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(Spiegel)   Economist Joseph Stiglitz:"The American dream has become a myth"   (spiegel.de) divider line 250
    More: Sad, Joseph Stiglitz, American Dream, social inequality, income inequality metrics, SPIEGEL, American families, economists, rhetoric of science  
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10198 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 08:37:39 PM
Well, that's kind of obvious.
 
2012-10-02 08:59:21 PM
Oh yeah, well YOUR FACE IS A MYTH!
 
- It doesn't always work.
 
2012-10-02 09:06:34 PM

brap: It doesn't always work.


THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!
 
2012-10-02 09:07:55 PM
Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.
 
2012-10-02 09:09:00 PM
hmmm. i seem to remember hst talking about this for the past forty years before his death...
 
2012-10-02 09:09:22 PM
Yeah... I'm pretty sure it always was
 
2012-10-02 09:12:15 PM
Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.
 
2012-10-02 09:12:43 PM

doglover: brap: It doesn't always work.

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!



That always works.
 
WITH YOUR MOM!
 
2012-10-02 09:36:15 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


Good for you. But "the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else"? The evidence doesn't support that.

I assume that we're gauging that on one's ability to be upwardly mobile. Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations. If you want to gauge someone's ability to succeed, the best predictor in the US is actually parental income. If you're truly interested in being the land of opportunity, you'll take your collective heads out of your asses.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-02 09:36:16 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-10-02 09:42:14 PM
d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net

/got nuthin'
 
2012-10-02 09:44:19 PM
Could a guy name Horatio Alger make it in this day and age?  I doubt it, but if he changed his name to Richard Steel?  By golly I believe the world could be his quivering, accepting, and moist oyster.
 
2012-10-02 09:58:12 PM
No Carlin reference yet, I am disappoint.

go back to sleep
 
2012-10-02 10:03:38 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-02 10:06:32 PM

fusillade762: /got nuthin'


My first reaction too.

/Wonder what Friederich Zoeller has to say?
 
2012-10-02 10:06:51 PM
does this mean I won't win the lotto?
 
2012-10-02 10:07:34 PM

MorningBreath: does this mean I won't win the lotto?


Ah... I see we share the same retirement plan
 
2012-10-02 10:08:03 PM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


No the dream wasn't to be that guy. The dream was the nice house, with a hot wife, 2 kids and a dog playing in the back yard, two shiny cars in the driveway, and the mortgage payed off before the kids were in college... And for maybe two generations it was possible... not likely, but possible.
 
2012-10-02 10:09:04 PM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Bingo. We had a brief period in the years between WWII and Vietnam where both the economy and social freedom was increasing for pretty much everyone. Other than that, the American Dream has always been only partially true for only a part of the population.
 
2012-10-02 10:10:28 PM
That's nothing. Eight years ago, I was a janitor at a Burger King. Then I unclogged a toilet, only to find that the blockage was a wad of Google stock certificates. Now I own a double-rotor Sikorsky full of albino tiger cubs.
 
2012-10-02 10:11:03 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


4/10
 
2012-10-02 10:23:22 PM

fusillade762: [d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net image 500x342]

/got nuthin'


First thing that came to mind for me...
 
2012-10-02 10:27:07 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.
 
2012-10-02 10:27:28 PM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: That's nothing. Eight years ago, I was a janitor at a Burger King. Then I unclogged a toilet, only to find that the blockage was a wad of Google stock certificates. Now I own a double-rotor Sikorsky full of albino tiger cubs.


I chortled.
 
2012-10-02 10:47:55 PM
Well, I don't know about that. The American Dream is still alive, but it's getting really difficult to achieve it if you're not already born three quarters of the way there.
 
2012-10-02 11:22:47 PM

Lando Lincoln: Well, I don't know about that. The American Dream is still alive, but it's getting really difficult to achieve it if you're not already born three quarters of the way there.


It's at a fraction of it's potential of 50 years ago. You can still do it, but it's barely possible. You have to either be born into a position of near wealth, basically privileged middle class, or get it by sheer luck, either by hitting the exact right idea at the right time or knowing the right people at the right time. Straight up ability used to get you somewhere on your own, but that isn't true anymore.
 
2012-10-02 11:46:32 PM
And Obama refused to let this guy anywhere near his economic team. Sigh.
 
2012-10-02 11:47:20 PM

unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.


Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: 4/10


Not even trolling.

WorldCitizen: Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.


Yeah, well... They can have their economic austerity. I'll stand by my post.
 
2012-10-02 11:48:06 PM
The "American Dream" has been to own a house with a nice yard, have a "regular" family with a couple of kids, and a car or two. That dream was pretty much killed when Regan took office, but the decline started in the 60s. In order to afford a house with ONE kid, two adults need to be working full time jobs. Middle class incomes have pretty much stayed flat and the only reason they haven't tanked is because women started taking more jobs. Inflation has taken out most of the gains of wage increases.

Since the economy has transformed into more service driven from a construction/manufacturing driven economy, the only thing keeping it afloat are people who spend money, aka the middle class. With less money being available to spend, the economy shrinks, jobs are lost, and a downward spiral develops. The so called "job creators" aren't going to increase their production unless there is demand to support it. Those who support it don't have any money to buy. The cycle continues. And it sucks.
 
2012-10-02 11:52:23 PM

coco ebert: And Obama refused to let this guy anywhere near his economic team. Sigh.


How many times have I told you, you better not even dream about tellin' white folk the truth! You understand me? Shoot! Makin' White people riot! You better learn how to lie like me! I'm gonna find me a white man and lie to him right now!
 
2012-10-02 11:53:24 PM

NewportBarGuy: unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.

Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: 4/10

Not even trolling.

WorldCitizen: Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.

Yeah, well... They can have their economic austerity. I'll stand by my post.


Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...
 
2012-10-02 11:59:39 PM

SpaceyCat: The "American Dream" has been to own a house with a nice yard, have a "regular" family with a couple of kids, and a car or two. That dream was pretty much killed when Regan took office, but the decline started in the 60s. In order to afford a house with ONE kid, two adults need to be working full time jobs. Middle class incomes have pretty much stayed flat and the only reason they haven't tanked is because women started taking more jobs. Inflation has taken out most of the gains of wage increases.

Since the economy has transformed into more service driven from a construction/manufacturing driven economy, the only thing keeping it afloat are people who spend money, aka the middle class. With less money being available to spend, the economy shrinks, jobs are lost, and a downward spiral develops. The so called "job creators" aren't going to increase their production unless there is demand to support it. Those who support it don't have any money to buy. The cycle continues. And it sucks.



I knew I liked you :)

I'll absolutely agree with that. Wages are declining, hours worked (per job so they can avoid overtime/benefits) etc. etc... Yes, we have severe economic problems. We need to figure out how we get back jobs that pay people with a high school education $50-75K like union manufacturing used to. I have no idea how we do that. I wish I did. Trade schools? Copy the German education/technical training model? Something like that. I wish we'd have that discussion on the local level. We have a GREAT VOTECH school here in Newport. Produces some great boat builders, cooks, and beauty workers. They make good cash, the gifted ones.

We have serious issues and I'm not glossing over that. I do want to face them and find a solution. I just refuse to believe that it is over. It's not. We can still attain our hopes and dreams. I have begun living mine. The only thing I want is for more people to experience the joy I've had in getting there. heh... Sure, there was a whole LOT of suck. Tons. But, it worked out. I got lucky, very lucky.

The economic numbers and forecasts are not good. I am disheartened and angry at that. We need strong consumers with good paychecks to make our whole thing work. Every single QTR where those wages and take-home goes down... We're circling deeper down.

I just know one thing for certain... I do NOT trust this bullsh*t "20% across the board tax cut, but we'll limit deductions" thing to solve ANY of our economic problems. We're plugging along anemically, but with positive growth (minus inflation).

The service economy... Ha! These assholes sold that to us as an excuse for offshoring. "We'll keep the really cool jobs here! Trust us! All is well!"

Yes, we have serious issues. I just hope we can face them together and find a solution instead of another 2 years of screaming at each other like petulant children.

Hope you are well!
 
2012-10-03 12:02:22 AM
Came here for Hugo Stiglitz.
 
2012-10-03 12:02:34 AM

WorldCitizen: Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...


Yes. Proven how. What are the metrics we're using? Are we sure it's a good comparison? Country of 10,000,000 with excellent education and total safety net vs. country with meh education and bare safety net.

If a man in one of those countries risks everything, does the state still have a check for him? How so with the sole-proprietor?

I think your comparisons are not fully fleshed out, but I will entertain any other data you might have.
 
2012-10-03 12:03:19 AM

Richard Freckle: No Carlin reference yet, I am disappoint.

go back to sleep


Sorry I'm late.

"It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."
 
2012-10-03 12:03:49 AM
For a lot of us, the American Dream is the American Nightmare!

We didn't land on Plymouth Rock! PLYMOUTH ROCK LANDED ON US!
 
2012-10-03 12:04:43 AM
That man's wife could paint a mean looking vagina like flower.
 
2012-10-03 12:06:12 AM

fusillade762: /got nuthin'


I speak the most I-talian.
 
2012-10-03 12:07:33 AM
What was the dream? Grow up, get a job, get married, have 2 or 3 kids, buy a house, get old and die.

Yeah, that really sounds like a dream.

/My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.
 
2012-10-03 12:08:49 AM
1 percent, 99 percent, you all wish you were hung like me.
 
2012-10-03 12:10:08 AM
My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?
 
2012-10-03 12:11:28 AM

Atomic Spunk: My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?


I REST MY CASE!
 
2012-10-03 12:11:35 AM
peasantswithpitchforks.com

R.I.P. Americone Dream
 
2012-10-03 12:12:05 AM
It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.
 
2012-10-03 12:12:36 AM
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot
 
2012-10-03 12:12:53 AM

NewportBarGuy: WorldCitizen: Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...

Yes. Proven how. What are the metrics we're using? Are we sure it's a good comparison? Country of 10,000,000 with excellent education and total safety net vs. country with meh education and bare safety net.

If a man in one of those countries risks everything, does the state still have a check for him? How so with the sole-proprietor?

I think your comparisons are not fully fleshed out, but I will entertain any other data you might have.


Here's a decent start.
 
2012-10-03 12:14:23 AM

sno man: Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.

No the dream wasn't to be that guy. The dream was the nice house, with a hot wife, 2 kids and a dog playing in the back yard, two shiny cars in the driveway, and the mortgage payed off before the kids were in college... And for maybe two generations it was possible... not likely, but possible.


There is great disagreement about what "The American Dream" is.
Some favor the land where anybody can get rich.
Some favor the land where everyone who works for it can own their own home.
These two are not all that compatible.
 
2012-10-03 12:14:28 AM
The American Dream would be a whole lot more accessible if Uncle Ben Shalom hadn't made it a priority to save his buddys' asses in the mortage business. The Fed works overtime to prop up prices. 

itmakessenseblog.com
 
2012-10-03 12:16:06 AM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


WANT

i651.photobucket.com" width="800" height="520">
 
2012-10-03 12:18:59 AM
24.media.tumblr.com
 

I only listen to economist Donny Donowitz
 
2012-10-03 12:19:07 AM

fragMasterFlash: 1 percent, 99 percent, you all wish you were hung like me.


Like a bull mouse?

/that is not a typo
 
2012-10-03 12:20:39 AM

Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.


Yes. Truly, he preemptively spins, in anticipation of his grave, every time any lone person in the United States moves up the ladder. His broad views on class mobility in a nation of 300 million are absolutely threatened by the tiny percentage of people who do move up. Between that and the little jig he dances every time a modest fortune is wiped out or someone contracts a serious illness while uninsured, the man is literally a blur.

Well spotted!
 
2012-10-03 12:21:18 AM
suffolkcountylibertyreport.com 

Because capitalism is the root of all evil....
 
2012-10-03 12:21:51 AM

NewportBarGuy: unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.

Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.


Okay. JUST those countries comes out to be about 205 million. And, off hand, at least 2 of them have significantly higher population density.
 
2012-10-03 12:22:42 AM

WorldCitizen: Here's a decent start.

Mobility in earnings across pairs of fathers and sons is particularly low in France, Italy,
the United Kingdom and the United States, while mobility is higher in the Nordic
countries, Australia and Canada.


I can see that.

Across European OECD countries, there is a substantial wage premium associated with
growing up in a better-educated family, and a corresponding penalty with growing up in
a less-educated family. The premium and penalty are particularly large in southern
European countries, as well as in the United Kingdom. The penalty is also high in
Luxembourg and Ireland. In these countries the wage premium is more than 20%, while
the penalty is some 16% or more (relative to wages earned by individuals raised in a
family with average education).


I like this next one the most...

It is a challenge to measure intergenerational wage or educational mobility and to
identify the main ways in which the socio-economic status of parents can influence that of
their children as adults. A key issue is that it is difficult to disentangle the effect of parents'
socio-economic status from that of inherited abilities or disposition of individuals that
influence their wages and educational achievement.2 In general, as in this study, estimates
of the impact of parents' socio-economic status on individuals' wages and educational
achievement do not distinguish these two effects. However, to the extent that heritability
of ability does not vary systematically across countries, it should not influence crosscountry
variation in wage or educational mobility.


