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(Spiegel)   Economist Joseph Stiglitz:"The American dream has become a myth"   (spiegel.de) divider line 250
    More: Sad, Joseph Stiglitz, American Dream, social inequality, income inequality metrics, SPIEGEL, American families, economists, rhetoric of science  
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10197 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 08:37:39 PM
Well, that's kind of obvious.
 
2012-10-02 08:59:21 PM
Oh yeah, well YOUR FACE IS A MYTH!
 
- It doesn't always work.
 
2012-10-02 09:06:34 PM

brap: It doesn't always work.


THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!
 
2012-10-02 09:07:55 PM
Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.
 
2012-10-02 09:09:00 PM
hmmm. i seem to remember hst talking about this for the past forty years before his death...
 
2012-10-02 09:09:22 PM
Yeah... I'm pretty sure it always was
 
2012-10-02 09:12:15 PM
Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.
 
2012-10-02 09:12:43 PM

doglover: brap: It doesn't always work.

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!



That always works.
 
WITH YOUR MOM!
 
2012-10-02 09:36:15 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


Good for you. But "the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else"? The evidence doesn't support that.

I assume that we're gauging that on one's ability to be upwardly mobile. Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations. If you want to gauge someone's ability to succeed, the best predictor in the US is actually parental income. If you're truly interested in being the land of opportunity, you'll take your collective heads out of your asses.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-10-02 09:36:16 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-10-02 09:42:14 PM
d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net

/got nuthin'
 
2012-10-02 09:44:19 PM
Could a guy name Horatio Alger make it in this day and age?  I doubt it, but if he changed his name to Richard Steel?  By golly I believe the world could be his quivering, accepting, and moist oyster.
 
2012-10-02 09:58:12 PM
No Carlin reference yet, I am disappoint.

go back to sleep
 
2012-10-02 10:03:38 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-02 10:06:32 PM

fusillade762: /got nuthin'


My first reaction too.

/Wonder what Friederich Zoeller has to say?
 
2012-10-02 10:06:51 PM
does this mean I won't win the lotto?
 
2012-10-02 10:07:34 PM

MorningBreath: does this mean I won't win the lotto?


Ah... I see we share the same retirement plan
 
2012-10-02 10:08:03 PM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


No the dream wasn't to be that guy. The dream was the nice house, with a hot wife, 2 kids and a dog playing in the back yard, two shiny cars in the driveway, and the mortgage payed off before the kids were in college... And for maybe two generations it was possible... not likely, but possible.
 
2012-10-02 10:09:04 PM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


Bingo. We had a brief period in the years between WWII and Vietnam where both the economy and social freedom was increasing for pretty much everyone. Other than that, the American Dream has always been only partially true for only a part of the population.
 
2012-10-02 10:10:28 PM
That's nothing. Eight years ago, I was a janitor at a Burger King. Then I unclogged a toilet, only to find that the blockage was a wad of Google stock certificates. Now I own a double-rotor Sikorsky full of albino tiger cubs.
 
2012-10-02 10:11:03 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


4/10
 
2012-10-02 10:23:22 PM

fusillade762: [d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net image 500x342]

/got nuthin'


First thing that came to mind for me...
 
2012-10-02 10:27:07 PM

NewportBarGuy: Bullsh*t! With luck, determination, and some intelligence you have the best chance to make something of yourself in this country than anywhere else.

3 years ago I was making just a few bucks more than minimum wage. Now I have an awesome job, got promoted 3 times and have more money than I ever had in my life and the future looks nothing but bright. I did all this and all I have is a sh*tty associates degree. Working on a Bachelor's (still) but I'll get that eventually.

The American Dream is still alive and well. Just scale it back a bit. I can't emphasize luck enough, though. Luck plays a HUGE part in life. Call it fate or whatever, but that sh*t is real. It's that combined with showing up and giving everything you've got.

I respect Joe, but he's wrong. This is still an amazing country filled with amazing people capable of awesome things. Yes, the economy is tough right now. We all know that. We've been through it before. We'll come out the other side and we'll move on as we always have.


Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.
 
2012-10-02 10:27:28 PM

omnibus_necanda_sunt: That's nothing. Eight years ago, I was a janitor at a Burger King. Then I unclogged a toilet, only to find that the blockage was a wad of Google stock certificates. Now I own a double-rotor Sikorsky full of albino tiger cubs.


I chortled.
 
2012-10-02 10:47:55 PM
Well, I don't know about that. The American Dream is still alive, but it's getting really difficult to achieve it if you're not already born three quarters of the way there.
 
