think that should factor into an MVP vote since it has more to do with roster construction than how he actually performed on the field. YMMV.
 
2012-10-03 02:05:16 PM

SlothB77: {{Summoning DeWayne Mann}}
{{Summoning DeWayne Mann}}

we have a Trout-Cabrera-Jeter troll thread for you.

{{DeWayne Mann's head asplodes}}


Nope.

NOPE
 
2012-10-03 02:05:42 PM

IAmRight: If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.


Yeah. I was gonna come in here and ask who that says more about: Cabrera, Trout, or Jeter?

That said, Cabrera should win the MVP. Talk all you want about WAR. It's the goddamn Triple Crown. This shiat doesn't happen every goddamn year.
 
2012-10-03 02:06:03 PM
we gonna have this thread every day?
 
2012-10-03 02:06:59 PM

SlothB77: Anyone think Cabrera uses PED's? His consistency year-to-year argues against that, as guys who use PEDs usually have a meteoric rise, cliff dropoff and in between seasons plagued with injury.


I would bet he has used PEDs in the past. He just looks so much different than he did when he first came up. Is he using them currently? Probably not.
 
2012-10-03 02:07:55 PM
If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.
 
2012-10-03 02:08:38 PM

FishyFred: IAmRight: If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.

Yeah. I was gonna come in here and ask who that says more about: Cabrera, Trout, or Jeter?

That said, Cabrera should win the MVP. Talk all you want about WAR. It's the goddamn Triple Crown. This shiat doesn't happen every goddamn year.


True, but not every Triple Crown winner has won the MVP.
 
2012-10-03 02:08:56 PM

NutznGum: If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.


If I wasn't boycotting this thread I'd make a joke about MY grandmother here and the people in the LAST AL MVP THREAD THAT'S TECHNICALLY STILL GOING ON WOULD ALL LAUGH
 
2012-10-03 02:09:37 PM

FreakinB: FishyFred: IAmRight: If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.

Yeah. I was gonna come in here and ask who that says more about: Cabrera, Trout, or Jeter?

That said, Cabrera should win the MVP. Talk all you want about WAR. It's the goddamn Triple Crown. This shiat doesn't happen every goddamn year.

True, but not every Triple Crown winner has won the MVP.


Actually, the example that comes to mind is Ted Williams not winning the MVP in 1941 despite hitting .406.
 
2012-10-03 02:10:27 PM
He had me going until: FTFA: Is it because Mike Trout is the All-American white boy phenom?

Cabrera won't win because racism. Come on.
 
2012-10-03 02:10:37 PM

FishyFred: FreakinB: FishyFred: IAmRight: If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.

Yeah. I was gonna come in here and ask who that says more about: Cabrera, Trout, or Jeter?

That said, Cabrera should win the MVP. Talk all you want about WAR. It's the goddamn Triple Crown. This shiat doesn't happen every goddamn year.

True, but not every Triple Crown winner has won the MVP.

Actually, the example that comes to mind is Ted Williams not winning the MVP in 1941 despite hitting .406.


If I wasn't boycotting the thread, I'd explicitly point out the 1934 AL MVP voting.
 
2012-10-03 02:11:02 PM

DeWayne Mann: NutznGum: If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.

If I wasn't boycotting this thread I'd make a joke about MY grandmother here and the people in the LAST AL MVP THREAD THAT'S TECHNICALLY STILL GOING ON WOULD ALL LAUGH


I'm there with you, sir. Your grandma was a visionary.
 
2012-10-03 02:11:36 PM
If Derek Jeter won the triple crown year with Miguel Cabrera's stat line he would probably test positive for every steroid known to man.
 
2012-10-03 02:13:13 PM

FreakinB: but I don't buy into the notion that games in June count for any less than games in September. Mainly because they don't.


You're misunderstanding. The games don't matter more but the performance does.

In high stress situations (late in games, late in the season, 2 outs with RISP), Cabrera plays better. In high stress situations, Trout plays worse.
 
2012-10-03 02:14:26 PM

whistleridge: And he's doing it without PEDs either. You would think baseball would be all over this, to try and wash the bad taste of the late 90's/early 00's out of everyone's mouth.


Wait I thought M. Cabrera was banned for using PEDs.
 
2012-10-03 02:14:33 PM

FreakinB: DeWayne Mann: NutznGum: If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.

If I wasn't boycotting this thread I'd make a joke about MY grandmother here and the people in the LAST AL MVP THREAD THAT'S TECHNICALLY STILL GOING ON WOULD ALL LAUGH

I'm there with you, sir. Your grandma was a visionary.


That's why anyone who accuses me of racism for supporting Trout is clearly wrong. My grandmother helped break the color line in baseball!
 
2012-10-03 02:14:47 PM
Because I know most of this got said in the last thread, I'll just summarize my position.

Given the intangibles involved of being the catalyst for that Angels lineup to get their collective heads out of their asses after April and come back to be this team, I'd give it to Trout, but ONLY if the Triple Crown doesn't happen. You can say they haven't been as good as they have been and all that, but it's still Detroit.
 
2012-10-03 02:14:54 PM
Also, as far as sabermetrics vs. traditional stats concerned, here's some food for thought. Mind you, I heard this on a podcast and haven't bothered to look it up, but I'd trust that it's true:

If Cabrera wins the Triple Crown, it would be the first time in history that a Triple Crown winner didn't lead his league in WAR.

See, people?! They're not completely at odds! We can all be friends!

