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(Spiegel)   Economist Joseph Stiglitz:"The American dream has become a myth"   ( spiegel.de) divider line
    More: Sad, Joseph Stiglitz, American Dream, social inequality, income inequality metrics, SPIEGEL, American families, economists, rhetoric of science  
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10243 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:59 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-03 02:39:04 AM  

ShannonKW: GORDON: Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.

A million immigrants are too busy working hard and getting ahead to read the article.

Once they're sent back to Mexico for good, everyone will have a job opportunity (as well as a weight loss opportunity) and the economy will rebound. That done, a large segment of the US population will suddenly become financially secure and attractive enough to fark. This in turn will greatly stimulate the nightclub and sex industry while increasing the demand for party drugs.

The recently deported Latinos will thrive in this environment resulting in a corresponding vast expansion of recreational drug production south of the border. The masses of newly qualified American agricultural laborers will find it more remunerative to pick cannabis for pesos than lettuce for dollars, and will flock to the new dope plantations. This will anger native Latinos who are edged out of jobs by Gringos, and they will demand that working visas be tightly controlled which in turn will result in pushing the work under the table, and there will ensue a lethal hemorrhage of wages back to families in the US.

The already brittle Latin governments will cave under the fiscal pressure and come completely under the thrall of the dope plantations while the US economy will bloom under the double miracle of exporting their unemployment and receiving big, taxable remittances from abroad for zero investment in infrastructure. The DEA will be repurposed to providing security for drug producers (lending a new and gratifying meaning to the phrase, "Drug Enforcement Agency") the Juárez Cartel will gain a seat at the U.N., and 2/3 of the posting members of Fark will find something better to do with their time than crapping at strangers in politics threads.

In short, Utopia.


8.8/10
 
2012-10-03 02:39:21 AM  

Fano: The last time America had a revolutionary spirit, it ended with half the south burned. And those revolutionaries were tards.


I still wouldn't mind starting over, how about you?

Aussie_As: Weighing into something I know fark-all about (well hey this is Fark), and not commenting on the economics of it at all, in democracies government and the people aren't really different, no matter what politicians try to claim when they're desperate to win votes. On major policy matters, as I think your suggesting is needed here, the solutions are more likely to come from academics, business and community leaders than politicians (preferably all three working together). Historically, the military has also had a role in the US but perhaps are best left out these days.


You might be right about that. Where I live, unemployment still hovers around 9%. Various business and community leaders have recently formed a think tank for finding ways to re-stimulate job growth, though it's hard to say yet how well it'll serve the people vs. how well it'll serve themselves. I've heard rumors of bringing in lots of minimum wage factory jobs to make it seem like we're booming with new jobs. Oh boy, let the fun times begin.
 
2012-10-03 02:42:30 AM  

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: It will always be a myth for the lazy.


Says another uneducated poor angry conservative troll

Awww. You mad lazy bro?



Exactly. Everyone is poor dumb and lazy except you, the perfect human being.
 
2012-10-03 02:43:09 AM  

Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.



What hasn't worked? Go into details.
 
2012-10-03 02:49:22 AM  

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.


notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night
 
2012-10-03 02:53:34 AM  
In summary: MARKETING, how do it work.
 
2012-10-03 02:55:07 AM  

david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night



1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing
 
2012-10-03 02:56:26 AM  

sethen320: Oh, ok. Thanks for the intelligent discourse.


And thanks so much to YOU for adding your copious, inane bullshiat to this thread.
 
2012-10-03 02:57:41 AM  

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


Oooh, talking points! Tell me more, my computer doesn't get Fox News.
 
2012-10-03 03:02:51 AM  

david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


Hahaha, you're cute. A complete idiot, but still kinda cute. Go be an ignorant dumbass somewhere else though. Hey, if you'd rather have a psychopathic religious nut who believes in magic underwear leading the country, that's your choice. It is a completely retarded choice that speaks volumes about your own inability to engage in rational and objective thought, but its all yours.
 
