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(Google) NewsFlash Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people still allowed to vote in PA   (google.com) divider line 314
    More: NewsFlash, voter ID, dead people, League of Women Voters, provisional ballots, illegal immigrants, Pennsylvania Republicans, swing states, Tom Corbett  
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13303 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 11:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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Archived thread
2012-10-02 11:14:20 AM
10 votes:
Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still
2012-10-02 11:14:03 AM
10 votes:
The dead always favor Democrats because they no longer live in the fear it takes to maintain a Republican affiliation.
2012-10-02 11:17:50 AM
9 votes:
The lawmakers who passed this came flat out and said they were doing so to help Romney win PA, so good.

If laws like this HAVE to be implemented, do it now for the election four years from now, so everyone has plenty of time to get an ID. Not a month before the election.
2012-10-02 11:16:49 AM
8 votes:
"Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

Oh, the Republicans are going to be pissed off they're getting what they wanted, but not in time to achieve their disenfranchisement goals.
2012-10-02 11:32:46 AM
7 votes:
Shiat, entire county results can be altered in an instant with the touch of a button or loading of Flash memory on an electronic voting machine or by modification of the centralized results database, and we're concerned that someone may drive around to multiple polling places in person?
2012-10-02 11:22:53 AM
7 votes:
Voter ID is a fine idea. The problem is that Republicans want to push these laws through as fast as they can making it harder for people that typically vote Democratic. Students, minorities and the poor will all have a more difficult time voting.

Want to do it right? Do the ID part of the law first. Make sure every citizen has an ID (for free) so they can vote. Then put the ID requirement for voting through. That is, if you're really interesting in preventing voter fraud and making sure everyone can vote.
2012-10-02 11:17:29 AM
7 votes:
No, sorry, you can't throw up eleventh-hour barriers to vote and claim that they won't have a substantial impact.
2012-10-02 11:17:25 AM
7 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.
2012-10-02 11:32:40 AM
6 votes:

slykens1: I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


Remember kids, if you lack the basic human empathy to imagine yourself in another person's shoes...

if you think everyone everywhere is exactly like you...

if you found yourself wondering why the poor black folks in N.O. didn't just pack the wife, dog, and 2.3 kids into the SUV and put a few nights at the Baton Rouge Holiday Inn on the Amex....


... you just might have what it takes to be a Modern RepublicanTM

Apply today at the segregated country club nearest you!
2012-10-02 11:24:49 AM
6 votes:

Marine1: With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?


old people and poor people who are still americans with a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.
2012-10-02 11:23:00 AM
6 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


It means you have to schedule time off from work to travel to and wait around at whatever office or registry is issuing those IDs, and while that may certainly be possible, the closer to a minimum wage job you have, the stricter the supervisor tends to be about schedules. So, maybe it takes a month or two to schedule that time off. No problem... you'll get your ID in December.
... too late.

That's why it's unreasonable to push through a new voter ID requirement a month before a national election, while it's perfectly reasonable for the judge to say "fine, this law takes effect starting next year. People will have almost two years before the next national election to get their ID, rather than four weeks."

The only people who could possibly have a problem with this are those who were explicitly relying on this to unfairly affect the outcome of this election. In other words, complaining about it means that you're in favor of disenfranchising people.
2012-10-02 11:21:34 AM
6 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Lots of people who are "poor" work at jobs that don't give them time off, or if they don't work, may not have a vehicle, or have to rely on public transportation that doesn't go past whereever the ID office is located and is open. Some states closed ID offices in areas of heavy Democratic populations, others changed the times they were open to very restrictive hours. Other states don't come out with the requirements for the ID's, so someone needing an ID may have to make multiple trips to the office to get all the documents.

/still don't see what the actual goal is, do you?
2012-10-02 11:18:26 AM
6 votes:
Ha-ha.
Judge said there was no first-hand evidence of voter fraud and they couldn't provide any.
2012-10-02 11:16:52 AM
5 votes:
There goes Romney's last chance at winning Pennsylvania. If they can't keep the poor, elderly, and college students from voting, he's done.

Hard to feel bad about this.
2012-10-02 11:15:27 AM
5 votes:
Much to the chagrin of the Republicans, Democracy still somewhat exists in PA.

Maybe next year, cons.
2012-10-02 11:15:18 AM
5 votes:
Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.
2012-10-02 11:15:11 AM
5 votes:

Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still


I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?
2012-10-02 12:10:00 PM
4 votes:
Not that I disagree in principle with ID EVENTUALLY being required to vote, but why is the party of "small government" creating more red tape when so little actual fraud exists?

And why is the party that cries "foul" when ANY inconvenience is imposed on the RIGHT to "keep and bear" arms (an activity that kills thousands yearly) deadset on putting up roadblocks to the RIGHT to vote?

Can't the same counter-arguments be used? Won't real fraudsters find a way to fake ID's, just like "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", and "he would've stabbed someone if he didn't have a gun because criminals will find a way"? 

I guess it's kind of like being a fundamentalist Christian who's supposed to "love thy neighbor" but at the same time froths at the mouth about Ayn Rand and how poor people are just "lazy" and "entitled" socialists who should be allowed to die.
2012-10-02 11:48:42 AM
4 votes:
History of voter fraud: almost nonexistent.
History of voter disenfranchisement: rich, detailed and plentiful.

/White power: trying to cure to problem of the poor and minorities voting since Jim Crow.
TWX
2012-10-02 11:25:36 AM
4 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


I'd rather have this kind of voter fraud than the kind of voter fraud perpetuated in Florida in 2000...

I'd also rather see all states use paper ballots with optical scanners. They have a paper trail for manual counting and marking a line with a pen between two dots is about as failsafe as one can get.

Every citizen has the constitutional right to vote. Anyone who denies them that right should be prosecuted and thrown in jail. If states want all registered voters to have ID, then the burden should be on the states to compare their voter rolls to their state ID system, and to notify all registered voters without a record of ID that they need it, and then the state should see to getting them that ID. If not, the state is disenfranchising them through its own action.
2012-10-02 11:23:30 AM
4 votes:

FlashHarry: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

any bites yet?

funny, though, that the only voter fraud stories seem to involve republicans like this nathan sproul scumbag.


Dontcha just love the RW trolls blurting "DEMONCRAT VOTER FRAUD~!" when many stories are sprouting up recently about voter fraud involving the GOP.

When it's about power, Republicans pretty much will sell their soul to Satan in order to get it.
2012-10-02 11:19:29 AM
4 votes:
Making it harder for people to vote vs. the extremely small amount of voter fraud that occurs is just not a good trade off. Voting is a right, not a bunch of hoops to jump through, so we should err on the side of it being as easy as possible.
2012-10-02 11:17:32 AM
4 votes:
Great troll. Bet that State Speaker of the House will be dissapointed that he can't automatically deliver his state to Rmoney.
2012-10-02 01:03:53 PM
3 votes:
About half the people in my grandmother's building (an independent-living place for seniors in Pennsylvania,) didn't have an up-to-date photo ID last month. Most had driver's licenses that had expired after they quit driving, some older ladies never learned to drive at all (up until lately public transit was more than adequate, and a lot of the widows had husbands who drove, which was enough in their day,) and some, mainly from rural areas, had never had one. It just worked out that way.

The DMV is not on any of the bus lines and is nearly forty minutes away by car. They have a shuttle service that takes them to doctors' appointments, but with a five-story building of senior citizens, you pretty much have to book that two weeks in advance. The little town has exactly three taxicabs, one of which has been down because the driver just had a baby, and a lot of the residents don't have family locally to get them out there. Things did not look good, and after Republican politicians admitted it was going to help Romney, a number of my Grandma's friends found themselves contemplating a party change.

Luckily, my grandmother is one of those ladies who's good at organizing things and still fairly well-known in the community. She had my little brother drive her to our old high school and asked if any of the students would be interested in a community-service project. (They need 200 community-service hours to graduate and you need 50 hours of supervised driving with a permit to get a license in PA.) She persuaded the Civics teacher to offer class credit, convinced the principal to excuse participants from classes and set up a schedule whereby students could be excused for part of a school day to drive seniors to get their IDs. I live too far away now to come and help, so I sent Grandma a check to help with the gas money and my brother traded shifts at work so he could drive Grandma's friends as well -partly because he's a loyal grandson, but mainly because the ladies at the building made a huge amount of delicious food for the three-day affair and bachelors would gladly attend the opening of a can of tennis balls if Grandma and her posse were cooking.

Most of the juniors and senior students with cars and a few who borrowed their parents' participated, more for the time off school than anything else, and Grandma reported with great pride that all twenty-seven eighteen-year-olds in the senior class are now registered to vote. (It isn't a very big school.) And even though these senior citizens' polling place is within walking distance (at the fire department,) the students have offered to return in November to give rides again, which is wonderful for all the ones with arthritis and replacement-hips and whatnot who'd been trudging out the half-mile year after year. The program was so successful that Grandma and a few of the other seniors who still drive, but not at night, are working to get licensed and open a AAA-approved traffic school, so the next crop of high-school kids can learn safe driving and the seniors can all get rides to the movies and such in the evenings.

"It's a bad law, Spidey," she told me, "but even if they reverse it, as well they should, I'm a little glad they passed it. Would you believe some of those children have been coming back just to spend time with us?"

So yeah. The vagaries of party politics, assumed fraud and miscellaneous kerfuffle are no match for my Grandma.
2012-10-02 12:32:57 PM
3 votes:

Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:
adopt a pet
purchase a home
purchase an automobile
purchase a gun
obtain a bank account
obtain a credit card
obtain a passport
write a check
make a credit card purchase
apply for a loan to purchase anything
to prove your age
to get married
to receive a marriage license
to drive
to buy a house
to close on a house
to get medical care
to get on a plane
to get insurance on anything
to get a job
to get a post office box
to get a hunting license
to get a fishing license
to get a business license
to cash a paycheck
rent an apartment
rent a hotel room
rent a car
rent furniture
rent tools and equipment
receive welfare
receive social security
receive food stamps
buy cigarettes
buy alcohol
buy a bus ticket
buy a cell phone
buy any antihistimine
go in to a casino
go in to a bar
go to college
have your water turned on
have your electricity turned on
have your cable turned on
have your gas turned on
obtain trash pick up service
pick up a package from the post office
pick up a package from fed ex
pick up a package from ups
pick up a prescription

So the people without id to vote never do any of these thigs either, right?


I have a pet
obtained a credit card online
write checks
make purchases with a credit card
gotten medical care
gotten insurance
received a fishing license
buy cigarettes
bought bus tickets
bought a prepaid cell phone
cashed a paycheck
opened a bank account
had water, electric and cable turned on
went into a bar
went to college
obtained trash pick up
and pick up prescriptions

all without providing an ID that would be acceptable to vote with. I could probably do even more on that list, but got tired of your ridiculous list. I dont know which state you live in, but god damn you got some bureaucratic douches in your state government.
2012-10-02 12:06:34 PM
3 votes:

iheartscotch: someonelse: iheartscotch: The actual issue is people that live in two states. New York and Florida for example. It is POSSIBLE that a snow bird could POTENTIALLY vote in both states. I know, I know; it's a bit of a stretch; but that doesn't change the fact that it could happen.

Voter ID laws don't fix that.

Never said they did; I feel that each state should compare voter rolls and actually investigate duplicates.

As to the voter id issue; you are now required to show an employer your social security card and your id. You are required to show your social security card if you rent a house. You are required to produce your id if you are pulled over. You are required to produce your id if you expect to pay instate tuition at a college.

A lot of important things require Ids; I understand it is possible to loose your Id; I understand it is hard to replace a lost id. I feel that the most important right as an American citizen should be protected from fraud as much as possible. Would you be in favor of blood scans to prove identity as aposed to a physical Id?


I am in favor of showing a shred of evidence that in-person voter fraud is actually a serious problem before spending tons of money to fix it. A fiscally conservative approach, believe it or not.
2012-10-02 12:04:24 PM
3 votes:

slykens1: I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


That argument becomes bullshiat in this context when you consider that most of the original voter ID laws proposed carefully picked which IDs were OK and which were not. Many original drafts explicitly excluded student IDs, regardless of photo or expiration date; and explicitly included concealed carry permits, hunting licenses, and NRA membership cards, despite lack of photo and in some cases expiration.
2012-10-02 12:03:47 PM
3 votes:

slykens1: I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


You know, sometimes I struggle to understand how people can get through life without legs. Having legs that I use everyday, it's hard for me to imagine life without them. And that's why resist all efforts to make polling places wheelchair accessible.

Leeds: Oh my goodness, what if they forget where to vote, or their car breaks down or they hit a deer on the way to the polling stations? We clearly need to send drivers out to pick up every resident in the state to make sure that they get to the polls on time!!! Democrats actually believe this crap


I'd like to hear a good argument why election day shouldn't be a mandated national holiday. Give everyone the day off to vote and volunteer at polling locations. Why not?
2012-10-02 12:00:47 PM
3 votes:

Leeds: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.

THE ID's ARE ALREADY FREE.

That's right, FREE.

As in, there is no cost to get a photo ID in PA so that you can vote.

From the government page linked just above:
Since the Pennsylvania Voter ID law was enacted in March, PennDOT has been working closely with the Department of State to ensure that every voter has the opportunity to obtain photo identification. If you don't possess photo identification for voting purposes, you will be able to obtain a new Department of State voter identification card for free by visiting a PennDOT Driver License Center.

How can people in this thread still be pretending that the normal $12 for a 4 year drivers license still applies here? That $3 a year fee is not even applicable, as these ID's are FREE.

// Sorry for all the yelling, I'm pissed that people are being misled by the Democrats



Ever lost your photo ID and had to go get a replacement? I have, and in Pennsylvania no less. Was in college at the time, and didn't have ready access to my birth certificate, social security card, or even a piece of postmarked mail with my name and address on it; my campus mailbox did not qualify as establishing residence. I had to get a birth certificate sent up from my parents, go get a replacement social security card (one weekday during business hours spent sitting in a shiatty government office in line), and the go get the drivers license (another weekday during business hours spent shiatty in a shiatty government office in line).

They may be free, but you don't just walk into a booth, get your picture taken and write your name on it. Students, the poor, and the elderly are less likely to have immediate access to the documents they need to get a FREE id, and the poor are less likely to be able to just take a work day off to go sit in line.


Another fun point -- this is PA, not FL, but in FL a big part of the republican disenfranchisement push is to prevent ex-convicts from voting. Seems more reasonable, right? Cause its just about the actions of those people, and not some correlated dog whistle racism? Well, in FL, ex-convicts are mostly majorities. In Maine and Vermont, which are both 94% white and have corresponding prison populations, the GOP strongly supports programs to let current convicts, regardless of offense, vote from prison before they have completed serving their sentence. You can continue making just blind, stupid, bullshiat arguments that this isn't targeted disenfranchisement; but the GOP's actions and policies clearly outline, "minority ex-convict should not be able to vote, while a white convict should."
2012-10-02 11:57:08 AM
3 votes:
A judge on Tuesday blocked Pennsylvania's divisive voter identification requirement from going into effect on Election Day, delivering a hard-fought victory to Democrats VOTERS...

FTFY
2012-10-02 11:52:17 AM
3 votes:

olddinosaur: someonelse: olddinosaur: There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.

citation needed

Go to google and key in "illegal immigrant voting," and you will find about 8.5 million of these citation thingies you love so well.

RTFP, doofus.


A google search for "olddinosaur ate my pudding" brings up over a million results.

Clearly, this is proof you ate my pudding.
2012-10-02 11:49:24 AM
3 votes:
Almost 250 posts into this thread, and there hasn't been a single thing posted demonstrating voter fraud that would have been prevented by requiring someone to present an ID at the polls.
2012-10-02 11:43:50 AM
3 votes:

Giltric: How do you get a job without proper ID? How do you cash the check the job gives you without ID?


The answer to both: Under the table jobs that pay straight cash.

They're pretty common.
2012-10-02 11:43:18 AM
3 votes:
if this is such an issue rather than a last minute attempt to steal an election why wasn't it a major issue in 2009-2011 when there was no presidential election right around the corner
2012-10-02 11:32:57 AM
3 votes:
Nevermind the complete lack of evidence of that being a problem in PA, subby. Simple logic: if the solution disenfranchises more viable voters than the number of fraudulent votes it prevents (by, oh, infinity percent or so), then the law is retarded and is itself a thinly veiled attempt at fraud via the system.
2012-10-02 11:32:25 AM
3 votes:
Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.
2012-10-02 11:29:49 AM
3 votes:

Alonjar: WTF? You dont have to show ID?

What could possibly go wrong?


Someone could spend a day driving around and hitting as many as a dozen polling places (given travel time and time standing in line)? Why, they could vote 11 more times than others...

Pennsylvania 2008 results:
Barack Obama 3,192,316
John McCain 2,586,496
Ralph Nader 41,520
Bob Barr 19,926


... resulting in less of an effect on the election than .1% of Bob Barr's supporters did.
2012-10-02 11:28:29 AM
3 votes:

CravenMorehead: Voter ID is a fine idea. The problem is that Republicans want to push these laws through as fast as they can making it harder for people that typically vote Democratic. Students, minorities and the poor will all have a more difficult time voting.

Want to do it right? Do the ID part of the law first. Make sure every citizen has an ID (for free) so they can vote. Then put the ID requirement for voting through. That is, if you're really interesting in preventing voter fraud and making sure everyone can vote.


Part of the problem with that is a good number of people are dead set against any form of national id. Damned if I know why. There is no reason you can't issue a single card today that can link all my id's, passport included, and have it be the same on a national level.

As for the cost, I just renewed my drivers license this weekend. $24 for 4 years. and that is in Jersey, I'd imagine other states are cheaper. If you can't make a $6 yearly investment in something that is going to make your life so much easier, well, you probably shouldn't have a say in anything to begin with.
2012-10-02 11:25:29 AM
3 votes:
Good. I now live in PA, and hearing the stories about how people were being turned away by idiot clerks at the DMV upset me. I finally got my voter registration card in the mail the other day. Going to put it to good use.
2012-10-02 11:25:21 AM
3 votes:

slykens1: qorkfiend: Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

Funnily enough, if you want an ID to vote PennDOT will give you one for free.

Oh, and your nursing home ID and student ID are OK too if they have an expiration date.

I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


Oh, ok. Since you can't think of any way it could happen, it must be impossible.
2012-10-02 11:22:14 AM
3 votes:

OhLuverly: Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?


It is a poll tax and thus violates the constitution. The right to vote is contingent on showing up, nothing else.
2012-10-02 11:20:39 AM
3 votes:
The GOP was so close to having the wasteful bureaucratic government restriction on rights they love so much. What a shame.
2012-10-02 11:15:02 AM
3 votes:
good.

/farking republicans.
2012-10-02 11:13:59 AM
3 votes:
The troll is strong...
2012-10-02 03:19:20 PM
2 votes:
Here's my quick and dirty research on this topic:

"The state of Pennsylvania found that 758,000 registered voters lacked a Department of Motor Vehicles ID"

"Nevertheless, we identified hundreds of cases of voting irregularities [in select precincts] that warrant further investigation." Out of 5.7 million votes

Schmidt's report does identify some cases of apparently illegal conduct: one woman who appears to have voted twice in two different voting divisions; one case of voter impersonation (but not in the 2012 primary, which the report focused on); 23 cases of un-registered people convincing poll workers to let them sign "voter slips" in violation of procedure and cast machine votes; one polling place in the Northeast where six more votes were tallied on machines than voters who signed in (curiously, the extra votes were all cast in the Republican primary in a predominantly Democratic division); and seven non-US citizens voting over the last 10 years.

So we are making it harder for 758,000 voters to vote to help stop hundres of voter fraud, not thousands or tens of thousands but hundreds! WTF are we wasting our time and money on here.
2012-10-02 01:40:54 PM
2 votes:

iheartscotch: Lionel Mandrake: iheartscotch: Lionel Mandrake: iheartscotch: I also said; Ids are required for a lot of important things. Why not voting?

