sdd2000: Leeds: There is no data on how many illegals are voting because no one has ever had any means of checking.

If only there were some way to know how many people were registered to vote in Pennsylvania. Then we could check that against the actual vote count to see if people are either voting without registration or voting multiple times.

It's a shame that the Commonwealth doesn't know how many people are registered though.

// Statistics. The most beautiful math that isn't taught in high school

OrygunFarker: Quick question for Fark's armchair Lawyers:

If a person is turned away from the polls due to lack of ID, does that stand as "taxation without representation", effectively nullifying a persons responsibility to pay taxes?

No, because that actually doesn't exist as a point of law. Check out a D.C. license-plate for more information.

// IANAL

OrygunFarker: Quick question for Fark's armchair Lawyers:

If a person is turned away from the polls due to lack of ID, does that stand as "taxation without representation", effectively nullifying a persons responsibility to pay taxes?

An interesting question to put to residents of Washington DC.

jshine: I'm just curious: for those who oppose voter ID laws, is there *any* combination of free IDs, extended hours, etc. -- any combination at all you can think of -- that would be sufficiently lax that its "not as bad" as just leaving the polls open for anyone who says they're legally allowed to vote? Or do you see any form of ID verification, no matter how unobtrusive, to be wrong as a matter of principle?

/doesn't have to be a practical suggestion, I'm just curious what nature and scope of the objections really are

For me, it's a matter of not being able to have my voice heard on the polling day, simply because I lost my wallet the day before. Or because I have no need for a driver's license because I'm 80 and don't drive. Are people forgetting that you need to show an ID when you register? Or if you register by mail then you will need to "prove" who you are at the polling place (or vote provisionally) the first time you vote? At least that was the way it worked for me in IL. At one point or the other, I've proven who I am. You want confirmation suggestions? How about my address - I mean, it permits me to pick up drugs under my name from the pharmacy, it should get me in to vote.

theknuckler_33: Saruman_W: theknuckler_33: Saruman_W: What's so good about this? Is it so wrong to verify someone is who they say they are and properly registered before you vote? Seriously, it takes like 2 freakin' seconds to whip that card out.

You get carded when you buy a gun, or buy booze and all sorts of other crap... what's so different about casting in a vote to decide who runs out entire country for 4 more years?

In Pa., when you go to the polls, you give your name, they look up your name in the voting register where a copy of your signature from when your registered is displayed. You sign the line right next to your signature and the poll worker verifies that your signature matches the one from when you registered.

What is wrong with this?

That doesn't prove anything. People can go in there and be whoever they want to be, forge a signature and cast off a vote. Poll workers won't know the difference.

Really? You don't think you could compare two signatures and tell if they are the same or not? Or maybe you are suggesting that there are tons of people out there will top notch signature forging capabilities that know the names of various people in different polling locations and what their signatures look like, as well as knowing that the REAL person won't have already showed up or might show up later and blow the roof off the whole thing. Are you friggin' kidding me?

This "poor people don't have IDs bawwwww" crap is just a crutch. IDs are NOT expensive at all. Those opposed to this law only want to keep the steady flow of illegal voters to ensure the return of their Lord and Savior Barack Obama after the election.

Ah, you're an idiot. Sorry, didn't realize.

This crap happens all the time. They manage to find ways around those little procedures regardless and no one seems to want to do anything about it because they know exactly who's vote they have in mind!

coeyagi: jshine: coeyagi: jshine: coeyagi: jshine: I'm just curious: for those who oppose voter ID laws, is there *any* combination of free IDs, extended hours, etc. -- any combination at all you can think of -- that would be sufficiently lax that its "not as bad" as just leaving the polls open for anyone who says they're legally allowed to vote? Or do you see any form of ID verification, no matter how unobtrusive, to be wrong as a matter of principle?

/doesn't have to be a practical suggestion, I'm just curious what nature and scope of the objections really are

The fact that there is no need for it. 0.00004% of votes between 2003 and 2007 were fraudulent. I have posted this fact at least 8 times in this thread.

But please, keep "concerning us" with your concerns.

I don't doubt your stat, but its tangential -- it's not an answer to the question that was asked.