I mean... What we're (and this study is) saying is that our education middle and upper middle classes determine about the same future income potential with some variations . It's the lower-middle and lower class (education, economic background) we have to focus on. That is where America sucks harder because we have a very weak social safety net and public (higher) education system.

If you're saying we need a better educated population, I'm on board. That study does not indicate that it is easier to achieve "The American Dream" as you think it does. It just means they have a much better system in place to brace your fall, or help you get a leg up. I, too, wish we had such things here. Bring it to a ballot and I'll vote for it.

I still think this is a country that anyone can make it in with luck, intelligence and determination. We just don't have the same level of governmental and education support as those smaller countries do. It's a fact and I do hope that changes.
 
2012-10-03 12:23:59 AM
/My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.


imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 12:24:42 AM
img194.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 12:28:36 AM
Well, all you dipshiats have Internet access, I guess it can't be too bad now can it?

Go wash my Bentleys...plural.
 
2012-10-03 12:29:01 AM

doglover: THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!


members.iinet.net.au
 
2012-10-03 12:29:17 AM

Atomic Spunk: My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?


You forgot the Russian girl licking your butthole. Don't quit your day job, kid. Or your night job, or your weekend job, and stay in school.
 
2012-10-03 12:29:18 AM
And in conclusion, the economist expert Stiglitz declares that because of the great divide between the rich and the poor, "I should say Auf Wiedersehen to my Nazi balls." 
 
2012-10-03 12:32:56 AM
fark that. what about the great samoan dream?
 
2012-10-03 12:33:14 AM
mondaymorningpunter.files.wordpress.comCouldn't find it.
 
2012-10-03 12:35:35 AM

Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.


A million immigrants are too busy working hard and getting ahead to read the article.
 
2012-10-03 12:36:10 AM
It's not a myth. It's just been outsourced to India and China.
 
2012-10-03 12:38:17 AM
A big problem is "financial innovation."

Financial innovation means two things:
1) Creating and selling virtual products - stocks, bonds, derivatives of those products. These aren't actual goods or services. These are logical constructs.
"A financial product is about as conceptual as you can get," says Wilson Ervin, a senior adviser at Credit Suisse. "You just need paper and ink."

2) Figuring out ways to have people take on more debt. Figuring out more subtle ways of doing it. "the poor little subprime borrowers will not last long." -- Fabrice Tourre, financial executive, in a personal email.

Paul Volcker said that the only beneficial financial innovation of the past 30 years was the ATM. An unfortunate admission because the ATM is not a financial innovation, but a technological one.

It's a Farmville economy, where people spend actual cash for virtual products like tractors in the game. But the face value of these virtual products is gargantuan. In 2008, the derivatives market itself, all virtual products, was about 4 times as large as the entire world economy. It's only grown.

Booms and busts are loved by Wall Street, but all they do is suck money from outsiders and send it to insiders.

Debt is a big problem. Taking the hamburger today and promising to pay for it Tuesday is a siren song. The central banks print money to prevent bad debt from imploding. The problem with printing money though is that it's trying to get something for nothing. There's no free lunch in physics and there's no free lunch in economics. Printing money is a TINSTAAFL violation.

BUT - the game has been sold to the public like a casino sells its gambling. People have fun playing, they think they can win, and on occasion someone does win big drawing ooh's and ahh's. But for the most part, people are just bled of money. It's the house, the financial sector, that wins. And the politicians they support write the rules in their favor. Ultimate the politicians are responsible for it.

The casino-ization of the society, financial innovation and the virtual products market, and the generation of bad debt which then generates money-printing by central banks all serve to extract money from the public and direct it to the highly connected inside players. Crony capitalism at its finest. Profits are kept by the private entities and the public is forced to pay for losses.
 
2012-10-03 12:38:59 AM
Well to be fair, the professor works at Columbia. New Yorkers have always been a pessimistic bunch. Jew + New York = clinical depression.

If it was sunny, he'd worry about skin cancer. If it was raining, he's worry about mold. If it was overcast, he'd worry about the lack of vitamin d.

Nothing to see, move on.
 
2012-10-03 12:40:26 AM
I'd be better off moving to South America. I could become the dictator of a banana republic.
 
2012-10-03 12:41:05 AM

SouthParkCon: Because capitalism is the root of all evil....


Don't conflate capitalism, which is a very effective system at providing incentives and allocating resources, and crony capitalism, which is what we have today.
 
2012-10-03 12:44:32 AM
The best thing we can do to spur fiscal mobility is nationalized health care. Hard to start a new venture is you are scared crapless to leave your current employers coverage.

/went 8 years no coverage starting business - damn lucky had excellent health.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:23 AM
 
2012-10-03 12:49:09 AM
img388.imageshack.us

Was this tag on vacation today or what?
 
2012-10-03 12:49:28 AM
 
2012-10-03 12:50:50 AM
That's cause it was dreamed up by white folks in the 50s, and based on the premise of indefinitely cheap fuel and mass produced anthill communities.
 
2012-10-03 12:54:41 AM

Fano: Gordon Sinclair offers a rebuttal


That speech is from 1973....
 
2012-10-03 12:55:08 AM

NewportBarGuy: You can still make it here. I


It would help if our wages weren't facing 30 years of what amounts to stagnation. Which the other countries aren't facing.
 
2012-10-03 12:56:18 AM

Ennuipoet: Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class.


Heck, the revolution was partly because of the rich. Wealthy land speculators were pushing into the western frontier. When the natives retaliated violently, the land owners demanded that the Crown protect their newly settled areas. This became very expensive, forcing the Crown to raise taxes to pay for it. This pissed off the wealthy colonists who had to shoulder much of the tax burden. Some were angry enough to plot an insurrection.

Loyalty to the Crown mostly boiled down to money. Merchants who profited from the colonies being part of the kingdom tended to be loyalists. Landowners who would profit from independence tended to support revolution. And each side got very nasty about loyalty oaths, sometimes resorting to assault, arson or murder to acquire an oath.

It was not one of the finer moments in our country's history.
 
2012-10-03 12:57:20 AM
There are so many problems here..

1st)unlike people that willfully ignore facts, pretty much everyone can agree on the fact(supported by facts), that economic mobility has been on the decline since Reaganomics put our nation permanently in debt.

2nd)all this "American Dream", "American Exceptionalism" crap is just that, crap. Crap fed to the public by and large by people who were born rich and work out of boredom or to have a purpose to their lives, not to provide for basic necessities like shelter food and medical care. It's an attempt to make you think that, by golly, hard work will get you that suburban home, and some peace and security, when..

3rd)pretty much everyone who has actually been employed for more than a decade will tell you that hard, diligent, quality work, good performance, punctuality, all of the things they try and sell you as important don't actually mean anything. They will always, always, always promote their buddy. Period.

4th)if you weren't born into the economic elite, you will never, ever be a part of it. No amount of hard work will do it. As the new port barfly said, it's luck. Lightning strikes more people in the head each year, than who crawl up a class by their good work ethic. There are singular examples to the contrary, and they are all those 1 in 200million chances. They might have all been really hard workers, but it was blind dumb luck that chose to strike them with unfathomable success.

5th)post ww2 nostalgia needs to farking die. It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment. It was caused by the fact that we were about the only industrial nation whose manufacturing wasn't destroyed in a world spanning war. We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.
 
2012-10-03 12:58:32 AM

Forbidden Doughnut: Fano: Gordon Sinclair offers a rebuttal

That speech is from 1973....


FTA:"The belief in the American dream is reinforced by anecdotes, by dramatic examples of individuals who have made it from the bottom to the top -- but what matters most are an individual's life chances. The belief in the American dream is not supported by the data."

This definition of the American Dream seems to come from Horatio Alger, circa 1900
 
2012-10-03 12:59:13 AM

WhyteRaven74: Which the other countries aren't facing.


I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now. Whilst I agree with you about our own problems, I fail to see some beacon in other countries. Brazil has issues with inflation. Europe has austerity, aside from Germany and the oil-rich Nordic nations.

From 1980 on, I've seen the wage charts. I know we have serious issues. Considering the severity and scope of the international economic situation, we've all got a huge sh*t sammich to take a bite out of.
 
2012-10-03 12:59:32 AM
Also a huge issue - the abiilty of loan originators / lenders to avoid taking on any repayment risk.

The game is fantastic. They generate loans, then sell them, taking a healthy fee. This is why they created loans which they didn't care about having repaid, en masse. The concept is called "securitization."

At first, it seems a bizarre thing, "Why would lenders make loans they don't care about having repaid?" Once you understand it, the lightbulb goes on.

The problem is that the taxpayer winds up paying the debt via the massive bailouts. More "privatize profits, socialize losses."
 
2012-10-03 12:59:41 AM
I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding the basic principles that led to an American middle class.

We had a war in which a large number of young men were trained for military action and shipped abroad. When the war ended, our government spent a lot of money providing these men with subsidized college educations and housing, and a resulting baby boom ensued as families settled down.

At the same time, the United States was the only major power not ravaged in some way by WWII. There was no rebuilding to do. US production was able to shift from making planes and ammunition to making consumer products aimed at families, creating jobs and economic growth.

The middle class was further sustained by the Korean War, which allowed a second wave of soldiers to come home to subsidized education and housing. And the children of those who served in WWII or Korea were also able to take advantage of college educations, giving the middle class another generation in which to thrive.

What do we have to sustain a middle class in 2012? Fewer than 1% of Americans serve in the military, and the majority of Americans who graduate from high school go on to achieve some college education during their lifetime (though only about 2/3 ever finish). This means that individuals with a college education are becoming undervalued (due to excess supply) and degrees are overexpensive (since they're no longer directly subsidized for most Americans).

The same is true of manufacturing jobs, which were a staple of the middle class for those who didn't pursue higher education. When manufacturing was inexpensive in the US following the wars (due to machinery already being purchased and businesses benefiting from the war economy), the cost of labor was not a primary concern. But as labor costs increased due to bad union contracts and government intervention, the system became volatile and jobs were shipped overseas. The middle class could never indefinitely benefit from this system; jobs were bound to vanish eventually once the benefits of the war economy came to a close.

The question today should not be, "what do we do about the shrinking middle class?" but rather, "why don't we tax everyone appropriately so we can once again provide government job training and subsidies for housing and college to young people so they can rise up to a new middle class status once they're established?"

I know it seems counter-intuitive to give people money to do things they ought to be able to do themselves. But then, young people only have the money to do these things if someone else gives it to them -- so why not let it come from the government, for the betterment of all, than merely from privileged parents or predatory financial institutions?
 
2012-10-03 01:02:07 AM

neongoats: I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.


What helped immensely was several decades of rapid manufacturing growth fueled by the fact that most of the world was rebuilding from and repopulating after WWII. We had a very easy market to access.

It's not as easy these days, and having our best and brightest focused on how to dismantle companies and send them overseas for the past few decades has really twisted the knife in our side.
 
2012-10-03 01:04:13 AM

neongoats: There are so many problems here..

1st)unlike people that willfully ignore facts, pretty much everyone can agree on the fact(supported by facts), that economic mobility has been on the decline since Reaganomics put our nation permanently in debt.

2nd)all this "American Dream", "American Exceptionalism" crap is just that, crap. Crap fed to the public by and large by people who were born rich and work out of boredom or to have a purpose to their lives, not to provide for basic necessities like shelter food and medical care. It's an attempt to make you think that, by golly, hard work will get you that suburban home, and some peace and security, when..

3rd)pretty much everyone who has actually been employed for more than a decade will tell you that hard, diligent, quality work, good performance, punctuality, all of the things they try and sell you as important don't actually mean anything. They will always, always, always promote their buddy. Period.

4th)if you weren't born into the economic elite, you will never, ever be a part of it. No amount of hard work will do it. As the new port barfly said, it's luck. Lightning strikes more people in the head each year, than who crawl up a class by their good work ethic. There are singular examples to the contrary, and they are all those 1 in 200million chances. They might have all been really hard workers, but it was blind dumb luck that chose to strike them with unfathomable success.

5th)post ww2 nostalgia needs to farking die. It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment. It was caused by the fact that we were about the only industrial nation whose manufacturing wasn't destroyed in a world spanning war. We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.


THIS. You have it all summed up perfectly. Everyone in the world has everything they will ever need. There is no more innovation to be done, and all of the major corporations can handle it from here.
 
2012-10-03 01:04:25 AM
Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.
 
2012-10-03 01:05:06 AM

wildcardjack: /My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.


...what.
 
2012-10-03 01:07:08 AM
You know what the real biatch of this is?

For years the American Dream has been pushed as an ideal. People would go into debt to find that slice of happiness that they've always been promised, the sense of final dramatic victory over the world in the form of financial security and 'independence.' But it's always been a way to create a slave class that can't move, can't do what they want, and have social pressures causing them to conform.