2012-10-03 03:09:01 AM  
The myth is that hard work or making something worthwhile will get your your American Dream.

The reality is that if you bullsh*t the right people well enough you can become a millionaire - even President if you want! - without ever having produced a thing of value in your life.

Worked for Obama and Bush, and it can work for you, too!
 
2012-10-03 03:09:11 AM  

2words1finger: david_gaithersburg: intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: Whatever, I'm going to throw another vote his way in the blind hope that doing MORE of what HASN'T WORKED will miraculously correct everything just because of his skin color.


What hasn't worked? Go into details.

notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night

Hahaha, you're cute. A complete idiot, but still kinda cute. Go be an ignorant dumbass somewhere else though. Hey, if you'd rather have a psychopathic religious nut who believes in magic underwear leading the country, that's your choice. It is a completely retarded choice that speaks volumes about your own inability to engage in rational and objective thought, but its all yours.


You're insane.
 
2012-10-03 03:11:41 AM  
Okay, I'll tell you how it works: 1. Create a perceived need. 2. Profit.

One of the biggest problems in our current social structure is the inability to distinguish between NEEDS and WANTS. Worldwide - our society has tainted almost everyone.
 
2012-10-03 03:13:51 AM  

intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing


I agree with all of these points. In my part of the world, the economic stimulus focussed on building school facilities. There were a few examples of unfortunate rip-offs but mostly it delivered decent community infrastructure and kept the building industry from disappearing. The government here toyed with a cash for clunkers scheme idea but realised it just would have sent a lot of money off-shore rather than assist local manufacturing.

Our currency was floated in the early 80's, and this has probably been the biggest and best economic reform in Australia in the last 50 years. Our dollar settled at around US$0.60 to US$0.70 in the early nineties, then when Asia had a meltdown in the late 90's (which usually would have had a massive impact in Australia), our dollar fell further (below US$0.50 for a while) and our exporters found new markets in Europe and the Americas. Unemployment was not the problem it usually would have been, and as our trading partners recovered our unemployment rate fell to levels not seen in over a generation. Even now, although times are tougher since 2007, unemployment is not a big issue.

This wouldn't work in the US though. The economy is too big to cope with all of the effects which come from having a dollar which can halve and then double in value in the course of a decade, as ours has done.
 
2012-10-03 03:14:19 AM  

intelligent comment below: david_gaithersburg: notsureifyou'reserious

Cash for clunkers
Devaluing the dollar
21% real inflation
Obamacare
I can go on all night


1) helped save the auto industry and got more higher emission standard cars on the road
2) important to compete with global companies
3) notsureifyou'reserious
4) yes 0bamacare is a huge benefit, lowering costs and insuring tens of millions more

By all means, keep going on. This is amusing


1-It cost what, $200K per car, and all it did for industry was shift demand
2-Yeah, paying $3 for a gallon of milk, and $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.
3-wut?
4-bwahahaha!
 
2012-10-03 03:15:26 AM  

Aussie_As: In my part of the world, the economic stimulus focussed on building school facilities. There were a few examples of unfortunate rip-offs but mostly it delivered decent community infrastructure and kept the building industry from disappearing



Republicans blocked this legislation
 
2012-10-03 03:21:44 AM  
Such desperate arguments reminds me off....


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
kab
2012-10-03 03:22:33 AM  

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Done in four.
 
2012-10-03 03:25:52 AM  

NewportBarGuy: 3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright.


Me too.

Then I was laid off. Dwindling savings. Probably going to lose my home and everything I've worked hard for, if I can't fix this.

Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.
 
2012-10-03 03:32:02 AM  

bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.


Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...
 
2012-10-03 03:38:24 AM  

WhyteRaven74: NewportBarGuy: I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now

Right now, at this moment? No. But over the last 30 years? They've seen wage growth, while the US really hasn't.