Where there's no problem, no solution is needed.

Make the IDs free and easy to obtain and there is no problem.

This seems to come up every election; the laws tend to make replacing a lost Id free and easy. It's almost as though everybody procrastinated 4 or 2 or whatever number of years. Would you prefer blood scans as aposed to a physical id that you can loose?

It's not free and easy, especially for the elderly who, in addition to having a generally difficult time getting places and waiting in lines, often do not have or long ago lost their birth certificates, meaning more money and lines. I think young(er) people assume that because it's pretty easy for them, it must be no big deal for everyone, which is not true. But, still, and I can't stress this enough, voter ID laws address a problem that does not exist. Set a long-term goal to get everyone a photo ID card that is available to all free of charge, and we have no problem. Still, there is also no "problem" that it will solve.

/ also; have you been denying them your essence, mandrake?

For now, but one of these days I'm going to unleash all my essence at once. Boy will the wife be surprised.

Maybe we need to do the purple finger thing. I can see how it would be hard for old people. My granny would probably not have been able to replace an id.

I'd have to disagree; I think voter fraud happens. Wether it takes the form of extreme pressure from a boss or religion; or actual fraudulent votes I don't know; but the election is too important to some people for it never happen ever.

/ it's only paranoia if I'm wrong

// you should definetly unleash your essence all at once; your ham sandwich ratio will probably increase as a result


I'm sure fraud happens. Where doesn't fraud happen? I don't think succumbing to pressure from your boss counts unless you are filling out your absentee ballot with him looking over your shoulder for some reason. It is illegal to pay someone to vote a certain way, but to pressure/shame them? I don't know. In any case it would be very few, it wouldn't favor one side over the other, and ID laws wouldn't stop it.

If we did the purple finger thing it would serve only one purpose: to somehow make people feel better about something that isn't a problem.

This 'toon is from TX, but applies to every state:

i159.photobucket.com

A LOT more eligible voters would loose their vote than fraudulent voters. By factors in the thousands.

Calm down, everyone, the Republic is safe...we can take our time with this.
2012-10-02 01:05:53 PM
2 votes:
Joe Blowme:so you are all for applying the same checks on voting as they do on guns? Got it.

Let me state it succinctly for you:

[Many] Republicans argue against greater gun control (including more stringent ID requirements) because they view it as an unjust restriction on a Constitutional right.

[These specific] Republicans argue for more stringent ID requirements on voting because it would help them win elections, even though it can be viewed as an unjust restriction on a Constitutional right..

That is hypocrisy. My feelings on whether we should have voter ID laws or not are irrelevant to that. But thank you for avoiding the issue entirely, it helps me with ensure that I give your opinion the appropriate weight and merit.

I do support ID requirements for voting. I do not support implementing them in the manner in which they are attempting to implement them - i.e., in a lead-up to a very divisive federal election. I do not support the implementation of any changes in voting requirements or process that could potentially disenfranchise voters in a major federal election that would occur within the next calendar year.
2012-10-02 12:44:22 PM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: bartink


I missed the point of my post. Your list, while inaccurate, is irrelevant.

Acting incredulous over a list is a red herring. The data says that a large number of people don't have IDs. So you are either arguing by your incredulity of an irrelevant list or you are doubting the actual data. Both are lousy arguments.
2012-10-02 12:43:23 PM
2 votes:

Bag of Hammers: lemurs: In practice, actual voter fraud (which is not the same thing as voter registration fraud) is extremely rare. And when it does occur, the typical causes are things like felons voting when they shouldn't, which wouldn't be stopped by voter ID laws.

So just like the "top state Republican lawmaker" in TFA alludes to, the purpose of voter ID laws is not to stop voting fraud.



Thisity THIS.

1) In person Voter Fraud almost never* (*a statistically irrelevant number) happens.

2) Even the backers of the bill say it's not for the purposes of preventing in-person voting.

3) You have nothing, this is voter suppression pure and simple.


It really is this simple. Republicans are whipping people into a frenzy over a problem that has been proven not to exist in order to pass draconian measures that disenfranchise voter demographics which tend to vote for Democrats.

Repeating their talking points just shows that you've either been duped by right wing propaganda or are knowingly pushing said propaganda to gain an unfair and undemocratic advantage at the polls.
2012-10-02 12:25:04 PM
2 votes:
So we're at that point in the thread where the first group of trolls have had their arguments completely curb-stomped, and the second wave rolls in to make exactly the same discredited arguments like they never happened.

Alrighty then. I'm done.
2012-10-02 12:23:46 PM
2 votes:

Eagles409: I love how liberals just assume that poor people and minorities are too stupid to get a free ID card.


Let me guess...this is part of the "Dem policies are racist because they think blacks are too stupid to know what's good for them" theory.

Which is then followed by reasons why Repub policies are actually better for blacks, but they don't know what's good for them and only vote for Dems because they're lazy and stupid and want free stuff.

mmmmderp
2012-10-02 12:23:37 PM
2 votes:

Marine1: Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:
adopt a pet
purchase a home
purchase an automobile
purchase a gun
obtain a bank account
obtain a credit card
obtain a passport
write a check
make a credit card purchase
apply for a loan to purchase anything
to prove your age
to get married
to receive a marriage license
to drive
to buy a house
to close on a house
to get medical care
to get on a plane
to get insurance on anything
to get a job
to get a post office box
to get a hunting license
to get a fishing license
to get a business license
to cash a paycheck
rent an apartment
rent a hotel room
rent a car
rent furniture
rent tools and equipment
receive welfare
receive social security
receive food stamps
buy cigarettes
buy alcohol
buy a bus ticket
buy a cell phone
buy any antihistimine
go in to a casino
go in to a bar
go to college
have your water turned on
have your electricity turned on
have your cable turned on
have your gas turned on
obtain trash pick up service
pick up a package from the post office
pick up a package from fed ex
pick up a package from ups
pick up a prescription

So the people without id to vote never do any of these thigs either, right?

But, but, poor people never do any of that...


It's beautiful when trolls / low-information voters internet fist-bump.
2012-10-02 12:23:32 PM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:
adopt a pet
purchase a home
purchase an automobile
purchase a gun
obtain a bank account
obtain a credit card
obtain a passport
write a check
make a credit card purchase
apply for a loan to purchase anything
to prove your age
to get married
to receive a marriage license
to drive
to buy a house
to close on a house
to get medical care
to get on a plane
to get insurance on anything
to get a job
to get a post office box
to get a hunting license
to get a fishing license
to get a business license
to cash a paycheck
rent an apartment
rent a hotel room
rent a car
rent furniture
rent tools and equipment
receive welfare
receive social security
receive food stamps
buy cigarettes
buy alcohol
buy a bus ticket
buy a cell phone
buy any antihistimine
go in to a casino
go in to a bar
go to college
have your water turned on
have your electricity turned on
have your cable turned on
have your gas turned on
obtain trash pick up service
pick up a package from the post office
pick up a package from fed ex
pick up a package from ups
pick up a prescription

So the people without id to vote never do any of these thigs either, right?


First off, some of those people can and do without ID, especially in rural areas. For instance, my uncle was postmaster of a small, Texas town and getting a package to my mamaw was as easy as putting her name and zip code on it.

Second, incredulity isn't data. The data shows that a lot of people don't have the damn things.(Certainly a vastly larger number than those committing voter fraud) So you are either typing a lengthy red herring or doubting the data. Both are crappy arguments.
2012-10-02 12:23:31 PM
2 votes:
Giltric: "The free IDs have already been cited via articles and PENNDOTs own website....care to try again?"

Cited as what? being a joke? Up until about a week ago they had enough unnecessary hoops to jump through that they didn't actually alleviate any concerns about disenfranchisement.
(proof of residence? like, what a water bill? Try meeting that bar in a dorm or retirement home.)
Now, even with the relaxed rules, they're still a joke. (if you're not already registered to vote, you can't get the ID you need to vote. clear as mud, no?)
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/19659771/pa-voter-id-law

And it's farkin *October* and that process is still half-baked? Gee, I wonder why...

It's bad enough that we don't allow people time off from work to vote. Or open the polls on Sunday as a matter of course.
But to go out of your way to make it harder for people to vote in the name of combating a problem that doesn't exist?

And from the party that's supposedly all about 'framers intentions' and liberty and healthy suspicion of the government?
Come the fark on. It's dirty pool and you've got to be either ignorant of the facts, paid or a partisan cheerleader to defend this shiat.
2012-10-02 12:15:51 PM
2 votes:
I love how liberals just assume that poor people and minorities are too stupid to get a free ID card.
2012-10-02 12:13:15 PM
2 votes:

ltdanman44: a very simple way to prevent voter fraud. finger/thumbprint id scanners at every poll station. We would have a nationwide database and compare to see if you have voted twice.


It's hard enough to get people to vote once. Implementing a massive system to stop them from voting twice is a solution to a non-problem.
2012-10-02 12:06:40 PM
2 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: You asked how people can get by without ID, and now you know.


These people don't really want to know how someone can go through life without jumping through all the government mandated ID hoops they have to. They just want to biatch and disenfranchise people. Notice they always change the subject after their "BUT HOW CAN..." questions are answered.
2012-10-02 12:00:54 PM
2 votes:

bhcompy: coeyagi: Conservatards on Fark: It's free, it's free!
Rest of us: No, it's not, it costs the person money to go get it and also the taxpayers. Small government WHAR WHAR?
Conservatards: It fixes a problem!
Rest of us: 0.00003% of the votes, dipsh*t.
Conservatards: ....
Conservatards: Dead voters, immigrants, derp!

Considering Democrats are still upset about Florida 2000, I'd think that integrity of elections would be paramount.


Another moron who doesn't understand voter / election fraud.

Do you guys multiply by mitosis?
2012-10-02 11:59:47 AM
2 votes:

5monkeys: Poor cash checks, buy booze or cigarettes, live places, or have bank accounts. I am not rich, not by a mile, but i have an id. You need one in today's world.


Poor people frequently get paid in cash. The ones who get paid in checks frequently don't have bank accounts, and instead take them to check cashing places who will take 15% and not require ID and/or will simply check off a box saying 'checked ID' on a form without actually needing to look at said ID.
Booze and cigarettes can be purchased without an ID, particularly if you're paying cash.
You can rent crappy apartments from slum lords for cash without needing an ID, because they don't want to report the income to the IRS and if they have your cash, they don't care who the fark you are.

In short, you're incredibly naive. There's this huge world of people living by means you know nothing of.
2012-10-02 11:55:55 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: Dude, if you don't have an ID, you're off the farking grid these days. I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?


it doesn't change the fact that you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

plus, there is virtually no voter fraud out there. sure, there's the occasional voter registration fraud - typically perpetrated by republicans, i might add - but there is virtually no voter fraud.

so, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. and it's a solution offered by republicans specifically do disenfranchise democrats. they've said so themselves. and for the "party of small government," creating laws to address nonexistent problems seems, well, strange, don't you think?
2012-10-02 11:54:14 AM
2 votes:

olddinosaur: Go to google and key in "illegal immigrant voting," and you will find about 8.5 million of these citation thingies you love so well.

RTFP, doofus.


I googled "aliens eat brains" and got 24,900,000 hits, er, citations.

I had no idea there was such an alien brain eating problem. And it's THREE TIMES the problem of illegal immigrant voting. I'll alert the media.
2012-10-02 11:53:49 AM
2 votes:

I_C_Weener: Theaetetus: I_C_Weener: But its inconvenient. And so are going to the polls. I mean get out of bed and sometime between 6am and 8pm go somewhere in your neighborhood to vote. Its unconscionable.

Can you get a voter ID at the same location at the same hours? No? You have to go across town and wait in a 6 hour line for a window that's only open for two hours on a Thursday, and if you're not in the front of the line, you have to come back the next week? You mean that one thing may be convenient and the other may not? Heavens!


Sounds like you guys need to think ahead.  Lots of BMVs.  Do you see long lines for driver's licenses that require a 6 hour line?


Uh, yes. Maybe you live someplace with not many people.

People who complain about getting a free ID, aren't invested enough in the process.  Not a poll tax.  Just an ID.  A free one.  Make it avaliable.   People cry fraud all the time.  Eliminate the small amount of fraud and the large cry by doing something simple that most people manage without even thinking about it. 
 
Getting an ID is not the travail everyone claims it is.


1) Yes, it is, because it's not 'made available'. You say that it should be done at the BMVs... Okay, maybe that's a decent proposal (it's not, for the reason noted above), but that's not currently where you get your voter ID. So, saying, "well, we could make it convenient," doesn't change the fact that you haven't actually done that yet.

2) If you were really concerned about fraud, then you'd have no problem with having this requirement start next year, since fraud will exist regardless. The only reason to slam it through in the next month is because you want to disenfranchise people in this election.
2012-10-02 11:53:34 AM
2 votes:
When the wife and I were living in Dublin in the 90s... a Council official knocked on our door looking to sign us up for an upcoming election. I told him we weren't Irish citizens or even legal residents.

He told us it didn't matter. If you lived in the country, you had the right to vote in elections.

Never verified that was true, but it sure sounds a lot more democratic and sensible than many of the restrictive laws we have in this country...
2012-10-02 11:52:07 AM
2 votes:
In practice, actual voter fraud (which is not the same thing as voter registration fraud) is extremely rare. And when it does occur, the typical causes are things like felons voting when they shouldn't, which wouldn't be stopped by voter ID laws.

So just like the "top state Republican lawmaker" in TFA alludes to, the purpose of voter ID laws is not to stop voting fraud.
2012-10-02 11:51:53 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: Yes, because poor people don't live in apartments, don't purchase any tobacco or cigarettes, don't cash paychecks, and don't drive.

That's shiat you do no matter what your income level.


You don't necessarily need ID to rent an apartment, purchase tobacco, you can deposit checks without ID, and lots of inner city people never drive.

Again: your strained incredulity aside, the fact is there are a half a million people without the required picture ID in Philly alone.

I expect you've never seen an elephant in the wild either. Does that mean they don't exist?
2012-10-02 11:46:34 AM
2 votes:
fta: Election workers will still be allowed to ask voters for a valid photo ID, but people without it can vote on a regular voting machine in the polling place and would not have to cast a provisional ballot or prove their identity to election officials after the election.

In other words, photo ID makes absolutely no difference in anything at all, but the people managing polling places can still request it to intimidate the uninformed. Great.
2012-10-02 11:46:12 AM
2 votes:
Marine1: "I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?"

That's just the thing. The law requires a subset of IDs. Keep in mind the legalese.
You can do pretty much all of the things in your list of "shiat you need an ID for" without a current, in-state, updated-address, contains-a-picture ID*.

There is no voter impersonation fraud *problem*. People keep looking for it, but it just doesn't exist.
This shiat is strictly about disenfranchisement of populations likely to vote democratic in swing states and that's trivial to see when you look at the facts.
2012-10-02 11:45:24 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: FlashHarry: Marine1: With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?

old people and poor people who are still americans with a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

Dude, if you don't have an ID, you're off the farking grid these days. I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?


So, if you are off the grid, you shouldn't be allowed to vote?

All the CSB's about how "I don't know anyone without an ID" does not mean there are people who don't have one. I'd also like to know if the CSB people ask everyone they know for an ID when they interact with them.

As someone from Minnesota, and who watched almost every minute of the Franken/Coleman re-count, I can actually say "CSB, the chance of voter fraud is so small that it makes Voter ID laws not only frivolous, but uses taxpayer money for absolutely no reason."
2012-10-02 11:43:21 AM
2 votes:

Leeds: Dusk-You-n-Me: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

And if they forget their ID? Lose it? Have it stolen? Should they then lose their ability to vote?


Oh my goodness, what if they forget where to vote, or their car breaks down or they hit a deer on the way to the polling stations? We clearly need to send drivers out to pick up every resident in the state to make sure that they get to the polls on time!!!

// Democrats actually believe this crap


I'd love to hear your tune if they switched to online voting and your mother didn't have a computer.
2012-10-02 11:42:07 AM
2 votes:

darkedgefan: Yea, it is OK to ask people for IDs for alcohol and smokes, but not to vote! nooooooo!


It's amazing how many morons think this is an actual argument
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 11:40:14 AM
2 votes:

Giltric: qorkfiend: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

You can get a free ID because of this law. Link


Really? Can you get one of these free IDs without an ID? If so, how is it guaranteeing anything? And if it isn't guaranteeing anything, isn't it just making voters jump through hoops for no good reason?
2012-10-02 11:39:29 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


I liked how you list things that only people with money do. You do have the sense to realize that poverty is a major disadvantage, though. Some of us try to focus on that, but then Republicans complain that poor people own refrigerators and get government cell phones.
2012-10-02 11:38:48 AM
2 votes:

Giltric: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.

the ID is free the law was passed in June or July.

Leave it to democrats to procrastinate and complain about having to pay for something that is free......


Not charging $20 does not make it free. The DMV has set hours and a set place that conflicts with many people's work schedule and mobility. The polls already have these time and place restrictions. Why do we need more?
2012-10-02 11:38:32 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: FlashHarry: Marine1: With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?

old people and poor people who are still americans with a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

Dude, if you don't have an ID, you're off the farking grid these days. I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?


In Philly alone, there are roughly half a million people who lack photo ID that would have been required for them to vote.

Of course, almost all of them are democrats, which was the point.
2012-10-02 11:36:56 AM
2 votes:

what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.


And if they forget their ID? Lose it? Have it stolen? Should they then lose their ability to vote?

And we're now trusting polling place workers with inspecting IDs? With no training whatsoever?

All to fix a problem that does not exist in any significant way.
2012-10-02 11:35:08 AM
2 votes:

hetheeme: "Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

Good to know that they can commit fraud just long enough to let Obama win the state one last time.

Nothing wring with the law in general, apparently, just that it would hurt the Obama administration.


Numerous people, in interviews, articles, blog posts, and here in this very thread, have pointed out what is wrong with the law in general. It is that it requires a state-issued ID, which is not free, which means that a fee must be paid in order to vote, which is specifically outlawed by the Constitution.
2012-10-02 11:32:43 AM
2 votes:

fireclown: PonceAlyosha: It is a poll tax and thus violates the constitution. The right to vote is contingent on showing up, nothing else.

The right to vote HOW many times?


That's the issue though. There just isn't much evidence that this actually happens and who it helps. Why it gets overturned is you cannot make sure thousands of people cannot vote because someone MIGHT break the system. Most actual election fraud that has been discovered this cycle is at a higher level than the individual voter (with both parties being guilty). I'm sure we'll find 3 total people on election day who break the rules and say that DEFINITELY means we should make it so that people have to pay for their rights.
2012-10-02 11:30:40 AM
2 votes:

LineNoise: If you can't make a $6 yearly investment in something that is going to make your life so much easier, well, you probably shouldn't have a say in anything to begin with.


Why do you hate the Constitution?
2012-10-02 11:28:44 AM
2 votes:

hetheeme: qorkfiend: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

Fine by me. If there were anything worth the taxpayers money to pay for, it's making sure that the elections are not prone to fraud.


Show me evidence of in person voter fraud and then we'll worry about the taxpayer expense.
2012-10-02 11:28:24 AM
2 votes:
They had a segment on NPR about this law yesterday. They had a regular elections specialist and a Republican strategist. The conversation was basically like this:

Election specialist: Well, one concern is that there are elderly people who won't be able to easily procure a photo ID.

Republican strategist: Derpderpfreedomderp, if you're concerned, you drive them to the Social Security office.

Election specialist: Well, in some states, you can't get a birth certificate without a photo ID, and you can't get a photo ID without a birth certificate.

Republican strategist: Well, those people are exceptions.

