If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Spiegel)   Economist Joseph Stiglitz:"The American dream has become a myth"   (spiegel.de) divider line 247
    More: Sad, Joseph Stiglitz, American Dream, social inequality, income inequality metrics, SPIEGEL, American families, economists, rhetoric of science  
•       •       •

10201 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



247 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-10-03 12:19:07 AM

fragMasterFlash: 1 percent, 99 percent, you all wish you were hung like me.


Like a bull mouse?

/that is not a typo
 
2012-10-03 12:20:39 AM

Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.


Yes. Truly, he preemptively spins, in anticipation of his grave, every time any lone person in the United States moves up the ladder. His broad views on class mobility in a nation of 300 million are absolutely threatened by the tiny percentage of people who do move up. Between that and the little jig he dances every time a modest fortune is wiped out or someone contracts a serious illness while uninsured, the man is literally a blur.

Well spotted!
 
2012-10-03 12:21:18 AM
suffolkcountylibertyreport.com 

Because capitalism is the root of all evil....
 
2012-10-03 12:21:51 AM

NewportBarGuy: unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.

Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.


Okay. JUST those countries comes out to be about 205 million. And, off hand, at least 2 of them have significantly higher population density.
 
2012-10-03 12:22:42 AM

WorldCitizen: Here's a decent start.

Mobility in earnings across pairs of fathers and sons is particularly low in France, Italy,
the United Kingdom and the United States, while mobility is higher in the Nordic
countries, Australia and Canada.


I can see that.

Across European OECD countries, there is a substantial wage premium associated with
growing up in a better-educated family, and a corresponding penalty with growing up in
a less-educated family. The premium and penalty are particularly large in southern
European countries, as well as in the United Kingdom. The penalty is also high in
Luxembourg and Ireland. In these countries the wage premium is more than 20%, while
the penalty is some 16% or more (relative to wages earned by individuals raised in a
family with average education).


I like this next one the most...

It is a challenge to measure intergenerational wage or educational mobility and to
identify the main ways in which the socio-economic status of parents can influence that of
their children as adults. A key issue is that it is difficult to disentangle the effect of parents'
socio-economic status from that of inherited abilities or disposition of individuals that
influence their wages and educational achievement.2 In general, as in this study, estimates
of the impact of parents' socio-economic status on individuals' wages and educational
achievement do not distinguish these two effects. However, to the extent that heritability
of ability does not vary systematically across countries, it should not influence crosscountry
variation in wage or educational mobility.


I mean... What we're (and this study is) saying is that our education middle and upper middle classes determine about the same future income potential with some variations . It's the lower-middle and lower class (education, economic background) we have to focus on. That is where America sucks harder because we have a very weak social safety net and public (higher) education system.

If you're saying we need a better educated population, I'm on board. That study does not indicate that it is easier to achieve "The American Dream" as you think it does. It just means they have a much better system in place to brace your fall, or help you get a leg up. I, too, wish we had such things here. Bring it to a ballot and I'll vote for it.

I still think this is a country that anyone can make it in with luck, intelligence and determination. We just don't have the same level of governmental and education support as those smaller countries do. It's a fact and I do hope that changes.
 
2012-10-03 12:23:59 AM
/My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.


imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 12:24:42 AM
img194.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-03 12:28:36 AM
Well, all you dipshiats have Internet access, I guess it can't be too bad now can it?

Go wash my Bentleys...plural.
 
2012-10-03 12:29:01 AM

doglover: THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!


members.iinet.net.au
 
2012-10-03 12:29:17 AM

Atomic Spunk: My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?


You forgot the Russian girl licking your butthole. Don't quit your day job, kid. Or your night job, or your weekend job, and stay in school.
 
2012-10-03 12:29:18 AM
And in conclusion, the economist expert Stiglitz declares that because of the great divide between the rich and the poor, "I should say Auf Wiedersehen to my Nazi balls." 
 
2012-10-03 12:32:56 AM
fark that. what about the great samoan dream?
 
2012-10-03 12:33:14 AM
mondaymorningpunter.files.wordpress.comCouldn't find it.
 
2012-10-03 12:35:35 AM

Man On Pink Corner: It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.


A million immigrants are too busy working hard and getting ahead to read the article.
 
2012-10-03 12:36:10 AM
It's not a myth. It's just been outsourced to India and China.
 
2012-10-03 12:38:17 AM
A big problem is "financial innovation."

