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(Washington Post)   Greek government submits latest contribution to Greek mythology: its 2013 draft budget   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 141
    More: Followup, Greek mythology, Greek government, Greece, wealthiest people  
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1993 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2012 at 9:18 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 11:00:14 AM  

Marine1: FarkedOver: Marine1: FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: So how much of other peoples money do you want to take so you can keep paying nothing?

All of it. No man should have so much.

Eventually you will run out of other peoples money then what? You may have to actually work when there is no one left for you to steal from.

Eventually we won't need money. Try envisioning a world in the distant future where capitalism doesn't exist. No more constant boom and bust cycles, no more exploitation, no more partisanship. Sounds quite nice, no?

So, where do you get this idea?

HAI GUISE!!
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 448x314]

Were you being sarcastic in the original post or were you actually proposing we resort to a proven failure of a political-economic system?


Umm, they have all been provn failures.
What ya got new?
 
2012-10-03 11:01:07 AM  

ronaprhys: Then you've failed all of your history classes. Human nature is about getting everything you possibly can for your specific group. That can be a family, a small village, town, country, group, whatever. It is conflict based - winners and losers. Just like nature.


So you believe in conflict theory. Glad you read up on your Marx :)
 
2012-10-03 11:02:26 AM  

snocone: This is the human version of survival.
It is smarter to work together, but that conflicts w/ struggling to survive.
Peeps seem to work it out when they all are on the same agenda. As soon as life gets easy, peeps start on each other.


To be on the same agenda, you need to be on the same team. When in a survival situation they'll all work together until, as you noted, they're out of the survival situation and can afford to be rid of whoever is the least liked. Even then, in a survival situation, they'll abandon dead weight in a heartbeat.

It's all about competition for resources. That can be food, shelter, baubles, comfort items, and whatever else it takes to increase your mating opportunities and survival chances. Biological imperative and all that nonsense.
 
2012-10-03 11:02:58 AM  

FarkedOver: Marine1: Were you being sarcastic in the original post or were you actually proposing we resort to a proven failure of a political-economic system?

I am a socialist and propose socialist measures be implemented to better humanity. Then again I don't expect you to understand anything because you are the same person who believes terrorists hate us because of our "freedoms". Most if not all of the ills in this world are because of capitalism.


Wrong word.
Capitalism is a myth.
A rationale that permits an elete few to rape the many from behind a curtain of moral posturing.
 
2012-10-03 11:05:50 AM  

ronaprhys: snocone: This is the human version of survival.
It is smarter to work together, but that conflicts w/ struggling to survive.
Peeps seem to work it out when they all are on the same agenda. As soon as life gets easy, peeps start on each other.

To be on the same agenda, you need to be on the same team. When in a survival situation they'll all work together until, as you noted, they're out of the survival situation and can afford to be rid of whoever is the least liked. Even then, in a survival situation, they'll abandon dead weight in a heartbeat.

It's all about competition for resources. That can be food, shelter, baubles, comfort items, and whatever else it takes to increase your mating opportunities and survival chances. Biological imperative and all that nonsense.


And humans are so skilled at spotting the smallest distinction for a good game of Us vs They.
Hell, humans even make up distinctions and take them seriously to heart.
Just can't let them sit around finding trouble.
 
2012-10-03 11:06:11 AM  
The thing about capitalism is that it constantly has to re-invent itself or it gets unsustainable. Capitalism has taken many forms over the years: Feudalism, Slavery, Mercantilism, etc. What we have now is no different and it will change. How? I don't know, but I work toward socialism.
 
2012-10-03 11:06:59 AM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Poor Greeks are getting bent over and screwed hard

Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

FarkedOver: Mommy, what are the rich doing to the working class of Greece!?

Yeah, because Greece was a model of sound fiscal policy and transparent government before those greedy bankers kicked their bond rates up a couple of percent. Austerity may not be the best way to get out of their mess, but it sure as hell didn't cause it. Greece has not only squandered every opportunity to show that it can be serious about getting its house in order, it used the proceeds to dig itself in even deeper. Greece is the Lindsay Lohan of Europe.


Please don't make me explain the 'Greek' pun in my posting.
 
2012-10-03 11:07:08 AM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Then you've failed all of your history classes. Human nature is about getting everything you possibly can for your specific group. That can be a family, a small village, town, country, group, whatever. It is conflict based - winners and losers. Just like nature.

So you believe in conflict theory. Glad you read up on your Marx :)


Even if Marx and I share certain theories and agree on many things (like gravity, science, math, and so forth), that doesn't mean I support Marxism, socialism, or communism. Simply put, they will not ever work with humans. Our nature disallows that.