Election specialist: Isn't voting a right?

Republican strategist: Of course it is. Everyone should be able to vote, no matter how difficult we make it.
2012-10-02 11:27:25 AM
2 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


Photo ID. Handicapped, elderly and indigent. People you probably don't know or see, but are still citizens with a right to vote.

I already provided adequate ID when I registered to vote. I can vote with my registration card, which lacks a photo.
2012-10-02 11:26:50 AM
2 votes:

bhcompy: I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


It fraking doesn't.
2012-10-02 11:26:42 AM
2 votes:

slykens1: qorkfiend: Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

Funnily enough, if you want an ID to vote PennDOT will give you one for free.

Oh, and your nursing home ID and student ID are OK too if they have an expiration date.

I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


So are you disputing the surveys that say a significant portion of the population don't have a valid idea or are you just straight up using the fallacy of incredulity?
2012-10-02 11:26:14 AM
2 votes:
'Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania?"- undone you slimy mistake of a mother-farker
2012-10-02 11:25:50 AM
2 votes:

slykens1: qorkfiend: Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

Funnily enough, if you want an ID to vote PennDOT will give you one for free.

Oh, and your nursing home ID and student ID are OK too if they have an expiration date.

I'm still struggling to understand how you can get through life without a photo ID in today's world - that is to say not needing one at least once every four years, our validity period in PA.


That's why. Lots of older and/or poorer people only get an ID when they need it and then once it's expired don't renew it.
2012-10-02 11:24:20 AM
2 votes:

I_C_Weener: tallguywithglasseson: There goes Romney's last chance at winning Pennsylvania. If they can't keep the poor, elderly, and college students from voting, he's done.

Hard to feel bad about this.


I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID.  Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?


I don't know of any cases of voter fraud in the USA. Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?

The biggest problem with this legislation is that it's under the guise of fixing voter fraud, something which isn't a problem anywhere in this country. We have turnout of less than 50% in presidential elections. There is no voter fraud problem to solve.
2012-10-02 11:24:12 AM
2 votes:

hetheeme: qorkfiend: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.

Fine by me. If there were anything worth the taxpayers money to pay for, it's making sure that the elections are not prone to fraud.


These laws hinge in people NOT being able to afford the ID. In NH they passed a law which said that students wishing to vote at school had to not only have a NH licence but had to have a REGISTERED vehicle. Guess who the students will vote for? Guess who controls the NH legislature.

(hopefully will be scuttled as well)
2012-10-02 11:24:05 AM
2 votes:

I_C_Weener: I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID. Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?


Ask the former Mayor of Pittsburgh
.
2012-10-02 11:23:55 AM
2 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


If the ID costs money, it's a poll tax, which is unconstitutional.

If the ID does not cost money, there's still the time involved in obtaining an ID. Generally speaking, the working poor in the US don't have the type of career where they can say "hey, I need to take off from work to run to the DMV and grab an ID", because management can easily find another minimum-wage worker who will actually be able to stay at work.
2012-10-02 11:22:35 AM
2 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Depends on the voter ID requirement in question. Pennsylvania's in particular required you to pay money and take time out of the work day to acquire the documents necessary to get the photo ID. (You do know that most of the poor work, right? And that they can't get time off whenever they want?)
2012-10-02 11:17:25 AM
2 votes:
I'm ok with this. What's the big deal?
2012-10-02 11:15:09 AM
2 votes:
Right-wing reaction:

www.deviantart.com
2012-10-02 11:14:40 AM
2 votes:
I forgot this ruling was coming out today. Thank goodness.

/Pa. resident
2012-10-02 11:13:49 AM
2 votes:
This headline sucks, mine was better.
2012-10-02 08:35:22 PM
1 votes:
Just a point of information for anyone suggesting these state ID's to vote are free: the ID itself may be, but the birth certificate (and marriage certificate, divorce decree, etc for women who have ever been married, in some states) are usually not.  It costs money to jump through these hoops, and in some states, you have to have an ID just to get the birth certificate, so it's a nice little bit of circular logic.  The original plaintiff in the PA case tried 3 or 4 times to get her birth certificate, but despite sending in the fee on more than one occasion, they kept losing or were "unable to find" the woman's birth certicate.  She wasn't able to get an ID until after the case made it to court.  Since obtaining the required documentation costs money, that makes getting the ID not free, and it is therefore still a poll tax.
2012-10-02 07:50:48 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: What states do they take an NRA ID as official ID? Do you have a link?


My mistake. I see that they meant to say a concealed carry permit:

Giltric: And you already answered the question of why they dont take college IDs in your previous statement of people forging IDs to buy booze.


So they can forge a college ID but they can't forge a State ID? That's some ironclad logic you're going with there.
2012-10-02 07:38:23 PM
1 votes:

simkatu: KrustyKitten: PA DOT Requirements for Voter ID (none of these requirements costs anything)

Granted, this is only applicable of the individual has been registed to vote at some point in their lifetime. This is probably the case with most voters, especially the bedridden grandfather further up thread. No need to renew a DL or get a state mantated photo ID.

1) How does a disabled person 30 miles from the DMV get to the DMV for their free Voter ID?

2) How much does it cost taxpayers to give out the Free Voter ID? What is the total cost to taxpayers to fix a problem that doesn't even exist?

3) How many people go to the polls to vote under an assumed name rather than their own?

4) How does this law prevent anyone from just registering under a phony name and completing an advance ballot by mail? Won't all the idiots that were going to the polls to vote illegally, just do the smart thing from now on and get 10 advance ballots sent to their home and just mail them in? Will Voter ID stop even one person that wants to commit voter fraud?

This whole Voter ID is a very expensive non-solution to a problem that doesn't even exist.

/It's sole purpose is to disenfranchise people that tend to vote Democrat.


5) What the hell is the point of a picture ID that says that you promise that's what your name is?
Instead of using a utility bill to vote, you use a utility bill to get a picture ID to vote. How does this prevent voter fraud?

It's an extra step that has no purpose besides causing people problems.
2012-10-02 07:08:47 PM
1 votes:

KrustyKitten: PA DOT Requirements for Voter ID (none of these requirements costs anything)

Granted, this is only applicable of the individual has been registed to vote at some point in their lifetime. This is probably the case with most voters, especially the bedridden grandfather further up thread. No need to renew a DL or get a state mantated photo ID.


1) How does a disabled person 30 miles from the DMV get to the DMV for their free Voter ID?

2) How much does it cost taxpayers to give out the Free Voter ID? What is the total cost to taxpayers to fix a problem that doesn't even exist?

3) How many people go to the polls to vote under an assumed name rather than their own?

4) How does this law prevent anyone from just registering under a phony name and completing an advance ballot by mail? Won't all the idiots that were going to the polls to vote illegally, just do the smart thing from now on and get 10 advance ballots sent to their home and just mail them in? Will Voter ID stop even one person that wants to commit voter fraud?

This whole Voter ID is a very expensive non-solution to a problem that doesn't even exist.

/It's sole purpose is to disenfranchise people that tend to vote Democrat.
2012-10-02 06:54:53 PM
1 votes:
The thing that people don't understand is that election fraud is ALMOST NEVER THE VOTERS. Ballot box stuffing is done after the polls are closed. I mean, you can buy votes, but this sort of thing won't be stopped by ID laws. There is no real problem that this solves.

These laws are nothing but intimidation tactics.

You never have to prove who you are to have your rights. I was taught that by both parents and teachers in the 1980s. That recently it was said that the difference between free societies with rights and dictatorships was having to carry papers that state that you can do something. I'm sick and tired of the right wing trying to force a police state down my throat.
2012-10-02 05:33:26 PM
1 votes:

authorizeduser: election fraud


Election fraud and voter fraud are two very different things. One exists, and is done by doing things like shorting high turnout black districts on voting machines, or buggering with the final numbers through a backdoor in the program that counts the votes. The other is done with a massive level of falsified paperwork, intense organization of large numbers of people, all of whom you have to count on not talking and not getting caught, for an insignificant number of votes.

Voter fraud is not a problem. The only really feasible form of voter fraud is absentee fraud- which is in no way addressed by these laws.
2012-10-02 05:05:44 PM
1 votes:
1) There is very little voter fraud in America. Less than 1 case per state per year. Voter ID is not meant to fix voter fraud, because voter fraud is not a problem to begin. Voter ID is very expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

2) There are lots of people that have voted for years, that will be disenfranchised by many of the Voter ID laws. Many folks don't have copies of their birth certificates or other papers and don't have the money, time, or capability of getting the required documentation to vote. The people that will be affected will most likely be Democrat voters, because the very poor, those without vehicles, those without bank accounts, the disabled, are all groups that tend to favor Democrats.

3) Eliminating absentee balloting would be the best way to prevent people from committing voter fraud, but Republicans won't even think about making absentee balloting more difficult. Why is that? Because that group of voters tends to vote GOP. You can do absentee balloting for everyone in your house without their consent. You can even say you live in Florida, register over the Internet, have them mail your ballot to your home state of Michigan, and vote there if you want. There's nothing in Voter ID laws that prevent this most common and simple form of voter fraud.

/Everyone, including the people that write the bills, knows and admit that voter fraud isn't a problem in America and that Voter ID will disenfranchise eligible voters that that tend to vote for Democrats.

//That's the point.
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 04:30:32 PM
1 votes:

authorizeduser: AntiNerd: Of course people without what the local official considers "valid ID" will still have to cast a provisional ballot. This will create a lot of uncertainty and confusion which the Republicans are still experts at exploiting. Look for the election to end up in court at the very least.

One thing about it that I found interesting is to see how the vote goes down among provisional ballots. That will settle once and for all just who it is that voter ID laws disenfranchise.

It's pretty obvious who voter ID laws disenfranchise: the deceased, illegal immigrants and otherwise non-citizens... and degenerates who can't be bothered to visit the DMV but, are still expected to be active participants of the electoral system.


Like degenerates that fought for us in WWII.

Go fark yourself.
2012-10-02 04:29:16 PM
1 votes:

authorizeduser: AntiNerd: Of course people without what the local official considers "valid ID" will still have to cast a provisional ballot. This will create a lot of uncertainty and confusion which the Republicans are still experts at exploiting. Look for the election to end up in court at the very least.

One thing about it that I found interesting is to see how the vote goes down among provisional ballots. That will settle once and for all just who it is that voter ID laws disenfranchise.

It's pretty obvious who voter ID laws disenfranchise: the deceased, illegal immigrants and otherwise non-citizens... and degenerates who can't be bothered to visit the DMV but, are still expected to be active participants of the electoral system.


Instant ignore list.
2012-10-02 04:24:58 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: A) Point me to the person in PA who has not hear about this over the course of the past 12 months, much less the past 8 months since ID's became free. Seriously- give me the name of this supposed living being who intends to vote but has not read, listened to or watched a single news bulletin in over a year. GIVE ME HIS NAME, asshat.


I don't know the names of any people living in Botswana. Therefore, it must not be a real country.
2012-10-02 04:22:14 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: firefly212: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: cptjeff: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: from all the (deceased / non-citizen) people voting

Can you show any proof of this happening? Any at all? Because Pennsylvania sure as hell looked for some, but they had to admit in court that there was absolutely no evidence of this actually happening.

In person voter fraud simply does not happen. It's a high risk crime with an incredibly low reward.

In example after example here on Fark, I have been shown by leading Fark Liberals that actual proof of a positive assertion is totally unnecessary. Can you prove it is NOT happening? go on, I dare you.

So we're going to disenfranchise millions of people based once more on ideological idiocy? Seems smart. I think what the conservatives fail to understand is how many rural whites they're gonna end up disenfranchising if this voter ID stuff gets standardized. For urban people (no, I don't just mean black people, I mean people in urban areas) . It will be easy for unions and democrats to organize bus trips to the dmv to get non-drivers IDs and get all those people ready to vote in the next four years... otoh, rural voters, people who may never have come down to the city ever, they're gonna be SOL.

ZOMFG, what century are you living in?

When native villages in the freaking Congo and aborigine tribes in the Australian outback (yes, there are still a few who prefer the old life) have cell phones and Internet access, do you actually think that there are rural people who don't have such access?

'cause 'murkins are just dumb.

them's all those hatfields and mccoys down thar in the holler.

This is what comes from getting your politics, sociology and culture from TV and Internet memes while living in your mom's basement.




Well, I live in rural PA, and there is no Public transportation. And the PennDOT center is only open 2 days a week.

It's not an internet meme, it's life, as it actually is, in rural America.
2012-10-02 04:21:23 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: qorkfiend: kimmygibblershomework: I show my ID to buy a farking video game or even 2 liter of soda if I use a check card so what is the BFD? Kinda like the whole Arizona

Buying video games is not a right. Buying a 2-liter of soda is not a right, and I don't believe you when you say you had to show ID to do so.

Not having to pay any fee to be able to vote, unlike your examples, is a Constitutionally protected right. That's the "BFD"; laws that require you to pay in order to get a valid ID to vote are in violation of the Constitutional prohibition on poll taxes.

Since the ID's are free, how exactly would they be considered a poll tax? Please do not use the argument that it is a tax for someone to have to pay for gas to get to the ID facility. there is no right to vote from home.


The supporting documentation is not free, and time off of work for someone on an hourly wage adds up very quickly.
2012-10-02 04:18:59 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy:

You realize how easy it is to absentee vote in CA and how easy it is to vote for someone else with it?

/honestly don't know anyone that doesn't absentee vote in CA


That's just it... VOTER ID LAWS DO NOTHING TO PREVENT FRAUDULENT ABSENTEE VOTING.

So why do it if you're concerned with voter fraud?
2012-10-02 04:16:31 PM
1 votes:

rewind2846: olddinosaur: If you google "illegal immigrant voting" you will find about 8.5 million articles more or less.

There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.

Obama beat McCain by 69 million to 59 million last election; this one is likely to be closer.

How many of those votes were illegal?

Now I know yous trollin. I'm in California. I have been registered to vote here since 1988, and haven't missed a single election. To vote here you have to bring nothing more than your voter booklet, the one the state mails to every registered voter every election cycle. You go to the polls, they ask you who you are and your address, then check it off on a list with everyone else in that precinct, then they have you sign your name on the same sheet. This also takes care of voter fraud because you have to know english well enough that you can understand what the old people at the polls are saying, to answer them, and to sign your name.

No illegal immigrant is going to do all that. The ones I know do their damndest to stay under the radar... why would they purposely go into a government sponsored function to expose themselves?

Class, this is a classic textbook example of a republican who thinks that the office of president should only be legitimately held by a republican, preferable a pale one. Near as I can tell, you're full of sh*t.


THIS

Turnout is usually between 55 and 60% in presidential elections. There are millions of people who are registered or otherwise legally eligible to vote but just don't give shiat. It's absurd to think that some person who sneaked across the border and is avoiding contact with all government agencies and officials is so interested in voting.

It's farking laughably retarded.
2012-10-02 04:13:47 PM
1 votes:

spmkk:

Voting is the *only* conditional (i.e. contingent on age, citizenship, criminal record, etc.) constitutional right that is NOT currently subject to verification of identity. Why do you believe it should get a pass?


Because if the state is going to deny a right to one of its citizens, the burden is on the state to prove or disprove their qualifications for that right, and not on the citizen themselves. If the state cannot prove their accusation, the right is conferred and continued automatically and without question.

In other words, as in a court trial, it is the states responsibility to prove a defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and not the defendant's duty to prove themselves innocent.
2012-10-02 04:11:12 PM
1 votes:

winsecure: I can accept the argument at face value stating that requiring someone obtain a photo ID is to great of an encumbrance on the poor for a constitutionally guaranteed right. That this presents to great of a challenge for the poor to overcome.

However, that argument quickly falls down in comparison to how other constitutionally guaranteed rights are treated. The right to bear arms is supposedly guaranteed via Amendment 2. However, it is apparently not too great of an encumbrance to requires $431.50 in application and fingerprinting fees in New York.

So a few dollars investment for obtaining a photo ID is too great of a financial burden for one constitutionally protected right, while on the other hand it is perfectly reasonable to have people fork over hundreds of dollars for another?

"Constitutionally protected rights" should either be able to incur an encumbrance to exercise, or they shouldn't. But too many people think double standards are perfectly acceptable.

/pick one or the other


In order to restrict rights explicitly spelled out in the constitution, you must demonstrate a compelling state interest AND the prove that it cannot be reasonably accomplished through other means.

The state has a compelling interest (public safey) in keeping firearms out of the hands of convicted criminals, and those who are mentally incompetent and/or insane. THis is sustained by the number of such purchases that are currently blocked by ID checks and the number of times when guns are used by repeat offenders, etc.

In this case, the law fails BOTH tests. You cannot demonstrate a compelling need (lack of examples of in-person voter fraud), and you cannot demonstrate that this law will prevent anything but the saddest, most inept attempts to misrepresent yourself at the polls. You cannot demonstrate a lack of viable alternatives, because there are plenty of alternatives that do NOT needlessly restrict otherwise valid voters from having their say, but you CAN point to existing data on the large number of voters that this will disenfranchise. At very least there is no demonstrated urgency for implementing the law, and preventing its implementation for THIS election allows the redress of its other shortcomings.

In other words, implementing this law immediately has the effect of disenfranchising thousands of voters, while presenting an easily overcome means of ensuring that *hypothetical* invalid votes are not cast. When you do NOT succeed in preventing the crime, but DO succeed in punishing the innocent, that is a bad bargain. Allowing it to take effect for the NEXT election allows the state to remove other unnecessary barriers to getting the ID needed, and more than adequate time for individual voters to obtain such ID.
2012-10-02 04:10:24 PM
1 votes:
Also, NutsacJim, I find it telling that you think all you need to do to skirt these voter ID laws is to sign up for an absentee ballot... why would you support these voter ID laws if they really were that easy to get around? Doesn't seem like it would eliminate fraud nearly as much as it would just favor people who planned on committing fraud in a different manner.
2012-10-02 04:00:23 PM
1 votes:

olddinosaur: If you google "illegal immigrant voting" you will find about 8.5 million articles more or less.

There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.

Obama beat McCain by 69 million to 59 million last election; this one is likely to be closer.

How many of those votes were illegal?


Now I know yous trollin. I'm in California. I have been registered to vote here since 1988, and haven't missed a single election. To vote here you have to bring nothing more than your voter booklet, the one the state mails to every registered voter every election cycle. You go to the polls, they ask you who you are and your address, then check it off on a list with everyone else in that precinct, then they have you sign your name on the same sheet. This also takes care of voter fraud because you have to know english well enough that you can understand what the old people at the polls are saying, to answer them, and to sign your name.

No illegal immigrant is going to do all that. The ones I know do their damndest to stay under the radar... why would they purposely go into a government sponsored function to expose themselves?

Class, this is a classic textbook example of a republican who thinks that the office of president should only be legitimately held by a republican, preferable a pale one. Near as I can tell, you're full of sh*t.
2012-10-02 03:59:51 PM
1 votes:
Republicans on voter fraud:

farm1.staticflickr.com
2012-10-02 03:51:12 PM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud. God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Republicans don't give one shiat about "people proving who they are in order to vote".

If they did, they would eliminate advance voting and voting by mail, which has thousands of times the potential for fraud. I can register friends of mine in every Florida county over the Internet and even have them send my advance voting materials back to my home state in Missouri or wherever I want. People with multiple family members at the same address can easily fill out advance voting forms for everyone in their family and nobody would be any the wiser.

Why don't Republicans fight to get rid of advance voting to prevent all the fraud inherent with that system?

It's very simple, it's because advance voters are more likely to vote Republican than people that show up at the polls.

Voter ID laws are only about disenfranchising the kind of people that are likely to vote for Democrats, namely the very poor, the disabled, and the very aged. For many of these people it's a major task to get someone to take them 20 or 30 miles to the courthouse or license bureau and to come up with documents like birth certificates, which may have been lost 50 years ago. Both IDs and birth certificates cost money, and the entire process takes a lot of time, which many poor people with families just don't readily have.

