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(CNN)   What is the church's role in education? Generally, they're against it   (schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 74
    More: Interesting, Michelle Rhee, Episcopal Church, Freedom From Religion Foundation, making excuses, Black in America, jesus, education policy, Baptist church  
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5806 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Oct 2012 at 8:54 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 10:35:16 AM  

Magorn: God-is-a-Taco: "Faith leaders" and "education" used in the same headline without negatives or sarcasm?
Your school blog sucks, CNN.

Well, considering that the public education system in this country wouldn't even exist without the Catholic Church, perhaps they know more than you about the subject.

The free universal public education system only came about after the waves of Irish and Italian immigrants started coming to this country in the 1840-60's. They brough with them Many Catholic traditions including low-cost parochial schools and the religious orders dedicated to teaching (Sister of St Joseph, The Dominicans, the Jesuits, The Christian Brothers, the Marists, etc etc.

These schools, and their policy of providing nearly free education to anyone who wanted it so alarmed anti-immigrant bigots like the Nativists (who were convinced that it was all a plot to brainwash the children into becoming Papist operatives who would overthrow the US government) that they demanded that tax dollars be used to set up free, and secular public schools. This created the framework that let the progressives of the 1890's to push for compulsory attendance at school as a way to combat child labor.


Don't forget the benefits of teaching patriotic propaganda in the form of 'U.S. History' to kids for several generations.
 
2012-10-03 10:41:48 AM  

Real Women Drink Akvavit: The Irresponsible Captain: Churches should have little role in public education; mainly to encourage children to go and finish high school, and to provide support in any way they can. However, the Catholic church really did do a great service to it's followers with it's big push for education post-war. Other faiths... well YMMV.

/What would a Pagan school look like?

Shrines to various deities everywhere, many classes held outdoors and most of the debates would be overly polite with the occasional "Don't tell me what to do. You're doing it wrong." from the more aggressive types.

I'd have loved to go to a Pagan/Heathen school that honored the Wheel of the Year, at least, maybe some of the Heathen specific holidays as well. The Wheel of the Year has 8 holidays, four of them major, and the Heathenfolk, depending on what type of Heathen (Asatru, Forn Sed, Nordisk Sed, Irminist, Anglo Saxon, etc etc) you could have one or two parties a month, as schools tend to do for their students. I loves me a good party!


So a catholic school with No nuns basically? (and skyclad gym classes maybe?) It's not an accident that nearly 90% of the pagans I know personally (and that is a LARGE number btw) were raised Catholic. (My own hobby of researching relgions and their practices lets me get a huge chuckle out of things like that Catholic pratice, during the EASTER (Aester) Vigil mass of extinguishing every light in the church, having a priest stand of the Portico of the church and create and then ritually bless a sacred bonfire, and then ritually re-light every candle in the church (and ones held by all the congregants) with flame from that fire--Beltane anyone?)
 
2012-10-03 10:43:04 AM  

Magorn: Well, considering that the public education system in this country wouldn't even exist without the Catholic Church, perhaps they know more than you about the subject.

The free universal public education system only came about after the waves of Irish and Italian immigrants started coming to this country in the 1840-60's. They brough with them Many Catholic traditions including low-cost parochial schools and the religious orders dedicated to teaching (Sister of St Joseph, The Dominicans, the Jesuits, The Christian Brothers, the Marists, etc etc.


Let's fix this history lesson of yours. Before WWI it's quite true that most schools were run by churches. However, mandatory public education came after WWI and was largely the result of so many children working jobs for pitiful wages that their fathers, just coming back from the war, were unable to find work. Wide spread public education and child labor laws came about largely as a way of getting children out of the work force to reduce competition for adults. The idea that it came about because of the semi-for-profit parochial schools is a myth at best.
 
2012-10-03 10:48:01 AM  

Cythraul: Magorn: God-is-a-Taco: "Faith leaders" and "education" used in the same headline without negatives or sarcasm?
Your school blog sucks, CNN.

Well, considering that the public education system in this country wouldn't even exist without the Catholic Church, perhaps they know more than you about the subject.

The free universal public education system only came about after the waves of Irish and Italian immigrants started coming to this country in the 1840-60's. They brough with them Many Catholic traditions including low-cost parochial schools and the religious orders dedicated to teaching (Sister of St Joseph, The Dominicans, the Jesuits, The Christian Brothers, the Marists, etc etc.

These schools, and their policy of providing nearly free education to anyone who wanted it so alarmed anti-immigrant bigots like the Nativists (who were convinced that it was all a plot to brainwash the children into becoming Papist operatives who would overthrow the US government) that they demanded that tax dollars be used to set up free, and secular public schools. This created the framework that let the progressives of the 1890's to push for compulsory attendance at school as a way to combat child labor.