Capitalism is the least-worst system out there. It should be coupled with a government that prevents the worst excesses but also provides the lightest reins.
 
2012-10-03 11:08:53 AM  

FarkedOver: Marine1: Were you being sarcastic in the original post or were you actually proposing we resort to a proven failure of a political-economic system?

I am a socialist and propose socialist measures be implemented to better humanity. Then again I don't expect you to understand anything because you are the same person who believes terrorists hate us because of our "freedoms". Most if not all of the ills in this world are because of capitalism.


This is what happens when you huff paint.
 
2012-10-03 11:10:27 AM  

FarkedOver: Marine1: Were you being sarcastic in the original post or were you actually proposing we resort to a proven failure of a political-economic system?

I am a socialist and propose socialist measures be implemented to better humanity. Then again I don't expect you to understand anything because you are the same person who believes terrorists hate us because of our "freedoms". Most if not all of the ills in this world are because of capitalism.


If you mean "hold humanity back" by "better humanity", then sure.

Hard-core capitalism isn't a solution, but socialism, at least the kind you propose, isn't a solution either. It's horrifically inefficient and only becomes moreso as a population grows. If you have the state (controlled by the whole populace) controlling all means of production, then everyone gets a say in how that works. That's wonderful, until you start setting up bureaucracy to make decisions as to how things will be done. Pretty soon, you're mired down in a society with almost no real advancement and no real "wealth" to spread around. Things become stagnant and instead of spreading joy, you spread misery. You also have to make the human being into a cog in the larger system, since they are the most valuable means of production. If someone has a change in heart with what he or she wants to do with life (as human beings often do), well, you have to correct them in order to keep the maximum efficiency of your economy up. It doesn't allow for humans to be free, and instead of economic pressure keeping you in one place (a force that can be escaped with a quick head and skillful hands), you have a wall and Kalashnikovs keeping you at your place on the assembly line.

Heavy socialism just doesn't work. If you want to see the effects, compare western Germany to eastern Germany. The people in the western half of the country that were around in 89-90 will never live to see the money they poured into modernizing east Germany pay off. When North Korea collapses, it will be as if you brought a bunch of people from the 1940s into the 21st century with a time machine. Moderation is key in economics, and that's something no one is willing to admit.
 
2012-10-03 11:10:56 AM  

ronaprhys: Even if Marx and I share certain theories and agree on many things (like gravity, science, math, and so forth), that doesn't mean I support Marxism, socialism, or communism. Simply put, they will not ever work with humans. Our nature disallows that.

Capitalism is the least-worst system out there. It should be coupled with a government that prevents the worst excesses but also provides the lightest reins.


What is it about human nature that you believe makes capitalism the only workable system? You believe that everyone is greedy? Everyone is only ever looking out for their own self interest? Self interest, yes is a human condition. I believe it's workable in a socialist society. Greed is a learned behavior.
 
2012-10-03 11:12:03 AM  

ronaprhys: FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Then you've failed all of your history classes. Human nature is about getting everything you possibly can for your specific group. That can be a family, a small village, town, country, group, whatever. It is conflict based - winners and losers. Just like nature.

So you believe in conflict theory. Glad you read up on your Marx :)

Even if Marx and I share certain theories and agree on many things (like gravity, science, math, and so forth), that doesn't mean I support Marxism, socialism, or communism. Simply put, they will not ever work with humans. Our nature disallows that.

Capitalism is the least-worst system out there. It should be coupled with a government that prevents the worst excesses but also provides the lightest reins.


This man is wise.

/and will also be shouted down
 
2012-10-03 11:13:00 AM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Even if Marx and I share certain theories and agree on many things (like gravity, science, math, and so forth), that doesn't mean I support Marxism, socialism, or communism. Simply put, they will not ever work with humans. Our nature disallows that.

Capitalism is the least-worst system out there. It should be coupled with a government that prevents the worst excesses but also provides the lightest reins.

What is it about human nature that you believe makes capitalism the only workable system? You believe that everyone is greedy? Everyone is only ever looking out for their own self interest? Self interest, yes is a human condition. I believe it's workable in a socialist society. Greed is a learned behavior.


Ever tried to take food away from a dog that hasn't been trained?

Better yet, make that a wolf.
 
2012-10-03 11:15:19 AM  
The only Socialism that most of you understand is Soviet styled "socialism" or what we call Stalinism. Does it work? No. Why? Stalin threw out all of the teachings of Marx/Lenin and said "Fark it. We only need socialism in one country!" Socialism is intended to be a worldwide movement amongst workers.