There's no evidence that voter fraud exists in any state in any meaningful numbers and there's even less evidence that Voter ID laws will do anything to prevent people from illegally voting, since most of that is done through advance ballots in the mail.

/Pure hypocrisy. Glad the courts have the sense to recognize it.
2012-10-02 03:47:56 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: Lionel Mandrake: The argument is that it amounts to a poll tax, results in keeping eligible voters from voting, and addresses a non-existent "problem"

The way it is now it allows "INELIGIBLE" voters (illegals) to vote.

Do you believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be able to vote?


Do you believe DR. DOOM should be able to vote? Of course you don't. I'm sure you'll support my proposal, then, which would require all voters to obtain a piece of documentation that proves they are not Dr. Doom, issued from an office located inside a dormant volcano, whose hours of opening vary daily based on the Fibonacci Sequence.
2012-10-02 03:40:13 PM
1 votes:

xaratherus: Alassra: I still am concerned about cases where folks can't get to a DMV. I think that since the Commonwealth now has a year to get on board, we can just put the effort there instead of getting wrapped up in a letter before someone's name and ensure we're all legal.

Perhaps PennDOT could fund a series of mobile units to get people registered and issue IDs?


How many millions in taxpayer funds should PA invest in solving a problem that doesn't exist?

They've already spent several million in court and in making changes at PennDOT.
2012-10-02 03:27:14 PM
1 votes:

ChuDogg: I'll be perfectly honest I don't think dumb and poor people should vote, I would have much more stringent conditions on voting including IQ tests, historical knowledge of US Constitutional and Common law doctrine and its development, civics, and quite possibly service in the military, Peace corps, or extensive volunteer work through College. Voting should be seen as something to be prepared for very early in the year. Like studying for the SAT, LSATS, etc. But yeah, this is a start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio


SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP!

WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?
2012-10-02 03:26:27 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: In this thread some people (still) have been saying that ID's cost money. They do not. I have posted links multiple times, but people seem unwilling to read them.


And other people have consistently overlooked the basic legal concept that new law should be based on significant reason, not speculation. Yet this law is based on the latter; when asked to offer evidence, the proponents of the law could not do so. That doesn't mean they get to implement the law so that they might be able to collect the data they need to make the law relevant and necessary.

I mean, if this is such a huge problem, then isn't it sensible to believe they should have been able to come up with some evidence? But they couldn't, not that was admissible in court.

Leeds: Then people started saying that there are tons of people who don't drive. I was born in PA and I know of only one person of voting age who doesn't have (or didn't ever have) a drivers license. Her name is Jenn and she's afraid of cars.


Which is obviously a significant-enough statistical sample to make the statement that outside of New York City, 99.9% of all people drive.
2012-10-02 03:26:20 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: Alternatively, if you do not want to drive a whole day to get to town, try using a stamp and an absentee ballot.


And yet, with the existence of this giant security hole, you really think somebody meaning to stuff the ballot box will march people into a polling place?
2012-10-02 03:25:18 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: nytmare: This is how republicans actually rationalize it. Even though individual voter fraud is probably rare, and there are already procedures in place to ensure one vote per registered person making official ID cards unnecessary.

Because you are physically incapable of signing a name that's not your own, amirite?

And there is some sort of force field that bars you from entering 2 polling stations in the same day, right?


Yes, there is obviously a conspiracy that means thousands if not millions of liberals would do this. Yawn. There is no motive for one person doing this a few times. You can barely get the average person to vote once. And due to this lack of motive, we have lack of evidence of the problem that doesn't exist, therefore we have no need.

You really should get a morning-after pill for the number of times you've been raped today.

//or just use your uterus magic to reject the fetus
2012-10-02 03:18:07 PM
1 votes:

rewind2846: "People who travel regularly enough to require a passport are usually wealthy enough to have all the requisite documentation. Poor people may not have that luxury. Also, getting a passport is not a right."



www.clker.com

Nobody's suggesting that it is. However, for citizens, entering the country IS a right. And a passport -- not just a photo ID, but a particularly expensive and demanding one -- is very much required to exercise it.

Voting is the *only* conditional (i.e. contingent on age, citizenship, criminal record, etc.) constitutional right that is NOT currently subject to verification of identity. Why do you believe it should get a pass?
2012-10-02 03:17:58 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: X-boxershorts: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Can you prove it is NOT happening? go on, I dare you.

PA did. Testified in court that it wasn't happening. Under oath even.

Legal proof. Not existential proof.

Try again.


You have it backwards. If you're going to affect the exercising of a constitutional right, perhaps you should prove beyond a doubt the need to place restrictions on the exercising of that right. Which is precisely what the PA Supreme court has said.
2012-10-02 03:17:22 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: X-boxershorts: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Can you prove it is NOT happening? go on, I dare you.

PA did. Testified in court that it wasn't happening. Under oath even.

Legal proof. Not existential proof.

Try again.


A court ruling IS legal proof. It's called legal precedence. Derp.
2012-10-02 03:17:03 PM
1 votes:

skygod: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

Hey, look at the bright side. You and your retarded buddy's will have 4 more years of those awesome birther email forwards.


???? Do you have, you know, an actual POINT, or are you just babbling to hear yourself?
2012-10-02 03:15:16 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: X-boxershorts: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Can you prove it is NOT happening? go on, I dare you.

PA did. Testified in court that it wasn't happening. Under oath even.

Legal proof. Not existential proof.

Try again.


Prove that Ronald Reagan WASN'T an alien. Go ahead.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
2012-10-02 03:10:36 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: Alassra: Why don't you and your 99.9% of suspended driver friends come to PA and see the 48 rural counties with DMZ apps and photo ID machines and help them out? Be part of a solution instead of compounding the problem...


As both a PA resident and subby I have to say- Suck it, fatty. Suck it long and suck it hard.


===============

As a PA resident and valid ID carrying voter who has been voting since I was 18, I refuse to stoop to insults and name-calling to seem important.

You're quick to call names and insult, yet you seem to lack a lot of knowledge / facts / rational thought to back up that trash talk. Again, I asked YOU to do your part to help and you call names - I'm a PA resident and have been helping get the word out and ensuring folks get ID. Why don't you try that instead of name calling? That would probably take more effort on your part that you're willing to invest - sitting online and name calling seems easier, no?
2012-10-02 03:01:31 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Can you prove it is NOT happening? go on, I dare you.


PA did. Testified in court that it wasn't happening. Under oath even.
2012-10-02 02:54:10 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


I have ID, let's be clear though, if you don't drive, your passport is fine for all of that... is not ok in many states for voting though because it doesn't have an address on it. The crap of it is, I live in BFE in the mountains, I can get a passport and renew it right at the post office with no fuss, but to get my non-driver id card took several hours of a friend driving me down to the city, a few different dmv offices (apparently some do licenses for cars, others do licenses for people, and some have "service fees" that cost more than the ID itself. There's no free way to the DMV, there's no free way back, there's certainly not a paid day for me to go deal with this bs, so I'm out that money too.

That said, my passport opened my bank account, was fine for my I9 with my job, has gotten me into other countries (oddly enough it's easier where I live to get to the airport than to get to the DMV), and I never once really felt disadvantaged until all of this voter ID nonsense came about.
2012-10-02 02:53:23 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: coeyagi: amiable: Leeds:
Don't drive???

Other that people who live in New York city, everyone drives. Even 99.9% of people with suspended licenses drive.

Uh, no... Plenty of older people and city dwellers do not drive. I know many of them. You are just entirely wrong here.

In my family alone who doesn't drive:

Cousin, is mildly autistic, still has the right to vote, lives in the sticks.
Aunt, old and feeble, now has mild Alzheimer's, lives at the beach, still has the right to vote.
Recently deceased grandmother, never drove, lived in the sticks, still had the right to vote.

But remember kids - everyone drives!

So if the law had not been postponed/struck down, your two mentally challenged family members are eligible for free ID's and your late grandmother is shiate out of luck.

That's kind of as it should be, right? (Unless you believe that the mentally ill should not be voting, but that's another thread)


Jesus, I kind of expected lots of ignorance here, but to be a total douchebag asshole too?

Dude, you just found my very short ignore list.
2012-10-02 02:48:38 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


My Dad for one, Didnt need a photo id to get an apartment, Still has the same library card from 83, booze he shows his Medicare card and the gray hair and the fact that he has been shopping there for 14 years counts. He dosent get on planes, carry a gun, drive a car, he dosent use checks he uses cash for everything. He also dosnt need it to volunteer in a soup kitchen, or help his neighbors who cant move as well as he can. and for him the cost of a state ID it would equal his weeks food budget, a passport well over a months.
2012-10-02 02:47:46 PM
1 votes:
I realize now that I am also uncomfortable with voter ID laws if a valid ID would have to include a photo, name, and address, right? Would the addresses have to match? I bet for at least 50% of my adult life my address on my ID has not matched my current place of residency. Plus, in IL, you can "register" a new address to your license but it's not on the card, it's only updated on in the system. I just have a hard time believing people moving from place to place would get a new ID every time they move. Unless this is all about matching a face to a name, in which case, all those John Smiths are lucky.
2012-10-02 02:45:30 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: HeartBurnKid: It costs money to get an ID, and it takes time smack in the middle of your workday to go to the DMV, time you aren't able to take off without losing any more money.

The IDs are F-R-E-E. And where is it that you are working, and need time off to get an ID, that you did not have to provide ID in order to work there in the first place?


Ya, I live in the mountains, as do many people in PA... its not free to have someone drive you for hours down to the dmv, spend their whole day with you, then drive you back up. You lose not only a days pay for not working, but another days pay in gas money... and that's at the very bottom end of the scale, you lying sack of shiat. For people struggling to pay for food and medicine, between taking the day off and gas money, that's several days of food they don't have.
2012-10-02 02:35:09 PM
1 votes:

cptjeff: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

I can't remember the last time I've been asked to show ID for any of those things. And the showing ID in everyday life thing as been shown to be hilariously false many times in this thread.


THIS. I mean seriously if I didn't go to a bar I would never take my ID out of my wallet. If you have had the same job for more than 5 years and don't drive or travel by air, why the heck would you go renew your license? My mom went nearly 20 years without a valid ID because she simply didn't do anything that required her to have one!
2012-10-02 02:34:10 PM
1 votes:

cchris_39: see Kennedy/Nixon, Bush/Gore.


You make a good point, however, that's not voter fraud. That's ballot box stuffing and it's done by election insiders. That's election fraud.
2012-10-02 02:30:54 PM
1 votes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Election_Solutions

Still a bigger threat to election fraud than anyone who can't show an ID.
2012-10-02 02:29:50 PM
1 votes:

Alassra: I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.


Statistically speaking voter fraud is, at best, a rounding error. So, no, I don't really care about voter ID.
The simple fact that this is a national discussion as opposed to something else, say, insuring no child goes to bed hungry at night speaks volumes about our priorities as a nation.
2012-10-02 02:28:42 PM
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: from all the (deceased / non-citizen) people voting


Can you show any proof of this happening? Any at all? Because Pennsylvania sure as hell looked for some, but they had to admit in court that there was absolutely no evidence of this actually happening.

In person voter fraud simply does not happen. It's a high risk crime with an incredibly low reward.
2012-10-02 02:26:18 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: HeartBurnKid: It costs money to get an ID, and it takes time smack in the middle of your workday to go to the DMV, time you aren't able to take off without losing any more money.

The IDs are F-R-E-E. And where is it that you are working, and need time off to get an ID, that you did not have to provide ID in order to work there in the first place?


A warehouse, a restaurant, on a construction crew, whatever. Photo ID isn't required to get a job.

And the IDs are free, except only as a specific voter specific ID. And then you have to know about it and request it specifically. And it's only available for one hour once a week in specific DMV locations far from the areas where people without IDs live. And then, only if you have a birth certificate, which costs money and takes more time and hassle to get.

Seriously, there are obstructions other than cost that courts take very seriously. Harping on the fee alone, when it's already been established that there are plenty of other obstructions, isn't going to get you anywhere in this argument.
2012-10-02 02:23:56 PM
1 votes:

Alassra: I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.

The issue becomes timing and equal access. Chiming in to what another Farker said, the majority (i.e. roughly 67% versus 33%) of PA is considered RURAL. As a result, getting to a DMZ during the available hours when you're a full-time worker or have limited access to transportation becomes an obstacle. There are counties where a DMV doesn't exist - especially with Saturday or evening hours). Not mention that unlike FL, you can't make an appointment for your photo ID (I used to love that about FL). It's one thing to be able to vote in your are, it's another to have to travel nearly an hour to go get your ID - and then in some cases, only to be told that the verification information you've brought isn't enough and you have to go get more and make ANOTHER visit.

I think in the more urban areas, folks have done a great job to get the word out about the Free ID programs - Rich Fitzgerald (Allegheny County Executive) sponsored one in fact - just an example [not meant to endorse him or not]. the Voter Registration folks need to figure out a way to establish a mobile ID program to ensure that ID isn't a barrier to anyone getting ID to vote.

I'm happy to get on board with this plan and have encouraged all my friends and family to get the word out to folks if they don't have ID. I don't want to make this into a partisan issue, I just want to ensure that EVERYONE in PA has equal access to get their ID.


That and when you have states that don't allow student ID's as a valid form of identification WHILE allowing NRA ID's to be a valid form of identification, the whole GOP concern about "protecting the integrity of our elections" falls on some pretty deaf ears with me.
2012-10-02 02:22:03 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: What is not knowable is how many registrations are incorrect or how many people vote as someone else.


Actually, they know this part: how many people vote as someone else

In PA, the answer is none.
2012-10-02 02:20:04 PM
1 votes:
I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.

The issue becomes timing and equal access. Chiming in to what another Farker said, the majority (i.e. roughly 67% versus 33%) of PA is considered RURAL. As a result, getting to a DMZ during the available hours when you're a full-time worker or have limited access to transportation becomes an obstacle. There are counties where a DMV doesn't exist - especially with Saturday or evening hours). Not mention that unlike FL, you can't make an appointment for your photo ID (I used to love that about FL). It's one thing to be able to vote in your are, it's another to have to travel nearly an hour to go get your ID - and then in some cases, only to be told that the verification information you've brought isn't enough and you have to go get more and make ANOTHER visit.

I think in the more urban areas, folks have done a great job to get the word out about the Free ID programs - Rich Fitzgerald (Allegheny County Executive) sponsored one in fact - just an example [not meant to endorse him or not]. the Voter Registration folks need to figure out a way to establish a mobile ID program to ensure that ID isn't a barrier to anyone getting ID to vote.

I'm happy to get on board with this plan and have encouraged all my friends and family to get the word out to folks if they don't have ID. I don't want to make this into a partisan issue, I just want to ensure that EVERYONE in PA has equal access to get their ID.
2012-10-02 02:19:01 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: You are a pathetically ignorant little shiate. If I was the president I'd ban you from voting out of concern that you lack the intelligence to cast a farking ballot, you malodorous perverted little twit.


1) You're the ignoramous here who thinks everyone has routine internet access.

2) The bolded section right here is what's really behind this: conservatives don't believe in universal suffrage. They think certain classes of people aren't good enough to vote. It angers them that members of certain groups, sometimes defined by immutable characteristics, are allowed to vote at all.
2012-10-02 02:17:40 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: Ehcks: Leeds: Ehcks: If this law were to pass in MO I would go from four eligible ID cards and a number of other eligible ID forms to zero.

I would then be required to purchase a new ID just for voting. The PA card costs $13.50. I'm so broke I can't even afford that right now. Screw you Republicans.


You get 0 out of 10 for your troll attempt.

$0 != $13.50, dumbass

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/voter/voteridlaw.shtml
For a Secure Pennsylvania Photo ID
$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/voterid/VoterAffirmationNoProofo f ID.pdf

I would not be able to do so because I have ID from the state of Missouri that would not be eligible under a Missouri-equivalent to this law.

Now you're pissing me the fark off, troll. If you know how to use google, how is it that you can't navigate to the page that says:

Since the Pennsylvania Voter ID law was enacted in March, PennDOT has been working closely with the Department of State to ensure that every voter has the opportunity to obtain photo identification. If you don't possess photo identification for voting purposes, you will be able to obtain a new Department of State voter identification card for free by visiting a PennDOT Driver License Center.

And even if you are a total fail-boat when it comes to using a search engine, can't you learn how to hit "ctrl-f" and search up on this very page to where the quotes and links prove that these ID's are free??? Hint- look here.

You are a pathetically ignorant little shiate. If I was the president I'd ban you from voting out of concern that you lack the intelligence to cast a farking ballot, you malodorous perverted little twit.


Umm.....even the PA Supreme Court thought the state had not met the burden of proof that they wouldn't disenfranchise voters,

Did you forget that? Or is that too blunt to register in your lizard brain?
2012-10-02 02:12:05 PM
1 votes:

Nutsac_Jim: kronicfeld: No, sorry, you can't throw up eleventh-hour barriers to vote and claim that they won't have a substantial impact.

6 months is the eleventh hour?

How slow do you have to walk in order to not get a free ID card in 6 months?


Free is relative... how do you think poor rural people are gonna do this? Magic? Getting people to take you to the dmv and sit with you for six hours is gonna cost you a ton of gas money at the very least. Aside from that, does it really matter at what time they throw up the barriers to voting? I mean, why are we punishing every non-driver in the state and treating them all like we assume they're committing felonies? For the record, my grandmom doesn't walk at all. =P
2012-10-02 02:10:53 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Poor people can't afford cars. Most people getting picture ID cards do it to be able to drive. If you don't have a car then why get picture ID?

Now, if you're poor, and don't have picture ID, you'd have to take time to procure it. That means taking time off work which you can't do because you're poor and you need to work how to make money and if you take time off work to get fired. Also, it usually requires transportation such as a car, what you don't have because your poor. You see, in many poor areas the DMV is far away from where you reside: in my city the drivers license center is all the way in downtown and it's a very large city, the transportation makes getting there prohibitive. The county from which I will came only had one drivers license center, and it took 45 minutes to drive there. Some people don't have that time. Further, some centers are only open for a few hours one day a week, making it even more prohibitive.
2012-10-02 02:10:41 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: 2wolves: Leeds:

Still waiting for your proof that illegals are voting en masse, let alone voting straight D.

I'll assume for a minute that you haven't followed all of my posts, or you somehow forgot about them.

There is no data on how many illegals are voting because no one has ever had any means of checking. This law (the very law that was just postponed for reasons still unclear to us all) was the legislators' method of beginning to track this data.

Perhaps you don't live in PA and perhaps you haven't been following this topic on the radio and tv and newspapers like the rest of us have. But this law is the method for providing data about how many of the 70 million illegals are voting illegally.



Actually as the Commonwealth of PA stipulated that there was no evidence of in person voter fraud and they are now bound by that stipulation, an argument that this was an attempt to get that data is to say the least quite suspect.
2012-10-02 02:10:00 PM
1 votes:

HeartBurnKid: jshine: I'm just curious: for those who oppose voter ID laws, is there *any* combination of free IDs, extended hours, etc. -- any combination at all you can think of -- that would be sufficiently lax that its "not as bad" as just leaving the polls open for anyone who says they're legally allowed to vote? Or do you see any form of ID verification, no matter how unobtrusive, to be wrong as a matter of principle?

/doesn't have to be a practical suggestion, I'm just curious what nature and scope of the objections really are

Perhaps if there were a single, nationally-recognized ID card that were freely available from offices located within 20 miles of any person in America that were open 24 hours per day.