Americans know shiat about freedom. Freedom is scary: you're totally responsible for yourself, you can't shift the blame, and you have to make hard choices. Freedom isn't something you chant as a thought-terminating cliche, it's the power to do what you want. But it takes a lot of fortitude and honesty to do that. And to be honest, freedom isn't as freeing as it sounds. It takes work, and it's certainly not a house designed to create a tax base held hostage by a shifting economy that is controlled by the 1%.

The totality of American life today is essentially extortion via a greatly exaggerated form of responsibility. How much freedom does one have when forced to beg for bare subsistence while those with much taunt you and curse you for the results of their actions? But Americans like delusion, and we love the idea of freedom being some shiny pillar that we know absolutely farking nothing about. We love the chant, and that's where it really ends. We are the first to point out how much American life sucks yet do nothing about it. We've been beaten down. We're essentially the lambs born right onto a griddle. And we brag about it like it's something to be proud of, like working ourselves to death is somehow a noble thing.

The latest economic downturn should reveal one thing to Americans at large: that we're not free. We're far from it. And it's a systemic problem that we really need to dig deep down about. This isn't a problem that overthrowing a government or playing right-wing commando with a bunch of cheap guns can resolve. This is how we deal with the dead-end philosophy that America has come to accept as 'freedom.' How do we react to the reality of freedom when we use responsibility as a form of slut shaming? Our country is broken, and it's not just in an economic sense. The foundations of American thought are, at their heart, really rotten and needlessly vile and competitive. Exactly why is simple subsistence a moral failing again? And what kind of awful people thinks that way?

All I can say right now is that when you really have time to examine American life as an outsider--as an unemployed person who is detached from that Dream--a lot of things become very clear very quickly. And I don't see many Americans going back to the Dream once the economy sorts itself out. It's hard to measure consumer confidence when you're one write-up away from being excluded from a Dream that, at its heart, is Yet Another Marketing Tool, and just as hollow.
 
2012-10-03 01:07:33 AM

neongoats: It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment.


We've never had that. Indeed the closest we ever got was just before the end of WW2, for about six months. After that unemployment was anywhere between 4 and 7%. And the late 90s saw unemployment that was better than most of the 50s.

We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

Your causes are false, and that statement is utter horseshiat, we could see it again, we just have to change how think about things.
 
2012-10-03 01:09:06 AM

Coelacanth: Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.


Leave.
 
2012-10-03 01:10:34 AM
The American Dream that is still alive and working is the dream of transferring more wealth from more people to fewer people. That dream is reality and it works very well.

The American Dream that we can scrimp and save and make out better than someone who doesn't is being killed by that other American Dream I talked about.

They are both enemies to each other. And you can guess which dream will win and which dream will be cried over at a kitchen table and which will be laughed at over a $150 steak.
 
2012-10-03 01:11:36 AM
Dear Generation X:

Fark you. You'll work until you die and be lucky to afford a timeshare in a refrigerator box and you'll like it.

Love,

Every other generation.

/but I'm not bitter
 
2012-10-03 01:11:39 AM

NewportBarGuy: I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now


Right now, at this moment? No. But over the last 30 years? They've seen wage growth, while the US really hasn't.
 
2012-10-03 01:12:45 AM

WhyteRaven74: we just have to change how think about things.


No.

No.

Nope.

I mean... I honestly don't know, my friend. You have a bill that provides businesses with a tax credit for hiring new workers... shot down by Senate GOP Filibuster. I'm sorry... "threatened" filibuster. They are all too pussy to do the actual filibuster, or allow it and have to suffer through that horror and miss their silk sheets for a night.

We have thought it out. We know the way forward. What we need is for people to stop giving a sh*t which side proposes or passes something to help all of us by helping the economy.

This partisan bickery will be the end of us much more surely than unregulated financial instruments.
 
2012-10-03 01:13:33 AM

NewportBarGuy: neongoats: I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.

What helped immensely was several decades of rapid manufacturing growth fueled by the fact that most of the world was rebuilding from and repopulating after WWII. We had a very easy market to access.

It's not as easy these days, and having our best and brightest focused on how to dismantle companies and send them overseas for the past few decades has really twisted the knife in our side.


Agreed, 110%. But "management" pays the money, so management is basically the only thing people get degrees in anymore. Who wants to slave away for no pay(because actually working with skills pays shiat compared to the useless MBA frat toolbags that get hired to tell them how to do their job.).
 
2012-10-03 01:15:36 AM

fusillade762: [d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net image 500x342]

/got nuthin'


Pretty much why I came to this thread.

But yeah, the dream is a fantasy taught to the proles to keep them in line.

Anyway, thanks, Fusillade762
 
2012-10-03 01:15:58 AM

NewportBarGuy: WhyteRaven74: we just have to change how think about things.

No.

No.

Nope.

I mean... I honestly don't know, my friend. You have a bill that provides businesses with a tax credit for hiring new workers... shot down by Senate GOP Filibuster. I'm sorry... "threatened" filibuster. They are all too pussy to do the actual filibuster, or allow it and have to suffer through that horror and miss their silk sheets for a night.

We have thought it out. We know the way forward. What we need is for people to stop giving a sh*t which side proposes or passes something to help all of us by helping the economy.

This partisan bickery will be the end of us much more surely than unregulated financial instruments.


i plead the second...or the fifth...
I always get those two confused.
 
2012-10-03 01:16:16 AM
When are we going to bring back Tar and Feathering? Our ancestors must think we are a bunch of pus*ies! 

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-03 01:17:19 AM
Every empire eventually collapses. Every system eventually fails. So enjoy the debauchery of the decline.
 
2012-10-03 01:17:42 AM
Some pretty good comments in here.
 
2012-10-03 01:18:59 AM

JungleBoogie: SouthParkCon: Because capitalism is the root of all evil....

Don't conflate capitalism, which is a very effective system at providing incentives and allocating resources, and crony capitalism, which is what we have today.


Is there any other kind? 
www.subprimeshakeout.com
 
2012-10-03 01:20:27 AM
Why Bernake instead of Stiglitz, I have no farking idea.
 
2012-10-03 01:21:12 AM

NewportBarGuy: I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now. Whilst I agree with you about our own problems, I fail to see some beacon in other countries. Brazil has issues with inflation. Europe has austerity, aside from Germany and the oil-rich Nordic nations.


It's almost as if we're hitting up against physical constraints for economic expansion. Too bad we don't have another Earth to populate.
 
2012-10-03 01:21:35 AM

fredbox: Every empire eventually collapses. Every system eventually fails. So enjoy the debauchery of the decline.


Enjoy the false sense of omnipotence as you judge an entire culture from behind your monitor. I'm sure you have some insight which has escaped everyone else until now. I'll be sure to take advice from you in the future as to how to live my life, make decisions, and run an empire.

You know as much as anyone else here, including myself. I'd be willing to bet that your throne is made of the same plastic as mine. Shut up.
 
2012-10-03 01:23:06 AM
Quit cogitating Stiglitz, and use an open faced club!
 
2012-10-03 01:23:44 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


As much as I like you, I can't help but think you've got some blinders on. Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day. My first real job was the only one I've actually enjoyed outside of military stuff (and obviously not all of that). I busted my ass for that company/store, and was rewarded with lies about my chances for promotion, lies about worker's comp when I hurt my back on the job, and lies and deception about later employment stability. Also they hired a moron with a snazzy resume over promoting either myself or my co-worker, both of us having far more experience, knowledge, and especially tact and intelligence. All apparently because he showed up to interview on 9/11 and that impressed someone. (I'm not being bitter when I say that, this guy was absurdly inept long term despite being hired as a manager).

Some companies are run by good people who care about their workers. Most aren't. 'Opportunity' is not available for everyone, no matter what stories we're told around the camp fire. There is a small percentage of jobs out there that pay better than a living wage, with benefits. Not everyone can do those jobs, not everyone wants them, but there are most likely still more people who can and would than there are actual openings.

Opportunity is out there, but you can't always beat out the other guy for the opening, and that leaves you with... less.

As it is, as it always has been, just we have forgotten that over the last 50-70 years.
 
2012-10-03 01:24:49 AM
Came for the Inglorious Basterds references, leaving satisfied.
 
2012-10-03 01:26:27 AM

WhyteRaven74: neongoats: It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment.

We've never had that. Indeed the closest we ever got was just before the end of WW2, for about six months. After that unemployment was anywhere between 4 and 7%. And the late 90s saw unemployment that was better than most of the 50s.

We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

Your causes are false, and that statement is utter horseshiat, we could see it again, we just have to change how think about things.


Are you retarded? We were supplying most of the world with most of everything, including ourselves. We weren't a manufacturing powerhouse because of freedom and the American dream, we were a manufacturing, innovatin, fornicatin king because at the time we had basically unlimited markets for our crap, and we were actually the good guys on the world stage. Cars, heavy equipment, military equipment and arms, even farking textiles and toys. That era is over. Get over it. Take your boomer loving ass out of here and get a useful job :p
 
2012-10-03 01:26:41 AM
SPIEGEL: Don't the rich also give something in return? In Germany, the upper one percent contributes almost a quarter to the tax revenue, and the top ten percent more than half of the taxes. Isn't that an appropriate share?

He asked a legitimate question! Deflect! Deflect!

Stiglitz: I don't know about the German numbers. What I can say is that the top one percent in the United States has an average tax rate of less than 30 percent of their reported income, and the large proportion who take much of their income as capital gains pay far less. And we know that they are not reporting all of their income.

"I'm not going to talk about what % of the taxes they pay because that makes my argument look foolish."

After all, there's a reason that Obama says "14% on 20 million" and not "paid 2.8 million in taxes"
 
2012-10-03 01:26:57 AM
There's a house on the way to my friend's parents' place where we have our jam space. Big, brand new place on 5 acres. Guy's a Mexican immigrant who eventually started his own landscaping company, and now has this place to raise his family in.

How is that not the farking American Dream?

I have a job, make a decent wage, pay my mortgage and car payment, save a little money and have a beer with friends now and then. I'm more or less in control of my own destiny.

How is that not the farking American Dream?

Jesus Christ, you guys...
 
2012-10-03 01:27:43 AM

ladyfortuna: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

As much as I like you, I can't help but think you've got some blinders on. Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day. My first real job was the only one I've actually enjoyed outside of military stuff (and obviously not all of that). I busted my ass for that company/store, and was rewarded with lies about my chances for promotion, lies about worker's comp when I hurt my back on the job, and lies and deception about later employment stability. Also they hired a moron with a snazzy resume over promoting either myself or my co-worker, both of us having far more experience, knowledge, and especially tact and intelligence. All apparently because he showed up to interview on 9/11 and that impressed someone. (I'm not being bitter when I say that, this gu ...


Agreed. Greed is rampant, and it amazes me as to how many people can give in to it without even batting an eyelash or feeling even a tinge of guilt. I attend a lot of functions with a lot of very rich people and I can honestly say that I'm amazed at the degree to which people can rationalize their own actions. I'm not saying that everyone is like this, but make no mistake...people are capable of some pretty crappy behavior, regardless of race, religion, nationality, etc...it happens more often than we would like to believe.
 
2012-10-03 01:28:55 AM

ladyfortuna: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

As much as I like you, I can't help but think you've got some blinders on. Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day. My first real job was the only one I've actually enjoyed outside of military stuff (and obviously not all of that). I busted my ass for that company/store, and was rewarded with lies about my chances for promotion, lies about worker's comp when I hurt my back on the job, and lies and deception about later employment stability. Also they hired a moron with a snazzy resume over promoting either myself or my co-worker, both of us having far more experience, knowledge, and especially tact and intelligence. All apparently because he showed up to interview on 9/11 and that impressed someone. (I'm not being bitter when I say that, this gu ...


This.
 
2012-10-03 01:29:19 AM
Also, future generations will look back on American-style "free market capitalism" as a failed economic experiment. Experience has shown us that it simply does not work, because it is structurally incapable of mitigating the factor of human greed while it rewards those with genuine psychopathic tendencies - particularly the lack of empathy - with success that comes at the expense of others.
 
2012-10-03 01:29:54 AM
Poor people are poor because Bill Gates created Windows. Makes perfect sense to me!
 
2012-10-03 01:29:56 AM

sethen320: Shut up.


Forgive me for this, but - you mad bro? U mad?

I can't think of any other reason you would be so mad other than the fact that he's right. What do you do for a living, anyway?
 
2012-10-03 01:32:42 AM

NewportBarGuy: We have thought it out. We know the way forward. What we need is for people to stop giving a sh*t which side proposes or passes something to help all of us by helping the economy.


It's not about legislation, indeed it's not even really about government. It's how we expect businesses to fit in to society. In the 50s the CEO of GM said that what's good for American is good for GM and vice versa. What he meant was, what's good for the economy is good for business, there was no separating the two. Also there was a sense of businesses being a part of society at large, not separate from it and without any consequences for society at large. It's a way of thinking found in other places, it's just that it's largely disappeared in the US. Which isn't to say it can't come back.
 
2012-10-03 01:34:08 AM

ladyfortuna: Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day.