Don't forget the benefits of teaching patriotic propaganda in the form of 'U.S. History' to kids for several generations.


Propaganda in my Public schools?
www.ikewrites.com

though to be fair that really started up right around WWI (about the same time as the Sedition acts) When a majority of the country either opposed the US' entry into the War of thought we should be joining the other side, and so the US government began to demand "loyalty" from it citizens and criminalized poltical dissent. It's also about the time that many mid-western school districts switched from German to English as thier primary instructional language (also why my Grandmother emigrated from Germany to NYC in 1918, but my mother and her brother don't speak a single word of German)
 
2012-10-03 10:51:44 AM  

Rose McGowan Loveslave: Yeah lol I really butchered that didn't I?

Churches shoud not have a say in public education.


rev. dave: Religious leaders should stick to everything subjective and leave science for everything that is objective. If they can keep those boundaries, then life for everyone will get better.


Even better, just go out of business.

Religion = Superstition + $$$$$
 
2012-10-03 10:54:36 AM  

the_geek: Magorn: Well, considering that the public education system in this country wouldn't even exist without the Catholic Church, perhaps they know more than you about the subject.

The free universal public education system only came about after the waves of Irish and Italian immigrants started coming to this country in the 1840-60's. They brough with them Many Catholic traditions including low-cost parochial schools and the religious orders dedicated to teaching (Sister of St Joseph, The Dominicans, the Jesuits, The Christian Brothers, the Marists, etc etc.

Let's fix this history lesson of yours. Before WWI it's quite true that most schools were run by churches. However, mandatory public education came after WWI and was largely the result of so many children working jobs for pitiful wages that their fathers, just coming back from the war, were unable to find work. Wide spread public education and child labor laws came about largely as a way of getting children out of the work force to reduce competition for adults. The idea that it came about because of the semi-for-profit parochial schools is a myth at best.


By 1870 almost every state in the union had a Public school system, and yes by 1918 every single one had a compulsary attendance law. Removing Children from the labor force was indeed the driving motivation of school sttendance laws (both for economic reasons and because of the Progressive movement of the early 1900's) but the creation of the system at all was a direct result of Nativist outcry over parochial schools. The Famous poltical cartoonist Thomas Nast was one of the leading voices in this movement, which led to this famous cartoon:
instruct.westvalley.edu
 
2012-10-03 10:57:01 AM  
"These are the five things a father is required to do for his son: ...educate him, teach him a trade, and tech him to swim" - Talmud, Kiddushin 29a

// might be 30a, I'm citing from memory
// the other 2 are circumcision and to find him a wife (and redemption, if he's a firstborn)
// and then an argument ensues about whether it applies to women as well - IIRC he has to make sure she's "cared for" and can support herself if need be
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-03 10:57:15 AM  

GAT_00: Cythraul: FTA: "We still get the largest number of black people gathering every week so that becomes an easy way to disseminate information. Television is wonderful, radio is wonderful but when a pastor is able to stand in front and mobilize his or her congregation there's no comparison."

I really am beginning to agree with Marx on organized religion.

Yeah, I think it's the only thing he got really right.


He was pretty good at diagnosing the problems with capitalism. Not so good at solving them but he understood the problem.
 
2012-10-03 11:05:20 AM  

rev. dave: Religious leaders should stick to everything subjective and leave science for everything that is objective. If they can keep those boundaries, then life for everyone will get better.


The 19th Century called. They want their broke-down discredited epistemology back.
 
2012-10-03 11:11:24 AM  

Farking Canuck: Believing that magic is real has never been logical.


All facts begin as dreams dreamt by a wizard.
 
2012-10-03 11:19:43 AM  
From TFA:

Bishop Charles Blake, presiding bishop and pastor of West Angeles Church of God in Christ in Los Angeles, said "I think churches should become acquainted [with] the schools that are in their community."

He believes a church should recruit its congregation to volunteer at educational facilities while at the same time evaluate the overall health and well-being of schools.

"I think that if churches work holistically into the lives of the people in the community, then the community will produce better children more capable and able to excel educationally," said Blake.


The children at the schools come from the community. The people at the church come from the community. Isn't that, in a roundabout way, telling parents to get involved in their own child's education? I have to say that I agree. Parents SHOULD be more involved with their child's education and school. They also shouldn't need a church to point this out to them.
 
2012-10-03 11:23:32 AM  

Farking Canuck: GAT_00: Religion has as much of a role to play in public education as Flat Earthers do. The intelligence level of both is equal.

You're being a little hard on the Flat Earthers don't you think? At least at one time, before we understood that the earth is roughly spherical, their belief was reasonable.