Yes, it's the basis for asking the question in the first place. If you accept that fact, you need not ask the question.

So, to paraphrase (please correct me if I'm wrong), you believe that such laws are wrong as a matter of principle, regardless of the burden (or lack thereof) placed upon voters, and that even if the excess burden could be completely removed -- reduced to 0 -- that it would still be wrong to verify identity.

Would you say that's an accurate summary?

No, I never said it was unfair if the burden was completely removed (which it's not even close to being), I just think it's an unnecessary law if there is no problem except in the minds of dickhead gerrymandering GOPers. If you finally accept that fact as I have, you don't struggle with the implementation of the law, you struggle with its existence altogether.


Yes, I understand your point. I get it. ...but it's not really what I'm asking. If you admit that there's even *one* excess vote, then the problem isn't (strictly) nonexistent. I'm curious where you draw the line between correcting a problem (small though it may be) and placing an undue burden on voters (again, if this could be made arbitrarily small). What is the ratio of problem-to-voter-burden that you consider to be acceptable? How low would the burden have to be (absolutely zero, or how close to it?) to correct even a small percentage of excess invalid votes?

I'm sure you understand the question I'm asking, and its not difficult to answer, yet you keep talking around the point rather than simply stating an answer.

Disaster Transport: jshine: I'm just curious: for those who oppose voter ID laws, is there *any* combination of free IDs, extended hours, etc. -- any combination at all you can think of -- that would be sufficiently lax that its "not as bad" as just leaving the polls open for anyone who says they're legally allowed to vote? Or do you see any form of ID verification, no matter how unobtrusive, to be wrong as a matter of principle?

/doesn't have to be a practical suggestion, I'm just curious what nature and scope of the objections really are

For me, it's a matter of not being able to have my voice heard on the polling day, simply because I lost my wallet the day before. Or because I have no need for a driver's license because I'm 80 and don't drive. Are people forgetting that you need to show an ID when you register? Or if you register by mail then you will need to "prove" who you are at the polling place (or vote provisionally) the first time you vote? At least that was the way it worked for me in IL. At one point or the other, I've proven who I am. You want confirmation suggestions? How about my address - I mean, it permits me to pick up drugs under my name from the pharmacy, it should get me in to vote.

Makes sense.

Leeds: You are a pathetically ignorant little shiate. If I was the president I'd ban you from voting out of concern that you lack the intelligence to cast a farking ballot, you malodorous perverted little twit.

1) You're the ignoramous here who thinks everyone has routine internet access.

2) The bolded section right here is what's really behind this: conservatives don't believe in universal suffrage. They think certain classes of people aren't good enough to vote. It angers them that members of certain groups, sometimes defined by immutable characteristics, are allowed to vote at all.

X-boxershorts: OrygunFarker: Quick question for Fark's armchair Lawyers:

If a person is turned away from the polls due to lack of ID, does that stand as "taxation without representation", effectively nullifying a persons responsibility to pay taxes?

You won't be turned away, you'll be given a provisional ballot to cast your vote.

Provisional means it's counted, provided you meet the states requirements. In 6 days.

Provisional ballots only get two days confirmation here in IL, it seems. http://www.chicagoelections.com/page.php?id=68

HeartBurnKid: It costs money to get an ID, and it takes time smack in the middle of your workday to go to the DMV, time you aren't able to take off without losing any more money.

The IDs are F-R-E-E. And where is it that you are working, and need time off to get an ID, that you did not have to provide ID in order to work there in the first place?

Quick Fixer: sdd2000: Leeds: There is no data on how many illegals are voting because no one has ever had any means of checking.

If only there were some way to know how many people were registered to vote in Pennsylvania. Then we could check that against the actual vote count to see if people are either voting without registration or voting multiple times.

It's a shame that the Commonwealth doesn't know how many people are registered though.

// Statistics. The most beautiful math that isn't taught in high school

So you believe that 100% of the people who are registered to vote actually do so??? Really?

Because the number of registered people is knowable. And the total number of votes is knowable. What is not knowable is how many registrations are incorrect or how many people vote as someone else.

Try making a venn diagram if you so choose. You will quickly see the error in your assumptions.