If I clarify, maybe that will help.

I was speaking of someone going into business for themselves. Anyone subject to a "job creator's" whims, is in for a really rocky ride.

My father was corporate/management for 30 years. He was the one that taught me (in the 1980's) about how quarterly projections were killing long-term growth. They only give a sh*t about the next batch of numbers so they don't make any plans for long term financial viability. Mortgaging today for tomorrow. Exactly what we did by using the SS Trust Fund to finance current operations and sticking a few trillion IOUs in there.

We are a demand now culture. We're f*cking children with the complete inability to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

I missed out on first-hand corporate culture, but I know it. I know the service sector, I know private local business, I know government.

I hear exactly what you are saying and can only echo it. I used to read the Harvard Business Review... did so for years. Then I realized that the goddamn thing was basically a manual for how to short-sight everything. Yes, they have some good ideas in there, but the whole culture is FUBAR.

Business used to be about building something. Something that you were proud of and showed off to everyone. Now? It's about who has the bigger bank account.

I mean, money is fine. I don't begrudge any person with money who earned it. Good for you! But, we do have a serious income inequality problem and in a consumer-driven economy... that hurts all of us.
 
2012-10-03 01:37:00 AM
Oh sure, racistmitter! That economist sounds like a douche. Besides what would a Nobel Peace Prize recipient know about our economy anyway? Wait a minute...
 
2012-10-03 01:39:16 AM
As sort of another angle on this, the "American Dream" of living in a nice suburb of a popular metro area with two cars, couple kids, time and money for leisure activities, plus saving for college and retirement is out of reach for vast majority without significant inheritance. If you don't inherit money, to get to the point where you can afford a $500k (or more like $1M in better metros) suburban house while also living comfortably is really tough -- you need to be pulling in a couple hundred thousand a year in household income and that often is only achieved after getting into serious student debt.

You can do the math, but the vast majority of people living the American Dream either got there 30 years ago, or they actually can't afford it (house poor), or inherited significant money to get there.

Certainly there are many alternative lifestyles which are arguably as good or better (living rural, living frugally without cars, etc.) but the point is that the idea of a "middle class" really doesn't exist in the US as an achievable "self made" path for most.
 
2012-10-03 01:40:54 AM

sethen320: Shut up.


Your name is now Sandy, as in your vagina.
 
2012-10-03 01:41:14 AM

NewportBarGuy: ladyfortuna: Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day.

If I clarify, maybe that will help.

I was speaking of someone going into business for themselves. Anyone subject to a "job creator's" whims, is in for a really rocky ride.

I hear exactly what you are saying and can only echo it. I used to read the Harvard Business Review... did so for years. Then I realized that the goddamn thing was basically a manual for how to short-sight everything. Yes, they have some good ideas in there, but the whole culture is FUBAR.


And this is why I like you. I had a feeling maybe I was just misunderstanding you.

My comment still stands to anyone who defends corporations as people, though.
 
2012-10-03 01:41:55 AM

spamdog: sethen320: Shut up.

Forgive me for this, but - you mad bro? U mad?

I can't think of any other reason you would be so mad other than the fact that he's right. What do you do for a living, anyway?


Not mad. It just sounds like a regurgitated statement with no originality. There is a real discussion happening here (for once) and then you get the random teenage angst sounding statements and...yeah, I may have been a bit mad.

Better now.

I have a good job, but its not really relevant to ths discussion. No, I'm not rich. I don't have a million bucks but I also don't worry about starving, I used to though. No college degree, only a GED and I make plenty to support myself and my family (even have some left over). I'm living the dream because I snuck in the back door. I do everything to extend the opportunity to others when I get the chance.
 
2012-10-03 01:42:46 AM

fredbox: sethen320: Shut up.

Your name is now Sandy, as in your vagina.


Original.
 
2012-10-03 01:43:06 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.



The stats say you are wrong, upward mobility is not the highest. But emo feelings are what you would rather believe than facts.
 
2012-10-03 01:43:34 AM

fatassbastard: There's a house on the way to my friend's parents' place where we have our jam space. Big, brand new place on 5 acres. Guy's a Mexican immigrant who eventually started his own landscaping company, and now has this place to raise his family in.

How is that not the farking American Dream?


Yes but how many of his fellow immigrants' backs did he have to break with little or no concern for their actual well-being to achieve that level of success? Several recent studies have shown that in our capitalist system, the people who exhibit the strongest psychopathic tendencies are the ones who are rewarded with success. It is that "I've got mine, screw everybody else" attitude that is necessary for real success in the free-market system. I don't know about you, but I don't like, and will fight against to my last breath, a business culture that rewards those who care the least about whose throat they have to slit open to get ahead. I realize that this is the world we live in, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it or compromise my principals just to "keep up with the Joneses." If this so-called "American Dream" requires me to not give a shiat about my fellow citizen, then I don't want it because it is inherently flawed. If you can sleep well at night knowing that you had to step on others just to climb the ladder, well partner I'd say you're the one with the character flaw, not me.
 
2012-10-03 01:44:15 AM

NewportBarGuy: It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.



Percentage wise, European countries take in far more immigrants than America.
 
2012-10-03 01:44:20 AM

sethen320: fredbox: sethen320: Shut up.

Your name is now Sandy, as in your vagina.

Original.


Not here to generate original entertainment for your benefit, sweetcheeks. You have an ignore list. Feel free to use it.
 
2012-10-03 01:44:42 AM
Anyone ever notice the newer empires decline faster than the older ones and so on?
 
2012-10-03 01:45:45 AM

FunkOut: Anyone ever notice the newer empires decline faster than the older ones and so on?


Moore's Law, doncha know.
 
2012-10-03 01:46:35 AM

fredbox: sethen320: fredbox: sethen320: Shut up.

Your name is now Sandy, as in your vagina.

Original.

Not here to generate original entertainment for your benefit, sweetcheeks. You have an ignore list. Feel free to use it.


Back at ya.

Feelings hurt?
 
2012-10-03 01:47:12 AM

FunkOut: Anyone ever notice the newer empires decline faster than the older ones and so on?


I've heard about that!!!
 
2012-10-03 01:47:55 AM

neongoats: We were supplying most of the world with most of everything,


Except we weren't. By the early 50s places like Germany, France, England etc had their production capacity back and were rocking along. It wasn't like the companies disappeared and quite a few had their production facilities left in tact. The factory that produced the original VW Beetle was a bit beat up, but it was cranking out Beetles by 48. Factories that fared worse were rebuilt by then or just a bit later. The success wasn't because of exports, but rather income growth. Actually all that rebuilding and new equipment while American factories ran on old stuff came to bite America in the ass. When you have textile mills relying on 60 year old looms whose capacity is not even half that of current looms, good luck staying business. And when you're 50 year old steel making equipment can't profitably produce small orders of rarely used steel, yeah there's a lot of customers you won't have.
 
2012-10-03 01:48:09 AM

FunkOut: Anyone ever notice the newer empires decline faster than the older ones and so on?


Turns move faster later on, just like in Civ.
 
2012-10-03 01:48:46 AM

sethen320:

Feelings hurt?


Nope.

And in summation, "meh".
 
2012-10-03 01:50:59 AM

intelligent comment below: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.


The stats say you are wrong, upward mobility is not the highest. But emo feelings are what you would rather believe than facts.


Scroll up a few, he clarified and doesn't deserve abuse (in my opinion, anyway).
 
2012-10-03 01:51:41 AM

WhyteRaven74: neongoats: We were supplying most of the world with most of everything,

Except we weren't. By the early 50s places like Germany, France, England etc had their production capacity back and were rocking along. It wasn't like the companies disappeared and quite a few had their production facilities left in tact. The factory that produced the original VW Beetle was a bit beat up, but it was cranking out Beetles by 48. Factories that fared worse were rebuilt by then or just a bit later. The success wasn't because of exports, but rather income growth. Actually all that rebuilding and new equipment while American factories ran on old stuff came to bite America in the ass. When you have textile mills relying on 60 year old looms whose capacity is not even half that of current looms, good luck staying business. And when you're 50 year old steel making equipment can't profitably produce small orders of rarely used steel, yeah there's a lot of customers you won't have.


Not to mention we rebuilt a great deal of their industry for them.

We've done such a good job at rebuilding other nations perhaps we'll try it here sometime. Of course, I'm worried that we'll destroy ourselves equally first before that happens. But I'm sure there's enough 3D printers stashed away at Site R that the nanites will have everything right as rain in a couple generations.
 
2012-10-03 01:51:45 AM

fredbox: sethen320:

Feelings hurt?

Nope.

And in summation, "meh".


Oh, ok. Thanks for the intelligent discourse.

Don't forget your ignore list!
 
2012-10-03 01:52:18 AM

WhyteRaven74: neongoats: We were supplying most of the world with most of everything,

Except we weren't. By the early 50s places like Germany, France, England etc had their production capacity back and were rocking along. It wasn't like the companies disappeared and quite a few had their production facilities left in tact. The factory that produced the original VW Beetle was a bit beat up, but it was cranking out Beetles by 48. Factories that fared worse were rebuilt by then or just a bit later. The success wasn't because of exports, but rather income growth. Actually all that rebuilding and new equipment while American factories ran on old stuff came to bite America in the ass. When you have textile mills relying on 60 year old looms whose capacity is not even half that of current looms, good luck staying business. And when you're 50 year old steel making equipment can't profitably produce small orders of rarely used steel, yeah there's a lot of customers you won't have.


This. America's immediate WWII advantage was undercut quite quickly when for instance Japan and Germany were using more recently built factories postwar. It's hard to update equipment. I still think that China and India will have great advantages by building modern infrastructure leapfrogging 3rd world technology.
 
2012-10-03 01:53:36 AM
He's certainly about that and certainly one other thing. We don't have a revolutionary spirit in this country and the change won't come from our government where it needs to come from. Basically, we're farked.
 
2012-10-03 01:58:11 AM

Hale-Bopp: He's certainly about that and certainly one other thing. We don't have a revolutionary spirit in this country and the change won't come from our government where it needs to come from. Basically, we're farked.


The last time America had a revolutionary spirit, it ended with half the south burned. And those revolutionaries were tards.
 
2012-10-03 02:01:21 AM

Fano: Hale-Bopp: He's certainly about that and certainly one other thing. We don't have a revolutionary spirit in this country and the change won't come from our government where it needs to come from. Basically, we're farked.

The last time America had a revolutionary spirit, it ended with half the south burned. And those revolutionaries were tards.


What revolutionaries are you referring to?
 
2012-10-03 02:03:06 AM
I like how they subtly compared the percentage of total tax revenue the German rich pay with the tax the American rich pay as a portion of their income. Those are totally the same thing, guys....and I'm sure an economist wouldn't notice something like that.
 
2012-10-03 02:03:51 AM

randomjsa: SPIEGEL: Don't the rich also give something in return? In Germany, the upper one percent contributes almost a quarter to the tax revenue, and the top ten percent more than half of the taxes. Isn't that an appropriate share?

He asked a legitimate question! Deflect! Deflect!

Stiglitz: I don't know about the German numbers. What I can say is that the top one percent in the United States has an average tax rate of less than 30 percent of their reported income, and the large proportion who take much of their income as capital gains pay far less. And we know that they are not reporting all of their income.

"I'm not going to talk about what % of the taxes they pay because that makes my argument look foolish."

After all, there's a reason that Obama says "14% on 20 million" and not "paid 2.8 million in taxes"




What's there to deflect? Of course when you control all the wealth you pay most of the taxes. That is obvious. Why don't you grasp that?
 
2012-10-03 02:06:26 AM

sethen320: Fano: Hale-Bopp: He's certainly about that and certainly one other thing. We don't have a revolutionary spirit in this country and the change won't come from our government where it needs to come from. Basically, we're farked.

The last time America had a revolutionary spirit, it ended with half the south burned. And those revolutionaries were tards.

What revolutionaries are you referring to?


upload.wikimedia.org

What are you, from Estonia or something?
 
2012-10-03 02:06:36 AM
Any education system in this country that isn't pressing the cause of autodidacticism (particularly in middle/HS) is a fraud. My grandparents spent serious school time practicing to perfect an ornate orthography (the appearance of their correspondence is `art' the content? shopping lists...). Currently? Hitting some marks on this or that standardized test. Being `fed' and regurgitating and forgetting isn't any more of a hedge against stupidity and early obsolescence, than was exquisite penmanship. How did the man put it? `luck is the residue of design' and, being stamped to particular `design' specs, instead of doing the drilling and machining oneself, isn't at all conducive to encouraging luck to ride along on one's shoulder.

I was that weird little shiat that broke out in a cold sweat when Gregory Peck (as Captain Ahab) gave `the speech', i.e., "...the little lower layer.." I knew exactly what was meant. To paraphrase Blake `you never know enough, until you know more than enough' (and that ain't gonna happen). Still, after all this time, piling it on and in - not too particular as to subject, either; just never know when (not if) a selective memory dump of the wetware will come in handy (hasn't failed to, yet).