Oh, and with same-day turnaround. Almost forgot that part.
2012-10-02 02:08:15 PM
1 votes:

jshine: coeyagi: jshine: I'm just curious: for those who oppose voter ID laws, is there *any* combination of free IDs, extended hours, etc. -- any combination at all you can think of -- that would be sufficiently lax that its "not as bad" as just leaving the polls open for anyone who says they're legally allowed to vote? Or do you see any form of ID verification, no matter how unobtrusive, to be wrong as a matter of principle?

/doesn't have to be a practical suggestion, I'm just curious what nature and scope of the objections really are

The fact that there is no need for it. 0.00004% of votes between 2003 and 2007 were fraudulent. I have posted this fact at least 8 times in this thread.

But please, keep "concerning us" with your concerns.

I don't doubt your stat, but its tangential -- it's not an answer to the question that was asked.


Yes, it's the basis for asking the question in the first place. If you accept that fact, you need not ask the question.
2012-10-02 02:07:54 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


I got one even though I'm poor, but between the money, and having to find a friend to take me to three different dmv offices, each of which had a different "service fee" in addition to the price of the ID itself, it was a pain in the ass that required far more money than I thought. For people who don't drive, simply getting to/from the DMV can also be a pain in the ass... ir rual places, you're talking about paying 40-50 bucks of gas money just to get down to the dmv.
2012-10-02 02:07:19 PM
1 votes:
When I moved to my current state, I tried to get a driver's license there. They wanted my birth certificate. I didn't have one, so I ended up renewing in my old state. Getting a birth certificate is a pain in the butt, especially if you don't know what hospital you were born in (or if you weren't born in a hospital).

For those people who think that state IDs are free and easy to get, how free and easy are they to get without a birth certificate?
2012-10-02 01:59:59 PM
1 votes:
As much as I hate the "both sides are intellectually inconsistent idiots", it really does apply here.

Making me prove my identity violates my constitutional rights!

Liberal - you're talking about voter ID.
Conservative - you're talking about buying guns.

Same standard has to apply to both.
2012-10-02 01:57:00 PM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID. Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?


But do they have ID that will work for the purposes of this law?

"Sorry, that out-of-state driver's license isn't a legitimate ID. Neither is your student ID. Oh, and don't try to vote absentee in your home town either, because you've listed your legal residence as being here."
2012-10-02 01:55:14 PM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: tallguywithglasseson: There goes Romney's last chance at winning Pennsylvania. If they can't keep the poor, elderly, and college students from voting, he's done.

Hard to feel bad about this.


I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID.  Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?


Neither of my grandmothers had a drivers license. One never learned to drive and the other had stopped driving due to age and just let it expire. Neither traveled so they just didn't need one. I also knew many college students when I was in school who didn't drive, didn't care about drinking (or just had older friends buy it for them anyway) and so didn't have drivers licenses. They had a college ID, may have had state ID cards, I don't know. But it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to not have a state-issued ID card.
2012-10-02 01:51:21 PM
1 votes:

qorkfiend: LineNoise: If you can't make a $6 yearly investment in something that is going to make your life so much easier, well, you probably shouldn't have a say in anything to begin with.

Why do you hate the Constitution?


This. If I can't use an IQ test to DQ stupid people like LineNoise from voting, then LineNoise can't require people to pay for something "necessary" to vote, either.
2012-10-02 01:51:16 PM
1 votes:

cptjeff: There's just no reason to ever try. Every person involved has to falsify a few documents, register to vote with those falsified documents, and then show up, wait in line for an hour, wait in line for an hour again... It's just an utterly preposterous plan. There are way too many steps where people could get in big trouble, way too many places where somebody could blow it open and land everyone in jail, and an incredibly small return.


It's a high risk, low reward crime. All the more reason it's completely laughable that someone who is here illegally would willingly invite the scrutiny of the federal government whilst committing a felony and risking deportation to cast a single vote.
2012-10-02 01:50:39 PM
1 votes:
If this law were to pass in MO I would go from four eligible ID cards and a number of other eligible ID forms to zero.

I would then be required to purchase a new ID just for voting. The PA card costs $13.50. I'm so broke I can't even afford that right now. Screw you Republicans.
2012-10-02 01:48:18 PM
1 votes:

elchupacabra: Thanks. So... I can see that throwing a national election using that method is probably infeasible -- although the illegals vote still is a question in my mind. What about regional/local? Governors and stuff.


Illegals voting is a voter registration issue, not a voter ID one. Most states will license you to operate a car regardless of your citizenship status.

And it may be more conceivable to put together enough people to make a dent in a small time local race where vote counts are in the thousands rather than in the millions (and we're not talking governor here- we're talking dogcatcher.), but it's still not going to achieve even close to the same results as getting a few volunteers to drive people to the polls, or getting a church or two to get on a bus to the polls for early voting after services. Black churches for Dems, evangelicals for Reps. 50 people per bus, virtually all of whom will vote for your guy if you pick your targets right, and many of whom might not have been motivated to turn out otherwise, especially in local elections where virtually nobody cares. And perfectly legal.

There are legitimate means for getting more votes, and they're a good bit easier to arrange on a level large enough to matter. You also don't run the risk of one person getting cold feet, blowing the whole thing open, and landing you and the rest of your campaign staff in jail.

There's just no reason to ever try. Every person involved has to falsify a few documents, register to vote with those falsified documents, and then show up, wait in line for an hour, wait in line for an hour again... It's just an utterly preposterous plan. There are way too many steps where people could get in big trouble, way too many places where somebody could blow it open and land everyone in jail, and an incredibly small return.
2012-10-02 01:47:55 PM
1 votes:

dabbletech: My uncle in Philly was a staunch conservative and voted a straight-line Republican ticket until the day he died.

Now, he votes Democrat.


I fail to see how giving a corpse a voter ID card would have prevented that.
2012-10-02 01:46:32 PM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: And without strict voter ID laws, how do we know how much fraud is really out there? People could be voting UNLIMITED number of times, multiplied by the number of people in this country, plus all the dead and phony names used!

AAAAAAAARG!!!

TRUE FACT: There are only about 10,000 people that actually vote once in their own name! The rest of the millions of votes cast are duplicates and dead people, cast by an unknown number of people!

Prove that wrong! If you can't, then it must be true!


Well, presumably if millions of people were voting fraudulently instances where two people attempted to vote under the same name or people attempted to vote under the names of people who are dead would be pretty common. They're not.

Votes are generated inside the machine by a random number generator. The button you push has no affect. Prove that wrong.

/if you're gonna do voter fraud, that's how you'd do it
2012-10-02 01:46:17 PM
1 votes:

organizmx: The lawmakers who passed this came flat out and said they were doing so to help Romney win PA, so good.

If laws like this HAVE to be implemented, do it now for the election four years from now, so everyone has plenty of time to get an ID. Not a month before the election.


EXACTLY. Make the law go into effect on Nov. 7, and at the same time start issuing state ID cards for free to anyone who doesn't have a license. Then I won't have a problem with it. But between the timing and the statements made by Republican lawmakers, it's pretty damn obvious what the real intent was.
2012-10-02 01:44:31 PM
1 votes:

darkedgefan: Yea, it is OK to ask people for IDs for alcohol and smokes, but not to vote!


Can I live in this imaginary land you live in where smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol is a right that would qualify as an unconstitutional tax if I had to pay for an ID to get them?
2012-10-02 01:42:19 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: theknuckler_33: You're freedom protecting GOP poll

ROFLMAO...
MY what?!?!?!

Libertarian dude.
/believes in total open borders


It wasn't meant to imply your party affiliation as much as to answer your question. The GOP overwhelmingly favor these voter ID laws because of the apparently widespread voting by illegals. There is (or should be) a GOP poll watcher at every polling location. It is a bit shocking that, if non-citizen voting is so widespread, that these poll watchers have not been able to challenge more ballots than what appears to have been reported since... I really haven't been able to find any cases myself of in-person vote fraud at all (of any kind).
2012-10-02 01:40:45 PM
1 votes:

super_grass: '"Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

"The constitutionality of the law was not a question before Simpson."

You'll have a year or so to get an ID, get on it.'



In other words, Democrats got exactly what they wanted: a bureaucratic stay of enforcement on a perfectly constitutional law, which stays in effect just long enough to keep a loophole open through the November election.

Meanwhile, picture an equivalent scenario:
An person walks into a liquor store and asks for a bottle of vodka. Instead of the customer having to show photo ID, the liquor store has a registry of people who are of age and may legally buy alcohol. The clerk asks the customer his name, and he answers, "Hunter S. Thompson." "That's funny," says the clerk, "I could swear I read that someone with that name had died...do you have any form of photo identification?" The customer, of undetermined age, answers, "You silly man, you know it's illegal for you to require that I show ID before making my purchase. Look me up on your list, my name is there." ...And sure enough, it is. The clerk has no legal choice but to take the customer's word, and his money, and send him out with the vodka.

None of you -- especially those with teenage children -- would ever accept this honor-system paradigm for something as trivial as buying a six-pack of beer. Why would you accept it in a matter as important as deciding the leadership of the country?
2012-10-02 01:38:51 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: theknuckler_33: Throwing around that 7-20 million number as a number of ballots cast is disingenuous... and that is being kind

Whoa...wait right there! Go back and look at what i said. I said POTENTIAL! I even bolded it to avoid this very type of attack.


I didn't read every one of your posts, but that word wasn't in the quote I used, but fair enough.

Someone earlier posted lmgtfy link for "ILLEGAL alien voting" (I thought the all caps for "illegal" was cute) as 'evidence' of illegals casting ballots and I clicked the first link just for shiats and giggles.

It stated that the GAO found that "up to" 3 % of people called for jury duty in one district court (people called for jury duty come from voter registration lists) over a 2 year period were not US citizens.

It goes without saying that being registered and casting a ballot are two completely different things. Not to mention that not being a US citizen is not the same thing as an illegal alien. That article doesn't say where that district court was, but I'll assume it was Florida since a big chunk of that article discusses Florida. Now I'm not sure how things are in Florida, but in Pa. you can register to vote when you get your driver's license. I'm pretty sure non-US citizens who are legal residents (presumably a lot of people in Florida) can get a driver's license and it is certainly plausible that many of them just fill out the registration part of the form thinking it is required to get their driver's license.

None of this indicates that these non-US citizens (again, not necessarily illegals) are actually casting ballots.

Later, the article states "the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state." without any numbers or citations.

Even this article warning of the dangers of illegals voting suggests that "Thousands of non-citizens are registered to vote in some states, and tens if not hundreds of thousands in total may be present on the voter rolls nationwide."... again, not illegals, just non-US citizens. Not that it would be better for legal US resident non-citizens to vote, just making the distinction since it is perfectly legal for legal resident non-US citizens to get picture IDs like driver's licenses. But even so, clearly they are suggesting the number of these non-US citizens is nowhere NEAR the magnitude of millions.

And the rest is just a screed on the inefficacy of current laws, etc. No evidence of non US citizens casting ballots except a vague reference to the DOJ prosecuting more non-citizen voting cases in Florida that any other state without any references to numbers, time frames, etc.

Granted, that was only one article that I looked at, but the burden of proof of this supposedly wide-spread activity of non-US citizens voting is on the accuser trying to implement laws that could disenfranchise actual legal US citizens from voting and that should be entirely avoided.
2012-10-02 01:37:28 PM
1 votes:

justtray: 1) We can prove that voter ID laws disenfranchise legitmate voters at significant levels..

2) We cannot prove that illegal voter fraud is occurring at a significant level.

3) Therefore, voter fraud is a problem and must be stopped.

/Republican logic.


Allow me to retort.

Point 1 is total bullshiate. Even the court ruled in previous months that this would not disenfranchise anyone. Even the people that the ACLU put on the stand as examples of people who would not be able to vote have ALL since found the 10 minutes required to pick up their free ID's. Seriously, every single one of them.

Point 2 is an important point. Until this law was passed there was zero method to determine how significant this problem is. The law was the fix for this issue as it provided a means of actually gathering the data for the very first time.

Point 3 is of course true.
2012-10-02 01:34:17 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: 2wolves: Leeds: Has anyone pointed out that the numbers of illegals currently voting hasn't been tabulated? And has anyone mentioned that the reason is that up until this law there was no way to know how widespread this fraud has been?

Because that's sort of key to understanding this entire debate.

Has anyone mentioned that Mr. Obama has deported more illegals in one term than Mr. Bush, the Lesser did in two?

Perhaps you are right and GWB was nicer to illegals. But the fact remains that they tend to support the Dems regardless of who would treat them better.


No, it's exactly because Dems treat them better. Many latinos are very relgiious and would otherwise vote for the Republcans, if they weren't actively attempting to treat them as subhuman.
2012-10-02 01:33:07 PM
1 votes:

you have pee hands: mr lawson: Whoa...wait right there! Go back and look at what i said. I said POTENTIAL! I even bolded it to avoid this very type of attack.

Because in the absence of any sort of actual statistics regarding fraud it's just a big number for shock value which is senseless fearmongering.


And without strict voter ID laws, how do we know how much fraud is really out there? People could be voting UNLIMITED number of times, multiplied by the number of people in this country, plus all the dead and phony names used!

AAAAAAAARG!!!

TRUE FACT: There are only about 10,000 people that actually vote once in their own name! The rest of the millions of votes cast are duplicates and dead people, cast by an unknown number of people!

Prove that wrong! If you can't, then it must be true!
2012-10-02 01:32:51 PM
1 votes:

mrshowrules: You realize that giving your word/swearing is exactly how you get the VoterID card right?


*Facepalm*

I seriously did NOT know that.

you are correct then.

So why don't we have open borders yet?
Right..GOP
2012-10-02 01:31:09 PM
1 votes:

Leeds: Has anyone pointed out that the numbers of illegals currently voting hasn't been tabulated? And has anyone mentioned that the reason is that up until this law there was no way to know how widespread this fraud has been?

Because that's sort of key to understanding this entire debate.


Has anyone mentioned that Mr. Obama has deported more illegals in one term than Mr. Bush, the Lesser did in two?
2012-10-02 01:30:11 PM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID. Is that a problem in Pennsylvania?


is the ID valid? Does it match the spelling EXACTLY as it appears on the voter registration?

Indiana, for people who voted in 2006, 10.7% of the people did not have a state issued ID or a drivers license. (Source, PDF) 13.9% did not have an ID that had their full legal name on it. 14.1% did not have a valid ID that exactly matched their voter registration.

Yes, it's a problem in Pennsylvania as well.
2012-10-02 01:27:07 PM
1 votes:

cptjeff: elchupacabra: Ok, assuming the rate of fraud is actually low and not an effect on elections, I'd ask why that would be the case?

Most of the people in here seem apt to assume the "other party" would stoop to any level to win, including commit voter fraud. So:

1. It's nearly impossible to commit voter fraud?
2. You can't commit enough fraud to swing an election?
3. We're willing to live with the risk in order to protect the rights of voters?
4. We'll always catch the "other party" cheating?

Not sure why the response seems to always be "do absolutely nothing" here.

It is infinitely easier to commit election fraud than it would be to commit voter fraud at any level large enough to have any effect whatsoever. If you program a backdoor into the vote counting system that allows you to modify the numbers, if you build voting machines and multiply the democratic votes by .97 and the republican votes by 1.03, for example. Or you can go with voter suppression, or voter intimidation, or voter confusion (the mailers saying that Democrats vote on Nov. 7, while Republicans vote on Nov. 6th, for example).

In person voter fraud, on the other hand, would take a massive mobilization in order to have even a tiny effect, and somebody would talk. Even if nobody talked, if it was happening at that high a level, somebody would notice. It just flat out doesn't work very well.

It doesn't happen because, even if you grant that somebody would go to extreme lengths to swing an election, it's an incredibly inefficient way of doing so. If you were actually trying to swing the outcome of an election, regardless of the legitimacy of the means, in person voter fraud would be at the bottom of the list. Absentee fraud, maybe, but voter ID laws don't come anywhere close to addressing that.


Thanks. So... I can see that throwing a national election using that method is probably infeasible -- although the illegals vote still is a question in my mind. What about regional/local? Governors and stuff.
2012-10-02 01:25:59 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: Whoa...wait right there! Go back and look at what i said. I said POTENTIAL! I even bolded it to avoid this very type of attack.


Because in the absence of any sort of actual statistics regarding fraud it's just a big number for shock value which is senseless fearmongering.
2012-10-02 01:24:44 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: justtray: Correct. Because there is no evidence of any widespread voting fraud.

and how would, dare i ask, evidence be procured with the current system?

How does one go about proving citizenship of a voter? Their word?


You're freedom protecting GOP poll watchers can challenge any ballot if I am not mistaken. With the millions of illegals casting ballots in every presidential election, it is shocking that more illegal aliens going to polling stations, risking deportation, have not been detected by these diligent poll watchers.
2012-10-02 01:22:45 PM
1 votes:

elchupacabra: Ok, assuming the rate of fraud is actually low and not an effect on elections, I'd ask why that would be the case?

Most of the people in here seem apt to assume the "other party" would stoop to any level to win, including commit voter fraud. So:

1. It's nearly impossible to commit voter fraud?
2. You can't commit enough fraud to swing an election?
3. We're willing to live with the risk in order to protect the rights of voters?
4. We'll always catch the "other party" cheating?

Not sure why the response seems to always be "do absolutely nothing" here.


It is infinitely easier to commit election fraud than it would be to commit voter fraud at any level large enough to have any effect whatsoever. If you program a backdoor into the vote counting system that allows you to modify the numbers, if you build voting machines and multiply the democratic votes by .97 and the republican votes by 1.03, for example. Or you can go with voter suppression, or voter intimidation, or voter confusion (the mailers saying that Democrats vote on Nov. 7, while Republicans vote on Nov. 6th, for example).

In person voter fraud, on the other hand, would take a massive mobilization in order to have even a tiny effect, and somebody would talk. Even if nobody talked, if it was happening at that high a level, somebody would notice. It just flat out doesn't work very well.

It doesn't happen because, even if you grant that somebody would go to extreme lengths to swing an election, it's an incredibly inefficient way of doing so. If you were actually trying to swing the outcome of an election, regardless of the legitimacy of the means, in person voter fraud would be at the bottom of the list. Absentee fraud, maybe, but voter ID laws don't come anywhere close to addressing that.
2012-10-02 01:22:19 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: How does one go about proving citizenship of a voter? Their word?


You realize that giving your word/swearing is exactly how you get the VoterID card right? There is no other requirement but to swear that you don't have other ID. It is a meaningless exercise only meant to disenfranchise voters.
2012-10-02 01:12:52 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: So 7-20 million potential illegal votes does not concern you at all?



That something can happen does not mean it will, or that it does in any significant way. The state of Pennsylvania couldn't provide any evidence of significant (and in their case, any at all) in-person voter fraud in court. You can't provide any evidence either. There is no problem to fix.
2012-10-02 01:11:47 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: Dusk-You-n-Me: The guy who thinks google search results equal evidence is concerned, you guys.

So 7-20 million potential illegal votes does not concern you at all?


No. Prove it's happening and you might have something. A google search to a bunch of right wing sites proves nothing.
2012-10-02 01:09:54 PM
1 votes:
OOps, did I drop this here?
Citizens United ruling accounts for 78 percent of 2012 election spending

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/24/citizens-united-ruling-accounts - for-78-percent-of-2012-election-spending/

Is this your idea of a free and honest election?
Peeps, we float down a river of chit in a leaky canoe.
And ya'll pick up one turd and declare it offends thee.
2012-10-02 01:08:56 PM
1 votes:
To the Derpers:


Prove that illegals and dead people were voting illegally in the Penn. elections, and I'll stand with you.
2012-10-02 01:07:59 PM
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:

So the people without id to vote never do any of these thigs either, right?