I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.

The issue becomes timing and equal access. Chiming in to what another Farker said, the majority (i.e. roughly 67% versus 33%) of PA is considered RURAL. As a result, getting to a DMZ during the available hours when you're a full-time worker or have limited access to transportation becomes an obstacle. There are counties where a DMV doesn't exist - especially with Saturday or evening hours). Not mention that unlike FL, you can't make an appointment for your photo ID (I used to love that about FL). It's one thing to be able to vote in your are, it's another to have to travel nearly an hour to go get your ID - and then in some cases, only to be told that the verification information you've brought isn't enough and you have to go get more and make ANOTHER visit.

I think in the more urban areas, folks have done a great job to get the word out about the Free ID programs - Rich Fitzgerald (Allegheny County Executive) sponsored one in fact - just an example [not meant to endorse him or not]. the Voter Registration folks need to figure out a way to establish a mobile ID program to ensure that ID isn't a barrier to anyone getting ID to vote.

I'm happy to get on board with this plan and have encouraged all my friends and family to get the word out to folks if they don't have ID. I don't want to make this into a partisan issue, I just want to ensure that EVERYONE in PA has equal access to get their ID.

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?

Win. Game over.

But seriously, how do / would you prevent illegal immigrants from voting? There should be some sort of "card" that you get, so that you can prove who you are...oh well, one day.

God Bless The United States of Derp

Mercutio74: Mercutio74: http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=ind e x&lang=e

Let me try that again and I'll be less stupid this time...

HERE

It must not be effective because it still allows student ID's and we all know how unreliable student ID's are.

/sarcasm

NateGrey: Marine1: Dude, if you don't have an ID, you're off the farking grid these days. I mean, no ID? None? Whatsoever?

Good point, can you and your Republican buddies drive the people who dont have an ID to the ID place and pay for it so they can vote?

You're kidding? They can get a ride to vote, but they cant get a state id...

Bendal: Lots of people who are "poor" work at jobs that don't give them time off, or if they don't work, may not have a vehicle, or have to rely on public transportation that doesn't go past whereever the ID office is located and is open.

Maybe these "poor" could just use an absentee ballot.

Alassra: I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.

The issue becomes timing and equal access. Chiming in to what another Farker said, the majority (i.e. roughly 67% versus 33%) of PA is considered RURAL. As a result, getting to a DMZ during the available hours when you're a full-time worker or have limited access to transportation becomes an obstacle. There are counties where a DMV doesn't exist - especially with Saturday or evening hours). Not mention that unlike FL, you can't make an appointment for your photo ID (I used to love that about FL). It's one thing to be able to vote in your are, it's another to have to travel nearly an hour to go get your ID - and then in some cases, only to be told that the verification information you've brought isn't enough and you have to go get more and make ANOTHER visit.

I think in the more urban areas, folks have done a great job to get the word out about the Free ID programs - Rich Fitzgerald (Allegheny County Executive) sponsored one in fact - just an example [not meant to endorse him or not]. the Voter Registration folks need to figure out a way to establish a mobile ID program to ensure that ID isn't a barrier to anyone getting ID to vote.

I'm happy to get on board with this plan and have encouraged all my friends and family to get the word out to folks if they don't have ID. I don't want to make this into a partisan issue, I just want to ensure that EVERYONE in PA has equal access to get their ID.

That and when you have states that don't allow student ID's as a valid form of identification WHILE allowing NRA ID's to be a valid form of identification, the whole GOP concern about "protecting the integrity of our elections" falls on some pretty deaf ears with me.

bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?

It doesn't. Except for the $5 or $10 the local DMV may charge. Horrors! Some pooooor person might have to give up a couple of packs of smokes to get one. Or just - for just one example - go to any of three dozen or so churches and other aid groups in my small area of Orange County who HAVE PROGRAMS TO HELP HOMELESS PEOPLE GET OFFICIAL STATE-ISSUED IDENTIFICATION SO AS TO OBTAIN BENEFITS (what one of my homeless friends actually did last week.)