/fark dreaming, hit the `books' (yeah, off lawn, now) and never stop
//not meant to address the systemic inadequacy of the current parade as it passes - just this farker's never having given a shiat about marching along in it (whether living in a car or working for Ashton-Tate)
 
2012-10-03 02:09:20 AM
It will always be a myth for the lazy.
 
2012-10-03 02:10:33 AM

Fano: It's hard to update equipment.


But it can be done. Alcoa, the aluminum company, spent lots of money updating their equipment, as often as possible. Not only that, they sold aluminum processing equipment to their own competitors. So Alcoa had no problem competing with anyone else because they made sure they had the latest and greatest stuff and have engineers who do nothing but work on that stuff.
 
2012-10-03 02:11:48 AM

Crazy Lee: Any education system in this country that isn't pressing the cause of autodidacticism (particularly in middle/HS) is a fraud. My grandparents spent serious school time practicing to perfect an ornate orthography (the appearance of their correspondence is `art' the content? shopping lists...). Currently? Hitting some marks on this or that standardized test. Being `fed' and regurgitating and forgetting isn't any more of a hedge against stupidity and early obsolescence, than was exquisite penmanship. How did the man put it? `luck is the residue of design' and, being stamped to particular `design' specs, instead of doing the drilling and machining oneself, isn't at all conducive to encouraging luck to ride along on one's shoulder.

I was that weird little shiat that broke out in a cold sweat when Gregory Peck (as Captain Ahab) gave `the speech', i.e., "...the little lower layer.." I knew exactly what was meant. To paraphrase Blake `you never know enough, until you know more than enough' (and that ain't gonna happen). Still, after all this time, piling it on and in - not too particular as to subject, either; just never know when (not if) a selective memory dump of the wetware will come in handy (hasn't failed to, yet).

/fark dreaming, hit the `books' (yeah, off lawn, now) and never stop
//not meant to address the systemic inadequacy of the current parade as it passes - just this farker's never having given a shiat about marching along in it (whether living in a car or working for Ashton-Tate)


Well, we want to replicate the achievements of China and India, and so our educational system says FU to creativity and more to rote memorization. GOOD JOB ON THE STANDARDIZED TEST! Now answer a lateral thinking question/ whoops
 
2012-10-03 02:13:11 AM

Hale-Bopp: He's certainly about that and certainly one other thing. We don't have a revolutionary spirit in this country and the change won't come from our government where it needs to come from. Basically, we're farked.


Weighing into something I know fark-all about (well hey this is Fark), and not commenting on the economics of it at all, in democracies government and the people aren't really different, no matter what politicians try to claim when they're desperate to win votes. On major policy matters, as I think your suggesting is needed here, the solutions are more likely to come from academics, business and community leaders than politicians (preferably all three working together). Historically, the military has also had a role in the US but perhaps are best left out these days.
 
2012-10-03 02:14:29 AM

david_gaithersburg: It will always be a myth for the lazy.



Says another uneducated poor angry conservative troll
 
2012-10-03 02:17:28 AM

GORDON: Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.

A million immigrants are too busy working hard and getting ahead to read the article.


Once they're sent back to Mexico for good, everyone will have a job opportunity (as well as a weight loss opportunity) and the economy will rebound. That done, a large segment of the US population will suddenly become financially secure and attractive enough to fark. This in turn will greatly stimulate the nightclub and sex industry while increasing the demand for party drugs.

The recently deported Latinos will thrive in this environment resulting in a corresponding vast expansion of recreational drug production south of the border. The masses of newly qualified American agricultural laborers will find it more remunerative to pick cannabis for pesos than lettuce for dollars, and will flock to the new dope plantations. This will anger native Latinos who are edged out of jobs by Gringos, and they will demand that working visas be tightly controlled which in turn will result in pushing the work under the table, and there will ensue a lethal hemorrhage of wages back to families in the US.

The already brittle Latin governments will cave under the fiscal pressure and come completely under the thrall of the dope plantations while the US economy will bloom under the double miracle of exporting their unemployment and receiving big, taxable remittances from abroad for zero investment in infrastructure. The DEA will be repurposed to providing security for drug producers (lending a new and gratifying meaning to the phrase, "Drug Enforcement Agency") the Juárez Cartel will gain a seat at the U.N., and 2/3 of the posting members of Fark will find something better to do with their time than crapping at strangers in politics threads.

In short, Utopia.
 
2012-10-03 02:21:14 AM
"His first personal experience with the issue came when, as a young boy, he asked why his nanny wasn't caring for her own children."

The same reason your car mechanic isn't working on his own car, and your doctor isn't operating on himself. They have jobs.
 
2012-10-03 02:21:46 AM
What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!
 
2012-10-03 02:26:01 AM

Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!



I bet you have a lot of negro friends
 
2012-10-03 02:26:22 AM

unyon: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

Good for you. But "the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else"? The evidence doesn't support that.

I assume that we're gauging that on one's ability to be upwardly mobile. Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations. If you want to gauge someone's ability to succeed, the best predictor in the US is actually parental income. If you're truly interested in being the land of opportunity, you'll take your collective heads out of your asses.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x463]


There's a lot going on in income elasticity and it's easy to read too much into it. The greater the wealth disparity, the farther you have to go to change quintile, and the US is near the top in disparity among industrialized nations. Our poor tend to be poorer (thanks to almost no safety net) and our rich tend to be richer.

I'm not saying what the conclusions are from a more complete look at the problem, but simply looking at quintiles isn't enough. Especially since wealth can be created, and the fact you can fall easier in the rest of the world isn't exactly something to brag about.
 
2012-10-03 02:27:02 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


Luck is a huge part. Just knowing what opportunities are available is huge.
 
2012-10-03 02:28:15 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!


I bet you have a lot of negro friends


Of course he does, and he can count the number of times they have been in his house.
 
2012-10-03 02:28:47 AM

DamnYankees: Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.

Bingo. We had a brief period in the years between WWII and Vietnam where both the economy and social freedom was increasing for pretty much everyone. Other than that, the American Dream has always been only partially true for only a part of the population.


People think the game is fixed. It isn't, but neither does it have to be. The table is tilted, and that's enough. I don't know when the rich figured that out, but at some point, the top class realized that just a slight tilt is all it takes to virtually guarantee they stay on top.
 
2012-10-03 02:33:09 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!


I bet you have a lot of negro friends


I think "magic negro" is what his mom called black tar heroin when she was pregnant.
 
2012-10-03 02:33:26 AM

intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: It will always be a myth for the lazy.


Says another uneducated poor angry conservative troll


Awww. You mad lazy bro?
 
2012-10-03 02:34:22 AM

Fano: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!


I bet you have a lot of negro friends

Of course he does, and he can count the number of times they have been in his house.


Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.

It's the truth and you know it.
 
2012-10-03 02:37:45 AM

vygramul: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!


I bet you have a lot of negro friends

I think "magic negro" is what his mom called black tar heroin when she was pregnant.


I you can't make a legitimate point, try to be funny.
 
2012-10-03 02:39:04 AM

ShannonKW: GORDON: Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.

A million immigrants are too busy working hard and getting ahead to read the article.

Once they're sent back to Mexico for good, everyone will have a job opportunity (as well as a weight loss opportunity) and the economy will rebound. That done, a large segment of the US population will suddenly become financially secure and attractive enough to fark. This in turn will greatly stimulate the nightclub and sex industry while increasing the demand for party drugs.

The recently deported Latinos will thrive in this environment resulting in a corresponding vast expansion of recreational drug production south of the border. The masses of newly qualified American agricultural laborers will find it more remunerative to pick cannabis for pesos than lettuce for dollars, and will flock to the new dope plantations. This will anger native Latinos who are edged out of jobs by Gringos, and they will demand that working visas be tightly controlled which in turn will result in pushing the work under the table, and there will ensue a lethal hemorrhage of wages back to families in the US.

The already brittle Latin governments will cave under the fiscal pressure and come completely under the thrall of the dope plantations while the US economy will bloom under the double miracle of exporting their unemployment and receiving big, taxable remittances from abroad for zero investment in infrastructure. The DEA will be repurposed to providing security for drug producers (lending a new and gratifying meaning to the phrase, "Drug Enforcement Agency") the Juárez Cartel will gain a seat at the U.N., and 2/3 of the posting members of Fark will find something better to do with their time than crapping at strangers in politics threads.

In short, Utopia.


8.8/10
 
2012-10-03 02:39:21 AM

Fano: The last time America had a revolutionary spirit, it ended with half the south burned. And those revolutionaries were tards.


I still wouldn't mind starting over, how about you?

Aussie_As: Weighing into something I know fark-all about (well hey this is Fark), and not commenting on the economics of it at all, in democracies government and the people aren't really different, no matter what politicians try to claim when they're desperate to win votes. On major policy matters, as I think your suggesting is needed here, the solutions are more likely to come from academics, business and community leaders than politicians (preferably all three working together). Historically, the military has also had a role in the US but perhaps are best left out these days.


You might be right about that. Where I live, unemployment still hovers around 9%. Various business and community leaders have recently formed a think tank for finding ways to re-stimulate job growth, though it's hard to say yet how well it'll serve the people vs. how well it'll serve themselves. I've heard rumors of bringing in lots of minimum wage factory jobs to make it seem like we're booming with new jobs. Oh boy, let the fun times begin.
 
2012-10-03 02:42:30 AM

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: It will always be a myth for the lazy.


Says another uneducated poor angry conservative troll

Awww. You mad lazy bro?



Exactly. Everyone is poor dumb and lazy except you, the perfect human being.
 
2012-10-03 02:43:09 AM

Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.



What hasn't worked? Go into details.
 
2012-10-03 02:49:22 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.


notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night
 
2012-10-03 02:53:34 AM
In summary: MARKETING, how do it work.
 
2012-10-03 02:55:07 AM

david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night



1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing
 
2012-10-03 02:56:26 AM

sethen320: Oh, ok. Thanks for the intelligent discourse.


And thanks so much to YOU for adding your copious, inane bullshiat to this thread.
 
2012-10-03 02:57:41 AM

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


Oooh, talking points! Tell me more, my computer doesn't get Fox News.
 
2012-10-03 03:02:51 AM

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


Hahaha, you're cute. A complete idiot, but still kinda cute. Go be an ignorant dumbass somewhere else though. Hey, if you'd rather have a psychopathic religious nut who believes in magic underwear leading the country, that's your choice. It is a completely retarded choice that speaks volumes about your own inability to engage in rational and objective thought, but its all yours.
 
2012-10-03 03:09:01 AM
The myth is that hard work or making something worthwhile will get your your American Dream.

The reality is that if you bullsh*t the right people well enough you can become a millionaire - even President if you want! - without ever having produced a thing of value in your life.

Worked for Obama and Bush, and it can work for you, too!
 
2012-10-03 03:09:11 AM

2words1finger: david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night

Hahaha, you're cute. A complete idiot, but still kinda cute. Go be an ignorant dumbass somewhere else though. Hey, if you'd rather have a psychopathic religious nut who believes in magic underwear leading the country, that's your choice. It is a completely retarded choice that speaks volumes about your own inability to engage in rational and objective thought, but its all yours.


You're insane.
 
2012-10-03 03:11:41 AM
Okay, I'll tell you how it works: 1. Create a perceived need. 2. Profit.

One of the biggest problems in our current social structure is the inability to distinguish between NEEDS and WANTS. Worldwide - our society has tainted almost everyone.
 
2012-10-03 03:13:51 AM

intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing


I agree with all of these points. In my part of the world, the economic stimulus focussed on building school facilities. There were a few examples of unfortunate rip-offs but mostly it delivered decent community infrastructure and kept the building industry from disappearing. The government here toyed with a cash for clunkers scheme idea but realised it just would have sent a lot of money off-shore rather than assist local manufacturing.

Our currency was floated in the early 80's, and this has probably been the biggest and best economic reform in Australia in the last 50 years. Our dollar settled at around US$0.60 to US$0.70 in the early nineties, then when Asia had a meltdown in the late 90's (which usually would have had a massive impact in Australia), our dollar fell further (below US$0.50 for a while) and our exporters found new markets in Europe and the Americas. Unemployment was not the problem it usually would have been, and as our trading partners recovered our unemployment rate fell to levels not seen in over a generation. Even now, although times are tougher since 2007, unemployment is not a big issue.

This wouldn't work in the US though. The economy is too big to cope with all of the effects which come from having a dollar which can halve and then double in value in the course of a decade, as ours has done.
 
2012-10-03 03:14:19 AM

intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing


1-It cost what, $200K per car, and all it did for industry was shift demand
2-Yeah, paying $3 for a gallon of milk, and $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.
3-wut?
4-bwahahaha!
 
2012-10-03 03:15:26 AM

Aussie_As: In my part of the world, the economic stimulus focussed on building school facilities. There were a few examples of unfortunate rip-offs but mostly it delivered decent community infrastructure and kept the building industry from disappearing



Republicans blocked this legislation
 
2012-10-03 03:21:44 AM
Such desperate arguments reminds me off....


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
kab
2012-10-03 03:22:33 AM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Done in four.
 
