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(ESPN)   New news on the NHL lockout is that there is no new news on the NHL lockout   (espn.go.com) divider line 70
    More: Fail, NHL, Pierre LeBrun, NHL lockout, NHLPA, Donald Fehr, deputy commissioner, Gary Bettman, collective bargaining agreement  
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580 clicks; posted to Sports » on 02 Oct 2012 at 5:12 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-02 05:07:02 PM  
Were their Wings Red or some other color? Sometimes I forget and that scares me....,


/fark Bettman with a rusty spike
 
2012-10-02 05:14:02 PM  
I'm starting to forget if the Yotes had the ugly tribal uniforms or the red uniforms.
 
2012-10-02 05:16:13 PM  
I'm starting to want to behead Bettman and the owners again.

/knew it wouldn't take long
//still, it came faster than I expected
 
2012-10-02 05:21:35 PM  
So they really didn't learn a dammed thing from 04/05.
 
2012-10-02 05:22:23 PM  
This is good news for the Columbus Blue Jackets
 
2012-10-02 05:23:02 PM  
I for one am totally shocked that negotiations between Donald Fehr and Gary Bettman are failing. Nope couldn't have seen that one coming. I do reckon I need to sit down and collect my thoughts as my life is in shambles at this disturbing news.
 
2012-10-02 05:23:22 PM  
Wooo! Kings are gonna be the Stanley Cup champions two years running at this rate!
 
2012-10-02 05:23:24 PM  
Get. It. Done.

I don't give a f*ck who wins and who loses, I'm a fan, and I want to watch hockey.
 
2012-10-02 05:24:04 PM  
I want NHL games so bad.... I want the Kings to repeat!!!!
 
2012-10-02 05:32:00 PM  
Duchene signed with Frölunda of the SEL. Expect more such signings to happen forthwith now that the SEL has opened the door to NHLers and the lock-out is about to cut into what would have been the regular season.
 
2012-10-02 05:42:47 PM  
The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame? You don't hire Fehr if you don't plan on being unmitigated dicks and watching the world burn. The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.
 
2012-10-02 05:47:21 PM  

NotEric: Wooo! Kings are gonna be the Stanley Cup champions two years running at this rate!


Nope. Courts ruled shortly after the last lockout that if the NHL isn't awarding the Stanley Cup, then another Canadian entity does. The league said they were fine with that, so if we lose this season, there's a chance it will go to the top amateur club in Canada.
 
2012-10-02 05:49:12 PM  

Ess_Aytch: NotEric: Wooo! Kings are gonna be the Stanley Cup champions two years running at this rate!

Nope. Courts ruled shortly after the last lockout that if the NHL isn't awarding the Stanley Cup, then another Canadian entity does. The league said they were fine with that, so if we lose this season, there's a chance it will go to the top amateur club in Canada.


So the Leafs actually have a chance?
 
2012-10-02 05:49:20 PM  

cptjeff: The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame? You don't hire Fehr if you don't plan on being unmitigated dicks and watching the world burn. The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.


Yes, but the owners are also totally unwilling to enact a revenue sharing plan and Fehr, to his credit, suggested that along with a cut in percentage. The owners aren't going to be able to make money until they become willing to do that in some way.
 
2012-10-02 05:50:31 PM  
Can we get to the REAL issue here and end shootouts?

10 minutes of 4 on 4 overtime during the regular season. If it ends in a tie, it's a tie.

Playoff overtime is continuous 5 on 5.
 
2012-10-02 05:50:41 PM  

nodubs: Ess_Aytch: NotEric: Wooo! Kings are gonna be the Stanley Cup champions two years running at this rate!

Nope. Courts ruled shortly after the last lockout that if the NHL isn't awarding the Stanley Cup, then another Canadian entity does. The league said they were fine with that, so if we lose this season, there's a chance it will go to the top amateur club in Canada.

So the Leafs actually have a chance?


You missed the part about being the TOP amateur club...
 
2012-10-02 05:53:27 PM  

Representative of the unwashed masses: I for one am totally shocked that negotiations between Donald Fehr and Gary Bettman are failing. Nope couldn't have seen that one coming. I do reckon I need to sit down and collect my thoughts as my life is in shambles at this disturbing news.


Donald Fehr and Bettman trying to come to an agreement is like Palestine and Israel trying to figure out what is the best time to host a beach volleyball tournament in Iran.

/wtf am I reading?
 
