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(Daily Mail)   Before and after pics show Detroit going from bad to worse   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 182
    More: Sad, Detroit, sustainable business, green shoots, camden, physical educations, farmland, gary  
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23364 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 8:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



182 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-10-02 08:07:53 AM  
The strip club looks the best out of all of them.
 
2012-10-02 08:12:38 AM  
I would like to have seen how they turned the bank into an adult cinema.
 
2012-10-02 08:12:41 AM  
Dr. Klahn seen in background
 
2012-10-02 08:22:19 AM  

loveblondieo: The strip club looks the best out of all of them.


Deja Vu doesnt serve booze, but they can show bush, IIRC.
 
2012-10-02 08:22:22 AM  
i49.tinypic.com

"Washed away from history: The former site of Willie's Garage now lies empty"

Am I supposed to feel outraged that an eyesore was torn down?
 
2012-10-02 08:22:33 AM  
This again....

Detroit=shiat hole, we get it already....
 
2012-10-02 08:22:53 AM  
All of those pictures makes me think that Detroit would make great reference pics for a STALKER/RAGE clone.
 
2012-10-02 08:23:37 AM  
sperm bank...
 
2012-10-02 08:24:10 AM  
I thought the urban farms were kinda neat. Would love to buy a few plots and run a sustainable tilapia farm/acquaculture farm.

1$ plots, yes please!
 
2012-10-02 08:24:52 AM  
Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.
 
2012-10-02 08:24:53 AM  
Started reading expecting a "bad to worse" article with pictures showing "bad" and then "worse." The first pair did it, the remainder was just same old abandoned buildings stuff that crops up so frequently...
 
2012-10-02 08:25:59 AM  
bustling shopfronts lie empty but brightened up with graffiti
 
2012-10-02 08:26:55 AM  

Iron Felix: Started reading expecting a "bad to worse" article with pictures showing "bad" and then "worse." The first pair did it, the remainder was just same old abandoned buildings stuff that crops up so frequently...


This.

And I'm sure you could find some of those pictures in any large American city. Give us something new if you're going with this subject matter again.
 
2012-10-02 08:32:53 AM  
OMG, an empty conference room! Happens every afternoon at 5 pm, but OMG!
 
2012-10-02 08:33:19 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk

OH MY...THE DESOLATION...

/Looks like everyone simply went to lunch
 
2012-10-02 08:33:48 AM  
Biatches, leave.
 
2012-10-02 08:33:56 AM  
I thought this was an ad for Fallout 4
 
2012-10-02 08:34:24 AM  
Is the conference room in the last picture abandoned? There is a lot of money sitting on that table; there is a Polycom conference phone and what looks like a Video Teleconferencing microphone...
 
2012-10-02 08:34:41 AM  
Damn! Where's that laboratory? I would totally raidvisit that place.
 
2012-10-02 08:34:47 AM  
Are we blaming unions or african americans for the demise of Detroit today?
 
2012-10-02 08:35:38 AM  
Apparently the EPA was worth this.....
 
2012-10-02 08:38:06 AM  
That conference room counts as abandoned in the same way I abandon my living room when I have to go take a leak.
 
2012-10-02 08:39:46 AM  

minoridiot: Are we blaming unions or african americans for the demise of Detroit today?


i47.tinypic.com
 
2012-10-02 08:40:48 AM  
LOL

Bad to worse? Alot of those actually look better now than it did before. I mean look at that one neighborhood, all the black people moved out! Also: Look at that lab! How in the world is that not used for meth already? It's wide open!

So yeah, I'm gonna move to Detroit since all those mofo's are gone, secure me some lab equipment in those abandoned warehouses and start Breaking Bad.
 
2012-10-02 08:40:56 AM  
I blame bad race relations and unions. Once the unions took over, the auto industry began its decline. Once the race riots hit, the mass exodus from Detroit really began.

We should think really hard about adopting unions. Like Angela Merkel, I also think multiculturalism has failed. It's time to get some fresh thinking in here instead of these old tired ideas.
 