2012-10-03 03:25:52 AM

NewportBarGuy: 3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright.


Me too.

Then I was laid off. Dwindling savings. Probably going to lose my home and everything I've worked hard for, if I can't fix this.

Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.
 
2012-10-03 03:32:02 AM

bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.


Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...
 
2012-10-03 03:38:24 AM

WhyteRaven74: NewportBarGuy: I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now

Right now, at this moment? No. But over the last 30 years? They've seen wage growth, while the US really hasn't.


We are not really seeing that much, at least not here in France. Most people don't get enough of a raise to beat inflation.
That and the idea that the socialist party that is now in power here, won partly on promises to raise taxes on the rich. the first taxes they raised were on cigarettes and beer, which predominately affect the poor.
/not alcohol BEER!
 
2012-10-03 03:39:12 AM

2words1finger: Also, future generations will look back on American-style "free market capitalism" as a failed economic experiment. Experience has shown us that it simply does not work, because it is structurally incapable of mitigating the factor of human greed while it rewards those with genuine psychopathic tendencies - particularly the lack of empathy - with success that comes at the expense of others.


You'll always have psychopaths. The economy is a better way to funnel their tendencies than war.
 
2012-10-03 03:40:09 AM

bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.


Solid advice.
 
2012-10-03 03:41:12 AM
money movement will be the killer. As more wealth concentrates in fewer hands there is less money movement. Less money moving means economies flatten out if not stagnate. Sooner or later something has to give if the money stagnates.. usually its the heads of the elite rich that get that money moving again.
 
2012-10-03 03:49:13 AM

david_gaithersburg: $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.


Where the hell are you getting coffee that expensive? If you mean brewed coffee, even a venti at Starbucks is under $3, and if you regular coffee, you can get it for about $8 lb. Also, you realize the government doesn't exactly control inflation and exchange rates right?
 
2012-10-03 03:54:41 AM
I think the American dream has changed.

Post wwII it was to own a plot of land and drive a decent car in an upper middle class neighborhood, maybe have a comfortable and solid career that made enough.

Now it is defined as owning a mini-mansion in a up-and-coming section of town, and becoming a multi-millionare.

Now that many of the jobs that allowed the post wwii vision are gone all that is left is the mythology of becoming that multi-millionare.
 
2012-10-03 03:58:14 AM

david_gaithersburg: 1-It cost what, $200K per car, and all it did for industry was shift demand
2-Yeah, paying $3 for a gallon of milk, and $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.
3-wut?
4-bwahahaha!



Just as I thought, straight to the discredited a million times talking points

1) For starters I like how you claim this was an 0bama program, second, to give a hurting industry sales and better efficient cars on the road, it was worth it
2) do you have any idea why you pay that much? hint it's because of rising food and energy prices and zero to do with "devaluing the dollar"
3) "real inflation" is a great RON PAUL talking point, based on fantasy but a great one
4) I'm sure you have facts that discredit the CBO
 
2012-10-03 03:58:58 AM

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...


Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Solid advice.



sounds legit
 
2012-10-03 04:13:33 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Solid advice.


sounds legit


I know, RIGHT!?
 
2012-10-03 04:20:01 AM
Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.
 
2012-10-03 04:25:33 AM
"The American Dream" was always a myth/marketing-slogan. It's just that people have stopped falling for it.
 
2012-10-03 04:26:50 AM

Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?



So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?
 
2012-10-03 04:42:29 AM
I'd love to see the economy you people are talking about where money confers no advantage. Of course it's going to be more difficult when you start with less. There are more people with less, here, because the way we redistribute wealth has somehow gotten completely twisted, and you don't accumulate riskable capital until you're well into middle class already.
 
2012-10-03 04:43:05 AM
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7360499/79770271#c79770271" target="_blank">Poo_Fight</a>:</b> <i>

I know, RIGHT!?</i>

<drink>
 
2012-10-03 04:44:54 AM

Buffet: Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.


That would be no one, because Hell was a mythical story invented to keep people in a state of perpetual fear and willing to sacrifice 10% of their gross income and fight unjust wars because white men who wear really nice ties tell them to.
 
2012-10-03 05:03:16 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?


So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?


I'm glad your User name is intelligent comment below because there never seems to be an intelligent comment ABOVE when you post.
 
2012-10-03 05:04:04 AM

Fano: but what matters most are an individual's life chances


Well? Which is it? Societal trends that work at a class level, or "life chances" that work at an individual level?

No wonder economics isn't considered a hard science.
 
2012-10-03 05:12:17 AM

fredbox: Buffet: Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.

That would be no one, because Hell was a mythical story invented to keep people in a state of perpetual fear and willing to sacrifice 10% of their gross income and fight unjust wars because white men who wear really nice ties tell them to.


You mean like the mythical story about how republicans want to abolish Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? Or like the mythical story that if you vote for a man out of guilt who has a certain skin color and absolutely NO experience, he can save us from the terrible path we've been on for the last thirty years?...Or like that mythical story about the one silver spoon liberal Massachusetts white broad running for congress who lied and pretended to be a native American?...

Do tell.

I VOTED FOR THAT ONE MINORITY!!! I am ABSOLVED!!!!!!
 
2012-10-03 05:38:42 AM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?


So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?


Exactly.

Poo_Flinger is just somebody's threadshiatting troll alt. Into the ignore bin it goes.
 
2012-10-03 05:41:48 AM
If we, say, disbanded the Department of Homeland Redundancy and spent the savings on education, we might have a start.
 
2012-10-03 06:09:55 AM

ladyfortuna: As much as I like you, I can't help but think you've got some blinders on. Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day.


Dont you have the same freedom not to "give a rat's ass" about your company as an employee? Today, the days of private security holding you at the door of a company and forcing you back to the line were gone about 130 years ago. For most companies, it costs a few grand in OT and HR costs to bring someone new in.

2words1finger: It is that "I've got mine, screw everybody else" attitude that is necessary for real success in the free-market system. I don't know about you, but I don't like, and will fight against to my last breath, a business culture that rewards those who care the least about whose throat they have to slit open to get ahead.


If only you had a government that protected people's property and rights. A corporation can only offer you a product you're not forced to buy or a job you're not forced to work. Nowadays, most of the "throat slitting" i see comes from business owners who are connected to government and find it easier to keep their product on the shelves by buying a few congressmen to keep the laws in their favor. than in competing in the marketplace.

intelligent comment below: 2) do you have any idea why you pay that much? hint it's because of rising food and energy prices and zero to do with "devaluing the dollar"


Food and energy are hard commodities whose worth can be measured against the dollar. When the price of those items goes up, it requires more dollars to buy them due to either shortages in food/energy supply or an overabundance in the money supply. The president says that we're drilling everywhere we possibly can so why is gas at a historic high?

The CBO bases inflation on a weighted system of price scales, putting more weight on some categories and less on others in order to make their calculations seem more friendly to the Fed. Housing is still bleeding so that is why the inflation numbers you see are still somewhat low. Food, energy, rents, college and healthcare costs are all through the roof. Money itself has no value, it is simply a token or marker which is supposed to represent something between points of exchange i.e. an hour of labor, a loaf of bread, gallon of milk, etc. Increasing the money supply only serves to raise prices which destroys savings - another component of inflation - which is at an all time low.

Something to take with you: When prices rise, the dollar is not worth as much as it requires more dollars to buy the product. When this happens across many economic sectors (savings included) and especially those which low and middle income people depend on, you have inflation
 
2012-10-03 06:24:33 AM
what the HELL is an American dream??? is it something like an Americone dream. or something more sweet.
that involves infinite free money
 
2012-10-03 06:39:27 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


I too got dealt the good luck card, despite having broke-ass parents. Pair that with just a little hard work and things are nice :)
 
2012-10-03 07:04:34 AM

bmihura: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

I too got dealt the good luck card, despite having broke-ass parents. Pair that with just a little hard work and things are nice :)


Luck + hard work = success.

No luck + hard work = waste of effort, or subsistence.

I think I found your independent variable for you.
 
2012-10-03 07:08:00 AM
Stiglitz? Spiegel? Bullshiat? Yes!

Inequality in the US has grown for two reasons: globalization and immigration. Both increase the supply of low skill labor, driving down prices and resulting in a worse outcome for existing low skill labor.

You can argue that we should curtail globalization and immigration to raise the price of labor in the US, but be aware that a) such a policy will result in higher prices for everything, as opposed to the very benign inflation we've seen over the last 25 years, and b) non-American low skill labor (in countries that have recently industrialized and immigrants) will be harmed.
 
2012-10-03 07:09:59 AM

Guntram Shatterhand: You know what the real biatch of this is?

For years the American Dream has been pushed as an ideal. People would go into debt to find that slice of happiness that they've always been promised, the sense of final dramatic victory over the world in the form of financial security and 'independence.' But it's always been a way to create a slave class that can't move, can't do what they want, and have social pressures causing them to conform.

Americans know shiat about freedom. Freedom is scary: you're totally responsible for yourself, you can't shift the blame, and you have to make hard choices. Freedom isn't something you chant as a thought-terminating cliche, it's the power to do what you want. But it takes a lot of fortitude and honesty to do that. And to be honest, freedom isn't as freeing as it sounds. It takes work, and it's certainly not a house designed to create a tax base held hostage by a shifting economy that is controlled by the 1%.

The totality of American life today is essentially extortion via a greatly exaggerated form of responsibility. How much freedom does one have when forced to beg for bare subsistence while those with much taunt you and curse you for the results of their actions? But Americans like delusion, and we love the idea of freedom being some shiny pillar that we know absolutely farking nothing about. We love the chant, and that's where it really ends. We are the first to point out how much American life sucks yet do nothing about it. We've been beaten down. We're essentially the lambs born right onto a griddle. And we brag about it like it's something to be proud of, like working ourselves to death is somehow a noble thing.

The latest economic downturn should reveal one thing to Americans at large: that we're not free. We're far from it. And it's a systemic problem that we really need to dig deep down about. This isn't a problem that overthrowing a government or playing right-wing commando with a bunch of cheap guns can resolve. This is how we deal with the dead-end philosophy that America has come to accept as 'freedom.' How do we react to the reality of freedom when we use responsibility as a form of slut shaming? Our country is broken, and it's not just in an economic sense. The foundations of American thought are, at their heart, really rotten and needlessly vile and competitive. Exactly why is simple subsistence a moral failing again? And what kind of awful people thinks that way?

All I can say right now is that when you really have time to examine American life as an outsider--as an unemployed person who is detached from that Dream--a lot of things become very clear very quickly. And I don't see many Americans going back to the Dream once the economy sorts itself out. It's hard to measure consumer confidence when you're one write-up away from being excluded from a Dream that, at its heart, is Yet Another Marketing Tool, and just as hollow.


I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...
 
2012-10-03 07:45:04 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


No, we won't. We never had 16 trillion in debt. We never had 50% of American workers paying no taxes. We never had entire generations of kids who are liberal and think working is not fair. We are screwed.

Obama gets another term, we will be at 22 trillion in debt by the end of that one. That is some serious interest payments alone.
 
2012-10-03 07:47:55 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Inequality in the US has grown for two reasons: globalization and immigration. Both increase the supply of low skill labor, driving down prices and resulting in a worse outcome for existing low skill labor.


"Just blame it on the guy who doesn't speak English."

-- Homer Simpson
 
2012-10-03 07:50:34 AM

jaybeezey: I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...


Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski! Stay out of Malibu, dead beat!
 
2012-10-03 07:54:15 AM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats [who couldn't get their way in Europe] who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Inserted for additional clarity.
 
2012-10-03 08:01:11 AM

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...


Don't assume that because that's why you hate him, it's why we like him.
 
2012-10-03 08:01:24 AM

Thunderpipes: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

No, we won't. We never had 16 trillion in debt. We never had 50% of American workers paying no taxes. We never had entire generations of kids who are liberal and think working is not fair. We are screwed.

Obama gets another term, we will be at 22 trillion in debt by the end of that one. That is some serious interest payments alone.


You still don't.
 
2012-10-03 08:07:18 AM

Aussie_As: intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing

I agree with all of these points. In my part of the world, the economic stimulus focussed on building school facilities. There were a few examples of unfortunate rip-offs but mostly it delivered decent community infrastructure and kept the building industry from disappearing. The government here toyed with a cash for clunkers scheme idea but realised it just would have sent a lot of money off-shore rather than assist local manufacturing.

Our currency was floated in the early 80's, and this has probably been the biggest and best economic reform in Australia in the last 50 years. Our dollar settled at around US$0.60 to US$0.70 in the early nineties, then when Asia had a meltdown in the late 90's (which usually would have had a massive impact in Australia), our dollar fell further (below US$0.50 for a while) and our exporters found new markets in Europe and the Americas. Unemployment was not the problem it usually would have been, and as our trading partners recovered our unemployment rate fell to levels not seen in over a generation. Even now, although times are tougher since 2007, unemployment is not a big issue.

This wouldn't work in the US though. The economy is too big to cope with all of the effects which come from having a dollar which can halve and then double in value in the course of a decade, as ours has done.