2012-10-02 05:55:05 PM  

cptjeff: The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame? You don't hire Fehr if you don't plan on being unmitigated dicks and watching the world burn. The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.


*sigh* That is not the problem. The players are good with a 50/50 split, but they want the owners to revenue share. I.e. subsidize the poor teams, even the playing field, which will drive salaries up. Now it can be said that one of the reasons the NFL is such a strong revenue generating machine is that they have a strong revenue sharing deal.
 
2012-10-02 05:57:13 PM  

Ess_Aytch: NotEric: Wooo! Kings are gonna be the Stanley Cup champions two years running at this rate!

Nope. Courts ruled shortly after the last lockout that if the NHL isn't awarding the Stanley Cup, then another Canadian entity does. The league said they were fine with that, so if we lose this season, there's a chance it will go to the top amateur club in Canada.


Huh, I guess Detroit will be rooting for Windsor, instead of the way around. I look forward to cheering the spitfires if the NHL doesn't play.

/And at least Michigan has a lot of good college hockey play as well
 
2012-10-02 05:58:53 PM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-02 06:00:13 PM  

cptjeff: The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.


But they had that system. It's what the *last* lockout was about. However, the owners (of course) couldn't help themselves, and barely was the ink dry before they were looking for ways to destroy the protections in it. So, they started signing players to super-long contracts - 10, 12, 15 years in length. It got so bad, that n'tthe league had to step in and implement rules to stop abuses like signing a 36-year-old to a contract that, technically, would have paid him long past his retirement date, but that wouldn't count against the salary cap at that point. Ed Snider, owner of the Flyers, would on one hand complain about the system and how it was being abused, and then go right out and try to sign a RFA for 15 years at some insane amount of money.

Now, the owners are coming back and saying "The system doesn't work! The players have to fix this, because it's not fair that they're letting us give them these insane contracts!" I can completely understand the players' actions.
 
2012-10-02 06:15:48 PM  
Saw this posted on reddit and it provided more insight into this lockout (and the last one) than any analysis I've read.

There is one person, and one person only, to blame for this lockout. His name is Jeremy Jacobs.

I know, you want to blame Bettman, you want to blame Fehr, you want to blame the system. But if there is one faceyou need to be angry at, it's Jacobs'.

Some of you are asking "Who is this guy, and why do I suddenly hate him?" Well, he is the owner of my beloved Boston Bruins, and he is the stingiest rich guy you can ever meet. Think Ebenezer Scrooge, with a mean streak.

As a Bruins fan, my hatred goes back decades. Remember when the Bruins made it to the finals in 88 & 90 just to lose to Gretzky and the Oilers? I do. And I also remember Adam Oates publicly blaming "ownership" for not being willing to pony up the extra cash to get the one player they needed to carry them over.

I remember the year after year of players developing into stars, only to not get paid like stars, staging holdouts, just to be traded away instead of getting resigned. For over 20 years in a row the Bruins reached the playoffs, most of them exiting in the first round, and Jacobs was cool with that because he was making money. Star after star left because he wouldn't pay for them. The only reason Ray Bourque stayed so long was because he took a much lower salary than he was worth in order to stay, drawing ire from players around the league who would lose salary because owners would say "Bourques stats are way better than your, and he only makes $XXX"

As a Bruins fan, I can rant for hours on the cheapness of this man. But how exactly does this affect the lockout?

Gary Bettman works for the owners, more specifically, he takes his orders from the Board of Governers. Jeremy Jacobs is the chairman of the Board of Governers.

Do not think for a second that the owners of the Islanders, Blue Jackets, Panthers, Stars, Devils, and other struggling teams are behind this lockout.

Yes, they know they need help. Yes, they understand a lockout is intended to get them the help they need. But they also know that they are going to lose so much money in a lockout that they might go bankrupt.

And let's also understand this: The owners are not a happy bunch of friends. The vast majority do not like each other. At all. Before Bettman came in as commissioner, the owners meetings were acrimonious, and were full of arguments. Bettman implemented the same system at owners meetings that every high school has at debate clubs: each seat gets a microphone, and when the red light in front of you is on, you can talk, when it goes out, your microphone gets muted. Bettman can actually control who talks at any given moment.

And there are tons of politics going on. If you want something changed, you need to get it approved by The Board of Governers (Jacobs). But if you want that thing approved, you gotta do something for him.. Vote whatever he votes. You go against him, kiss goodbye any dream you had of hosting an all-star game, a draft, a Winter Classic, anything.