2012-10-02 08:41:45 AM  
Detroit Mayor
before:

i47.tinypic.com


after:

s9.postimage.org
 
2012-10-02 08:41:59 AM  
I'm mostly sad about the death of Motown. That music could definitely brighten your day.
 
2012-10-02 08:42:06 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.
 
2012-10-02 08:44:16 AM  
I'm surprised the conference room phones are still there. Those things aren't cheap.
 
2012-10-02 08:44:26 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i49.tinypic.com image 850x543]

"Washed away from history: The former site of Willie's Garage now lies empty"

Am I supposed to feel outraged that an eyesore was torn down?


I think you're supposed to be sad that it went from a place where people earned a living to a parking lot.
 
2012-10-02 08:45:37 AM  
They left out the best one:

reason.com
 
2012-10-02 08:46:33 AM  

The Muthaship: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i49.tinypic.com image 850x543]

"Washed away from history: The former site of Willie's Garage now lies empty"

Am I supposed to feel outraged that an eyesore was torn down?

I think you're supposed to be sad that it went from a place where people earned a living to a parking lot.


People is plural. Just Willie did, and obviously not a very good one since its gone now.
 
2012-10-02 08:46:42 AM  

stuhayes2010: Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey.


I don't remember whether or not it was Detroit (I think it was), but one of the previous photo series like this showed an abandoned library.  With all of its books.  And not a little small town library either, this one was a large city library.
 
2012-10-02 08:46:56 AM  

Joce678: Damn! Where's that laboratory? I would totally raidvisit that place.


===============

^This^

It always shocks me to see how little ambition the locals have. Example: GM closed a number of factories in Michigan after their recent bankruptcy. They walked away from functioning 5 axis machine centers, stamping machines, welding equipment, etc. They even left behind functioning forklifts and flat bed trucks. If I lived near one of these places, I would have used the forklift to place some of that machinery on a flat bed and haul it to my garage. What do the locals do? They break into the place and pull out the copper wires/tubing and leave or trash the rest. WTF?
 
2012-10-02 08:47:02 AM  

Chiselphane: That conference room counts as abandoned in the same way I abandon my living room when I have to go take a leak.


If the electricity is in, it's not abandoned.
 
2012-10-02 08:48:46 AM  
Wow, it even looks like they downgraded the traffic light poles from metal to wood, that's bad. Or scrappers stole the original metal poles, in that case it's funny.
 
2012-10-02 08:48:49 AM  

Pangit: People is plural. Just Willie did, and obviously not a very good one since its gone now.


I don't know how many people worked there with Willie, if any. But, if there's no work, there's no trucking and no truck engines to steam clean.

/and there damn sure ain't no boats
 
2012-10-02 08:49:31 AM  

EatHam: With all of its books.

 
Found it:   here it is
 
mhd
2012-10-02 08:49:51 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-02 08:51:41 AM  

sodomizer: Once the unions took over.....


Detroit began its collapse after the Flint sit down strike of 1936?
 
2012-10-02 08:53:32 AM  

minoridiot: Are we blaming unions or african americans for the demise of Detroit today?


According to the comments FTA we are blaming it on Obama. And socialists.
 
2012-10-02 08:54:10 AM  

Pangit: People is plural. Just Willie did, and obviously not a very good one since its gone now.


If you look closely, it says "& Sons", so people is correct.

Neener, neener.
 
2012-10-02 08:54:20 AM  
I bet this one confused the Brits:

i1240.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-02 08:55:12 AM  
After seeing the desolate abandoned conference room I have to wonder if the rest of Detroit is maybe just on a long lunch break.
 
2012-10-02 08:55:38 AM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]


============

Fish and chips shop?
 
2012-10-02 08:55:41 AM  

stuhayes2010: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x663]

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.


Not if I can get there first. Those Pyrex desiccators can go for $500 new, not to mention all the other glassware.
 
2012-10-02 08:58:24 AM  
The question is if anyone has a plan to fix it or do we just sweep the whole thing under a rug until another election season has passed.
 
2012-10-02 08:58:24 AM  

teknophile4385: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x653]

OH MY...THE DESOLATION...