Imagine this.... I know it seems a bit crazy..... but hear me out.... Imagine a world were run by the people that make up the majority of the population..... instead of an elite class hell bent on its on perpetual power.... ahhh who am I kidding, the wealthy know what's best for me. I submit to the bossman, I'll do whatever is asked of me.
 
2012-10-03 11:16:19 AM  

Marine1: Ever tried to take food away from a dog that hasn't been trained?

Better yet, make that a wolf.



Ok so we have now established hunger as a need. That's nice. Why do so many people go hungry?
 
2012-10-03 11:17:35 AM  

TappingTheVein: Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds. A bit long but explains the reality of the situation in Greece. Greece's economy will change when the mentality of the Greeks changes. Anything else is a waste of time.


Linked TFA:As he finishes his story the finance minister stresses that this isn't a simple matter of the government lying about its expenditures. "This wasn't all due to misreporting," he says. "In 2009, tax collection disintegrated, because it was an election year."

"What?"

He smiles.

"The first thing a government does in an election year is to pull the tax collectors off the streets."

"You're kidding."

Now he's laughing at me. I'm clearly naïve.


The Euro is screwed.
 
2012-10-03 11:18:02 AM  

FarkedOver: The thing about capitalism is that it constantly has to re-invent itself or it gets unsustainable. Capitalism has taken many forms over the years: Feudalism, Slavery, Mercantilism, etc. What we have now is no different and it will change. How? I don't know, but I work toward socialism.


UUmm, gee, that sounds just like, oh, yea, it is a Ponzi!

suckers
 
2012-10-03 11:19:50 AM  

FarkedOver: The only Socialism that most of you understand is Soviet styled "socialism" or what we call Stalinism. Does it work? No. Why? Stalin threw out all of the teachings of Marx/Lenin and said "Fark it. We only need socialism in one country!" Socialism is intended to be a worldwide movement amongst workers.

Imagine this.... I know it seems a bit crazy..... but hear me out.... Imagine a world were run by the people that make up the majority of the population..... instead of an elite class hell bent on its on perpetual power.... ahhh who am I kidding, the wealthy know what's best for me. I submit to the bossman, I'll do whatever is asked of me.


Sunshine, Lollypops and Rainbows
 
2012-10-03 11:20:11 AM  

FarkedOver: The only Socialism that most of you understand is Soviet styled "socialism" or what we call Stalinism. Does it work? No. Why? Stalin threw out all of the teachings of Marx/Lenin and said "Fark it. We only need socialism in one country!" Socialism is intended to be a worldwide movement amongst workers.

Imagine this.... I know it seems a bit crazy..... but hear me out.... Imagine a world were run by the people that make up the majority of the population..... instead of an elite class hell bent on its on perpetual power.... ahhh who am I kidding, the wealthy know what's best for me. I submit to the bossman, I'll do whatever is asked of me.


Quit paraphrasing Lennon and maybe you'll get somewhere.

FarkedOver: What is it about human nature that you believe makes capitalism the only workable system? You believe that everyone is greedy? Everyone is only ever looking out for their own self interest? Self interest, yes is a human condition. I believe it's workable in a socialist society. Greed is a learned behavior.


Learn to not put words in my mouth. I said it's the least-worst system. A benevolent dictatorship, consitutional monarchy, and other systems could be better for a short period of time but tend to lead to Very Bad Things. I don't and have never proposed unbridled capitalism. See my below responses and actually think about them, conceptually. I make no argument that capitalism doesn't lead to excesses - however, it's also led to the greatest improvements in the standard of living, available conveniences, overall health, etc. Yes, it does need appropriate reigns, but that doesn't negate its beneficial impact.
 
2012-10-03 11:22:17 AM  

FarkedOver: Marine1: Ever tried to take food away from a dog that hasn't been trained?

Better yet, make that a wolf.


Ok so we have now established hunger as a need. That's nice. Why do so many people go hungry?


Once you get away from needs, those will be replaced with wants. Simply put, it's the nature of all complex life to want more. Whether or not we need a specific thing is irrelevant. If some group that is not us wants what we have and won't give us what we want for it, they ain't getting it unless they're willing and able to take it from us by force. Plain and simple. Your worldview completely ignores this.
 
2012-10-03 11:22:48 AM  

Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

Well, you can either pay more money in taxes or cut services. They don't want to do the first, so they have to do the second.


Both of those things are terrible terrible ideas in a recession.
 