Let's edit, shall we? Strikethrough on stuff that's wrong, stuff that doesn't apply to poor people deleted outright.

adopt a pet Depends on from where. Getting a dog from the "free puppies" ad in the classified won't require one.
purchase a gun Not via private sale. It may be required in theory in some places, but not in practice.
obtain a bank account Well, this one is marginally true. Since 9/11, it's required, though there are a lot of acceptable IDs for a bank account that aren't acceptable for voting, under most of these laws. Like a student ID.
obtain a credit card You're kidding, right?
write a check
make a credit card purchase
Have you ever used a credit card before? Yes, theoretically they can ask for one, but it never happens in practice. And there are lots of places where you swipe it yourself, and no ID could ever be checked.
apply for a loan to purchase anything Nope, a SS Card, a bill with your address on it, so on and so forth. You can use forms of ID not valid for voting.
to prove your age True, but not always necessary. If you're old enough and buying with cash, nobody's going to ask your age.
to get married; to receive a marriage license A little redundant, don't you think? And you can get by without a photo ID valid for voting under these laws.
to get medical care No. Especially if you're using the emergency room as primary care.
to get a job Uh, no. A photo ID is useful, but not mandatory. And there's this thing known as the "informal sector" where people get paid in cash. It's still a job.
to get a post office box They accept numerous non photo IDs- including a Voter Registration card.
to cash a paycheck Not if you have a bank account- which, as we've established, doesn't require a photo ID, especially if you've had one since before the law toughening the security on them. I don't know how payday lenders work.
rent an apartment Nien. They'll take non photo IDs if you have the money. Many places may not even require that.
receive welfare Proof of residency is required. A bill suffices, you don't even need a non photo ID.
receive social security As above.
receive food stamps You need to verify identity. Pay stub, bill, hell, they can even call and talk to shelter workers if you're living on the streets.
buy cigarettes You have to be 18. If you're obviously above that, you're not often asked to show ID.
buy alcohol You have to be 21. If you're obviously above that, you're not often asked to show ID.
buy a bus ticket No. Not anywhere close. I've taken the bus a few times, both for long distance and for local routes. I have never been asked for any form of ID, and I have never seen anybody else present any.
buy a cell phone Prepaid phones sure as hell don't require one. They just require cash at the register.
buy any antihistimine
go in to a casino You have to meet an age requirement, not an ID requirement. There's a difference.
go in to a bar Again, age requirement, and not every bar (not many, really) checks IDs at the door.
have your water turned on
have your electricity turned on
have your cable turned on
have your gas turned on
obtain trash pick up service
pick up a package from the post office
pick up a package from fed ex
pick up a package from ups
Non photo ids, or photo IDs that aren't acceptable for voting, are fine in most all cases. And very few people pick up a package from these places, they usually leave them at your front door.
pick up a prescription
At my pharmacy, you walk up and ask for it, then you pay (or bill it to your account) and walk out. No ID required.


Basically, your list is completely wrong. There are a hell of a lot of people who manage to live without photo ID, and the fact that you can't recognize that not everyone lives the same way you do does not speak well of your mental ability.
2012-10-02 01:07:16 PM
1 votes:
Voter fraud - now available to everyone.
2012-10-02 01:07:05 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: justtray: Marine1: Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:

But, but, poor people never do any of that...

You were already told that ID is not a requirement for nearly all of those things, but you've chosen to ignore it with delfections. No one is going to take you seriously if you keep up your barriers to fact. The FACTS are IDs are not a legal requirement to nearly ALL of those listed. Address the point directly, or discontinue this meritless line or argument. Or just become fully ignored like I'm sure most people have you already set to.

Actually, I gave you several examples for that stuff... so... you're the meritless one.


RyogaM: theknuckler_33: Election workers will still be allowed to ask voters for a valid photo ID, but people without it can vote on a regular voting machine in the polling place and would not have to cast a provisional ballot or prove their identity to election officials after the election.

So, do I refuse to show my ID if I am asked?

Marine1: Yes, because poor people don't live in apartments, don't purchase any tobacco or cigarettes, don't cash paychecks, and don't drive.

You don't need ID to rent an apartment, or purchase tobacco or alcohol. If the renter is willing to take your word for it who you are, or, if the rented property is under someone else's name, you'd not need ID. If the alcohol and tobacco sellers are willing to sell to you without an ID, because they know you or believe you are old enough to purchase those products, you can do so without ID. Poor people may take public transport of rely on biking or friends to get them places, neither requires ID. If I get a paycheck in my name, I can endorse it over to someone else who has a bank account, who would be able to cash the check. The poor also do a lot of underground, paid by cash, work. 

I voted in my first four presidential elections without ID. Also, a whole bunch of off-year and primary voting elections, too.


Welcome to the ignore list Marine1. You should feel embarrassed for how stupid you looked in this thread today. Now a lot of people will never hear anything you have to say again because of it.
2012-10-02 01:04:45 PM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Good to know that they can commit fraud just long enough to let Obama win the state one last time.


"Voter Fraud" is like "Satanism" back in the 80
s and 90's. It doesn't REALY exist, but the truly stupid out there panic and shiat their drawers every time it grows up.

Good thing you're ot one of those stupid people, right?
2012-10-02 01:03:05 PM
1 votes:
"I don't agree with it, but it's the law," one person said.

With his group now in line, Martin waits outside.

And waits...And waits...And waits...

He remembers last week...

"We brought one gentleman in- I think the whole total trip was four hours when we got back home."

It's now nearly 11:30 a.m. and Joseph Fowler emerges- frustrated. Because he wasn't already registered to vote, Fowler could not get an ID card.

Bruce Heller hobbles into the photo line, after a painful wait to get his documents in order.

"When he called my number, over on the other side, I couldn't even get out of my chair."

It's nearly noon and Shirley Montgomery emerges from one line- and moves straight to another.

Getting a photo ID will cost Shirley and the others about four-and-a-half hours, from pick-up in Pottstown, to arrival back home.

This experience leads us to ask, could you afford to take half a day away from your job or family to get a new ID?


Anyone who think this isn't disgusting should DIAF.
2012-10-02 12:57:28 PM
1 votes:
I live in an area that's not exactly impoverished, but pretty much everyone is struggling to make ends meet. The DMV is only open 4 days per week and closes at 4pm. It used to be open 2 Saturdays per month, but the last I checked it had gone down to one Saturday per month, and it closes at 2pm.

If you're lucky enough to have a job where taking occasional time off to run errands isn't a big deal, hooray for you. But a great many people only get a few personal/sick days off every year, and they have to be used wisely.
2012-10-02 12:56:27 PM
1 votes:

iheartscotch: The actual issue is people that live in two states. New York and Florida for example. It is POSSIBLE that a snow bird could POTENTIALLY vote in both states. I know, I know; it's a bit of a stretch; but that doesn't change the fact that it could happen.

/ I know; I'm worse than hitler


Voter ID laws would do nothing to prevent that sort of thing.

They only check to see whether you are who you say you are. The poll workers have no way of knowing whether you also have ID and are registered in another state.
2012-10-02 12:55:23 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: Lionel Mandrake: The argument is that it amounts to a poll tax, results in keeping eligible voters from voting, and addresses a non-existent "problem"

The way it is now it allows "INELIGIBLE" voters (illegals) to vote.

Do you believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be able to vote?


Conservatives demand that not a single illegal cast a ballot even if that means US citizens are unfairly prevented from voting.

Liberals demand that not a single US citizen by unfairly prevented from voting even if that means an illegal ballot can be cast.

Denying any US citizen their constitutionally protected right to vote under ANY circumstance is a despicable position to take especially in the absence of any evidence whatsoever that illegals are actually casting ballots.
2012-10-02 12:53:20 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: This text is now purple: dustygrimp: Because the .00004% of votes cast that were proven fraudulent over the last 4 years is a big problem.

Margin of victory for Kennedy over Nixon, 1960: 0.013%.
Margin of victory for Bush over Gore, 2000: 0.002%.

It doesn't necessarily take much to swing an election.

You realize that you're three and two orders of magnitude off, respectively?

[24.media.tumblr.com image 500x221]
What an order of magnitude may look like.


Off even more than that. The estimated .00004% number is over four years and across all elections during that time.
2012-10-02 12:53:01 PM
1 votes:

amindtat: mr lawson: The way it is now it allows "INELIGIBLE" voters (illegals) to vote.

Do you believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be able to vote?

How about in order to vote, you should be able to pass the citizenship test whether you are legal or illegal?


That's a poll test and is illegal because the it was used as a way of disenfranchising black voters.

But I'd make it a condition of running for office, certainly.
2012-10-02 12:52:03 PM
1 votes:

mr lawson: Lionel Mandrake: The argument is that it amounts to a poll tax, results in keeping eligible voters from voting, and addresses a non-existent "problem"

The way it is now it allows "INELIGIBLE" voters (illegals) to vote.

Do you believe ILLEGAL immigrants should be able to vote?


No. Is this a problem? Or do you just assume that loads of illegals are fraudulently and nefariously voting - and risking being caught - just to tip local elections? Please, give me examples.
2012-10-02 12:51:55 PM
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: Election workers will still be allowed to ask voters for a valid photo ID, but people without it can vote on a regular voting machine in the polling place and would not have to cast a provisional ballot or prove their identity to election officials after the election.

So, do I refuse to show my ID if I am asked?


Marine1: Yes, because poor people don't live in apartments, don't purchase any tobacco or cigarettes, don't cash paychecks, and don't drive.


You don't need ID to rent an apartment, or purchase tobacco or alcohol. If the renter is willing to take your word for it who you are, or, if the rented property is under someone else's name, you'd not need ID. If the alcohol and tobacco sellers are willing to sell to you without an ID, because they know you or believe you are old enough to purchase those products, you can do so without ID. Poor people may take public transport of rely on biking or friends to get them places, neither requires ID. If I get a paycheck in my name, I can endorse it over to someone else who has a bank account, who would be able to cash the check. The poor also do a lot of underground, paid by cash, work. 

I voted in my first four presidential elections without ID. Also, a whole bunch of off-year and primary voting elections, too.
2012-10-02 12:45:49 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: justtray: Marine1: Disposable Rob: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?

I liked how you list things that only people with money do. You do have the sense to realize that poverty is a major disadvantage, though. Some of us try to focus on that, but then Republicans complain that poor people own refrigerators and get government cell phones.

Yes, because poor people don't live in apartments, don't purchase any tobacco or cigarettes, don't cash paychecks, and don't drive.

That's shiat you do no matter what your income level.

An ID isn't required to buy alcohol or cigarettes, which was already told to you. Occasionally you have to prove your age, but that's just the discretion of the shop owner.

You're reaching, and simultaneously pretending like you aren't bias. Just go the fark away moron. You've been shot down so many times in here you should be embarrassed for yourself.

It isn't required to buy alcohol or cigarettes? Let me tell all of the local high school burnouts to move to your locale so they can get their stuff ...


when was the last time you were behind a guy in his 50's/60's buy a pack of smokes and a bottle of vodak at the liquor store? did he get ID'd??

hell i'm 30 and smoke AND drink and i get carded MAYBE 1/20 of those kinds of purchases.

/inb4 'oh you just go to the same store'
//don't
///reality is a little more complicated than your personal worldview, friend
2012-10-02 12:42:05 PM
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: People never card me writting checks so that means i dont have to have one* DERRP

Seriously? That is your argument? Because people not enforcing the law is proof you dont have to have ID or obey the law?? WOW, VOTE OBAMA!!!


The argument is that it amounts to a poll tax, results in keeping eligible voters from voting, and addresses a non-existent "problem"
2012-10-02 12:36:28 PM
1 votes:

Loadmaster: So I guess we're stuck with voter fraud and ballot box stuffing here in America, home to the best technology in the world.

Meanwhile, they seemed to have mostly solved the problem in a third-world backwater proto-nation that only recently got their own democratic elections for the first time in their entire 6,000-year history:


[jimmyakin.com image 331x450]

[imgc.artprintimages.com image 366x488]

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 273x253]

[img5.ranchoweb.com image 250x344]


Not only that but they have hundreds of people running for the same office....we get 2 corporate sponsored figureheads and call it democracy that should be the envy of every nation on earth.....but as long as it's our corporate sponsored figurehead we are ok with it.
2012-10-02 12:34:52 PM
1 votes:

jabelar: The US has got to be the only Western democracies that doesn't require ID to vote. It is really asinine that you wouldn't. I'm as liberal as they come, and grew up in Canada, and even those commies hosers require ID.


And you wonder why Stephen Harper's your PM...

/God, Obama would wipe the floor with Harper.
2012-10-02 12:34:18 PM
1 votes:
So I guess we're stuck with voter fraud and ballot box stuffing here in America, home to the best technology in the world.

Meanwhile, they seemed to have mostly solved the problem in a third-world backwater proto-nation that only recently got their own democratic elections for the first time in their entire 6,000-year history:


jimmyakin.com

imgc.artprintimages.com

3.bp.blogspot.com

img5.ranchoweb.com
2012-10-02 12:29:03 PM
1 votes:
What's so good about this? Is it so wrong to verify someone is who they say they are and properly registered before you vote? Seriously, it takes like 2 freakin' seconds to whip that card out.

You get carded when you buy a gun, or buy booze and all sorts of other crap... what's so different about casting in a vote to decide who runs out entire country for 4 more years?
2012-10-02 12:28:56 PM
1 votes:

Great_Milenko: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving (this applies to urban poor)
Purchasing a firearm (only if you buy it from a gun shop or bought it in the last decade or so)
Carrying a firearm (only if you bother to get a concealed carry permit)
Cashing a check (no idea how check cashing stores work, but an ID that works there might not work at the polls)
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?

They're called poor people. I've taken the liberty of striking out the activities that poor people don't do, and bolding the ones where you're just plain wrong, along with a few notes here and there.


You can certainly use a debit or credit card without showing an ID, I do it all the time. I've never seen anybody ask for ID when using a debit card, and I'd be somewhat suspicious if they did.

Walmart offers everything you need to live without an ID. You can get a prepaid credit or debit card which is refilled with direct deposit. It's pretty nice, actually. You can also cash government and business checks there.

The only things you supposedly can't do without an ID at Walmart is cash third party checks or buy alcohol or tobacco, and the last two aren't usually a problem if you look old enough. I may have some problems with Walmart, but they are incredibly helpful to poor people.
2012-10-02 12:27:42 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: justtray: Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: King Something: OhLuverly: Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?

The IDs required are not free; hence, it's a poll tax.

The free IDs have already been cited via articles and PENNDOTs own website....care to try again?

Can you get them by sitting in your house and not spending money on a) birth certificate copy b) bus fare?

People are usually highly motivated to get free stuff....look at how much time effort and planning is put into robbing a clothing store with organized crews of unemployed democrats.....

Getting off your ass to get a job or a free ID is hard though....so lets go spend 5 hours striiping all the wire and copper pipe out of an abandoned home so we can get 14$ at the scrap yard.

Ok, so where is the problem? 0.00003% of votes from 2003-2007. Where is the F*CKING problem?

300 million guns in the United states and 30k deaths from guns including suicide......where is the problem?

A factor of 1000, a false equivilency, and the fact that one of those consequences is an additional vote, where the other is a dead person.

Are you that much of an imbecile to think you had a real argument?

Whats worse....the death from a suicide or the thousands or millions of deaths (depending on whos body count website you use) caused by Bushs terms?

See how much more dangerous getting the wrong person into office by a .0003% margin is?


You could have just said you were an imbecile...

I'm sure you're familiar with this line. "Welcome to ignore!"
2012-10-02 12:27:09 PM
1 votes:

LeoffDaGrate: Eagles409: I love how liberals just assume that poor people and minorities are too stupid to get a free ID card.

I love how some Conservatives, such as yourself, just assume that ID cards, at least ones that are issued by a state or federal government, are free.


Probably because in this instance it has been cited time and time again that the actual IDs are provided free by the state of Pennsylvania.
2012-10-02 12:25:45 PM
1 votes:

HotIgneous Intruder: Maul555: I see there is an avalanche of liberal derp...

/still trying to figure out why Texas was struck down
//Free ID and a free ride to go get it...

If the government provides something, it isn't "free."
Do you also own a "free" mobility scooter?


From the ruling against the law:

"A law that forces poorer citizens to choose between their wages and their franchise unquestionably denies or abridges their right to vote..."

Texas would have offered free voting certificates to voters, but the court felt that the time a potential voter would have had to take to obtain such a certificate would impose a substantial and unusual burden on lower-income communities, as they would almost assuredly have had to forgo wages in order to get the certificate.
2012-10-02 12:25:23 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: Joe Blowme: Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:

But, but, poor people never do any of that...


You were already told that ID is not a requirement for nearly all of those things, but you've chosen to ignore it with delfections. No one is going to take you seriously if you keep up your barriers to fact. The FACTS are IDs are not a legal requirement to nearly ALL of those listed. Address the point directly, or discontinue this meritless line or argument. Or just become fully ignored like I'm sure most people have you already set to.
2012-10-02 12:24:15 PM
1 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Eagles409: I love how liberals just assume that poor people and minorities are too stupid to get a free ID card.

If you're looking for the most recent GOP voter ID talking point, this is it. This, exactly, all over twitter.


Actually, the GOP planned on it. That's why they felt these laws would disenfranchise the poor and brown.

If these policies get enacted with a bit of leeway - like in 2013, I think the GOP will be shocked how many poor and brown people get their free ID card.
2012-10-02 12:22:10 PM
1 votes:

Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still


You sure? Are you REALLY Sure it's just sarcasm?
/The Troll is strong with this headline
2012-10-02 12:20:39 PM
1 votes:

olddinosaur: someonelse: olddinosaur: There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.

citation needed

Go to google and key in "illegal immigrant voting," and you will find about 8.5 million of these citation thingies you love so well.

RTFP, doofus.


I located approximately 5,600,000 "citations" for the claim that Bush is a war criminal. For what reason, then, has he not been brought to trial?

/Citing the number of results from a Google search is effectively an admission of an inability to support a claim.
2012-10-02 12:17:28 PM
1 votes:

Eagles409: I love how liberals just assume that poor people and minorities are too stupid to get a free ID card.


We assume that there are costs to getting the free card that you aren't considering because you're too stupid to understand logistics, breathing, or the square root of 4.
2012-10-02 12:17:25 PM
1 votes:
Valid photo identification is required for the things that follow:
adopt a pet
purchase a home
purchase an automobile
purchase a gun
obtain a bank account
obtain a credit card
obtain a passport
write a check
make a credit card purchase
apply for a loan to purchase anything
to prove your age
to get married
to receive a marriage license
to drive
to buy a house
to close on a house
to get medical care
to get on a plane
to get insurance on anything
to get a job
to get a post office box
to get a hunting license
to get a fishing license
to get a business license
to cash a paycheck
rent an apartment
rent a hotel room
rent a car
rent furniture
rent tools and equipment
receive welfare
receive social security
receive food stamps
buy cigarettes
buy alcohol
buy a bus ticket
buy a cell phone
buy any antihistimine
go in to a casino
go in to a bar
go to college
have your water turned on
have your electricity turned on
have your cable turned on
have your gas turned on
obtain trash pick up service
pick up a package from the post office
pick up a package from fed ex
pick up a package from ups
pick up a prescription

So the people without id to vote never do any of these thigs either, right?
2012-10-02 12:16:46 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: King Something: OhLuverly: Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?

The IDs required are not free; hence, it's a poll tax.

The free IDs have already been cited via articles and PENNDOTs own website....care to try again?

Can you get them by sitting in your house and not spending money on a) birth certificate copy b) bus fare?

People are usually highly motivated to get free stuff....look at how much time effort and planning is put into robbing a clothing store with organized crews of unemployed democrats.....

Getting off your ass to get a job or a free ID is hard though....so lets go spend 5 hours striiping all the wire and copper pipe out of an abandoned home so we can get 14$ at the scrap yard.

Ok, so where is the problem? 0.00003% of votes from 2003-2007. Where is the F*CKING problem?