/Looks like everyone simply went to lunch


It wouldn't surprise me if that was the Daily Fail's own conference room with the word 'Detroit' Photoshopped in the middle. They needed one more photo but couldn't be arsed to find one.

/Knows people who used to work for 'The Fail'
 
2012-10-02 08:59:16 AM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]


Better equipped then normal?
 
2012-10-02 08:59:51 AM  

JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.


Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.
 
2012-10-02 09:00:26 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]

Better equipped than normal?


No, just a very tired old joke.
 
2012-10-02 09:01:17 AM  
Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Who wouldn't today like to live in a city, where there are parks everywhere?
I know there aren't a lot of jobs in detroit right now, but you gotta try to do SOMETHING to make it better.
And the parks don't have to be more than grass, a few bushes and the odd tree.

Expropriation costs certainly can't get any lower, can they?

There should be ample room to ensure space for traffic. Just make green corridors, as you work your way through abandoned housings - if you can connect the lots, just start out making a path for cyclists.

Should Destroit get back on it's feet, then you have a lot of city-owned plots, that can be sold off or used to make improvements.
 
2012-10-02 09:02:14 AM  

Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.


Because that costs money, too.
 
2012-10-02 09:03:17 AM  

Subdue their bellies: loveblondieo: The strip club looks the best out of all of them.

Deja Vu doesnt serve booze, but they can show bush, IIRC.


Thankfully Windsor is within swimming distance.
 
2012-10-02 09:05:21 AM  
Turn it into another sanctuary city, i hear that makes cities awsome
 
2012-10-02 09:05:23 AM  

Tyrosine: stuhayes2010: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x663]

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.

Not if I can get there first. Those Pyrex desiccators can go for $500 new, not to mention all the other glassware.


I think that pic was posed to make it look like it was abandoned and vandals had yanked all the drawers open, looking for anything of value. If that was the case, they would have broken all that stuff too. Probably not being used right now, and locked up tight, but the photographer decided it didn't look "abandoned" enough, and yanked all the drawers open and threw some stuff on the floor for dramatic effect.
 
2012-10-02 09:06:23 AM  
Ah, Destroyt. Looking each new day a little more like Pripyat
 
2012-10-02 09:07:55 AM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]


I bet you typed that with a stick because your fingers were too fat.

Let's all get stereotypical!
 
2012-10-02 09:09:09 AM  

The Muthaship: Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Because that costs money, too.


If Detroit's anything like Pittsburgh, it costs about $20,000/single family structure to tear down a building correctly. A shiatty demo job can be done for $10K if you collapse the building into the foundation, but you'll end up with bigger problems down the road (like rats and leaking water/sewer lines).
 
2012-10-02 09:10:47 AM  

oldfarthenry: I bet you typed that with a stick because your fingers were too fat.

Let's all get stereotypical!


I had to get help from an Asian, because I'm too dumb!

Keeping it going!
 
2012-10-02 09:11:07 AM  

archichris: JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.

Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.


No. It wasn't. It was the auto industry itself. They haven't been able to effectively compete with the Japanese for over three decades now. They've even off-shored a lot of manufacturing and assembly and they still cannot compete. The auto industry started building its own casket back in the 1970s, when they decided that crappy, gas guzzling cars that would fall apart in just a few years was acceptable.
 
2012-10-02 09:14:50 AM  

TravelingFreakshow: Subdue their bellies: loveblondieo: The strip club looks the best out of all of them.

Deja Vu doesnt serve booze, but they can show bush, IIRC.

Thankfully Windsor is within swimming distance.


Windsor is a shiathole, not quite the level of Detroit shiathole but a shiathole nonetheless. I guess if you're just coming here for strippers though you're good.

/moved away from there
 
2012-10-02 09:15:06 AM  

stuhayes2010: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x663]

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.


my lab could use more equipment... some of that stuff looks pretty salvageable.

/my legit lab
//no seriously
 
2012-10-02 09:15:14 AM  

The Muthaship: oldfarthenry: I bet you typed that with a stick because your fingers were too fat.

Let's all get stereotypical!

I had to get help from an Asian, because I'm too dumb!

Keeping it going!


The Asian guy crashed his car on the way here - for no other reason than his incompetent driving skills!