2012-10-03 11:24:17 AM  

ronaprhys: Learn to not put words in my mouth. I said it's the least-worst system. A benevolent dictatorship, consitutional monarchy, and other systems could be better for a short period of time but tend to lead to Very Bad Things. I don't and have never proposed unbridled capitalism. See my below responses and actually think about them, conceptually. I make no argument that capitalism doesn't lead to excesses - however, it's also led to the greatest improvements in the standard of living, available conveniences, overall health, etc. Yes, it does need appropriate reigns, but that doesn't negate its beneficial impact.


I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth, maybe just trying to get a better understanding of your position, sorry if it seemed that way. But what you espouse doesn't sound that far off from what was written in Das Kapital. Marx is in agreement about capitalism with you. He says its a great way to industrialize and created a standard of living. Marx explicitly notes that there is a need for capitalism. It has it's place. What do we do after capitalism? That's the question. We cannot assume it will always be here, it would be foolish to think that humans will rest on their laurels and say "GOOD ENOUGH!". I don't think you and I are in as much of a disagreement as we might think lol (if that makes sense)
 
2012-10-03 11:24:47 AM  

FarkedOver: The only Socialism that most of you understand is Soviet styled "socialism" or what we call Stalinism. Does it work? No. Why? Stalin threw out all of the teachings of Marx/Lenin and said "Fark it. We only need socialism in one country!" Socialism is intended to be a worldwide movement amongst workers.

Imagine this.... I know it seems a bit crazy..... but hear me out.... Imagine a world were run by the people that make up the majority of the population..... instead of an elite class hell bent on its on perpetual power.... ahhh who am I kidding, the wealthy know what's best for me. I submit to the bossman, I'll do whatever is asked of me.


So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.
 
2012-10-03 11:25:25 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Poor Greeks are getting bent over and screwed hard

Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

FarkedOver: Mommy, what are the rich doing to the working class of Greece!?

Yeah, because Greece was a model of sound fiscal policy and transparent government before those greedy bankers kicked their bond rates up a couple of percent. Austerity may not be the best way to get out of their mess, but it sure as hell didn't cause it. Greece has not only squandered every opportunity to show that it can be serious about getting its house in order, it used the proceeds to dig itself in even deeper. Greece is the Lindsay Lohan of Europe.

Please don't make me explain the 'Greek' pun in my posting.


I figured it was both a pun and a lament. I have zero sympathy for Greece and not much more for its apologists. To answer Beatings rhetorical question, Turkey's reaction would be "no take-backs, suckers!" Greece has been a mess ever since independence. Everyone there with half a brain, an ounce of initiative and isn't on the take is looking for a way out or has already found one. They need another Santorini eruption to wipe the place clean and start from scratch.
 
2012-10-03 11:25:39 AM  

LordOfThePings:  

Gates & Buffet give the Greek economy two slurpees down.


Those look like DQ Blizzards to me....
 
2012-10-03 11:26:19 AM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

Well, you can either pay more money in taxes or cut services. They don't want to do the first, so they have to do the second.

Both of those things are terrible terrible ideas in a recession.


So we print more money? Maybe just write a bunch of I-Owe-Yous? The money to support these services has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just magically appear.
 
2012-10-03 11:26:23 AM  
Hunger.

Back in the day,,,
Wolves starving were nosing around humans for food. Wolves are poor competitors to humans in a territory. The trait of eating in the presence of humans supported survival, evolved and was encouraged thru selection to favor the trait of association w/ humans. Some time passed and dog was evolved due to a survival behavior.

We do this right, we could domesticate Great Whites. We have already trained them to the association food/human.
Bears would be easy. WAG, 100-200 generations?
 
2012-10-03 11:29:44 AM  

Marine1: So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.


I like reading people's ideas of socialism when they have never read Marx, Engles, Lenin or Trotsky. :)
 
2012-10-03 11:35:47 AM  

Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

Well, you can either pay more money in taxes or cut services. They don't want to do the first, so they have to do the second.

Both of those things are terrible terrible ideas in a recession.

So we print more money? Maybe just write a bunch of I-Owe-Yous? The money to support these services has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just magically appear.


Print money, yeah. It is the least bad option. Maybe actually even a kinda good option, if handled wisely.

But no, for some reason they share a currency with a bunch of other countries that have totally different cultures, economic interests, levels of development, and governments. Yet another terrible idea.
 
2012-10-03 11:37:35 AM  

FarkedOver: Marine1: So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.

I like reading people's ideas of socialism when they have never read Marx, Engles, Lenin or Trotsky. :)


That's not an idea of socialism, it's a reality. That's literally why the Iron Curtain was put up. People who tried to escape were shot, and if they were captured, tried for treason on the grounds that they had neglected their duty to produce for the state.