Believing that magic is real has never been logical.


A working defintion of magic: A belief that a person's perception and/or will alone can have an objectively observeable effect on physical reality

NOw, go read up on quantum Physics and things like "spooky action at a distance" or even the uncertainty principle, and then get back to me on how "illogical" a belief in magic is
 
2012-10-03 11:26:32 AM  
Without getting too much into it, I don't want religion anywhere near my public schools.

It's very simple, to me: Your religion is not fact, truth, or science; it is faith. And education should not be based on faith, but on evidence. I'm making no value judgments here - you could be a good moral upstanding right-thinking person who feeds the hungry and cares for the sick, but your religion should stay out of my public schools.

Now, if I wanted my kids to grow up to be good, moral, upstanding right-thinking people who feed the hungry and care for the sick, I might choose to expose them to your religion, or they might seek it out themselves, or they might try it and discard it, as I have myself. But they should never be FORCED to be indoctrinated by the government or a ballot box tyranny. And my taxes shouldn't be used to support your faith - only my freely-given charity.
 
2012-10-03 11:29:17 AM  
The Irresponsible Captain

/What would a Pagan school look like?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-03 11:35:57 AM  

Gulper Eel: CNN spoke with some prominent religious leaders in the African-American community to find out their views on the role faith institutions should play in public education.

It's okay long as they keep voting Democratic.


1/10 Meh, Comes off as desperate this close to the election.
 
2012-10-03 11:52:21 AM  

Magorn: A working defintion of magic: A belief that a person's perception and/or will alone can have an objectively observeable effect on physical reality


Yes ... provide your own definition before making an argument. That certainly helps your case.

NOw, go read up on quantum Physics and things like "spooky action at a distance" or even the uncertainty principle, and then get back to me on how "illogical" a belief in magic is

Those are scientific theories ... you do not and should not 'believe' in them. You should decide how likely you feel they are to be correct based on the weight of evidence. 

/you should really use a browser that has spell-check. It adds almost as much credibility to your arguments as adding your own custom definitions of words does.
 
2012-10-03 11:55:50 AM  

Abuse Liability: There is less profit in staying in the imaginary realm. And the church's every organization EVER's primary reason to exist is to generate profit.


While your adjustment is true ... the difference is that religions deny that their primary goal is profit and enjoy a tax free status because of the success in selling this lie.
 
2012-10-03 12:17:43 PM  

soakitincider: I went to a catholic school and recieved an education better than that of my public school peers.


You are lucky. I did as well with much the opposite result. Paid for it big in college.
 
2012-10-03 02:04:18 PM  

kaseyfarksdaladies: soakitincider: I went to a catholic school and recieved an education better than that of my public school peers.

You are lucky. I did as well with much the opposite result. Paid for it big in college.


I would say the faculty/funding of the school comes in to play as well.
 
2012-10-03 02:32:01 PM  

fusillade762: PUBLIC education? No. You don't get any farking say when it's paid for by the government.

I stopped reading right there because it pissed me off.


That's a shame, because it's clear from the rest of the article that they are talking about educating the public and not about state-funded education.
 
2012-10-03 06:58:41 PM  

orbister: fusillade762: PUBLIC education? No. You don't get any farking say when it's paid for by the government.

I stopped reading right there because it pissed me off.

That's a shame, because it's clear from the rest of the article that they are talking about educating the public and not about state-funded education.


Ah, sorry to shoot my wad prematurely there. In my defense I was drunk.
 
2012-10-03 07:50:05 PM  

Magorn:
These schools, and their policy of providing nearly free education to anyone who wanted it so alarmed anti-immigrant bigots like the Nativists (who were convinced that it was all a plot to brainwash the children into becoming Papist operatives who would overthrow the US government) that they demanded that tax dollars be used to set up free, and secular public schools. This created the framework that let the progressives of the 1890's to push for compulsory attendance at school as a way to combat child labor.


Now there's a backwards compliment!
The Catholics did get that one thing right, but I hesitate to give them credit for public education.

Some of the best (and most expensive) private schools are Catholic, an exciting twist!
Yet, they separate their religion from it and "faith" isn't necessarily present.

One of the most important things to teach is skepticism and the importance of empirical evidence, and to not rely on faith.
 
2012-10-03 08:54:12 PM  

kid_icarus: "The basis of Christianity or even that of the black church, or any religion that is concerned about humanity. There is no dichotomy between spirituality and education, or liberation," said Stallworth.


Actually there is when your religion is actively opposed to real, science-based education. There's a f**king huge "dichotomy".


Catholic schools, at least here in Australia, teach proper science - including evolution. They do not teach creationism as science either.
 
2012-10-04 08:25:01 AM  
troll headline is trollacious
 
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