We are not really seeing that much, at least not here in France. Most people don't get enough of a raise to beat inflation.
That and the idea that the socialist party that is now in power here, won partly on promises to raise taxes on the rich. the first taxes they raised were on cigarettes and beer, which predominately affect the poor.
/not alcohol BEER!
 
2012-10-03 03:39:12 AM  

2words1finger: Also, future generations will look back on American-style "free market capitalism" as a failed economic experiment. Experience has shown us that it simply does not work, because it is structurally incapable of mitigating the factor of human greed while it rewards those with genuine psychopathic tendencies - particularly the lack of empathy - with success that comes at the expense of others.


You'll always have psychopaths. The economy is a better way to funnel their tendencies than war.
 
2012-10-03 03:40:09 AM  

bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.


Solid advice.
 
2012-10-03 03:41:12 AM  
money movement will be the killer. As more wealth concentrates in fewer hands there is less money movement. Less money moving means economies flatten out if not stagnate. Sooner or later something has to give if the money stagnates.. usually its the heads of the elite rich that get that money moving again.
 
2012-10-03 03:49:13 AM  

david_gaithersburg: $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.


Where the hell are you getting coffee that expensive? If you mean brewed coffee, even a venti at Starbucks is under $3, and if you regular coffee, you can get it for about $8 lb. Also, you realize the government doesn't exactly control inflation and exchange rates right?
 
2012-10-03 03:54:41 AM  
I think the American dream has changed.

Post wwII it was to own a plot of land and drive a decent car in an upper middle class neighborhood, maybe have a comfortable and solid career that made enough.

Now it is defined as owning a mini-mansion in a up-and-coming section of town, and becoming a multi-millionare.

Now that many of the jobs that allowed the post wwii vision are gone all that is left is the mythology of becoming that multi-millionare.
 
2012-10-03 03:58:14 AM  

david_gaithersburg: 1-It cost what, $200K per car, and all it did for industry was shift demand
2-Yeah, paying $3 for a gallon of milk, and $8 for coffee is just farking spiffy.
3-wut?
4-bwahahaha!



Just as I thought, straight to the discredited a million times talking points

1) For starters I like how you claim this was an 0bama program, second, to give a hurting industry sales and better efficient cars on the road, it was worth it
2) do you have any idea why you pay that much? hint it's because of rising food and energy prices and zero to do with "devaluing the dollar"
3) "real inflation" is a great RON PAUL talking point, based on fantasy but a great one
4) I'm sure you have facts that discredit the CBO
 
2012-10-03 03:58:58 AM  

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...


Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Solid advice.



sounds legit
 
2012-10-03 04:13:33 AM  

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Solid advice.


sounds legit


I know, RIGHT!?
 
2012-10-03 04:20:01 AM  
Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.
 
2012-10-03 04:25:33 AM  
"The American Dream" was always a myth/marketing-slogan. It's just that people have stopped falling for it.
 
2012-10-03 04:26:50 AM  

Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?



So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?
 
2012-10-03 04:42:29 AM  
I'd love to see the economy you people are talking about where money confers no advantage. Of course it's going to be more difficult when you start with less. There are more people with less, here, because the way we redistribute wealth has somehow gotten completely twisted, and you don't accumulate riskable capital until you're well into middle class already.
 
2012-10-03 04:43:05 AM  
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7360499/79770271#c79770271" target="_blank">Poo_Fight</a>:</b> <i>

I know, RIGHT!?</i>

<drink>
 
2012-10-03 04:44:54 AM  

Buffet: Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.


That would be no one, because Hell was a mythical story invented to keep people in a state of perpetual fear and willing to sacrifice 10% of their gross income and fight unjust wars because white men who wear really nice ties tell them to.
 
2012-10-03 05:03:16 AM  

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?


So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?


I'm glad your User name is intelligent comment below because there never seems to be an intelligent comment ABOVE when you post.
 