And furthermore, I like when people spread their dislike for open markets through mediums produced by the open market. You do it through your computer and internet (remember, before private industry came along, the internet was a government research curiosity, and the big evil corporations IBM and Apple produced the first personal computers that became what you're on now), and Engels used the profits his father made from "exploiting the workers" with his cotton company to print the first socialist manifestos with Marx. You all can literally stare the success in the face and disregard its positive impact on the world.
 
2012-10-03 11:39:09 AM  

FarkedOver: I you believe human nature is equivalent to greed. That's nice, but i call that a learned behavior.


Just because you call a horse's tail a leg, doesn't make it one.

/it does, however, make you a horse's arse
 
2012-10-03 11:40:19 AM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

Well, you can either pay more money in taxes or cut services. They don't want to do the first, so they have to do the second.

Both of those things are terrible terrible ideas in a recession.

So we print more money? Maybe just write a bunch of I-Owe-Yous? The money to support these services has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just magically appear.

Print money, yeah. It is the least bad option. Maybe actually even a kinda good option, if handled wisely.

But no, for some reason they share a currency with a bunch of other countries that have totally different cultures, economic interests, levels of development, and governments. Yet another terrible idea.


Agreed, the Euro was a terrible idea.

However, when I say "raise taxes"... well, maybe that was a bad phrasing... I mean, "raise tax revenue". The Greeks went for years with all of these entitlements and programs and the like, and while it's fine that they do that, they didn't pay their taxes to fund all of it. Now, their economy is in the shiatter, so no one can pay the current taxes without encountering hardship. Every once in a while, the bullet has to be bitten, and this is one of those scenarios. They're going to have to pay their debts off before they can get their services back. It's just how economics works.
 
2012-10-03 11:42:23 AM  

FarkedOver: I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth, maybe just trying to get a better understanding of your position, sorry if it seemed that way. But what you espouse doesn't sound that far off from what was written in Das Kapital. Marx is in agreement about capitalism with you. He says its a great way to industrialize and created a standard of living. Marx explicitly notes that there is a need for capitalism. It has it's place. What do we do after capitalism? That's the question. We cannot assume it will always be here, it would be foolish to think that humans will rest on their laurels and say "GOOD ENOUGH!". I don't think you and I are in as much of a disagreement as we might think lol (if that makes sense)


Why is there an after capitalism? Capitalism is an inherently adaptable system. In fact, by it's very nature, it forces adaptation as new products, services, technologies, and combinations of all of those come into the market. What you're assuming is a fundamental shift in human nature due to some nebulous desire, that doesn't exist naturally in humans, to share equally. As a species, no such desire exists. As a species, relationships (outside of the biological imperative) need to be reciprocal to some extent. The faster, smarter, and stronger will naturally work to concentrate that wealth of whatever it is within themselves and their progeny. Simply put, it doesn't matter who that person is - that pattern will manifest itself in very short order. History shows this to be true time and time again.
 
2012-10-03 11:47:01 AM  

ronaprhys: Why is there an after capitalism?


Discussing a world "after capitalism" is like discussing biology "after evolution." It doesn't end and can't be ended, no matter how dearly the pseudo-intellectual charlatans would like to pretend it can and has.
 
2012-10-03 11:49:00 AM  

Tatterdemalian: ronaprhys: Why is there an after capitalism?

Discussing a world "after capitalism" is like discussing biology "after evolution." It doesn't end and can't be ended, no matter how dearly the pseudo-intellectual charlatans would like to pretend it can and has.


Do it brother Tatterdemalian.
 
2012-10-03 11:50:05 AM  

FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: What is their fair share? How much of other peoples money do you want to take? Why do you want to punnish success?

You're assuming it's their money in the first place. When it comes to the wealthy, do you honestly believe they deserve money merely for taking the risk of putting their money up to start a business? If that's the case, go bankroll a compulsive gambler, after all he's risking his money in order to make it big. I throw my lot in with labor, you know the people who actually create products and wealth. Tax the rich free the workers.


DERP!!! You should try that economic model, comrade. See how it works out for you.
 
2012-10-03 11:50:35 AM  

Apocalyptic Inferno: not5am: FarkedOver: ManRay: In other news...citizens not paying their fair share can lead to problems.

But enough about the wealthy of the US, let's get back to the topic at hand: Greece.

it's a cautionary tale of the future of amercia if president obama is reelected.

/not intended to be a factual statement.

Four more years and another $5 or $6 trillion added to the debt. Not even the US can sustain that kind of borrowing for much longer.