Financial innovation means two things:
1) Creating and selling virtual products - stocks, bonds, derivatives of those products. These aren't actual goods or services. These are logical constructs.
"A financial product is about as conceptual as you can get," says Wilson Ervin, a senior adviser at Credit Suisse. "You just need paper and ink."

2) Figuring out ways to have people take on more debt. Figuring out more subtle ways of doing it. "the poor little subprime borrowers will not last long." -- Fabrice Tourre, financial executive, in a personal email.

Paul Volcker said that the only beneficial financial innovation of the past 30 years was the ATM. An unfortunate admission because the ATM is not a financial innovation, but a technological one.

It's a Farmville economy, where people spend actual cash for virtual products like tractors in the game. But the face value of these virtual products is gargantuan. In 2008, the derivatives market itself, all virtual products, was about 4 times as large as the entire world economy. It's only grown.

Booms and busts are loved by Wall Street, but all they do is suck money from outsiders and send it to insiders.

Debt is a big problem. Taking the hamburger today and promising to pay for it Tuesday is a siren song. The central banks print money to prevent bad debt from imploding. The problem with printing money though is that it's trying to get something for nothing. There's no free lunch in physics and there's no free lunch in economics. Printing money is a TINSTAAFL violation.

BUT - the game has been sold to the public like a casino sells its gambling. People have fun playing, they think they can win, and on occasion someone does win big drawing ooh's and ahh's. But for the most part, people are just bled of money. It's the house, the financial sector, that wins. And the politicians they support write the rules in their favor. Ultimate the politicians are responsible for it.

The casino-ization of the society, financial innovation and the virtual products market, and the generation of bad debt which then generates money-printing by central banks all serve to extract money from the public and direct it to the highly connected inside players. Crony capitalism at its finest. Profits are kept by the private entities and the public is forced to pay for losses.
 
2012-10-03 12:38:59 AM
Well to be fair, the professor works at Columbia. New Yorkers have always been a pessimistic bunch. Jew + New York = clinical depression.

If it was sunny, he'd worry about skin cancer. If it was raining, he's worry about mold. If it was overcast, he'd worry about the lack of vitamin d.

Nothing to see, move on.
 
2012-10-03 12:40:26 AM
I'd be better off moving to South America. I could become the dictator of a banana republic.
 
2012-10-03 12:41:05 AM

SouthParkCon: Because capitalism is the root of all evil....


Don't conflate capitalism, which is a very effective system at providing incentives and allocating resources, and crony capitalism, which is what we have today.
 
2012-10-03 12:44:32 AM
The best thing we can do to spur fiscal mobility is nationalized health care. Hard to start a new venture is you are scared crapless to leave your current employers coverage.

/went 8 years no coverage starting business - damn lucky had excellent health.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:23 AM
 
2012-10-03 12:49:09 AM
img388.imageshack.us

Was this tag on vacation today or what?
 
2012-10-03 12:49:28 AM
 
2012-10-03 12:50:50 AM
That's cause it was dreamed up by white folks in the 50s, and based on the premise of indefinitely cheap fuel and mass produced anthill communities.
 
2012-10-03 12:54:41 AM

Fano: Gordon Sinclair offers a rebuttal


That speech is from 1973....
 
2012-10-03 12:55:08 AM

NewportBarGuy: You can still make it here. I


It would help if our wages weren't facing 30 years of what amounts to stagnation. Which the other countries aren't facing.
 
2012-10-03 12:56:18 AM

Ennuipoet: Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class.


Heck, the revolution was partly because of the rich. Wealthy land speculators were pushing into the western frontier. When the natives retaliated violently, the land owners demanded that the Crown protect their newly settled areas. This became very expensive, forcing the Crown to raise taxes to pay for it. This pissed off the wealthy colonists who had to shoulder much of the tax burden. Some were angry enough to plot an insurrection.

Loyalty to the Crown mostly boiled down to money. Merchants who profited from the colonies being part of the kingdom tended to be loyalists. Landowners who would profit from independence tended to support revolution. And each side got very nasty about loyalty oaths, sometimes resorting to assault, arson or murder to acquire an oath.

It was not one of the finer moments in our country's history.
 
2012-10-03 12:57:20 AM
There are so many problems here..

1st)unlike people that willfully ignore facts, pretty much everyone can agree on the fact(supported by facts), that economic mobility has been on the decline since Reaganomics put our nation permanently in debt.