2012-10-02 11:22:47 PM

Lando Lincoln: Well, I don't know about that. The American Dream is still alive, but it's getting really difficult to achieve it if you're not already born three quarters of the way there.


It's at a fraction of it's potential of 50 years ago. You can still do it, but it's barely possible. You have to either be born into a position of near wealth, basically privileged middle class, or get it by sheer luck, either by hitting the exact right idea at the right time or knowing the right people at the right time. Straight up ability used to get you somewhere on your own, but that isn't true anymore.
 
2012-10-02 11:46:32 PM
And Obama refused to let this guy anywhere near his economic team. Sigh.
 
2012-10-02 11:47:20 PM

unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.


Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: 4/10


Not even trolling.

WorldCitizen: Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.


Yeah, well... They can have their economic austerity. I'll stand by my post.
 
2012-10-02 11:48:06 PM
The "American Dream" has been to own a house with a nice yard, have a "regular" family with a couple of kids, and a car or two. That dream was pretty much killed when Regan took office, but the decline started in the 60s. In order to afford a house with ONE kid, two adults need to be working full time jobs. Middle class incomes have pretty much stayed flat and the only reason they haven't tanked is because women started taking more jobs. Inflation has taken out most of the gains of wage increases.

Since the economy has transformed into more service driven from a construction/manufacturing driven economy, the only thing keeping it afloat are people who spend money, aka the middle class. With less money being available to spend, the economy shrinks, jobs are lost, and a downward spiral develops. The so called "job creators" aren't going to increase their production unless there is demand to support it. Those who support it don't have any money to buy. The cycle continues. And it sucks.
 
2012-10-02 11:52:23 PM

coco ebert: And Obama refused to let this guy anywhere near his economic team. Sigh.


How many times have I told you, you better not even dream about tellin' white folk the truth! You understand me? Shoot! Makin' White people riot! You better learn how to lie like me! I'm gonna find me a white man and lie to him right now!
 
2012-10-02 11:53:24 PM

NewportBarGuy: unyon: Income elasticity in the US now falls near the bottom of industrialized nations.

Combine the population of the countries that "beat" us on that chart. Still not buying it. You can still make it here. It's the main reason we get so many immigrants. Not for the welfare, because they believe they can make it here.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: 4/10

Not even trolling.

WorldCitizen: Statistics say you are wrong. You have a greater chance of moving up in the wealth ladder in the other developed democracies than you do in the United States. You can keep chanting "USA#1" all you want, but simply screaming it louder and louder does not make it true. We pride ourselves on having greater economic/social mobility than places like Europe, but it's not true anymore.

Yeah, well... They can have their economic austerity. I'll stand by my post.


Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...
 
2012-10-02 11:59:39 PM

SpaceyCat: The "American Dream" has been to own a house with a nice yard, have a "regular" family with a couple of kids, and a car or two. That dream was pretty much killed when Regan took office, but the decline started in the 60s. In order to afford a house with ONE kid, two adults need to be working full time jobs. Middle class incomes have pretty much stayed flat and the only reason they haven't tanked is because women started taking more jobs. Inflation has taken out most of the gains of wage increases.

Since the economy has transformed into more service driven from a construction/manufacturing driven economy, the only thing keeping it afloat are people who spend money, aka the middle class. With less money being available to spend, the economy shrinks, jobs are lost, and a downward spiral develops. The so called "job creators" aren't going to increase their production unless there is demand to support it. Those who support it don't have any money to buy. The cycle continues. And it sucks.



I knew I liked you :)

I'll absolutely agree with that. Wages are declining, hours worked (per job so they can avoid overtime/benefits) etc. etc... Yes, we have severe economic problems. We need to figure out how we get back jobs that pay people with a high school education $50-75K like union manufacturing used to. I have no idea how we do that. I wish I did. Trade schools? Copy the German education/technical training model? Something like that. I wish we'd have that discussion on the local level. We have a GREAT VOTECH school here in Newport. Produces some great boat builders, cooks, and beauty workers. They make good cash, the gifted ones.

We have serious issues and I'm not glossing over that. I do want to face them and find a solution. I just refuse to believe that it is over. It's not. We can still attain our hopes and dreams. I have begun living mine. The only thing I want is for more people to experience the joy I've had in getting there. heh... Sure, there was a whole LOT of suck. Tons. But, it worked out. I got lucky, very lucky.