2012-10-03 05:04:04 AM  

Fano: but what matters most are an individual's life chances


Well? Which is it? Societal trends that work at a class level, or "life chances" that work at an individual level?

No wonder economics isn't considered a hard science.
 
2012-10-03 05:12:17 AM  

fredbox: Buffet: Not much doubt who's gonna burn in hell.

That would be no one, because Hell was a mythical story invented to keep people in a state of perpetual fear and willing to sacrifice 10% of their gross income and fight unjust wars because white men who wear really nice ties tell them to.


You mean like the mythical story about how republicans want to abolish Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security? Or like the mythical story that if you vote for a man out of guilt who has a certain skin color and absolutely NO experience, he can save us from the terrible path we've been on for the last thirty years?...Or like that mythical story about the one silver spoon liberal Massachusetts white broad running for congress who lied and pretended to be a native American?...

Do tell.

I VOTED FOR THAT ONE MINORITY!!! I am ABSOLVED!!!!!!
 
2012-10-03 05:38:42 AM  

intelligent comment below: Poo_Fight: I know, RIGHT!?


So now the question is, what other user name did you think you were posting with?


Exactly.

Poo_Flinger is just somebody's threadshiatting troll alt. Into the ignore bin it goes.
 
2012-10-03 05:41:48 AM  
If we, say, disbanded the Department of Homeland Redundancy and spent the savings on education, we might have a start.
 
2012-10-03 06:09:55 AM  

ladyfortuna: As much as I like you, I can't help but think you've got some blinders on. Possibly because you've not experienced the same corporate abuse (and sheer bad luck) some of us have; obviously I speculate since I don't know you, but there are plenty of companies which don't give a rat's ass how hard you work and that you showed up every day.


Dont you have the same freedom not to "give a rat's ass" about your company as an employee? Today, the days of private security holding you at the door of a company and forcing you back to the line were gone about 130 years ago. For most companies, it costs a few grand in OT and HR costs to bring someone new in.

2words1finger: It is that "I've got mine, screw everybody else" attitude that is necessary for real success in the free-market system. I don't know about you, but I don't like, and will fight against to my last breath, a business culture that rewards those who care the least about whose throat they have to slit open to get ahead.


If only you had a government that protected people's property and rights. A corporation can only offer you a product you're not forced to buy or a job you're not forced to work. Nowadays, most of the "throat slitting" i see comes from business owners who are connected to government and find it easier to keep their product on the shelves by buying a few congressmen to keep the laws in their favor. than in competing in the marketplace.

intelligent comment below: 2) do you have any idea why you pay that much? hint it's because of rising food and energy prices and zero to do with "devaluing the dollar"


Food and energy are hard commodities whose worth can be measured against the dollar. When the price of those items goes up, it requires more dollars to buy them due to either shortages in food/energy supply or an overabundance in the money supply. The president says that we're drilling everywhere we possibly can so why is gas at a historic high?

The CBO bases inflation on a weighted system of price scales, putting more weight on some categories and less on others in order to make their calculations seem more friendly to the Fed. Housing is still bleeding so that is why the inflation numbers you see are still somewhat low. Food, energy, rents, college and healthcare costs are all through the roof. Money itself has no value, it is simply a token or marker which is supposed to represent something between points of exchange i.e. an hour of labor, a loaf of bread, gallon of milk, etc. Increasing the money supply only serves to raise prices which destroys savings - another component of inflation - which is at an all time low.

Something to take with you: When prices rise, the dollar is not worth as much as it requires more dollars to buy the product. When this happens across many economic sectors (savings included) and especially those which low and middle income people depend on, you have inflation
 
2012-10-03 06:24:33 AM  
what the HELL is an American dream??? is it something like an Americone dream. or something more sweet.
that involves infinite free money
 
2012-10-03 06:39:27 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


I too got dealt the good luck card, despite having broke-ass parents. Pair that with just a little hard work and things are nice :)
 
2012-10-03 07:08:00 AM  
Stiglitz? Spiegel? Bullshiat? Yes!