AKA, a 'unanimous' vote by the owners for the lockout. (a full vote was called for by none other than Jacobs, and one could imagine the piercing look he gave the crowd when he did it)

So why are we at a standstill? Because Jeremy Jacobs knows that a healthy league is in his best interest. But he is not interested in a profit sharing system among the owners. He is not interested in a system that will benefit the struggling teams at the expense of his own pocket.

What he is willing to do, however, is implement a system that will help the struggling teams, as long as it benefits him as well. By rolling back salaries and lowering the share going to players, it will help the struggling teams make ends meet, and also, no coincidence, it will benefit him just as much. More surplus money for his pockets.

He is the man running the show, Bettman is just the public face. Jacobs wants a system that will help all the teams, even those that don't need it, even if that means doing this again in a few years because the faulty system isn't getting fixed. Jeremy Jacobs is the reason the league won't listen to PA's offers that actually address the issues causing the problems.

As long as he is the Chairman, actually, as long as he is an owner, things will never change. Things will never get better, and even if they resolve this lockout, without changing the revenue sharing system we will find ourselves in the same place when the new one expires.

The man has never accepted no for an answer. That isn't going to change.

Either the players fold, again, or the season will be cancelled, again because Jacobs doesn't care. He is rich enough that it won't hurt him financially (because the salary cap has made him so much damn money during the last CBA, and he will more than make up any loss over the next CBA), and he does not care about the owners that a lost season will destroy financially.

Until these other owners face the million dollar fine and speak out against Jacobs, he will go on knowing he has the league by the balls, and he will again get his way.

And as any Bruins fan of the last 20 years will tell you, there is little doubt that the man would let the league fold completely than relent and not get his way.


Until teams agree among themselves on a fair way to share revenue we, the fans, will have to go through a lockout and possible season loss every time the CBA is up because the owners will always use the 3-5 teams that lose a lot of money from HRR to drive down the player's share. Most teams break even or make/lose a couple of millions while a few teams make millions.

Until those teams that make millions are willing to share that money or they cut/move some of the underperforming teams we will always have this problem with the NHL.
 
2012-10-02 06:35:03 PM  

Rev.K: Can we get to the REAL issue here and end shootouts?

10 minutes of 4 on 4 overtime during the regular season. If it ends in a tie, it's a tie.

Playoff overtime is continuous 5 on 5.


YES!
 
2012-10-02 06:47:28 PM  

Rev.K: Can we get to the REAL issue here and end shootouts?

10 minutes of 4 on 4 overtime during the regular season. If it ends in a tie, it's a tie.

Playoff overtime is continuous 5 on 5.


10 min. of 4 on 4 OT, yes. But I can't see them going back to ties at this point.

As I said last year, it should be-

Wins in regulation or OT= 3 pts
Shootout wins= 2 pts
Shootout loss= 1 pt
Lose in regulation or OT= YOU GET NOTHING!

Of course, under that system, LA never makes the playoffs last season and Dallas takes the 8 seed.
 
2012-10-02 06:58:45 PM  
One copy of NHL 98+ One Sega Genesis + two computer players set to the highest difficulty = Lockout over
 
2012-10-02 06:59:33 PM  
ESPN3 will start carrying KHL games tomorrow.
 
2012-10-02 07:08:24 PM  

AKTurkey: This is good news for the Columbus Blue Jackets


Even if the whole season is lost, we will still find a way to come in last place.
 
2012-10-02 07:28:03 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: ESPN3 will start carrying KHL games tomorrow.


Select ones for now, and if interest is there they'll ramp up the coverage. I like it, hopefully the NHL will realize giving the KHL more and more exposure, with their superstars jumping ship for the lockout, is a very...very... bad business move.

The KHL is out to prove something to the players, that they can treat them just as well as the NHL. The longer the players are there, the more influence the KHL has on them and younger players the vets will eventually talk to.

The last thing the NHL wants is to fight over their hockey 'monopoly' of the worlds greatest with another league.
 
2012-10-02 07:35:14 PM  
And yet another situation showing how patently insane it is having league commissioners who represent the owners instead of representing the league as a separate entity
 
2012-10-02 07:37:21 PM  

Foaming: So they really didn't learn a dammed thing from 04/05.


what happened on april 5th?
 
2012-10-02 07:42:10 PM  
I have a brilliant money making idea for the NHL! Take profitable NHL franchises and put them down south where there guaranteed to make money.