Next?
 
2012-10-02 09:16:25 AM  

EatHam: Found it: here it is


Wow

The pictures of the Michigan Theater being used as a parking garage are really odd.
 
2012-10-02 09:19:14 AM  

JackieRabbit: archichris: JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.

Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.

No. It wasn't. It was the auto industry itself. They haven't been able to effectively compete with the Japanese for over three decades now. They've even off-shored a lot of manufacturing and assembly and they still cannot compete. The auto industry started building its own casket back in the 1970s, when they decided that crappy, gas guzzling cars that would fall apart in just a few years was acceptable.


===================

^This^

The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

Fark you Fux News, Mush Limpblow idiots.
 
2012-10-02 09:20:00 AM  
If there are no jobs, industry, tourism or anything of value in Detroit, then WHY do they have NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL teams there? Why haven't the teams moved yet? That shiat doesn't come cheap ...

jes sayin
 
2012-10-02 09:20:57 AM  

oldfarthenry: The Asian guy crashed his car on the way here - for no other reason than his incompetent driving skills!

Next?


It wasn't the Asian guy's fault. His just couldn't see the Cholo doing 40mph in the fast lane.
 
2012-10-02 09:21:52 AM  

qsblues: If there are no jobs, industry, tourism or anything of value in Detroit, then WHY do they have NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL teams there? Why haven't the teams moved yet? That shiat doesn't come cheap ...

jes sayin


Suburbs.
 
2012-10-02 09:22:25 AM  
Everyone making excuses for the obvious.

Unions gained enough power by the 1960s to have dominated the auto industry. At that point, the first stages of anti-competitive decline set in. A decade later, the industry was in freefall.

As a thriving metroplex, Detroit had other industries as well. These were doing OK and decline was arrested until the riots.

At that point, people didn't wait for the third strike -- they sold their homes for pennies on the dollar and headed elsewhere.

It's funny how we repeat these mistakes throughout history. I wonder what parts of California will look like Detroit in a decade or so.
 
2012-10-02 09:23:46 AM  

The Muthaship: oldfarthenry: The Asian guy crashed his car on the way here - for no other reason than his incompetent driving skills!

Next?

It wasn't the Asian guy's fault. His just couldn't see the Cholo doing 40mph in the fast lane.


==============

If God had wanted Asians to drive cars, he would have given them eyes that open.

/My Asian friends love that joke
 
2012-10-02 09:27:11 AM  

minoridiot: Are we blaming unions or african americans for the demise of Detroit today?


Greed and arrogance, same as always.
 
2012-10-02 09:27:35 AM  

Fissile: The Muthaship: oldfarthenry: The Asian guy crashed his car on the way here - for no other reason than his incompetent driving skills!

Next?

It wasn't the Asian guy's fault. His just couldn't see the Cholo doing 40mph in the fast lane.

==============

If God had wanted Asians to drive cars, he would have given them eyes that open.

/My Asian friends love that joke


I lol'd
 
2012-10-02 09:30:21 AM  

ManRay: The pictures of the Michigan Theater being used as a parking garage are really odd.


Detroit smiles at your notion of odd.
 
2012-10-02 09:38:47 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: The Muthaship: Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Because that costs money, too.

If Detroit's anything like Pittsburgh, it costs about $20,000/single family structure to tear down a building correctly. A shiatty demo job can be done for $10K if you collapse the building into the foundation, but you'll end up with bigger problems down the road (like rats and leaking water/sewer lines).


And depending on what is standing there now there may be environmental hazards. There is no incentive to spend a lot of money for a park that will have questionable use - who will frequent a park in downtown Detroit?
 
2012-10-02 09:40:04 AM  

Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Who wouldn't today like to live in a city, where there are parks everywhere?
I know there aren't a lot of jobs in detroit right now, but you gotta try to do SOMETHING to make it better.
And the parks don't have to be more than grass, a few bushes and the odd tree.

Expropriation costs certainly can't get any lower, can they?

There should be ample room to ensure space for traffic. Just make green corridors, as you work your way through abandoned housings - if you can connect the lots, just start out making a path for cyclists.