Hey if you want to be taxed out the ass to fund healthcare for lazy/illegals spread your cheeks all day. I prefer to keep the money I work for (such as it's worth now thanks to the king). They want insurance, it's called A JOB...novel idea huh?

Obama knows how to run a government like my dead grandma knows how to drive
 
2012-10-03 08:27:42 AM
white people problems, hah!
 
2012-10-03 08:39:59 AM
Huh, that's funny because I've gone to school (graduated from the CIA with a BPS in Culinary Arts Management), worked hard (15 years in restaurants and now 2 in private schools), got married, have two cars, just bought a house in a nice neighborhood with lots of kids playing in the yards and on the street, and am planning to have kids of my own in a year or two, oh, and we have a cat and are adopting a greyhound this year.

So, that's an education, a wife, a house, two cars, a big yard in a nice neighborhood with some pets and a few kids on the way.

Now, before the accusations of me being the exception to the rule. I live near DC, my wife and I make what would be considered very, very modest incomes for the DC Metro area, and it took me about 5 years longer than I expected to reach this point, but we did. And we know plenty of other people who are doing the same thing. Did I have my problems financially when I was younger? You betcha! Was in over my head with credit card debt at one point, but I set up a payment plan, lived frugally for 4 years and paid it off. It's not a "dream" as some are claiming, it's a goal, and you have to work at it. It doesn't just come because you want it, you have to work for it, and I think that's what a lot of people have forgotten in the past few decades.
 
2012-10-03 08:43:48 AM

skyn_floote: [we read this already...]
Hey if you want to be taxed out the ass to fund healthcare for lazy/illegals spread your cheeks all day. I prefer to keep the money I work for (such as it's worth now thanks to the king) ...


As long as you're good with us laughing and pointing at you when you get sick and have to spend all that money, and sell all your stuff to get better.
 
2012-10-03 08:59:47 AM
Um, yeah, like since the 1980's where the fark has this guy been.
 
2012-10-03 09:04:41 AM
For quitters and lazy bastards
 
2012-10-03 09:07:03 AM

skyn_floote: Aussie_As: intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

....

Hey if you want to be taxed out the ass to fund healthcare for lazy/illegals spread your cheeks all day. I prefer to keep the money I work for (such as it's worth now thanks to the king). They want insurance, it's called A JOB...novel idea huh?

Obama knows how to run a government like my dead grandma knows how to drive


I can't speak for US healthcare, but the Australian publicly funded medicare system is excellent. I broke my arm one sunday afternoon a couple of years ago, was X-rayed same afternoon, admitted to a hospital 6 miles from my house, operated on at 8am the following day and was back at work less than two days after that. The benefit of public health care vs private is that it's cheaper because consumers of private health care are much more likely to demand shiat for their contributions (eg unnecessary dental work, top quality scans when cheaper ones would likely achieve the same result etc). There is a private insurance system here which provides these benefits to those who demand them, but they have to pay twice in effect.

As I understand the "Obamacare" system (and I barely do) it's still a largely private system. I think that's going to end in tears. But I don't pretend to know the details.
 
2012-10-03 09:21:42 AM

sethen320: Coelacanth: Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.
Leave.


I'd love to. Just as soon as I can find enough work to save enough money to try to get another job in another country.........Hang on a minute. I'm having trouble finding a job here.
 
2012-10-03 09:28:39 AM

unyon: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.

Good for you. But "the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else"? The evidence doesn't support that.

I assume that we're gauging that on one's ability to be upwardly mobile. Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations. If you want to gauge someone's ability to succeed, the best predictor in the US is actually parental income. If you're truly interested in being the land of opportunity, you'll take your collective heads out of your asses.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x463]


That moment when you link a graph that disproves your post.
 
2012-10-03 09:53:28 AM
4 step plan to fix america

1. tax on all currency exports of 10-15% (5x number designated in step 3)
2. sunset all current taxes, income, sales, payroll etc
3. tax all property at a rate of 2-3% annually, including intellectual property protected by the US government, and the value of all "investment vehicles" like stocks, bonds, bank accounts, etc. This rate would be set to be revenue neutral with the current tax system.
4. pass constitutional amendment that no government entity on any level may use non-tax sources to fund itself
4.a. put all fines, fees, and seizure auction revenue into a segregated account and distribute it equally to all citizens

What this will accomplish:

It is a fundamentally more fair way to pay for government. Those who use more of the government's primary function to protect property rights are the ones who pay the most. There would be no loopholes as someone always has to own property. Corporations and wealthy individuals couldn't get out of it because they would be taxed based on what they owned, not on what they made.

The current level of corruption in the federal government where corporations can buy favorable tax provisions would cease. And with step 4 it would prevent corruption on the local and state level where law enforcement is currently being used as a revenue tool. And finally it would take power away from politicians and special interests so they couldn't use taxes to control behavior, which is inimical to a free society.

The one issue I see is with food production where the value of the crops is significantly less than the value of the land. And one potential solution I see is that the tax is deferred as long as a farm is being operated by an immediate family member of the owner. If the land is sold, to a developer for example, the tax bill comes due.
 
2012-10-03 09:59:47 AM
I know I'm an atypical anecdote... but it does happen here and there. And I'm not talking about rags to riches... just rags to comfy middle class.

But yeah... it's rare anymore. I'm 35 and of my contemporaries from high school, I'm one of three outliers who bettered their economic class. One middle class girl married into royalty (uh... you go girl?), one white trash girl worked hard and became a lawyer, and I was the white trash guy that made it into programming. Both of us white trashers grew up damn poor and were the first in either family to earn a degree of any kind.

Everyone else from high school seems to be in the economic class into which they were born: poor or middle class.
 
2012-10-03 10:10:20 AM
I've found a couple of things to be true about my peers (I'm mid 30s). 1) they don't do an ounce more than the have to. 2) they are too good to do a lot of jobs and would prefer to sit on thier ass and whine about how they can't find a job. They generally need somebody to draw them directions in crayon before they can accomplish anything. In 2004 - 2008 I worked an average of 340 days per year - 12 hr days. Every jackass I know said "I wouldn't do that, it's stupid". This led to my current position and now they all say " it must be nice, wish I could get lucky". The only answer i have for that is to go fark yourself. If the American dream were alive I'd be set for life, but I'm not. shiat happens and you gotta be ready for it. But there is no law saying you have to have a job that fits your requirements. There is also no law saying I won't be shoveling shiat in 6 months, but that's life.

Success is possible. Getting there is a biatch and staying there can be a bigger biatch. It's not a farking dream by any means.
 
2012-10-03 10:31:54 AM

Poo_Fight: vygramul: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: What? The magic negro was supposed to fix all this. Right? Right?!


I bet you have a lot of negro friends

I think "magic negro" is what his mom called black tar heroin when she was pregnant.

I you can't make a legitimate point, try to be funny.


You mean like making references to "magic negro"?
 
2012-10-03 10:57:16 AM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.


Apart from most of Europe. So yeah, you're full of bullshiat, good call.

And wtf., you're praising a system that requires intelligence and luck? Yeah, because fark people who aren't smarter than average, and yeah, because who cares if you're smart and hard working, if you didn´t roll a nat 20, you deserved it, some how.
 
2012-10-03 11:15:20 AM

spawn73: NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

Apart from most of Europe. So yeah, you're full of bullshiat, good call.

And wtf., you're praising a system that requires intelligence and luck? Yeah, because fark people who aren't smarter than average, and yeah, because who cares if you're smart and hard working, if you didn´t roll a nat 20, you deserved it, some how.


Well, hard work should get you somewhere, but stupidity should not be a non-factor. I'd prefer we be closer to Europe to help those who are struggling, but I'm not prepared to subscribe to the notion that there's more opportunity in Europe. The single biggest obstacle to making it here is our education system.

What I find most interesting about Europe's social volatility is how much easier it is to drop. (It's a zero-sum game, determining which quintile someone's in, so if people can move up easier, they can also move down easier.)
 
2012-10-03 11:18:46 AM

RockofAges: Luck + hard work = success.

No luck + hard work = waste of effort, or subsistence.

I think I found your independent variable for you.


Very good. Except that we're not talking about a binary state but a gradient.

Luck should be mitigated as much as possible, though.
 
2012-10-03 11:55:35 AM
Very good.

Except for that we're actually talking about how much of a binary state our current economic slate has become due to vast income inequality.

As someone with a fairly advanced education, I'm quite well aware of the difference between absolute states and states placed on a continuum (my preferential array rather than binary / gradient which I consider to be too sterile). As a postmodernist living in a postmodern world, I think you would find it almost impossible to argue many absolute or binary states in the almost entirely subjective realm of human affairs and human creations (to which the economy and all economic theory belongs).

Not to suggest a Kuhnian interpretation, but there it is.

I wasn't being comprehensive, but rather incisive and making the point without belaboring the semantic details too, too much.

Yes, it's almost binary now. And that's the goddamn problem.
 
2012-10-03 01:16:38 PM

wildcardjack: What was the dream? Grow up, get a job, get married, have 2 or 3 kids, buy a house, get old and die.

Yeah, that really sounds like a dream.

/My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.


The Dream was to grow up, get a job, get married, have kids, the wife stays home and takes care of the kids, the husband goes to work and they save up money for vacations, retirement and the kids to go to college.

Nowadays, for the average American family, both parents have to continue to work, vacations are pretty few, retirement is a joke and the kids have to get college loans.
 
2012-10-03 01:58:18 PM
Nonsense, the US is still a great place to thrive, just make sure you are in the top 10% of talent and learned skills group.
 
2012-10-03 02:43:16 PM

cryinoutloud: sethen320: Coelacanth: Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.
Leave.

I'd love to. Just as soon as I can find enough work to save enough money to try to get another job in another country.........Hang on a minute. I'm having trouble finding a job here.


If I could get back the money that my family and I paid in taxes for farking services that were never rendered, I'd leave in a heartbeat. Fark, my family donated most of the land that is now Griffith Park to the city of Los Angeles. I'd farking like that back too because my aunt who authorized that deal was operating under a diminished capacity.
 
2012-10-03 04:11:43 PM

Poo_Fight: I'm glad your User name is intelligent comment below because there never seems to be an intelligent comment ABOVE when you post.



You're so witty, did you think of that all yourself?
 
2012-10-03 04:13:42 PM

skyn_floote: Hey if you want to be taxed out the ass to fund healthcare for lazy/illegals spread your cheeks all day. I prefer to keep the money I work for (such as it's worth now thanks to the king). They want insurance, it's called A JOB...novel idea huh?

Obama knows how to run a government like my dead grandma knows how to drive



Many jobs do not give health care to their employees, and plans are too expensive for most families.

You are taxed at rates that are the lowest they've been in over 50 years.

Your dead grandma is still smarter than you
 
2012-10-03 04:15:21 PM

o5iiawah: The president says that we're drilling everywhere we possibly can so why is gas at a historic high?



Because the price isn't based on supply and demand. Demand in America continues to go down, domestic production goes up. Yet prices are set by cartels like OPEC and speculators.

This is the proof you idiots have that the dollar weakening is bad and 0bama's fault for high prices?
 
2012-10-03 04:16:03 PM

RockofAges: Very good.

Except for that we're actually talking about how much of a binary state our current economic slate has become due to vast income inequality.

As someone with a fairly advanced education, I'm quite well aware of the difference between absolute states and states placed on a continuum (my preferential array rather than binary / gradient which I consider to be too sterile). As a postmodernist living in a postmodern world, I think you would find it almost impossible to argue many absolute or binary states in the almost entirely subjective realm of human affairs and human creations (to which the economy and all economic theory belongs).

Not to suggest a Kuhnian interpretation, but there it is.

I wasn't being comprehensive, but rather incisive and making the point without belaboring the semantic details too, too much.

Yes, it's almost binary now. And that's the goddamn problem.


I think that we probably more agree than disagree, in which case.
 
2012-10-03 04:18:31 PM

intelligent comment below: skyn_floote: Hey if you want to be taxed out the ass to fund healthcare for lazy/illegals spread your cheeks all day. I prefer to keep the money I work for (such as it's worth now thanks to the king). They want insurance, it's called A JOB...novel idea huh?

Obama knows how to run a government like my dead grandma knows how to drive


Many jobs do not give health care to their employees, and plans are too expensive for most families.

You are taxed at rates that are the lowest they've been in over 50 years.

Your dead grandma is still smarter than you


No shiat. I love the people who are whining about taxes when they're not paying any more than they were 8 years ago, and less than they were paying in 2001 or before.

But people believe what they WANT to believe, facts be damned. Obama is a socialist, so we MUST be paying more. We just MUST be. Obamacare is a tax, so therefore, even though I've had health insurance for the last 20 years, I MUST be paying an additional tax now. I just MUST be.
 