/preferably in the desert
 
2012-10-02 07:53:27 PM  

Rev.K: Can we get to the REAL issue here and end shootouts?

10 minutes of 4 on 4 overtime during the regular season. If it ends in a tie, it's a tie.

Playoff overtime is continuous 5 on 5.


Seconded. Ain't nothing wrong with a tie, but there is everyting wrong with the farking shoot out.
 
2012-10-02 07:56:31 PM  
I love the game of hockey and I enjoy watching the NHL, but life is way too short to worry about this.

Don't think for a second that a group of billionaires and another group of overpaid jocks give a single shiat about what any of us feel or think.
 
2012-10-02 07:56:42 PM  

cptjeff: The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame? You don't hire Fehr if you don't plan on being unmitigated dicks and watching the world burn. The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.


I was under the impression that the salary cap was supposed to fix all the issues, of least that's what they said last strike. Oh well enough is enough for me, I'm done with hockey.
 
2012-10-02 08:38:33 PM  

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: I love the game of hockey and I enjoy watching the NHL, but life is way too short to worry about this.

Don't think for a second that a group of billionaires and another group of overpaid jocks give a single shiat about what any of us feel or think.


Well, the owners definitely don't give a fark about the fans. Players care a bit more, IMO.
 
2012-10-02 08:42:15 PM  

zippolight2002: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: ESPN3 will start carrying KHL games tomorrow.

Select ones for now, and if interest is there they'll ramp up the coverage. I like it, hopefully the NHL will realize giving the KHL more and more exposure, with their superstars jumping ship for the lockout, is a very...very... bad business move.

The KHL is out to prove something to the players, that they can treat them just as well as the NHL. The longer the players are there, the more influence the KHL has on them and younger players the vets will eventually talk to.

The last thing the NHL wants is to fight over their hockey 'monopoly' of the worlds greatest with another league.


If they can keep their planes in the air...
 
2012-10-02 09:02:58 PM  

ddam: I want NHL games so bad.... I want the Kings to repeat!!!!


You and me both, dude. Also, it really sucks to not know when the banner will be raised.

/STM
 
2012-10-02 09:11:18 PM  
P-Bruins Home Opener, next Friday!
 
2012-10-02 09:21:30 PM  

zippolight2002: The KHL is out to prove something to the players, that they can treat them just as well as the NHL.


Besides letting them die on the bench because the farking arena ambulance went home after two periods because they were bored and drunk.

It is an interesting question, though--the KHL positions itself as the leading competitor to the NHL (and their robber-baron owners throw around the paychecks to match), but what is actually the preferred alternative league to watch? KHL? Sweden? Czech?

Me, I'm sticking with NCAA, but I have my loyalties.
 
2012-10-02 09:47:25 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: ESPN3 will start carrying KHL games tomorrow.


I have directv so I'm farked
 
2012-10-02 10:24:21 PM  
Three lockouts in 18 years. Three (3). One, two, three, THREE lockouts.

But, it's totally the players' fault. Completely. Entirely. Because I looked at my paycheck, and my college diploma on the wall, and I'm bitter. What a f*cking asshole Shea Weber is for not simply signing an extension with Nashville immediately after the season that would have paid him literally in lima beans.
 
2012-10-02 10:27:23 PM  

Killer Cars: But, it's totally the players' fault. Completely. Entirely. Because I looked at my paycheck, and my college diploma on the wall, and I'm bitter. What a f*cking asshole Shea Weber is for not simply signing an extension with Nashville immediately after the season that would have paid him literally in lima beans.


I'm waiting for the "Without the owners, there wouldn't *BE* an NHL to play for!" argument that was tossed around so much during the NFL lockout.
 
2012-10-02 10:39:54 PM  

Joe_diGriz: I'm waiting for the "Without the owners, there wouldn't *BE* an NHL to play for!" argument that was tossed around so much during the NFL lockout.


Someone really stretched themselves and counted all the way to cauliflower by making that argument in an earlier NHL lockout thread. It was an impressive display of commitment, I must say.
 
2012-10-02 10:42:29 PM  

Killer Cars: Someone really stretched themselves and counted all the way to cauliflower by making that argument in an earlier NHL lockout thread. It was an impressive display of commitment, I must say.


I should've guessed it already came up. It's really funny that, for some reason, the owners are allowed to make lots of money, but the players should just be happy to have a job.
 