2nd)all this "American Dream", "American Exceptionalism" crap is just that, crap. Crap fed to the public by and large by people who were born rich and work out of boredom or to have a purpose to their lives, not to provide for basic necessities like shelter food and medical care. It's an attempt to make you think that, by golly, hard work will get you that suburban home, and some peace and security, when..

3rd)pretty much everyone who has actually been employed for more than a decade will tell you that hard, diligent, quality work, good performance, punctuality, all of the things they try and sell you as important don't actually mean anything. They will always, always, always promote their buddy. Period.

4th)if you weren't born into the economic elite, you will never, ever be a part of it. No amount of hard work will do it. As the new port barfly said, it's luck. Lightning strikes more people in the head each year, than who crawl up a class by their good work ethic. There are singular examples to the contrary, and they are all those 1 in 200million chances. They might have all been really hard workers, but it was blind dumb luck that chose to strike them with unfathomable success.

5th)post ww2 nostalgia needs to farking die. It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment. It was caused by the fact that we were about the only industrial nation whose manufacturing wasn't destroyed in a world spanning war. We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.
 
2012-10-03 12:58:32 AM

Forbidden Doughnut: Fano: Gordon Sinclair offers a rebuttal

That speech is from 1973....


FTA:"The belief in the American dream is reinforced by anecdotes, by dramatic examples of individuals who have made it from the bottom to the top -- but what matters most are an individual's life chances. The belief in the American dream is not supported by the data."

This definition of the American Dream seems to come from Horatio Alger, circa 1900
 
2012-10-03 12:59:13 AM

WhyteRaven74: Which the other countries aren't facing.


I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now. Whilst I agree with you about our own problems, I fail to see some beacon in other countries. Brazil has issues with inflation. Europe has austerity, aside from Germany and the oil-rich Nordic nations.

From 1980 on, I've seen the wage charts. I know we have serious issues. Considering the severity and scope of the international economic situation, we've all got a huge sh*t sammich to take a bite out of.
 
2012-10-03 12:59:32 AM
Also a huge issue - the abiilty of loan originators / lenders to avoid taking on any repayment risk.

The game is fantastic. They generate loans, then sell them, taking a healthy fee. This is why they created loans which they didn't care about having repaid, en masse. The concept is called "securitization."

At first, it seems a bizarre thing, "Why would lenders make loans they don't care about having repaid?" Once you understand it, the lightbulb goes on.

The problem is that the taxpayer winds up paying the debt via the massive bailouts. More "privatize profits, socialize losses."
 
2012-10-03 12:59:41 AM
I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding the basic principles that led to an American middle class.

We had a war in which a large number of young men were trained for military action and shipped abroad. When the war ended, our government spent a lot of money providing these men with subsidized college educations and housing, and a resulting baby boom ensued as families settled down.

At the same time, the United States was the only major power not ravaged in some way by WWII. There was no rebuilding to do. US production was able to shift from making planes and ammunition to making consumer products aimed at families, creating jobs and economic growth.

The middle class was further sustained by the Korean War, which allowed a second wave of soldiers to come home to subsidized education and housing. And the children of those who served in WWII or Korea were also able to take advantage of college educations, giving the middle class another generation in which to thrive.

What do we have to sustain a middle class in 2012? Fewer than 1% of Americans serve in the military, and the majority of Americans who graduate from high school go on to achieve some college education during their lifetime (though only about 2/3 ever finish). This means that individuals with a college education are becoming undervalued (due to excess supply) and degrees are overexpensive (since they're no longer directly subsidized for most Americans).

The same is true of manufacturing jobs, which were a staple of the middle class for those who didn't pursue higher education. When manufacturing was inexpensive in the US following the wars (due to machinery already being purchased and businesses benefiting from the war economy), the cost of labor was not a primary concern. But as labor costs increased due to bad union contracts and government intervention, the system became volatile and jobs were shipped overseas. The middle class could never indefinitely benefit from this system; jobs were bound to vanish eventually once the benefits of the war economy came to a close.

The question today should not be, "what do we do about the shrinking middle class?" but rather, "why don't we tax everyone appropriately so we can once again provide government job training and subsidies for housing and college to young people so they can rise up to a new middle class status once they're established?"

I know it seems counter-intuitive to give people money to do things they ought to be able to do themselves. But then, young people only have the money to do these things if someone else gives it to them -- so why not let it come from the government, for the betterment of all, than merely from privileged parents or predatory financial institutions?
 