But it is so much easier and satisfying to hysterically scream "Ebil-Republikkkans hate poooor peeeeoooppllllleeee!" It is also a super-duper-convenient strawman horse for liberals to flog to distract attention away from all the (deceased / non-citizen) people voting for their candidates.

Marine1: You know... let's take a look at all you need an ID for:

Driving
Purchasing a firearm
Carrying a firearm
Cashing a check
Opening a bank account
Using a debit or credit card
Opening a line of credit
Boarding a commercial flight
Going to college (you may or may not need one for registration, but they will make you get one from them when you're on campus)
Getting a passport
Buying tobacco
Buying alcohol
Buying medical marijuana (in states that allow it)
Going over the border into Canada or Mexico
Transferring large amounts of cash (thank the PATRIOT Act for that)
Apply for a job at a government institution (they're going to want to make sure you're here legally)
Being shown an apartment you're considering a lease on

With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID? Forget whether or not these people could vote if that law had been passed... how much of a disadvantage are these folks at in their every day lives without one? How about we focus on that?

Let's play a game. It's called "Which of these things are a privilege and which of these things are a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution." i will leave it as an exercise for the reader as to what category voting falls into.

FlashHarry: Marine1: With all of that in mind... just who the fark is going around without an ID?

old people and poor people who are still americans with a constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.

Isn't knowing that the point of the ID???

Nutsac_Jim: HeartBurnKid: It costs money to get an ID, and it takes time smack in the middle of your workday to go to the DMV, time you aren't able to take off without losing any more money.

The IDs are F-R-E-E. And where is it that you are working, and need time off to get an ID, that you did not have to provide ID in order to work there in the first place?

A warehouse, a restaurant, on a construction crew, whatever. Photo ID isn't required to get a job.

And the IDs are free, except only as a specific voter specific ID. And then you have to know about it and request it specifically. And it's only available for one hour once a week in specific DMV locations far from the areas where people without IDs live. And then, only if you have a birth certificate, which costs money and takes more time and hassle to get.

Seriously, there are obstructions other than cost that courts take very seriously. Harping on the fee alone, when it's already been established that there are plenty of other obstructions, isn't going to get you anywhere in this argument.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: It is also a super-duper-convenient strawman horse for liberals to flog to distract attention away from all the (deceased / non-citizen) people voting for their candidates.

You're criticizing people of using a strawman WHILE using a strawman yourself?

hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

thelordofcheese: Poor people can't afford cars. Most people getting picture ID cards do it to be able to drive. If you don't have a car then why get picture ID?

What did they do with all those millions of "Cash for Clunkers" cars? All I've ever read was that they crushed them. Isn't that like taking a package of livers back to the supermarket, because they'll upgrade you to steak at taxpayer expense, but instead of feeding the poor, the supermarket decides to compost the livers instead?

/I know.... off topic.

Epoch_Zero: Much to the chagrin of the Republicans, Democracy voter fraud still somewhat exists in PA.

Maybe next year, cons.

ftfy

Dusk-You-n-Me: Mrtraveler01: You're criticizing people of using a strawman WHILE using a strawman yourself?

Groundbreaking work being done here.

This is like dividing by zero. We're watching the whole universe unravel in front of our eyes.

/either that or he's an idiot

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: from all the (deceased / non-citizen) people voting

Can you show any proof of this happening? Any at all? Because Pennsylvania sure as hell looked for some, but they had to admit in court that there was absolutely no evidence of this actually happening.

In person voter fraud simply does not happen. It's a high risk crime with an incredibly low reward.

pennysdeuce: bhcompy: Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I never understood this. Why does being poor prohibit you from having a state issued ID?

Win. Game over.

But seriously, how do / would you prevent illegal immigrants from voting? There should be some sort of "card" that you get, so that you can prove who you are...oh well, one day.

God Bless The United States of Derp

How would an illegal immigrant register? At some point you should prove who you are. Do it with an ID when you register in person, like I did. Do it through the mail and be prepared to show who you are at the polls (or heck, any time before that). As long as you're confirmed as some point, why does it have to be the exact minute you vote?

/it's about having a State Issued Photo ID on you at that particular moment I have a real issue with.

coeyagi: cchris_39: As much as I hate the "both sides are intellectually inconsistent idiots", it really does apply here.