/Kum-ba-yaaaaaa
 
2012-10-03 02:15:41 PM

AliceBToklasLives: whistleridge: And he's doing it without PEDs either. You would think baseball would be all over this, to try and wash the bad taste of the late 90's/early 00's out of everyone's mouth.

Wait I thought M. Cabrera was banned for using PEDs.


In case you're serious, wrong M. Cabrera.
 
2012-10-03 02:16:21 PM
i.qkme.me
 
2012-10-03 02:17:06 PM

meanmutton: FreakinB: but I don't buy into the notion that games in June count for any less than games in September. Mainly because they don't.

You're misunderstanding. The games don't matter more but the performance does.

In high stress situations (late in games, late in the season, 2 outs with RISP), Cabrera plays better. In high stress situations, Trout plays worse.


Great. I hate to sound like a dick, but here it goes: I honestly don't care. Stress or no stress, it's all production.
 
2012-10-03 02:17:22 PM

FreakinB: If Cabrera wins the Triple Crown, it would be the first time in history that a Triple Crown winner didn't lead his league in WAR.

See, people?! They're not completely at odds! We can all be friends!

/Kum-ba-yaaaaaa


I believe that is true, but that there were two ties by fWAR and one by rWAR...or maybe the other way around. I don't know I'm still boycotting.

The short version of why that's true is because HR were so much rarer that if you led the league in THEM, you were probably pretty close to the top anyway. Add in leading in average (meaning you probably led in OBP as well, as walks were frowned upon), and, well...
 
2012-10-03 02:25:10 PM

WTF Indeed: It's almost like when there is no clear cut winner for the MVP, other non-stat factors come into play. Factors such as service time, playing history, whether or not the team made the playoffs, writer bias due to location to other MVP candidates, size of the media markets the players play in, and historic ramifications of the stats in question.

The problem with sabermetrics people is that all those factors can't be quantified into a number they can put into a formula.


Yeah, once you step away from the safety of your computer screen, the real world doesn't always fit into a nice little equation.
 
2012-10-03 02:27:11 PM
Really, so what who wins the MVP? There are two winners of that every year. Triple crown winners come along every 45 years or so. It's clearly the more difficult achievement.
 
2012-10-03 02:30:36 PM
Of course Jeter would, he's one of the best (if not THE best) defensive shortstops in the history of the sport. You add that to a Triple Crown and it is a no-brainer.
 
2012-10-03 02:31:03 PM
FUN FACT:

Early on, it was widely believed that the best hitter in the league was whoever led in Runs per Game. Though having a low Hands Out per Game was considered nearly as important.

It's just, later on, some people sat down and looked and said "Hey, I think maybe we can do this better."

So if you really want to be a traditionalist, well, you know what to do.
 
2012-10-03 02:31:41 PM

Moopy Mac: he's one of the best (if not THE best) defensive shortstops in the history of the sport.


....

....

.....

....


wat
 
2012-10-03 02:32:28 PM

ChrisDe: Really, so what who wins the MVP? There are two winners of that every year. Triple crown winners come along every 45 years or so. It's clearly the more difficult achievement.


As a Tigers fan, this is pretty much my opinion. Give the MVP to Trout. The Triple Crown is a once in a generation (or two) thing.
 
2012-10-03 02:33:52 PM

IAmRight: If Derek Jeter had Mike Trout's stat line, Miguel Cabrera wouldn't even be in the MVP discussion, either. What's your point? Oh, you don't have one.



Thread should have been over here.
 
2012-10-03 02:33:58 PM

DeWayne Mann: NutznGum: If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.

If I wasn't boycotting this thread I'd make a joke about MY grandmother here and the people in the LAST AL MVP THREAD THAT'S TECHNICALLY STILL GOING ON WOULD ALL LAUGH


Was about to mention this, was laughing, you know you will not stay out of this thread.
 
2012-10-03 02:34:20 PM

Moopy Mac: Of course Jeter would, he's one of the best (if not THE best) defensive shortstops in the history of the sport..


7/10

Docking you points becuase it's much easier to troll a Sports thread than it is a Politics thread.

This is a good example of why we need advanced troll statistics.
 
2012-10-03 02:34:51 PM
If Detroit didn't have a giant inferiority complex, they wouldn't have dragged New York into the discussion.
 
2012-10-03 02:35:17 PM
For the love of FSM, can someone please post the definition of "boycott".

Or maybe come up with an equation that the dwellers can understand.

The only reason there is so much discussion on this topic is because it is so clear cut in Miggy's favour that the media needs to create a story. One day left in the season and barely anything has been decided. That's the real story.
 
2012-10-03 02:36:01 PM

DeWayne Mann: If I wasn't boycotting the thread, I'd explicitly point out the 1934 AL MVP voting.


for someone boycotting this thread, you are doing quite a bad job of it.
 
2012-10-03 02:36:04 PM

roc6783: DeWayne Mann: NutznGum: If my grandma had balls we'd have called her grandpa.

If I wasn't boycotting this thread I'd make a joke about MY grandmother here and the people in the LAST AL MVP THREAD THAT'S TECHNICALLY STILL GOING ON WOULD ALL LAUGH

Was about to mention this, was laughing, you know you will not stay out of this thread.


Oh, I'm not going to stay out. But I'm not going to go and form well crafted arguments based on facts & research and things like that.

I'm mostly just gonna make a lot of stupid jokes. If anyone wants my ACTUAL input on this topic, well, there's about 300 posts about that that are easily found.
 
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