Then the Bush tax cuts need to expire. You think Romney is going to do that?
 
2012-10-03 11:50:46 AM  

Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Austerity works!

Well, you can either pay more money in taxes or cut services. They don't want to do the first, so they have to do the second.

Both of those things are terrible terrible ideas in a recession.

So we print more money? Maybe just write a bunch of I-Owe-Yous? The money to support these services has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just magically appear.

Print money, yeah. It is the least bad option. Maybe actually even a kinda good option, if handled wisely.

But no, for some reason they share a currency with a bunch of other countries that have totally different cultures, economic interests, levels of development, and governments. Yet another terrible idea.

Agreed, the Euro was a terrible idea.

However, when I say "raise taxes"... well, maybe that was a bad phrasing... I mean, "raise tax revenue". The Greeks went for years with all of these entitlements and programs and the like, and while it's fine that they do that, they didn't pay their taxes to fund all of it. Now, their economy is in the shiatter, so no one can pay the current taxes without encountering hardship. Every once in a while, the bullet has to be bitten, and this is one of those scenarios. They're going to have to pay their debts off before they can get their services back. It's just how economics works.


I think we all agree it sucks for the Greeks, but that's part of life. If I personally incur all sorts of debt that I can't pay for, I'm the one on the hook for that debt. I can default on it and suffer the consequences (financial hardship, future inability to get more credit until I've proven I'm once again worthy), tighten my belt to pay it all off (financial hardship), work with my lenders - where I'm at their mercy and goodwill - to pay back said debt over a longer period of time, or some combination of all three. In fact, it'll likely be the last two or all three, by law. The Greeks are in no different situation.

But economically, it does boil down to spend less and get more revenues. That can come from raising taxes themselves or getting businesses to be more successful so more revenue is taxed. The spending less portion could be postponed if the tax revenue could be increased. However, I think at this point Greece's economy is so bad it's going to have to be both.
 
2012-10-03 11:51:52 AM  

Marine1: FarkedOver: Marine1: So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.

I like reading people's ideas of socialism when they have never read Marx, Engles, Lenin or Trotsky. :)

That's not an idea of socialism, it's a reality. That's literally why the Iron Curtain was put up. People who tried to escape were shot, and if they were captured, tried for treason on the grounds that they had neglected their duty to produce for the state.

And furthermore, I like when people spread their dislike for open markets through mediums produced by the open market. You do it through your computer and internet (remember, before private industry came along, the internet was a government research curiosity, and the big evil corporations IBM and Apple produced the first personal computers that became what you're on now), and Engels used the profits his father made from "exploiting the workers" with his cotton company to print the first socialist manifestos with Marx. You all can literally stare the success in the face and disregard its positive impact on the world.


O like it when people spread their dislike for communism outside of Nazi prison camps. Remember, before the crash industrialization programs the Soviet government enforced, the Russian empire was a nation of potato farming peasants. The fash would have overrun them in short order, dooming the world. You can stare success in the face and disregard its positive impact on the world.
 
2012-10-03 11:53:39 AM  

Joe Blowme: FarkedOver: Joe Blowme: What is their fair share? How much of other peoples money do you want to take? Why do you want to punnish success?

You're assuming it's their money in the first place. When it comes to the wealthy, do you honestly believe they deserve money merely for taking the risk of putting their money up to start a business? If that's the case, go bankroll a compulsive gambler, after all he's risking his money in order to make it big. I throw my lot in with labor, you know the people who actually create products and wealth. Tax the rich free the workers.


So how much of other peoples money do you want to take so you can keep paying nothing?


Yeah, if the 35% effective tax I pay is nothing, can I have it back please? The 15% or less that the wealthy pay is the joke. If you look at the debt graph, the Bush tax cuts are by far the largest contributor to it, several times even that of the combined costs of the bailouts and wars.
 
2012-10-03 12:00:38 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: FarkedOver: Marine1: So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.

I like reading people's ideas of socialism when they have never read Marx, Engles, Lenin or Trotsky. :)

That's not an idea of socialism, it's a reality. That's literally why the Iron Curtain was put up. People who tried to escape were shot, and if they were captured, tried for treason on the grounds that they had neglected their duty to produce for the state.

And furthermore, I like when people spread their dislike for ...


They were a feudal empire that was then brought up to standards by a communist government. That standard that they sought was the standard set by capitalist societies, like the US and UK. In some ways, yeah, they were better than the Romanovs. On the other hand, they still instituted economic slavery over the people of Russia and the other SFSRs.