2012-10-02 10:59:58 PM  
i.qkme.me
 
2012-10-02 11:16:43 PM  

Joe_diGriz: Killer Cars: Someone really stretched themselves and counted all the way to cauliflower by making that argument in an earlier NHL lockout thread. It was an impressive display of commitment, I must say.

I should've guessed it already came up. It's really funny that, for some reason, the owners are allowed to make lots of money, but the players should just be happy to have a job.


Paul Bissonette said to one of his (many) hecklers who ripped the players for not taking a deal that the players put their health on the line out there and they should be paid for that. And he's right. I'd pull up the actual tweet but I can't find it right now. It was on or around Sept. 15 when the lockout officially began.

In truth, hockey and football players should be paid the most since they are at a higher risk of serious injury in their sports. Basketball players can fall in behind those two sports. Baseball players should be last and never make more than $3 million a year.
 
2012-10-02 11:52:05 PM  
N H Who?
 
2012-10-03 12:30:40 AM  
N H Who?

It's the No Hockey Legation.

/We're losing money, so we'l do a lockout.
//Now we're losing more money.
 
2012-10-03 12:31:57 AM  

Slaves2Darkness: cptjeff: The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame? You don't hire Fehr if you don't plan on being unmitigated dicks and watching the world burn. The owners aren't going to play under a system that guarantees that about 2/3 of them won't be able to make money, and the players should get used to that and accept the 50/50 split that everyone knows they're going to wind up with anyway.

*sigh* That is not the problem. The players are good with a 50/50 split, but they want the owners to revenue share. I.e. subsidize the poor teams, even the playing field, which will drive salaries up. Now it can be said that one of the reasons the NFL is such a strong revenue generating machine is that they have a strong revenue sharing deal.


The cap is tied to revenue. Yes, revenue sharing would be good, but salaries will never be driven up as a percentage of revenue- because they are fixed as a proportion of revenue, and will be in any deal, the NHLPA's moronic proposal to separate it aside. 3 years where they say it will be at a lower percentage, though thatt relies on current growth numbers, which the NHL and most outside analysts say are at an unsustainable pace. If the NHL's growth slows, the players are asking for a raise for three years, than back to the current plan that's bankrupting a lot of owners. The inclusion of revenue sharing is good, but everything else about that deal is designed for the NHLPA to be able to claim one thing in PR talking to the fans while actually asking for a bigger slice of the pie.


Joe_diGriz: But they had that system.


They have NEVER had that system, or anything close to it. The whole percentage of revenue bit is a consequence of the cap- players get exactly 57% of the NHL's revenue, every year. There's a mechanism known as "escrow" to convert the numbers on contracts to what they actually get paid to bring it in line with that 57%.

And despite the various claims here, the players have never indicated a willingness to go anywhere near 50/50. If they had, we'd probably have a deal right now. Instead, they're lying through their teeth about what their proposal really is.

Joe_diGriz: So, they started signing players to super-long contracts - 10, 12, 15 years in length. It got so bad, that n'tthe league had to step in and implement rules to stop abuses


That has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental issue, which is the percentage of revenue that goes to players, which is set by the CBA. The structure of contracts is something that will be addressed, but the owners don't care all that much about how salaries are distributed within the percentage that goes to players.

And have you ever heard of a tragedy of the commons? Everybody acting in their own best interests as a team (winning, trying to draw in fans) does not always lead to a perfect world like free market nuts would have you believe. The public good is sacrificed for any private gain you can scratch out, which is why you have rules and regulations to govern what actors can do. Which is what a CBA is. The NHL, as a collective whole trying to act for the common good of all its teams, is trying to take a break from competing with each other so they can modify the system and make it better for everyone. Changing the CBA is the only way they can do that- otherwise, it's collusion.

Stop white knighting the players. They're trying to squeeze as much money out of the league as possible, and they're not negotiating in any sort of good faith on the core issue. The NHL is at least ready to budge from its position- indeed, it already has- but they're not going to make a further move until the NHLPA shows its willing to play. And the NHL will win. Players need those paychecks, owners can wait.
 
kab
2012-10-03 01:56:44 AM  

cptjeff: The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, and people think that the owners are the only ones to blame?


Absolutely. Handing out overpaying, absurdly long contracts like they're candy on halloween, and then crying poverty isn't taken all that seriously. No one holds a gun to their head.

Players can, and are, simply going elsewhere to play. The owners can sit and rot, frankly. Maybe they'll learn they're not the reason that tickets are sold.
 
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