Making me prove my identity violates my constitutional rights!

Liberal - you're talking about voter ID.
Conservative - you're talking about buying guns.

Same standard has to apply to both.

No, there can be reasonable regulations applied to either in case of need. For instance:

30K people killed due to firearms. Wouldn't it be reasonable to have some ID regulations there to attempt to diminish the deaths (it may not work for various complicated reasons, but it's a reasonable thing to implement based on need.)

0.00004% of votes from 2003-2007 were fraudulent, much less than the closest margin of victory. Where is the need for regulation?

When it changes history.

see Kennedy/Nixon, Bush/Gore.

Alassra: I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.


Statistically speaking voter fraud is, at best, a rounding error. So, no, I don't really care about voter ID.
The simple fact that this is a national discussion as opposed to something else, say, insuring no child goes to bed hungry at night speaks volumes about our priorities as a nation.

Fabric_Man: Judge decides illegal immigrants and dead people the poor still allowed to vote in PA

I know it's sarcasm, but still

I'm going to go vote for in place of you in Nov.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

I can't remember the last time I've been asked to show ID for any of those things. And the showing ID in everyday life thing as been shown to be hilariously false many times in this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Election_Solutions

Still a bigger threat to election fraud than anyone who can't show an ID.

MSFT: Alassra: I think that most people, regardless of party, agree that (in theory) Voter ID is a good thing.


Statistically speaking voter fraud is, at best, a rounding error. So, no, I don't really care about voter ID.
The simple fact that this is a national discussion as opposed to something else, say, insuring no child goes to bed hungry at night speaks volumes about our priorities as a nation.

Did you mean "hungry" or did you mean "starving?"

Because one is a punishment for not eating your broccoli and the other is something that food stamps wiped out.

cptjeff: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

I can't remember the last time I've been asked to show ID for any of those things. And the showing ID in everyday life thing as been shown to be hilariously false many times in this thread.

THIS. I mean seriously if I didn't go to a bar I would never take my ID out of my wallet. If you have had the same job for more than 5 years and don't drive or travel by air, why the heck would you go renew your license? My mom went nearly 20 years without a valid ID because she simply didn't do anything that required her to have one!

Disaster Transport: cptjeff: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

I can't remember the last time I've been asked to show ID for any of those things. And the showing ID in everyday life thing as been shown to be hilariously false many times in this thread.

THIS. I mean seriously if I didn't go to a bar I would never take my ID out of my wallet. If you have had the same job for more than 5 years and don't drive or travel by air, why the heck would you go renew your license? My mom went nearly 20 years without a valid ID because she simply didn't do anything that required her to have one!

Don't drive???

Other that people who live in New York city, everyone drives. Even 99.9% of people with suspended licenses drive.

Leeds:
Don't drive???

Other that people who live in New York city, everyone drives. Even 99.9% of people with suspended licenses drive.

Uh, no... Plenty of older people and city dwellers do not drive. I know many of them. You are just entirely wrong here.

Leeds: Disaster Transport: cptjeff: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

I can't remember the last time I've been asked to show ID for any of those things. And the showing ID in everyday life thing as been shown to be hilariously false many times in this thread.

THIS. I mean seriously if I didn't go to a bar I would never take my ID out of my wallet. If you have had the same job for more than 5 years and don't drive or travel by air, why the heck would you go renew your license? My mom went nearly 20 years without a valid ID because she simply didn't do anything that required her to have one!

Don't drive???

Other that people who live in New York city, everyone drives. Even 99.9% of people with suspended licenses drive.

Actually, my mom has a medical condition that prevented her from even getting a drivers license, so yes, she didn't drive. My father drove.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: hetheeme: Gotta love the legalization of voter fraud.

God forbid anyone actually have to prove who they are in order to vote.

Actually, I deeply resent the fact that I have to show ID virtually every time I cash a check, use my debit card, or apply for a job. ALL THAT SHOULD BE TOTALLY ANONYMOUS! Voting? Meh. Actually fairly unimportant.

Hey, look at the bright side. You and your retarded buddy's will have 4 more years of those awesome birther email forwards.