2012-10-03 04:19:05 PM

Lagaidh: I know I'm an atypical anecdote... but it does happen here and there. And I'm not talking about rags to riches... just rags to comfy middle class.


tallen702: Now, before the accusations of me being the exception to the rule. I live near DC, my wife and I make what would be considered very, very modest incomes for the DC Metro area



Neither of you are living the American dream. Both of you are one missing paycheck away from a homeless shelter. That's the point Stiglitz is making. Your jobs are not steady income, your expenses on things like health care are through the roof, and if something happened you would be in deep trouble. Not to mention you going to college in the first place to get to where you are now is unobtainable for a large percentage of the population.
 
2012-10-03 04:19:37 PM

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: I'm glad your User name is intelligent comment below because there never seems to be an intelligent comment ABOVE when you post.


You're so witty, did you think of that all yourself?


The finny thing is that I don't think he thought his wittiness all the way through.
 
2012-10-03 04:20:50 PM

intelligent comment below: Lagaidh: I know I'm an atypical anecdote... but it does happen here and there. And I'm not talking about rags to riches... just rags to comfy middle class.

tallen702: Now, before the accusations of me being the exception to the rule. I live near DC, my wife and I make what would be considered very, very modest incomes for the DC Metro area


Neither of you are living the American dream. Both of you are one missing paycheck away from a homeless shelter. That's the point Stiglitz is making. Your jobs are not steady income, your expenses on things like health care are through the roof, and if something happened you would be in deep trouble. Not to mention you going to college in the first place to get to where you are now is unobtainable for a large percentage of the population.


Yeah - I think people forget that mortgages came from banks saying you can put the American Dream on layaway - not that the mortgage is the American Dream.
 
2012-10-03 05:23:12 PM

intelligent comment below: Lagaidh: I know I'm an atypical anecdote... but it does happen here and there. And I'm not talking about rags to riches... just rags to comfy middle class.

tallen702: Now, before the accusations of me being the exception to the rule. I live near DC, my wife and I make what would be considered very, very modest incomes for the DC Metro area


Neither of you are living the American dream. Both of you are one missing paycheck away from a homeless shelter. That's the point Stiglitz is making. Your jobs are not steady income, your expenses on things like health care are through the roof, and if something happened you would be in deep trouble. Not to mention you going to college in the first place to get to where you are now is unobtainable for a large percentage of the population.


See, I marked your comment as "funny" because your assumptions are just that, really funny. Try 1 year with $0 income before we start getting into trouble. If we were to both lose our jobs and have to go on unemployment, that'd stretch out even further. Here's the difference between us, and those who aren't attaining the same standard of living.

1) We both learned from mistakes we made early on. Her in college, me in my immediate post college years. She had a freeloading boyfriend, I made stupid credit decisions, we payed for those mistakes and learned not to repeat them
2) We both lived below our means for 5-8 years to save up for those things we wanted to buy down the road, like nice cars and a house that sits on an acre.
3) I chose an industry which will always reward hard work and creativity. She chose an industry which has rewarding work but pays jack crap (the arts) I've remained in my industry but sought better hours (hence the move to private schools. 2 paid months off in the summer is AWESOME when you're an adult). She realized she'd never make the money she wanted/needed to make to achieve our personal goals at her old job, so she switched industries. Her work is still rewarding and she makes far better money doing less work (she too is now in the private school industry). She has a masters in arts management, but is working as an administrative assistant because it pays better and she too, gets lots of time off.
4) Our incomes are most definitely steady. I can count on at least 3% each year because I do everything required of me. She too can expect at least that, even in a recession.
5) The American dream of working hard to achieve success isn't just about "hard work" it's about being in the right place at the right time with the right idea and right skills. And being flexible enough to adapt to changing situations so that you can take advantage of those places, times, and skills. It applied to Carnegie, Packer, Morgan, Vanderbilt, Edison, Gates, Jobs, etc.

I'm not arguing that the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger and bigger, that most certainly is true, but the American dream is alive and well, you just have to fight for it, Our grandparents did, their parents did, etc. etc. Be it by working 2 jobs and living in a tenement to give your kids opportunities you didn't have in your home country, or scrambling to get that promotion so you could buy a house in the suburbs. It's always required something other than sitting back and expecting it to come to you like so many people today think it should. My parents were the only generation that had that opportunity, and that's not the American dream.
 
2012-10-03 08:02:19 PM

fatassbastard: There's a house on the way to my friend's parents' place where we have our jam space. Big, brand new place on 5 acres. Guy's a Mexican immigrant who eventually started his own landscaping company, and now has this place to raise his family in.

How is that not the farking American Dream?

I have a job, make a decent wage, pay my mortgage and car payment, save a little money and have a beer with friends now and then. I'm more or less in control of my own destiny.

How is that not the farking American Dream?

Jesus Christ, you guys...


Control of your own destiny is an illusion.
 
2012-10-03 09:07:01 PM

tallen702: Try 1 year with $0 income before we start getting into trouble. If we were to both lose our jobs and have to go on unemployment, that'd stretch out even further. Here's the difference between us, and those who aren't attaining the same standard of living.



So what happens if your wife develops cancer, her insurance drops her... then what? My friend had a daughter born with a heart defect, without an insurance plan covering the countless procedures, hospital stays and medication, they would have no money at all.

I just pointed out how volatile your situation actually is and how the odds are stacked against everyone, including you. Yet you still claimed to have "made it" when you have no idea what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years just like a tech person working in the 1990's thought their good life would last forever
 
2012-10-03 09:21:11 PM

intelligent comment below: So what happens if your wife develops cancer, her insurance drops her... then what?


Then my ensuing lawsuit against the insurance company will pay for both her cancer treatment and a new Ferrari or two for me.

I just pointed out how volatile your situation actually is and how the odds are stacked against everyone, including you. Yet you still claimed to have "made it" when you have no idea what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years just like a tech person working in the 1990's thought their good life would last forever

What some random dumbass with a Netware certification thought in the 1990s doesn't seem relevant to my own future, or that of my family.
 
2012-10-03 09:42:55 PM
i172.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-03 09:47:41 PM

intelligent comment below: tallen702: Try 1 year with $0 income before we start getting into trouble. If we were to both lose our jobs and have to go on unemployment, that'd stretch out even further. Here's the difference between us, and those who aren't attaining the same standard of living.


So what happens if your wife develops cancer, her insurance drops her... then what? My friend had a daughter born with a heart defect, without an insurance plan covering the countless procedures, hospital stays and medication, they would have no money at all.

I just pointed out how volatile your situation actually is and how the odds are stacked against everyone, including you. Yet you still claimed to have "made it" when you have no idea what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years just like a tech person working in the 1990's thought their good life would last forever


I think you need to read up on the recent healthcare legislation considering that insurance can no longer drop you while you are sick. So your point is moot on that first bit. As for what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years, everyone's got to eat and fewer and fewer of you out there know how to cook for yourselves. Not to mention the fact that my knowledge goes far beyond cooking. Within the food and ag industries (which are closely linked) there are so many positions it'd make your head spin, and you can get into just about any of them so long as you have the knowledge you gain in my line of work.

Again, flexibility. Tech jobs sure as hell don't have it. Got your Red Hat Cert? Good for you, but we need MSCEs. What's that? You know Perl? That's fantastic, but we need someone who knows how to code using the .net framework. My career path, flexible, tech career path, rigid. Specialization can get you a bunch of money if you're in the right field at the right time, but having the ability to be flexible pays more constant dividends in the long run.

Case in point. I've lost my job in my industry twice. First time, it took me less than two weeks to get hired on at better pay. That was back in 2006. The second time was just last summer, in the middle of the recession where it supposedly takes 30 interviews to get hired these days. I was out for just 4 weeks. What's more, I had to actually turn down offers. One was a sales management position with a large broadline food distributor. Another was as exec chef at a well known resort in my area, and then there was the offer I took, which (funny enough) was the lowest paying, but provided better hours and quality of life.

I don't know how else to tell you, but yes, yes I am living the American dream. Yes, I do have money in savings, Yes I am putting money away for retirement. Yes I do have fantastic health insurance. Yes I do have the house, the cars, and soon the two and a half kids. And yes, emphatically yes, my wife and I both earned it all by working hard, being smart with our money and our choices, and being flexible enough to not only recognize opportunities when the arise, but to grab them and run with it.

I'm not saying everyone can do it. If they could, we'd be in a perfect Leave it to Beaver sitcom world. We certainly haven't done the current post-college generation much good by not explaining what it takes to get there.
 
2012-10-04 08:25:38 AM

tallen702: intelligent comment below: tallen702: Try 1 year with $0 income before we start getting into trouble. If we were to both lose our jobs and have to go on unemployment, that'd stretch out even further. Here's the difference between us, and those who aren't attaining the same standard of living.


So what happens if your wife develops cancer, her insurance drops her... then what? My friend had a daughter born with a heart defect, without an insurance plan covering the countless procedures, hospital stays and medication, they would have no money at all.

I just pointed out how volatile your situation actually is and how the odds are stacked against everyone, including you. Yet you still claimed to have "made it" when you have no idea what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years just like a tech person working in the 1990's thought their good life would last forever

I think you need to read up on the recent healthcare legislation considering that insurance can no longer drop you while you are sick. So your point is moot on that first bit. As for what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years, everyone's got to eat and fewer and fewer of you out there know how to cook for yourselves. Not to mention the fact that my knowledge goes far beyond cooking. Within the food and ag industries (which are closely linked) there are so many positions it'd make your head spin, and you can get into just about any of them so long as you have the knowledge you gain in my line of work.

Again, flexibility. Tech jobs sure as hell don't have it. Got your Red Hat Cert? Good for you, but we need MSCEs. What's that? You know Perl? That's fantastic, but we need someone who knows how to code using the .net framework. My career path, flexible, tech career path, rigid. Specialization can get you a bunch of money if you're in the right field at the right time, but having the ability to be flexible pays more constant dividends in the long run.

Case in point. I've lost my job in my industry twice. First time, it t ...


Yea, it takes a booming superstructure which reinvests in the working and middle classes and a great deal of good old fashioned luck.

Oh, and also, hard work helps. But only in conjunction with the previous two, from which the majority of your success derives.

Chalking it up to your own personal "amazing work ethic" (trust me, actually most people are hard workers, even those "lowly McDonalds employees" who aren't as "successful" as you are) is narcissistic and myopic.

Which embodies the American Reality, rather than the illusory, flagsucking dream.
 
2012-10-04 09:43:57 AM

RockofAges: tallen702: intelligent comment below: tallen702: Try 1 year with $0 income before we start getting into trouble. If we were to both lose our jobs and have to go on unemployment, that'd stretch out even further. Here's the difference between us, and those who aren't attaining the same standard of living.


So what happens if your wife develops cancer, her insurance drops her... then what? My friend had a daughter born with a heart defect, without an insurance plan covering the countless procedures, hospital stays and medication, they would have no money at all.

I just pointed out how volatile your situation actually is and how the odds are stacked against everyone, including you. Yet you still claimed to have "made it" when you have no idea what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years just like a tech person working in the 1990's thought their good life would last forever

I think you need to read up on the recent healthcare legislation considering that insurance can no longer drop you while you are sick. So your point is moot on that first bit. As for what jobs will be steady in 5-10 years, everyone's got to eat and fewer and fewer of you out there know how to cook for yourselves. Not to mention the fact that my knowledge goes far beyond cooking. Within the food and ag industries (which are closely linked) there are so many positions it'd make your head spin, and you can get into just about any of them so long as you have the knowledge you gain in my line of work.

Again, flexibility. Tech jobs sure as hell don't have it. Got your Red Hat Cert? Good for you, but we need MSCEs. What's that? You know Perl? That's fantastic, but we need someone who knows how to code using the .net framework. My career path, flexible, tech career path, rigid. Specialization can get you a bunch of money if you're in the right field at the right time, but having the ability to be flexible pays more constant dividends in the long run.

Case in point. I've lost my job in my industry twice. First ...


I don't doubt that most people are hard workers. Did I chalk my entire success up to that? No. If you read all of my comments, I chalk it up to the flexibility both my wife and I have in our careers, and the foresight I had when choosing what career path to take. We've told our kids (even my generation) that "if you do something you love, you'll never have to 'work' a day in your life." While that holds true, the reality is that people have been setting themselves up for careers that simply don't exist. Case in point is one of my best friends. He's got a degree in sculpture. That doesn't pay the bills. He biatched and moaned just like the rest of the doomsayers that he was never going to achieve the dream of home ownership, etc. etc. until he realized that he needed to be flexible in his career. He re-trained, is in the process of getting his MBA from U of MD and works a job that has not one goddamned thing to do with what he went to school for and he is married, owns a house, is working on having kids, and is getting his masters. The difference between him and the hard-luck cases out there is he realized that he needed to quit living in a dreamworld and re-train. Hard work is only one component of the whole thing. You have to be smart about it too, and again, you have to be flexible.

So, go take your assumptions about what I said and shove them up your arse, you know, right next to where your head is if you believe this dreck and doomsaying that you can't achieve the American dream anymore.
 
2012-10-04 06:19:01 PM

RockofAges: Which embodies the American Reality, rather than the illusory, flagsucking dream.


Ooh, he mad.
 
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