Inequality in the US has grown for two reasons: globalization and immigration. Both increase the supply of low skill labor, driving down prices and resulting in a worse outcome for existing low skill labor.

You can argue that we should curtail globalization and immigration to raise the price of labor in the US, but be aware that a) such a policy will result in higher prices for everything, as opposed to the very benign inflation we've seen over the last 25 years, and b) non-American low skill labor (in countries that have recently industrialized and immigrants) will be harmed.
 
2012-10-03 07:09:59 AM  

Guntram Shatterhand: You know what the real biatch of this is?

For years the American Dream has been pushed as an ideal. People would go into debt to find that slice of happiness that they've always been promised, the sense of final dramatic victory over the world in the form of financial security and 'independence.' But it's always been a way to create a slave class that can't move, can't do what they want, and have social pressures causing them to conform.

Americans know shiat about freedom. Freedom is scary: you're totally responsible for yourself, you can't shift the blame, and you have to make hard choices. Freedom isn't something you chant as a thought-terminating cliche, it's the power to do what you want. But it takes a lot of fortitude and honesty to do that. And to be honest, freedom isn't as freeing as it sounds. It takes work, and it's certainly not a house designed to create a tax base held hostage by a shifting economy that is controlled by the 1%.

The totality of American life today is essentially extortion via a greatly exaggerated form of responsibility. How much freedom does one have when forced to beg for bare subsistence while those with much taunt you and curse you for the results of their actions? But Americans like delusion, and we love the idea of freedom being some shiny pillar that we know absolutely farking nothing about. We love the chant, and that's where it really ends. We are the first to point out how much American life sucks yet do nothing about it. We've been beaten down. We're essentially the lambs born right onto a griddle. And we brag about it like it's something to be proud of, like working ourselves to death is somehow a noble thing.

The latest economic downturn should reveal one thing to Americans at large: that we're not free. We're far from it. And it's a systemic problem that we really need to dig deep down about. This isn't a problem that overthrowing a government or playing right-wing commando with a bunch of cheap guns can resolve. This is how we deal with the dead-end philosophy that America has come to accept as 'freedom.' How do we react to the reality of freedom when we use responsibility as a form of slut shaming? Our country is broken, and it's not just in an economic sense. The foundations of American thought are, at their heart, really rotten and needlessly vile and competitive. Exactly why is simple subsistence a moral failing again? And what kind of awful people thinks that way?

All I can say right now is that when you really have time to examine American life as an outsider--as an unemployed person who is detached from that Dream--a lot of things become very clear very quickly. And I don't see many Americans going back to the Dream once the economy sorts itself out. It's hard to measure consumer confidence when you're one write-up away from being excluded from a Dream that, at its heart, is Yet Another Marketing Tool, and just as hollow.


I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...
 
2012-10-03 07:45:04 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


No, we won't. We never had 16 trillion in debt. We never had 50% of American workers paying no taxes. We never had entire generations of kids who are liberal and think working is not fair. We are screwed.

Obama gets another term, we will be at 22 trillion in debt by the end of that one. That is some serious interest payments alone.
 
2012-10-03 07:47:55 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Inequality in the US has grown for two reasons: globalization and immigration. Both increase the supply of low skill labor, driving down prices and resulting in a worse outcome for existing low skill labor.


"Just blame it on the guy who doesn't speak English."

-- Homer Simpson
 
2012-10-03 07:50:34 AM  

jaybeezey: I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...


Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski! Stay out of Malibu, dead beat!
 
2012-10-03 07:54:15 AM  

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats [who couldn't get their way in Europe] who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Inserted for additional clarity.
 
2012-10-03 08:01:11 AM  

Poo_Fight: bittermang: Keep your head up, but not all the way up in the clouds.

Or all the way up another mans ass simply because it soothes your conscience to vote for him simply because he is our first minority president...


Don't assume that because that's why you hate him, it's why we like him.
 
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