And let's be honest here: the Nazis weren't stopped by a round of 5-year plans. They were stopped by a brutal winter, their own drug-addled psychopath of a leader, the opening of a second front in the European theater, the hard work of Soviet soldiers, and Stalin's ability to throw as much cannon fodder at the Germans as he wanted. There's a reason more of them died in WWII than anyone else.
 
2012-10-03 12:01:48 PM  

MechTard: Apocalyptic Inferno: not5am: FarkedOver: ManRay: In other news...citizens not paying their fair share can lead to problems.

But enough about the wealthy of the US, let's get back to the topic at hand: Greece.

it's a cautionary tale of the future of amercia if president obama is reelected.

/not intended to be a factual statement.

Four more years and another $5 or $6 trillion added to the debt. Not even the US can sustain that kind of borrowing for much longer.

Then the Bush tax cuts need to expire. You think Romney is going to do that?


Not to butt in on your conversation, but do you think Obama is going to do that?
 
2012-10-03 12:05:08 PM  

Marine1: They were a feudal empire that was then brought up to standards by a communist government. That standard that they sought was the standard set by capitalist societies, like the US and UK. In some ways, yeah, they were better than the Romanovs. On the other hand, they still instituted economic slavery over the people of Russia and the other SFSRs.

And let's be honest here: the Nazis weren't stopped by a round of 5-year plans. They were stopped by a brutal winter, their own drug-addled psychopath of a leader, the opening of a second front in the European theater, the hard work of Soviet soldiers, and Stalin's ability to throw as much cannon fodder at the Germans as he wanted. There's a reason more of them died in WWII than anyone else.


They also killed millions and millions of people just to force their ideology. Whether or not it was true socialism as people like FarkedOver want is irrelevant to that point - they were some of worst mass murderers out there.
 
2012-10-03 12:08:59 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: MechTard: Apocalyptic Inferno: not5am: FarkedOver: ManRay: In other news...citizens not paying their fair share can lead to problems.

But enough about the wealthy of the US, let's get back to the topic at hand: Greece.

it's a cautionary tale of the future of amercia if president obama is reelected.

/not intended to be a factual statement.

Four more years and another $5 or $6 trillion added to the debt. Not even the US can sustain that kind of borrowing for much longer.

Then the Bush tax cuts need to expire. You think Romney is going to do that?

Not to butt in on your conversation, but do you think Obama is going to do that?


He'd be stupid to do so in current economic conditions, I suppose.

Here's what needs to happen:

We need more revenue generation.

We need to spend more on things that are good investments... not experimental programs, not a free ride for everyone, but proven shiat like highways, telecommunications infrastructure, science, and education.

We need to get the Europeans to stop freeloading off of our defense capabilities. Part (but not all) of the reason why the US spends so much is to cover what our NATO allies won't do. They can either pay us to take up their part or they can get used to the idea that their ass cheeks are bare in the winter wind if Russia or the Middle East become any more unstable. Tell them that they are obliged to maintain a certain state of readiness under a treaty that they willingly signed to. This takes a lot of pressure of the US in Afghanistan.

That takes care of quite a few problems.
 
2012-10-03 12:15:05 PM  

Marine1: Holocaust Agnostic: Marine1: FarkedOver: Marine1: So you get the state to control the means of production? The "capital" that makes the workers able to produce things, right?

Tiny problem, and it's a big one: human beings are capital. They are the ultimate means of production. Imagine you live in a socialist society. You work at the widget factory as a part of the assembly line that produces whatzits. Your niece is getting married, and you want to go on vacation to see her exchange her vows with her beloved.

Well, jeeze, I don't know. You see, that doesn't work towards the best outcome for society. You can go see your niece get married, sure, but then we suddenly have a shift in the supply curve because the labor force for your product is reduced by your absence. Furthermore, you're forcing everyone else on said production line to work harder to make up for your lost effort, but since everyone's wage is fixed at a certain point (wouldn't want inequality now, would we?), we can't raise the price of the whatzit to pay for their wages and the additional resources needed to help the workers be more productive while you're gone. We're not getting anywhere near our production-possibility frontier if you're gone. Multiply this times a few million workers and you have a real problem. Obviously, if you aren't giving according to your ability (it's not necessary that you go to the wedding, so you're able to give more), then we can't give to each according to his need.

The solution? No wedding, no break when *you* want it, and if you do leave, prepare for dire consequences.

I like reading people's ideas of socialism when they have never read Marx, Engles, Lenin or Trotsky. :)

That's not an idea of socialism, it's a reality. That's literally why the Iron Curtain was put up. People who tried to escape were shot, and if they were captured, tried for treason on the grounds that they had neglected their duty to produce for the state.