300 million guns in the United states and 30k deaths from guns including suicide......where is the problem?


A factor of 1000, a false equivilency, and the fact that one of those consequences is an additional vote, where the other is a dead person.

Are you that much of an imbecile to think you had a real argument?
2012-10-02 12:13:17 PM
1 votes:

ltdanman44: a very simple way to prevent voter fraud. finger/thumbprint id scanners at every poll station. We would have a nationwide database and compare to see if you have voted twice.

no names, or addresses taken. it would simply compare your print to see if you voted already. 

/we should have the technology to do this, right?


And hey, since we've got the thumbprints anyway, let's just run them against the FBI's database. Why, it'll help catch criminals, and don't you want that? Or at least, it'll help catch potential suspects.
And of course, since we're not collecting names or addresses, we need some way to nab those suspects, so let's station a police officer next to each scanner. You put your thumb on the scanner, a red light flashes, and you get immediately tased and arrested. It'll help prevent terrorism, too.
2012-10-02 12:13:01 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: coeyagi: coeyagi: Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: coeyagi: Giltric: King Something: OhLuverly: Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?

The IDs required are not free; hence, it's a poll tax.

The free IDs have already been cited via articles and PENNDOTs own website....care to try again?

Can you get them by sitting in your house and not spending money on a) birth certificate copy b) bus fare?

People are usually highly motivated to get free stuff....look at how much time effort and planning is put into robbing a clothing store with organized crews of unemployed democrats.....

Getting off your ass to get a job or a free ID is hard though....so lets go spend 5 hours striiping all the wire and copper pipe out of an abandoned home so we can get 14$ at the scrap yard.

Ok, so where is the problem? 0.00003% of votes from 2003-2007. Where is the F*CKING problem?

300 million guns in the United states and 30k deaths from guns including suicide......where is the problem?

A) Deflection.
B) 0.01% is much greater than 0.00003%

Also:

C) So you admit there's no problem by linking this to something you perceive isn't problematic.
D) There has never been a margin that razor thin where voter fraud has decided an election, also, 30K people die, they're not coming back.

But they may be voting somewhere....


And congrats, Mensa candidate, you just described "election fraud", not "voter fraud".
2012-10-02 12:12:45 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


How about we actually focus on the fact that only one of the things on your list is a Constitutional right, as is voting. You know, because this about rights not just doing things many of which can be done on any given day, which voting can't. And getting an ID can't, as most state offices aren't open evenings, or late on Saturdays, or at all on Sundays. so your list isn't really relevant to having an ID to Vote. (With the possible exception of buying a fire arm.)
2012-10-02 12:10:54 PM
1 votes:

theknuckler_33: hetheeme: The machine in PA is solid blue, so allowing fraud there helps Democrats out more than it would Republicans.

Again, you should try using Google before you say something this asinine.


cache.blippitt.com
That's pretty blue.
2012-10-02 12:08:52 PM
1 votes:

IronTom: Americans overwhelmingly want Voter ID to help prevent fraud.


To say there is fraud, you must first prove it exists.
The judge wasn't convinced.

/Don't like it? Get a lawyer and take your own first-hand knowledge of in-person voting fraud in Pennsylvania to that judge. Quick!
2012-10-02 12:06:17 PM
1 votes:

thornhill: Isn't this actually great news for the GOP? Now they can claim they were cheated out of the election by not just skewed polls, but also voter fraud.


Didn't Al Gore invent that?
2012-10-02 12:05:45 PM
1 votes:

flux: Leeds: Oh my goodness, what if they forget where to vote, or their car breaks down or they hit a deer on the way to the polling stations? We clearly need to send drivers out to pick up every resident in the state to make sure that they get to the polls on time!!! Democrats actually believe this crap

I'd like to hear a good argument why election day shouldn't be a mandated national holiday. Give everyone the day off to vote and volunteer at polling locations. Why not?


I agree; I'll gladly trade Columbus Day for Election Day as a national holiday; Or at least a half day off so you can go vote.
2012-10-02 12:05:18 PM
1 votes:
I'm a little scared to look at the comments section of my local news site on this...

maybe just a peek:

"Most opposed to Voter ID know that cheating is critical to DemocRATS insuring victory. Such corruption!!!!Par for the course-winning-the cause-is far more important than the integrity required to win by the book!! This importance of the cause is illustrated clearly by 2 women-Elizabeth Warren in Mass. and Hillary Clinton!! Eventually, Voter ID laws will be fixed so they pass Constitutional muster."

"So thanks to the democrats , minorities can not be expected to do antthing on their own? They need government help with absolutly everything. Work,school,life,birth control,id's,etc."

"People wake up! We have allowed the wrong people to get in control of our country. The gay/atheists have positioned themselves in positions of power (mayors, judges, politicians) and have destroyed this country."

"Really? This is reverse racism......against those who want honesty and integrity in our election process."

"The USA is going to H fast,, Our country that was fought for by true Americans is a place of the past, Read your history folks, Roman Empire,, Its over,,,, Read your Bible ,, The book your Grandparents used and lived by,, That this Liberal sociery threw away... We as a country are lost"
2012-10-02 12:04:13 PM
1 votes:

fireclown: PonceAlyosha: It is a poll tax and thus violates the constitution. The right to vote is contingent on showing up, nothing else.

The right to vote HOW many times?


Once. We rely on honor to make sure all but the most desperate vote fraudsters do their duty but once. Combined with registration and the stiff penalties, it has worked for several hundred years. Voter IDs are only for one purpose: To make it hard enough for some low-income, mostly democratic voters to say "to hell with it."
2012-10-02 12:03:11 PM
1 votes:

IronTom: Americans overwhelmingly want Voter ID to help prevent fraud. So lovely of the Dem libs to fight against ID.

Even my dog has ID, I guess she is not dumb and lazy.


Americans also overwhelmingly believe angels exist.

Doesn't make it so.
2012-10-02 12:01:55 PM
1 votes:

IronTom: Americans overwhelmingly want Voter ID to help prevent fraud. So lovely of the Dem libs to fight against ID.

Even my dog has ID, I guess she is not dumb and lazy.


Just dumb for hanging with you. Poor pooch.
2012-10-02 12:01:53 PM
1 votes:

IronTom: Americans overwhelmingly want Voter ID to help prevent fraud. So lovely of the Dem libs to fight against ID.

Even my dog has ID, I guess she is not dumb and lazy.


Where is the problem? 0.00003% of the votes from 2003-2007 were fraudulent. Do the majority of Americans want to eat paste too?
2012-10-02 12:00:16 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: 2wolves: Giltric: Aarontology: Giltric: How do you get a job without proper ID? How do you cash the check the job gives you without ID?

The answer to both: Under the table jobs that pay straight cash.

They're pretty common.

Tax cheats?

Off shore accounts?

So you are willing to let people break the law over taxes but in small amounts?

Those 100 million tax cheats start adding up......

What if someone was on probabtion and they violated probation by using the internet....you willing to give him a pass...?


No, I was comparing retail and wholesale.

I just knew I should have spelled it out. My bad.
2012-10-02 11:59:42 AM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: People who complain about getting a free ID, aren't invested enough in the process.


They are American citizens.

They pay taxes.

That's their investment in the process.

Also, there's that whole Constitutional "right to vote" stuff. People say it's a "privilege," and that there's no "right" to vote, but that's bullshiat. Amendments 15, 19, 24 and 26 specifically refer to a citizen's "right to vote" - that it can't be restricted due to age, sex, failure to pay poll tax or age (if the person is over 18), respectively.
2012-10-02 11:58:36 AM
1 votes:
Conservatards on Fark: It's free, it's free!
Rest of us: No, it's not, it costs the person money to go get it and also the taxpayers. Small government WHAR WHAR?
Conservatards: It fixes a problem!
Rest of us: 0.00003% of the votes, dipsh*t.
Conservatards: ....
Conservatards: Dead voters, immigrants, derp!
2012-10-02 11:57:51 AM
1 votes:
The republicker fascists know the only way they can win elections anymore is by only allowing the people who will vote for them to vote.

/Hey, it's worked before.
2012-10-02 11:56:41 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Yes because everyone can afford to skip off work and find transportation to travel in many cases to another city to getting a state issued ID at minimal cost. It not like they have to pay rent and eat. It like Mitt Romney told me, these lazy bums think they have the right not to starve to death.
2012-10-02 11:56:19 AM
1 votes:

what_now: Well, you still need to show ID now (or a current utility bill) if you aren't on the active voting rolls.


Right, you must be registered. A process that isn't broken, so clearly it must be fixed.
2012-10-02 11:55:52 AM
1 votes:

Giltric: King Something: OhLuverly: Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?

The IDs required are not free; hence, it's a poll tax.

The free IDs have already been cited via articles and PENNDOTs own website....care to try again?


Can you get them by sitting in your house and not spending money on a) birth certificate copy b) bus fare?
2012-10-02 11:55:32 AM
1 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: I googled "aliens eat brains" and got 24,900,000 hits, er, citations.

I had no idea there was such an alien brain eating problem. And it's THREE TIMES the problem of illegal immigrant voting. I'll alert the media.


This is why i require aliens present an ID before they abduct me.
2012-10-02 11:55:27 AM
1 votes:

qorkfiend: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.


But then the Republicans would raise hell about the government tracking individuals for no good reason, because that's the first step to fascist rule. It's that kind of wail that's kept national ID cards off the table for decades, in spite of the problems of rampant identity theft and the known flaws in half-assing a people-tracking solution using Social Security numbers.

... or at least, the Republicans I knew would have been against mandatory government-issued IDs for everyone. But where they stand on this voter ID thing seems to belay that... I just don't know who they are anymore.
2012-10-02 11:54:36 AM
1 votes:
0.00003% of votes from 2003 - 2007 have shown voter fraud. -Source: Bush DOJ Report.

Obviously one day in 2008 the soshulists woke up and decided to rape this motherf*cker blind.
2012-10-02 11:54:07 AM
1 votes:

Rwa2play: Aarontology: Almost 250 posts into this thread, and there hasn't been a single thing posted demonstrating voter fraud that would have been prevented by requiring someone to present an ID at the polls.

You shouldn't be surprised.


That's because nobody has first-hand knowledge of in-person voting fraud. There is none.
2012-10-02 11:54:02 AM
1 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: what_now: I'm a polling place worker. I am awesome.

I know you are, and I remember you saying how most of your polling place coworkers are on the elderly side of life, which is consistent with every voting experience I've had.

We're supposed to trust them with properly checking IDs with no training whatsoever?

All to fix a problem that does not exist in any significant way.


Well, you still need to show ID now (or a current utility bill) if you aren't on the active voting rolls.

When the little old lady at the front can't find your name, she sends you to the little old ladies at the back who HAVE had training on this.

Of course, if you had to train ALL the little old ladies (and me) it would be a hell of a lot more expensive. There are about 8 poll workers at every precinct, and usually only two of them are "captains", meaning they have more training and more responsibility.

And yes, I'm usually 30 years younger than anyone else there.
2012-10-02 11:54:00 AM
1 votes:

HotIgneous Intruder: MonkeyAngst: Numerous people, in interviews, articles, blog posts, and here in this very thread, have pointed out what is wrong with the law in general. It is that it requires a state-issued ID, which is not free, which means that a fee must be paid in order to vote, which is specifically outlawed by the Constitution.

And yet, numerous states require photo ID to vote.


How many of those states threw the requirement up at the last minute with the stated intention to deliver the state to their preferred presidential candidate?
2012-10-02 11:53:39 AM
1 votes:
We should retroactively enforce voter ID laws, and declare all elections prior to 2016 null and void.

I mean, if it's such a problem now, then it could have been a problem the entire time, all the way back to Washington (can't count John Hanson, he was president under the Articles, not the Constitution).

So since it's such a huge problem, let's reset everything back to 1788 and start over, just to be safe.

// On a more realistic note, I personally support voter ID laws, but I do have problems with the specific methods of implementation and the timing. The fact that Pennsylvania offers a free ID in conjunction with the law only resolves one of the issues.

I believe that any change that potentially impacts voting in a major federal election through disenfranchisement should only be allowed in the two years immediately following the last federal election; that includes implementation of voter ID laws and redistricting.
2012-10-02 11:53:33 AM
1 votes:
This was such an obvious attempt to disenfranchise Democratic voters it's not even funny. Motivation is the key to understanding these controversial laws. On 6/23/12, Pennsylvania Speaker of the House Mike Turzai gave us the proverbial smoking gun when he said that Pennsylvania's new voter ID law would "allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania."

Why would he say that? Because ID laws are not evenly enforced. I go weeks without showing a photo ID, even when one is legally required because I fit a particular demographic. The only time I am required to show a photo ID is at the air-port. The Pennsylvania law is more strict than TSA screening. If your passport or driver's license lists you as John Farkinson Doe and the Pennsylvania voter list has you down as John F. Doe or (by clerical mistake) John Farkenson Doe, no voting for you.

AFP (Americans for Prosperity) and ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council) have been funding these crappy laws. It's good this Republican judge realized any other decision would have been overturned by the state supreme court.
2012-10-02 11:53:13 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


The poor may not have an ID because they don't need one. No car, no plans to travel outside the country. There may also be a fee to get an ID card, one which the poor can't afford.

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Because the .00004% of votes cast that were proven fraudulent over the last 4 years is a big problem.

AntiNerd: Of course people without what the local official considers "valid ID" will still have to cast a provisional ballot. This will create a lot of uncertainty and confusion which the Republicans are still experts at exploiting. Look for the election to end up in court at the very least.

One thing about it that I found interesting is to see how the vote goes down among provisional ballots. That will settle once and for all just who it is that voter ID laws disenfranchise.


The story I read said that the provisional ballots are not necessary. They vote at a regular booth.
2012-10-02 11:52:43 AM
1 votes:

Giltric: How do you get a job without proper ID? How do you cash the check the job gives you without ID?


Sample proper ID for an I-9: Day care or nursery school record + Social Security card

Neither of those is a proper photo ID for the purposes of voting. Your hair is a bird.
2012-10-02 11:52:31 AM
1 votes:

DeusMeh: thats all well and good, but dude...not nearly enough time has been allowed to actually inform the public (particularly those who need this).


And time and spreading the word = money, taxpayer money.
Ergo, not free.
Also, even if the state pays, which means the taxpayers pay, it's not free because taxpayers are paying for their own IDs.

Kinda circular, but that's life in retard world.
2012-10-02 11:52:31 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: Almost 250 posts into this thread, and there hasn't been a single thing posted demonstrating voter fraud that would have been prevented by requiring someone to present an ID at the polls.


You shouldn't be surprised.
2012-10-02 11:52:24 AM
1 votes:

Giltric: Aarontology: Giltric: How do you get a job without proper ID? How do you cash the check the job gives you without ID?

The answer to both: Under the table jobs that pay straight cash.

They're pretty common.

Tax cheats?


Off shore accounts?
2012-10-02 11:52:21 AM
1 votes:
Not sure how it is elsewhere, but in MI we have to vote at our registered prescinct, give our name which they check off the list, and starting at the last election show an ID. (Not sure if picture was manditory but I used my DL) Even if they just use the registration list, you say your name and you get checked off, no fraud. How hard is it to have a list? Forcing a picture ID 1 month before elections was sucky too, lawmakers.

/let the people vote, get these idiots out of office. Citizens need to plan ahead for next year. Control your govenment.
2012-10-02 11:51:56 AM
1 votes:

ringersol: Marine1: "I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?"

That's just the thing. The law requires a subset of IDs. Keep in mind the legalese.


Good point. Not sure if it was PA or somewhere else, but a college issued student ID was not valid, while a freakin' NRA membership card was.
2012-10-02 11:51:42 AM
1 votes:

snocone: HotWingConspiracy: Giltric: HotWingConspiracy: slykens1: qorkfiend: Oh, ok. Since you can't think of any way it could happen, it must be impossible.

Instead of a moronic snarky reply, please explain some scenarios where a competent person can manage to get through four years of life without needing ID, especially considering all the people and places that request ID.

I did it for 6. Wasn't really difficult.

How did you cash a check?

I didn't.

What span of 6 years was it?

18 - 24

Crap. Here is a CSB and reality.
Bought a new phone yesterday at ITT store. Galaxy S III. Sweet.
They don't take checks.
Their credit card processor does not take debit cards.
OK, good ol'e Benjamins.
They don't keep change.

ID or no ID, you have to carry three forms of payment just to get by.
/ad we are all up in the twisties becaue of ID?


No, it sound like you need 3 forms of payment to buy a new phone from that specific vendor.

Owning an S3 isn't "just getting by".
2012-10-02 11:51:41 AM
1 votes:

Great_Milenko: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving (this applies to urban poor)
Purchasing a firearm (only if you buy it from a gun shop or bought it in the last decade or so)
Carrying a firearm (only if you bother to get a concealed carry permit)
Cashing a check (no idea how check cashing stores work, but an ID that works there might not work at the polls)
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it) - irrelevant for PA
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?

They're called poor people. I've taken the liberty of striking out the activities that poor people don't do, and bolding the ones where you're just plain wrong, along with a few notes here and there.


You know, I live in central Missouri, where it's more or less Columbia and a ton of small towns filled with working-class or lower populations. I grew up in a major metropolitan area with plenty of disadvantaged people. I worked at a bank as a teller as a high school job. I know people, I know their financial habits, probably better than you do. I know you don't like facts, but don't try to can poor people as a bunch of people who do nothing but work and then go off to live in some strange land that they don't rent or own to not drink any alcohol or consume any tobacco.
2012-10-02 11:50:02 AM
1 votes:
Leeds:

So you approve of fixing a problem that doesn't exist and growing government in the process.

Please tell me your degree is in Liberal Arts.
2012-10-02 11:49:53 AM
1 votes:

what_now: I'm a polling place worker. I am awesome.


I know you are, and I remember you saying how most of your polling place coworkers are on the elderly side of life, which is consistent with every voting experience I've had.

We're supposed to trust them with properly checking IDs with no training whatsoever?

All to fix a problem that does not exist in any significant way.
2012-10-02 11:49:42 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: Disposable Rob: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?

I liked how you list things that only people with money do. You do have the sense to realize that poverty is a major disadvantage, though. Some of us try to focus on that, but then Republicans complain that poor people own refrigerators and get government cell phones.

Yes, because poor people don't live in apartments, don't purchase any tobacco or cigarettes, don't cash paychecks, and don't drive.

That's shiat you do no matter what your income level.


An ID isn't required to buy alcohol or cigarettes, which was already told to you. Occasionally you have to prove your age, but that's just the discretion of the shop owner.

You're reaching, and simultaneously pretending like you aren't bias. Just go the fark away moron. You've been shot down so many times in here you should be embarrassed for yourself.
2012-10-02 11:48:49 AM
1 votes:
PROTIP: Next time try not to crow about how the law is there to get your guy elected.
Oh and try to stop acting like greedy noncaring douchebags too..Just a thought.
Florida your next
2012-10-02 11:48:46 AM
1 votes:
How can you honestly, in good faith support these voter ID laws. The republicans have all but come out and explicitly stated this is to disenfranchise those who would vote against them.
2012-10-02 11:48:31 AM
1 votes:
I can accept the argument at face value stating that requiring someone obtain a photo ID is to great of an encumbrance on the poor for a constitutionally guaranteed right. That this presents to great of a challenge for the poor to overcome.

However, that argument quickly falls down in comparison to how other constitutionally guaranteed rights are treated. The right to bear arms is supposedly guaranteed via Amendment 2. However, it is apparently not too great of an encumbrance to requires $431.50 in application and fingerprinting fees in New York.

So a few dollars investment for obtaining a photo ID is too great of a financial burden for one constitutionally protected right, while on the other hand it is perfectly reasonable to have people fork over hundreds of dollars for another?