Should Destroit get back on it's feet, then you have a lot of city-owned plots, that can be sold off or used to make improvements.


There is some movement to do this. (And it's a pretty fun event.)
Link
But as one poster already mentioned, demolition isn't free.
 
2012-10-02 09:41:33 AM  
i47.tinypic.com

"I don't know nothing about no God Damned Krugerrands".
 
2012-10-02 09:44:39 AM  
Hey, layoff Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times.
 
2012-10-02 09:45:42 AM  

eraser8: Hey, layoff Detroit.


It was the city motto
 
2012-10-02 09:46:05 AM  

eraser8: Hey, layoff lay off Detroit. Them people is living in 'Mad Max' times.


Sorry. I should have known a cut and paste job would require editing.
 
2012-10-02 09:46:24 AM  
When I want to see a before/after gallery, I want to see photos of the same areas taken from the same perspective. Is there a photographer alive who gets this concept? Hold the previous picture up and stand in the same farking spot. It's not difficult. Not even National Geographic seems capable of this. It's amazing. Stand where the previous photo was taken and snap the god damned picture.
 
2012-10-02 09:48:01 AM  

syberpud: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: The Muthaship: Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Because that costs money, too.

If Detroit's anything like Pittsburgh, it costs about $20,000/single family structure to tear down a building correctly. A shiatty demo job can be done for $10K if you collapse the building into the foundation, but you'll end up with bigger problems down the road (like rats and leaking water/sewer lines).

And depending on what is standing there now there may be environmental hazards. There is no incentive to spend a lot of money for a park that will have questionable use - who will frequent a park in downtown Detroit?


Yep. Didn't get into PCBs, asbestos, light ballasts, stored chemicals, or anything else that hampers demolition.
 
2012-10-02 09:49:01 AM  
I know everyone likes to dog on poor Detroit, but what happened there is going to happen everywhere. They are just the canary in the coal mine - the first to go due to a very high dependence on the automotive sector.

But thanks to companies like Bain (who make the greatest profits on offshoring) and the willingness of the American consumer to prefer to save a few pennies on imports - we can all expect a similar future. Detroit failed because they lost their wealth creating jobs and the people left. The same thing is happening nationwide - that is why we won't ever break 8% unemployment again. If it wasn't for massive borrowing to stimulate the economy, we would be well over 10% unemployment and more and more cities would look like Detroit. That trend would continue to expand as the remaining wealth is quickly used to buy more and more imports since domestic production is neglected. Eventually the dollar starts devaluing, making suburbia impossible to live in with $15 gasoline. Then things get all Katrina. But keep buying that Chinese junk you don't need (and will have to replace next year when it breaks).
 
2012-10-02 09:49:23 AM  
Maybe there's a heap o' skulls in the way?

Turning suburbs into farmland is the way forward, people.
 
2012-10-02 09:51:34 AM  

neenerist: sodomizer: Once the unions took over.....

Detroit began its collapse after the Flint sit down strike of 1936?


One from the files. Washington Blvd., downtown Detroit, 1939.
You could doublepark if the driver stayed with the car. Few drove alone then.
And that car on the right is a Packard. That says a lot right there - no more Packards.
www.autolife.umd.umich.edu
 
2012-10-02 09:54:24 AM  

JackieRabbit: archichris: JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.

Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.

No. It wasn't. It was the auto industry itself. They haven't been able to effectively compete with the Japanese for over three decades now. They've even off-shored a lot of manufacturing and assembly and they still cannot compete. The auto industry started building its own casket back in the 1970s, when they decided that crappy, gas guzzling cars that would fall apart in just a few years was acceptable.


Moron. American cars are extremely well built. All cars sucked in the 70s. Unions are killing the American auto industry, nothing more. Hopey McGM screwed things up even worse by "saving" GM.
 
2012-10-02 09:55:31 AM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]


Came here to say this....

i1247.photobucket.com

But I left laughing my ballz off!

/+1
 
2012-10-02 09:57:06 AM  
i.dailymail.co.uk

Pretty awesome pic imho
 
2012-10-02 09:59:13 AM  

stuhayes2010: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x663]

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.