The economic numbers and forecasts are not good. I am disheartened and angry at that. We need strong consumers with good paychecks to make our whole thing work. Every single QTR where those wages and take-home goes down... We're circling deeper down.

I just know one thing for certain... I do NOT trust this bullsh*t "20% across the board tax cut, but we'll limit deductions" thing to solve ANY of our economic problems. We're plugging along anemically, but with positive growth (minus inflation).

The service economy... Ha! These assholes sold that to us as an excuse for offshoring. "We'll keep the really cool jobs here! Trust us! All is well!"

Yes, we have serious issues. I just hope we can face them together and find a solution instead of another 2 years of screaming at each other like petulant children.

Hope you are well!
 
2012-10-03 12:02:22 AM
Came here for Hugo Stiglitz.
 
2012-10-03 12:02:34 AM

WorldCitizen: Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...


Yes. Proven how. What are the metrics we're using? Are we sure it's a good comparison? Country of 10,000,000 with excellent education and total safety net vs. country with meh education and bare safety net.

If a man in one of those countries risks everything, does the state still have a check for him? How so with the sole-proprietor?

I think your comparisons are not fully fleshed out, but I will entertain any other data you might have.
 
2012-10-03 12:03:19 AM

Richard Freckle: No Carlin reference yet, I am disappoint.

go back to sleep


Sorry I'm late.

"It's called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."
 
2012-10-03 12:03:49 AM
For a lot of us, the American Dream is the American Nightmare!

We didn't land on Plymouth Rock! PLYMOUTH ROCK LANDED ON US!
 
2012-10-03 12:04:43 AM
That man's wife could paint a mean looking vagina like flower.
 
2012-10-03 12:06:12 AM

fusillade762: /got nuthin'


I speak the most I-talian.
 
2012-10-03 12:07:33 AM
What was the dream? Grow up, get a job, get married, have 2 or 3 kids, buy a house, get old and die.

Yeah, that really sounds like a dream.

/My only persistent dream is being passed by branches from evil faced cypress tree to evil faced cypress tree.
//Since I was six.
 
2012-10-03 12:08:49 AM
1 percent, 99 percent, you all wish you were hung like me.
 
2012-10-03 12:10:08 AM
My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?
 
2012-10-03 12:11:28 AM

Atomic Spunk: My dream is to be balls deep in an Asian chick while a white girl licks my nuts and a Latina girl shoves her butthole in my face for me to lick. It will happen one day. It's not a goddamn myth, OK?


I REST MY CASE!
 
2012-10-03 12:11:35 AM
peasantswithpitchforks.com

R.I.P. Americone Dream
 
2012-10-03 12:12:05 AM
It must drive people like Stiglitz apeshiat when someone actually does make something of themselves in this country.
 
2012-10-03 12:12:36 AM
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot
 
2012-10-03 12:12:53 AM

NewportBarGuy: WorldCitizen: Even if it has been proven untrue multiple times? Is it because it's the feeling in your gut, and damn it, your gut must be right? And we're not just talking about Europe. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...

Yes. Proven how. What are the metrics we're using? Are we sure it's a good comparison? Country of 10,000,000 with excellent education and total safety net vs. country with meh education and bare safety net.

If a man in one of those countries risks everything, does the state still have a check for him? How so with the sole-proprietor?

I think your comparisons are not fully fleshed out, but I will entertain any other data you might have.


Here's a decent start.
 
2012-10-03 12:14:23 AM

sno man: Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.

No the dream wasn't to be that guy. The dream was the nice house, with a hot wife, 2 kids and a dog playing in the back yard, two shiny cars in the driveway, and the mortgage payed off before the kids were in college... And for maybe two generations it was possible... not likely, but possible.


There is great disagreement about what "The American Dream" is.
Some favor the land where anybody can get rich.
Some favor the land where everyone who works for it can own their own home.
These two are not all that compatible.
 
2012-10-03 12:14:28 AM
The American Dream would be a whole lot more accessible if Uncle Ben Shalom hadn't made it a priority to save his buddys' asses in the mortage business. The Fed works overtime to prop up prices. 

itmakessenseblog.com
 
2012-10-03 12:16:06 AM

Ennuipoet: Has become? Joseph the country was founded by rich, white, slave holding aristocrats who restricted suffrage to their class. It was always a myth. The economic elite have always given up just enough change to keep them from being hauled to an execution site in a cart.


WANT

i651.photobucket.com" width="800" height="520">
 
2012-10-03 12:18:59 AM
24.media.tumblr.com
 

I only listen to economist Donny Donowitz
 
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