"Constitutionally protected rights" should either be able to incur an encumbrance to exercise, or they shouldn't. But too many people think double standards are perfectly acceptable.

/pick one or the other
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 11:47:16 AM
1 votes:

Leeds: Dusk-You-n-Me: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

And if they forget their ID? Lose it? Have it stolen? Should they then lose their ability to vote?


Oh my goodness, what if they forget where to vote, or their car breaks down or they hit a deer on the way to the polling stations? We clearly need to send drivers out to pick up every resident in the state to make sure that they get to the polls on time!!!

// Democrats actually believe this crap


Who cares what the Constitution says? Not Republicans apparently.
2012-10-02 11:46:48 AM
1 votes:

farkyinzer: I remember the first time I voted... couldn't believe I didn't have to show ID.


I bet you did, though, when you registered to vote.

That's how it works here in NC. When you register, you have to show ID that proves you live there. After that, you just show up to vote at your precinct, state your name and address, get the form and go vote. The poll worker checks your name off the list and that's that. If you change address, or name, you have to go re-register, and show your new ID indicating the changed address or name. 

/don't see a need for anything else
2012-10-02 11:46:35 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


It costs money to get an ID, and it takes time smack in the middle of your workday to go to the DMV, time you aren't able to take off without losing any more money.
2012-10-02 11:46:32 AM
1 votes:

iheartscotch: As to the voter id issue; you are now required to show an employer your social security card and your id. You are required to show your social security card if you rent a house


You are, however, prohibited from using your social security card as a form of ID when you vote as it is not a picture ID
2012-10-02 11:44:26 AM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?

It doesn't prohibit you from having one. They cost money to obtain. I've heard they cost around $30.00 in this part of Ohio.


Also, they need to take time of their day to get one even if it is for free which could mean the difference between eating that day or voting.

Also with the provisional ballot BS they now have to take even more time off to prove thier voter status.
2012-10-02 11:43:47 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving (this applies to urban poor)
Purchasing a firearm (only if you buy it from a gun shop or bought it in the last decade or so)
Carrying a firearm (only if you bother to get a concealed carry permit)
Cashing a check (no idea how check cashing stores work, but an ID that works there might not work at the polls)
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college
Getting a passport

Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol

Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it) - irrelevant for PA
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on


With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?


They're called poor people. I've taken the liberty of striking out the activities that poor people don't do, and bolding the ones where you're just plain wrong, along with a few notes here and there.
2012-10-02 11:43:30 AM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: But its inconvenient. And so are going to the polls. I mean get out of bed and sometime between 6am and 8pm go somewhere in your neighborhood to vote. Its unconscionable.


Can you get a voter ID at the same location at the same hours? No? You have to go across town and wait in a 6 hour line for a window that's only open for two hours on a Thursday, and if you're not in the front of the line, you have to come back the next week? You mean that one thing may be convenient and the other may not? Heavens!
2012-10-02 11:43:29 AM
1 votes:

vpb: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?

Yes, poor people transfer large amounts of money and travel to foreign countries all the time.
I can see that Republican grasp on reality is as loose as ever.


I'm not saying that they do all the time. I'm just giving an example of stuff you need a photo ID for.

Point is this: regardless of what you think of the law (I'm indifferent), people need an ID, and if they don't have one, they're more or less screwed as far as opportunity in our society. Instead of pointing to minorities and the poor and disabled and elderly and saying "take pity upon them, they're just not able to help themselves", let's forget the Voter ID law for a few seconds and put some legislation that does the following:

Makes it illegal to deny a worker time off to go get a state-issued photo ID
Makes it free for anyone to get an ID if they so choose
Lets those who may not know how to get an ID or unable to get one in the current system get one in a process they can use and understand

And for the last freakin' time, I'm not a Republican supporter any more. Johnson will probably get my vote come November... which is a freaking disappointing election to get your first chance to vote for a president in.
2012-10-02 11:43:03 AM
1 votes:

Leeds: Dusk-You-n-Me: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

And if they forget their ID? Lose it? Have it stolen? Should they then lose their ability to vote?


Oh my goodness, what if they forget where to vote, or their car breaks down or they hit a deer on the way to the polling stations? We clearly need to send drivers out to pick up every resident in the state to make sure that they get to the polls on time!!!

// Democrats actually believe this crap


You didn't answer the question.

Should they then lose their ability to vote?
2012-10-02 11:42:24 AM
1 votes:

Leeds: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.

THE ID's ARE ALREADY FREE.

That's right, FREE.

As in, there is no cost to get a photo ID in PA so that you can vote.

From the government page linked just above:
Since the Pennsylvania Voter ID law was enacted in March, PennDOT has been working closely with the Department of State to ensure that every voter has the opportunity to obtain photo identification. If you don't possess photo identification for voting purposes, you will be able to obtain a new Department of State voter identification card for free by visiting a PennDOT Driver License Center.

How can people in this thread still be pretending that the normal $12 for a 4 year drivers license still applies here? That $3 a year fee is not even applicable, as these ID's are FREE.

// Sorry for all the yelling, I'm pissed that people are being misled by the Democrats


Kind of like how there's no purpose to have voter ID laws because voter fraud literally doesn't happen, well except for by the Republicans. But don't let the premise of your argument to have the law in the first place ironically shoot down your stupid post.
2012-10-02 11:42:24 AM
1 votes:

Leeds: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.

THE ID's ARE ALREADY FREE.

That's right, FREE.

As in, there is no cost to get a photo ID in PA so that you can vote.

From the government page linked just above:
Since the Pennsylvania Voter ID law was enacted in March, PennDOT has been working closely with the Department of State to ensure that every voter has the opportunity to obtain photo identification. If you don't possess photo identification for voting purposes, you will be able to obtain a new Department of State voter identification card for free by visiting a PennDOT Driver License Center.

How can people in this thread still be pretending that the normal $12 for a 4 year drivers license still applies here? That $3 a year fee is not even applicable, as these ID's are FREE.

// Sorry for all the yelling, I'm pissed that people are being misled by the Democrats


I like how you missed the second part of my post: and make sure people have enough time to get one,

They tried to pass this law with less than a few months to get these. What do you think would happened if thousands of old people tried getting a free voter ID in the next 6 weeks?
2012-10-02 11:42:17 AM
1 votes:

moothemagiccow: Giltric: what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.

the ID is free the law was passed in June or July.

Leave it to democrats to procrastinate and complain about having to pay for something that is free......

Not charging $20 does not make it free. The DMV has set hours and a set place that conflicts with many people's work schedule and mobility. The polls already have these time and place restrictions. Why do we need more?


How do you get a job without proper ID? How do you cash the check the job gives you without ID?
2012-10-02 11:41:19 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: "Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

Oh, the Republicans are going to be pissed off they're getting what they wanted, but not in time to achieve their disenfranchisement goals.


THIS

in light of the SAC job and voter registration fraud, i'd say as a country we need voting reform from the ground up. that being said, the time to do ANY of that is not 6 months before a presidential election. thats not even thinly veiled voter suppression, its outright blatant.

/IMHO illegal aliens should be allowed to vote
//just by living here, you should have a voice in how you are governed
///would be closer to democracy than what we currently have
2012-10-02 11:41:18 AM
1 votes:

olddinosaur: There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.


citation needed
2012-10-02 11:40:45 AM
1 votes:

olddinosaur: If you google "illegal immigrant voting" you will find about 8.5 million articles more or less.


That's nothing. You should see what happens when you google "Gagnam Style"
2012-10-02 11:40:21 AM
1 votes:

snocone: Theaetetus: Shiat, entire county results can be altered in an instant with the touch of a button or loading of Flash memory on an electronic voting machine or by modification of the centralized results database, and we're concerned that someone may drive around to multiple polling places in person?

It all adds up.
Dead voters
Corruption of results
Community organization
Voter enlistment and transportation to area votes are needed

Different areas have different cons. Both sides play, share the hate.


Community organization is legal, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

But yes, 100 additional votes due to a group of people using identities of dead people is exactly the same as tens of thousands of additional votes due to one person with overnight access to an electronic voting machine. So, both sides are bad, and Sarah Palin is automatically president.
2012-10-02 11:40:16 AM
1 votes:

Itstoearly: Obama didn't need fraud to win in 2008. He won fair and square using the old tactic of "vote for me and I'll be your sugar daddy" that college kids are stupid enough to love.


Which must be why the GOP is trying to make it as difficult as possible to prevent college kids from voting.

I mean, because they're concerned with the integrity of the system. Yeah, that's it.
2012-10-02 11:40:14 AM
1 votes:

fireclown: The right to vote HOW many times?


If multiple votes are the concern, why aren't Republicans pushing for the same kind of finger-dying they used in Iraq? Certainly some enterprising Republican legislator will find a way to make a personal fortune in dye sales by advancing such litigation.
2012-10-02 11:39:11 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: hetheeme: "Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

Good to know that they can commit fraud just long enough to let Obama win the state one last time.

Nothing wring with the law in general, apparently, just that it would hurt the Obama administration.

You should show us the proof that fraud helped Obama win it last time. or helped any politician in any race win.


Obama didn't need fraud to win in 2008. He won fair and square using the old tactic of "vote for me and I'll be your sugar daddy" that college kids are stupid enough to love.
2012-10-02 11:37:15 AM
1 votes:
You guys do realize that in order to get on the voter rolls, you need to complete the census, right?

So all these people who refused to complete the census because Obama would then round them up and take them to FEMA camps will be the ones hassled.

And by hassled, I mean they will need to show ID or vote in a provisional ballot
2012-10-02 11:37:05 AM
1 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: qorkfiend: Oh, ok. Since you can't think of any way it could happen, it must be impossible.

A whole lot of this in this thread, and every thread of this nature.

A small minded argument.


THIS.

Republicans are so out of touch with reality, they literally cannot fathom poor people and their problems. This has been supported infinite times by Fox News, and is thus an undeniable fact. 97% of poor households have a TRASHCAN and a FRIDGE!
2012-10-02 11:36:34 AM
1 votes:

olddinosaur: If you google "illegal immigrant voting" you will find about 8.5 million articles more or less.

There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.


... because every illegal immigrant who votes puts an article online about it?
2012-10-02 11:35:20 AM
1 votes:
If you google "illegal immigrant voting" you will find about 8.5 million articles more or less.

There are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the USA, and as near as I can tell, most of them vote.

Obama beat McCain by 69 million to 59 million last election; this one is likely to be closer.

How many of those votes were illegal?
2012-10-02 11:34:59 AM
1 votes:

what_now: Make the IDs free and make sure people have enough time to get one, and I'm fine with requiring one at the polls.

Throwing a last minute barrier to getting elected isn't helping democracy, it's disenfranchising the poor.

And you people KNOW THAT, but you really don't care.


the ID is free the law was passed in June or July.

Leave it to democrats to procrastinate and complain about having to pay for something that is free......
2012-10-02 11:34:55 AM
1 votes:

slykens1: qorkfiend: Oh, ok. Since you can't think of any way it could happen, it must be impossible.

Instead of a moronic snarky reply, please explain some scenarios where a competent person can manage to get through four years of life without needing ID, especially considering all the people and places that request ID.


I did it for 6. Wasn't really difficult.
2012-10-02 11:34:54 AM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: old people and poor people who are still americans with a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.


Is the Second Amendment still a "right?" Because here in NJ, getting an ID is the least difficult thing to do in exercising that right. Fingerprinting, background check, Firearm purchaser ID, Permit to Purchase, etc.... and I'll still never be allowed to "bear arms" only "keep."

But this works both ways.... Republicans can't be for Voter ID if they're against Firearm ID. I mean they can, but it's contradictory.
2012-10-02 11:34:33 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: Opening a line of credit


You forgot buying stocks and bonds.
And booking that yacht on the French Riveria.
2012-10-02 11:34:23 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Next time, try changing the rules BEFORE the year of said election, morons. That way the bias and racism isn't so explicit.
2012-10-02 11:34:15 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: moothemagiccow: Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?

Photo ID. Handicapped, elderly and indigent. People you probably don't know or see, but are still citizens with a right to vote.

I already provided adequate ID when I registered to vote. I can vote with my registration card, which lacks a photo.

Then get them a freakin' ID so they can use it in the rest of their lives. Not having that little card more or less screws you over for opportunity in today's world.


I agree. But requiring such an ID to vote isn't going to help them, it's just going to stop them voting.

I don't know the cost required in rounding up the poor and photographing them, but I'm fine with it.
The DMV in my state requires 3 forms of identification and your dick length and doesn't tell you about it until you take the time to visit the office and wait to speak with someone. I'm sure some efficiency can be made there.
2012-10-02 11:34:06 AM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: I believe it is time to ensure the right to vote for everyone.  My three kids should be eligible to vote.  Its guaranteed in the Constitution fer chrissakes!!!!


Are your kids over 18? Because the Constitution explicitly sets that limit.
2012-10-02 11:33:33 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?


So, what you're doing is pretending that all the cases of people who couldn't get the requisite photo ID necessary to vote in PA were fictitious.
2012-10-02 11:32:57 AM
1 votes:

Dimensio: A judge on Tuesday blocked Pennsylvania's divisive voter identification requirement from going into effect on Election Day, delivering a hard-fought victory to Democrats who said it was a ploy to defeat President Barack Obama and other opponents who said it would prevent the elderly and minorities from voting.

This claim is entirely without merit. Democrats would have an audience believe that the governor of Pennsylvania was recorded as stating that the "Voter ID" legislation would enable Mr. Romney to win the state.


Nobody said the governor. It was a state lawmaker.
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 11:31:27 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?


Yes, poor people transfer large amounts of money and travel to foreign countries all the time.
I can see that Republican grasp on reality is as loose as ever.
2012-10-02 11:30:47 AM
1 votes:

Bendal: bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?

Lots of people who are "poor" work at jobs that don't give them time off, or if they don't work, may not have a vehicle, or have to rely on public transportation that doesn't go past whereever the ID office is located and is open. Some states closed ID offices in areas of heavy Democratic populations, others changed the times they were open to very restrictive hours. Other states don't come out with the requirements for the ID's, so someone needing an ID may have to make multiple trips to the office to get all the documents.

/still don't see what the actual goal is, do you?


But, but, but; if the id card place isn't open 24 hours a day, and if there isn't a dedicated bus line; how will undocumented immigrants steal old people's identities?

I'm not being serious; but dems aren't innocent as lambs in all this. Some of the same stuff happens to the 3 republicans in the democratic republic of California.

Depending on the state; it's pointless to be republican or democrat. I think political parties should be outlawed; mainly because of the "us vs. them" attitude that pervades the system.
2012-10-02 11:30:03 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


They do require ID, just not the kind specified in this legislation. The previous laws were working, why is there any need to fix them?

We do not need to challenge the young & poor to stop them voting. They're barely voting as it is.
2012-10-02 11:29:18 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


State IDs usually cost money which violates the 24th amendment forbidding poll taxes. Interestingly enough, adjusting for inflation, poll taxes were only about $18 in today's dollars. So there was a time that even Republicans were concerned enough about the poor having to shell out $18 in order to vote that it became an amendemnt.
2012-10-02 11:28:17 AM
1 votes:

iheartscotch: The actual issue is people that live in two states. New York and Florida for example. It is POSSIBLE that a snow bird could POTENTIALLY vote in both states. I know, I know; it's a bit of a stretch; but that doesn't change the fact that it could happen.


Voter ID laws don't fix that.
2012-10-02 11:28:14 AM
1 votes:

Marine1: Dude, if you don't have an ID, you're off the farking grid these days. I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?


Good point, can you and your Republican buddies drive the people who dont have an ID to the ID place and pay for it so they can vote?
2012-10-02 11:28:14 AM
1 votes:

kronicfeld: No, sorry, you can't throw up eleventh-hour barriers to vote and claim that they won't have a substantial impact.


I really think that in general, there should be requirement that new requirements for voting and other election law changes should not go into effect in the next election cycle. If they're such good changes, and not partisan in nature, then that shouldn't be a problem, right? Let the people vote on their representatives at least once before changing the rules about how they can vote.
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 11:27:25 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Maybe we should test it on Republicans first. You have to prove who you are to the satisfaction of a volunteer campaign worker selected by me or you can't vote.

I think that will work out nicely.
2012-10-02 11:26:38 AM
1 votes:

I_C_Weener: I don't know any poor, elderly or college students who don't have ID


Must not be any then.
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-02 11:25:26 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Maybe because you can't afford a car so you don't have a license, and the 13.50 for an ID plus bus fare and time to get to the DOT to get an ID card to vote is more than some people can spend if they are really broke, especially if the reason they are broke is because they are disabled or elderly.
2012-10-02 11:23:44 AM
1 votes:

Chabash: What about rich old white people? Are they still allowed?


They can still buy as many votes as they want.
2012-10-02 11:22:55 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: it's making sure that the elections are not prone to fraud.


So you advocate that the GOP be tested constantly for compliance. Good choice.
2012-10-02 11:22:45 AM
1 votes:
You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?
2012-10-02 11:22:08 AM
1 votes:

bmongar: The dead always favor Democrats because they no longer live in the fear it takes to maintain a Republican affiliation.


i583.photobucket.com
2012-10-02 11:21:45 AM
1 votes:
Good. Suck it, Pennsylvania GOP.
2012-10-02 11:21:43 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


It doesn't prohibit you from having one. They cost money to obtain. I've heard they cost around $30.00 in this part of Ohio.
2012-10-02 11:21:42 AM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?


Some people are really poor and cannot afford something that they see has no value in their life. Why get an ID if you don't need it?
2012-10-02 11:19:59 AM
1 votes:
Haven't been following this much so if someone would please clear this up, how is requiring a state issued ID to vote a barrier to poor folks voting?
2012-10-02 11:19:50 AM
1 votes:

qorkfiend: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Constitution forbids anyone from having to pay to vote. Make the IDs free and automatically issued for everyone and you might get somewhere.


Fine by me. If there were anything worth the taxpayers money to pay for, it's making sure that the elections are not prone to fraud.
2012-10-02 11:19:29 AM
1 votes:
illegal immigrants and dead people still allowed to vote in PA

Obama voters.
2012-10-02 11:19:21 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


Yes because it's Democrats AND ONLY Democrats that commit voter fraud.

Maybe you should try using Google before you say something this asinine.
2012-10-02 11:19:16 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: "Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

Good to know that they can commit fraud just long enough to let Obama win the state one last time.

Nothing wring with the law in general, apparently, just that it would hurt the Obama administration.


You should show us the proof that fraud helped Obama win it last time. or helped any politician in any race win.
2012-10-02 11:18:46 AM
1 votes:

bmongar: The dead always favor Democrats because they no longer live in the fear it takes to maintain a Republican affiliation.


lol
2012-10-02 11:18:39 AM
1 votes:

qorkfiend: Make the IDs free and automatically issued


But socialism!
2012-10-02 11:17:53 AM
1 votes:
done
2012-10-02 11:17:07 AM
1 votes:
Be ready for derpcon level 4 outrage on Fox
2012-10-02 11:16:52 AM
1 votes:

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.


*notsureifserious*
2012-10-02 11:16:28 AM
1 votes:

Chabash: What about rich old white people? Are they still allowed?


Motions have begun to see if they can vote twice.
2012-10-02 11:16:05 AM
1 votes:
Ah yes, went with the troll headline version on this one eh Mods? Color me shocked.
2012-10-02 11:15:35 AM
1 votes:
"Simpson ordered the state not to enforce the photo ID requirement in this year's presidential election but will allow it to go into full effect next year."

"The constitutionality of the law was not a question before Simpson."

You'll have a year or so to get an ID, get on it.
2012-10-02 11:15:16 AM
1 votes:
So they're going to use Chicago's Rules? I think I still vote in Chicago Heights. Haven't been there since 84.
2012-10-02 11:14:03 AM
1 votes:
Good news is good.
 
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