2012-10-03 01:02:07 AM

neongoats: I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.


What helped immensely was several decades of rapid manufacturing growth fueled by the fact that most of the world was rebuilding from and repopulating after WWII. We had a very easy market to access.

It's not as easy these days, and having our best and brightest focused on how to dismantle companies and send them overseas for the past few decades has really twisted the knife in our side.
 
2012-10-03 01:04:13 AM

neongoats: There are so many problems here..

1st)unlike people that willfully ignore facts, pretty much everyone can agree on the fact(supported by facts), that economic mobility has been on the decline since Reaganomics put our nation permanently in debt.

2nd)all this "American Dream", "American Exceptionalism" crap is just that, crap. Crap fed to the public by and large by people who were born rich and work out of boredom or to have a purpose to their lives, not to provide for basic necessities like shelter food and medical care. It's an attempt to make you think that, by golly, hard work will get you that suburban home, and some peace and security, when..

3rd)pretty much everyone who has actually been employed for more than a decade will tell you that hard, diligent, quality work, good performance, punctuality, all of the things they try and sell you as important don't actually mean anything. They will always, always, always promote their buddy. Period.

4th)if you weren't born into the economic elite, you will never, ever be a part of it. No amount of hard work will do it. As the new port barfly said, it's luck. Lightning strikes more people in the head each year, than who crawl up a class by their good work ethic. There are singular examples to the contrary, and they are all those 1 in 200million chances. They might have all been really hard workers, but it was blind dumb luck that chose to strike them with unfathomable success.

5th)post ww2 nostalgia needs to farking die. It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment. It was caused by the fact that we were about the only industrial nation whose manufacturing wasn't destroyed in a world spanning war. We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.


THIS. You have it all summed up perfectly. Everyone in the world has everything they will ever need. There is no more innovation to be done, and all of the major corporations can handle it from here.
 
2012-10-03 01:04:25 AM
Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.
 
2012-10-03 01:05:06 AM

wildcardjack: /My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.


...what.
 
2012-10-03 01:07:08 AM
You know what the real biatch of this is?

For years the American Dream has been pushed as an ideal. People would go into debt to find that slice of happiness that they've always been promised, the sense of final dramatic victory over the world in the form of financial security and 'independence.' But it's always been a way to create a slave class that can't move, can't do what they want, and have social pressures causing them to conform.

Americans know shiat about freedom. Freedom is scary: you're totally responsible for yourself, you can't shift the blame, and you have to make hard choices. Freedom isn't something you chant as a thought-terminating cliche, it's the power to do what you want. But it takes a lot of fortitude and honesty to do that. And to be honest, freedom isn't as freeing as it sounds. It takes work, and it's certainly not a house designed to create a tax base held hostage by a shifting economy that is controlled by the 1%.

The totality of American life today is essentially extortion via a greatly exaggerated form of responsibility. How much freedom does one have when forced to beg for bare subsistence while those with much taunt you and curse you for the results of their actions? But Americans like delusion, and we love the idea of freedom being some shiny pillar that we know absolutely farking nothing about. We love the chant, and that's where it really ends. We are the first to point out how much American life sucks yet do nothing about it. We've been beaten down. We're essentially the lambs born right onto a griddle. And we brag about it like it's something to be proud of, like working ourselves to death is somehow a noble thing.

The latest economic downturn should reveal one thing to Americans at large: that we're not free. We're far from it. And it's a systemic problem that we really need to dig deep down about. This isn't a problem that overthrowing a government or playing right-wing commando with a bunch of cheap guns can resolve. This is how we deal with the dead-end philosophy that America has come to accept as 'freedom.' How do we react to the reality of freedom when we use responsibility as a form of slut shaming? Our country is broken, and it's not just in an economic sense. The foundations of American thought are, at their heart, really rotten and needlessly vile and competitive. Exactly why is simple subsistence a moral failing again? And what kind of awful people thinks that way?

All I can say right now is that when you really have time to examine American life as an outsider--as an unemployed person who is detached from that Dream--a lot of things become very clear very quickly. And I don't see many Americans going back to the Dream once the economy sorts itself out. It's hard to measure consumer confidence when you're one write-up away from being excluded from a Dream that, at its heart, is Yet Another Marketing Tool, and just as hollow.
 
2012-10-03 01:07:33 AM

neongoats: It's been half a century since we had nearly 100% employment.