And furthermore, I like when people spread their dislike for ...

They were a feudal empire that was then brought up to standards by a communist government. That standard that they sought was the standard set by capitalist societies, like the US and UK. In some ways, yeah, they were better than the Romanovs. On the other hand, they still instituted economic slavery over the people of Russia and the other SFSRs.

And let's be honest here: the Nazis weren't stopped by a round of 5-year plans. They were stopped by a brutal winter, their own drug-addled psychopath of a leader, the opening of a second front in the European theater, the hard work of Soviet soldiers, and Stalin's ability to throw as much cannon fodder at the Germans as he wanted. There's a reason more of them died in WWII than anyone else.


Having troopers to spare is hardly helpful if you have no tanks rolling out of the factories. But yes, I agree the situation is substantially more complex then my post implied. That was sort of the point.
 
2012-10-03 12:17:27 PM  

ronaprhys: Marine1: They were a feudal empire that was then brought up to standards by a communist government. That standard that they sought was the standard set by capitalist societies, like the US and UK. In some ways, yeah, they were better than the Romanovs. On the other hand, they still instituted economic slavery over the people of Russia and the other SFSRs.

And let's be honest here: the Nazis weren't stopped by a round of 5-year plans. They were stopped by a brutal winter, their own drug-addled psychopath of a leader, the opening of a second front in the European theater, the hard work of Soviet soldiers, and Stalin's ability to throw as much cannon fodder at the Germans as he wanted. There's a reason more of them died in WWII than anyone else.

They also killed millions and millions of people just to force their ideology. Whether or not it was true socialism as people like FarkedOver want is irrelevant to that point - they were some of worst mass murderers out there.


Well, see, that's the thing: it was "true" socialism. Marx and Lenin (who was an asshole by most measures) set up a system where everyone gets "their fair share", and another asshole (Stalin) comes in and exploits it, setting up 60 years of misery. It says that human nature can be overcome and falls victim to it.

That's why socialism of the highest order doesn't work: it promises that no one will exploit the system, and then assholes come in and exploit it in a manner that is very, very hard to reverse. Hell, we even see that in Greece. Politicians promised the world to the populace, then cooked the books to stay in the Eurozone and keep their economy from tanking when they couldn't deliver on the level of income that they were earning. They're not assholes on the level of Stalin (very few people are), but they still told a bunch of lies to keep their jobs and keep the plebes happy with bread and circuses.
 
2012-10-03 12:28:10 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Try envisioning a world where you've managed to change all of human nature so completely that we don't resemble the actual human race?

No.

I you believe human nature is equivalent to greed. That's nice, but i call that a learned behavior. I say cooperation is more human nature than anything.


Afraid it is human nature - just nature, really. Greed is a hoarding of resources, in our case money, in an effort to better your own position and be more likely to survive to breed. Squirrels do it, dogs do it, pretty much any animal with half a brain does it.

Cooperation is also human nature, humans are social animals, and are more efficient and safer (more likely to survive) in groups. That's why cities exist. But these 2 do not need to be mutually exclusive, though they can be. The human brain is a constant battle between any number of polar opposites, that's why there are so many different types of personality. Much is learned, but that learned behavior is built on top of existing hereditary structures.
 
2012-10-03 12:35:05 PM  

Joe Blowme: So what is your idea of "Fair Share" mr. jealous? 70% of the bill is not enought for you? What about your fair share?


define "fair share". i think "fair share" should be based on size of the income gap between yourself and the national average (for federal taxes). making people that's on federal/state assistance to pay more isn't "fair" at all, it's trying to get blood from stone.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:04 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Not to butt in on your conversation, but do you think Obama is going to do that?


he kind of did, a couple of months ago. he suggested it expire for those making more than $250K/year. republicans spun it as a tax hike on the middle class.

either way, america isn't going to end up like greece anytime soon. in greece, rich AND poor are flat out not paying taxes. there was a nytimes article ealier this year about how a gas station owner in greece chased off a tax collector with a bulwhip and how citizens literally hide when they see a tax collector coming. greece's problems are waaaaay out there.
 
2012-10-03 12:46:03 PM  

ronaprhys: They also killed millions and millions of people just to force their ideology. Whether or not it was true socialism as people like FarkedOver want is irrelevant to that point - they were some of worst mass murderers out there.


[Citation Needed]

The number of deaths attributed to socialism or "communism" are wildly inflated. If we applied the same standard to capitalism you would see an astronomic figure as well.
 
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