We've never had that. Indeed the closest we ever got was just before the end of WW2, for about six months. After that unemployment was anywhere between 4 and 7%. And the late 90s saw unemployment that was better than most of the 50s.

We will never, ever, ever, EVER see as prosperous a time again.

Your causes are false, and that statement is utter horseshiat, we could see it again, we just have to change how think about things.
 
2012-10-03 01:09:06 AM

Coelacanth: Sometimes I think the only reason I was born in this country was to punish me for something awful I did in a previous life.


Leave.
 
2012-10-03 01:10:34 AM
The American Dream that is still alive and working is the dream of transferring more wealth from more people to fewer people. That dream is reality and it works very well.

The American Dream that we can scrimp and save and make out better than someone who doesn't is being killed by that other American Dream I talked about.

They are both enemies to each other. And you can guess which dream will win and which dream will be cried over at a kitchen table and which will be laughed at over a $150 steak.
 
2012-10-03 01:11:36 AM
Dear Generation X:

Fark you. You'll work until you die and be lucky to afford a timeshare in a refrigerator box and you'll like it.

Love,

Every other generation.

/but I'm not bitter
 
2012-10-03 01:11:39 AM

NewportBarGuy: I'm pretty sure that most European countries are not seeing enviable wage growth right now


Right now, at this moment? No. But over the last 30 years? They've seen wage growth, while the US really hasn't.
 
2012-10-03 01:12:45 AM

WhyteRaven74: we just have to change how think about things.


No.

No.

Nope.

I mean... I honestly don't know, my friend. You have a bill that provides businesses with a tax credit for hiring new workers... shot down by Senate GOP Filibuster. I'm sorry... "threatened" filibuster. They are all too pussy to do the actual filibuster, or allow it and have to suffer through that horror and miss their silk sheets for a night.

We have thought it out. We know the way forward. What we need is for people to stop giving a sh*t which side proposes or passes something to help all of us by helping the economy.

This partisan bickery will be the end of us much more surely than unregulated financial instruments.
 
2012-10-03 01:13:33 AM

NewportBarGuy: neongoats: I'm not sure where I was going with this, other than to sink home te point that this invented in the 50s "American Dream" crap has always only really applied to the people who already were mostly there from the start.

What helped immensely was several decades of rapid manufacturing growth fueled by the fact that most of the world was rebuilding from and repopulating after WWII. We had a very easy market to access.

It's not as easy these days, and having our best and brightest focused on how to dismantle companies and send them overseas for the past few decades has really twisted the knife in our side.


Agreed, 110%. But "management" pays the money, so management is basically the only thing people get degrees in anymore. Who wants to slave away for no pay(because actually working with skills pays shiat compared to the useless MBA frat toolbags that get hired to tell them how to do their job.).
 
2012-10-03 01:15:36 AM

fusillade762: [d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net image 500x342]

/got nuthin'


Pretty much why I came to this thread.

But yeah, the dream is a fantasy taught to the proles to keep them in line.

Anyway, thanks, Fusillade762
 
2012-10-03 01:15:58 AM

NewportBarGuy: WhyteRaven74: we just have to change how think about things.

No.

No.

Nope.

I mean... I honestly don't know, my friend. You have a bill that provides businesses with a tax credit for hiring new workers... shot down by Senate GOP Filibuster. I'm sorry... "threatened" filibuster. They are all too pussy to do the actual filibuster, or allow it and have to suffer through that horror and miss their silk sheets for a night.

We have thought it out. We know the way forward. What we need is for people to stop giving a sh*t which side proposes or passes something to help all of us by helping the economy.

This partisan bickery will be the end of us much more surely than unregulated financial instruments.


i plead the second...or the fifth...
I always get those two confused.
 
2012-10-03 01:16:16 AM
When are we going to bring back Tar and Feathering? Our ancestors must think we are a bunch of pus*ies! 

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-03 01:17:19 AM
Every empire eventually collapses. Every system eventually fails. So enjoy the debauchery of the decline.
 
2012-10-03 01:17:42 AM
Some pretty good comments in here.
 
2012-10-03 01:18:59 AM

JungleBoogie: SouthParkCon: Because capitalism is the root of all evil....

Don't conflate capitalism, which is a very effective system at providing incentives and allocating resources, and crony capitalism, which is what we have today.


Is there any other kind? 
www.subprimeshakeout.com
 
Displayed 50 of 247 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report