No one even took the balance? That seems odd, because in my day, the scales were the first things people stole from labs, even if it was a beat to shiat Dial-a-Gram.
 
2012-10-02 09:59:53 AM  
The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes. Germany also has found a better solution than allowing unions to sabotage the car companies, thus making management a series of layers designed to work around that problem, thus paralyzing the (larger) American car companies from making decisions.

I don't agree that it was pensions. I think it's unions. Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, union strikes forced the auto makers to adopt other practices to stay solvent, union politics requires layers of middle management, and union attitudes make for inefficient, resentful workers. This in turn makes the company adapt.

When you have unions mucking up labor, most people are going to either (a) not work in the auto industry or (b) take on a lackadaisical outlook toward quality and other factors. The main job is to not have a strike shut down the plants.
 
jlt
2012-10-02 10:01:46 AM  

neenerist: ManRay: The pictures of the Michigan Theater being used as a parking garage are really odd.

Detroit smiles at your notion of odd.


In all fairness, the body wasn't going anywhere. And it was nicely preserved.
 
2012-10-02 10:08:58 AM  

sodomizer: The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes. Germany also has found a better solution than allowing unions to sabotage the car companies, thus making management a series of layers designed to work around that problem, thus paralyzing the (larger) American car companies from making decisions.

I don't agree that it was pensions. I think it's unions. Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, union strikes forced the auto makers to adopt other practices to stay solvent, union politics requires layers of middle management, and union attitudes make for inefficient, resentful workers. This in turn makes the company adapt.

When you have unions mucking up labor, most people are going to either (a) not work in the auto industry or (b) take on a lackadaisical outlook toward quality and other factors. The main job is to not have a strike shut down the plants.


BS

If Unions are that troublesome it should be easy to distinguish their presence.

Here is a good example. AT&T Mobile and Verizon Wireless. Without searching online, guess which one is a union shop? Seriously, one mobile provider is totally union (IBEW) and the other is completely union-free.
 
2012-10-02 10:10:14 AM  
I've been to Detroit several times in the past few months. Many areas of downtown feel like a ghost town and are quite eerie, however there are people there who are taking advantage of the decline in some interesting ways. The last time i was there we came upon a rock concert in a large burned out apartment building; stages built from old wood scraps, no id checks, no entry fee, no guards and free beer. It was pretty damn cool. The advantage now is that no one cares what you do there so you have tremendous freedom. There was a cop across the street from said concert smoking a cigarette while the kids inside partied, he did not give a crap. In any other city there would be guards, wristbands and a $20 entrance fee. The old Detroit is dead but there is a new one taking form.
 
2012-10-02 10:21:03 AM  

sodomizer: Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow...


When all you have is a hammer. Germany has unions. UAW workers made roughly the same inflation-adjusted wage I did as a summer student in the 1970's until the recent dual tier agreement halved it for new hires. Data is a biatch.
 
2012-10-02 10:22:33 AM  

Thunderpipes: All cars sucked in the 70s


Compared to today? Yes. Back then? No, they didn't. Toyotas, Datsuns, and Hondas were much more reliable and were cheaper to drive, too. I drove a hand-me-down '75 Datsun B-210 through HS and most of college, and I wasn't all that kind to it...by the time it finally got wrecked, it was 12 years old, and I probably could have gotten a few more years out of it. There was NO American vehicle manufactured in 1975 that could have taken that kind of abuse, much less not rusted off the frame.

/done feeding the troll
 
2012-10-02 10:24:01 AM  
The execs did the same thing to Detroit and the car companies that they're doing to banks and healthcare now.

Enjoy mocking Detroit while you can because it's coming to your town too.
 
2012-10-02 10:31:26 AM  
Unions aren't perfect, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice.

My understanding is in Germany management and unions compromised with each other a lot more since the whole place had to rebuild after WWII.

Lesson we should have learned? Plan for the big picture, since Asia and Europe would eventually rebuild. And insist engineers design something people would want to buy. GM faltered because of crap like the Cimarron.
 
2012-10-02 10:38:24 AM  

dennysgod: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 470x588]

Pretty awesome pic imho


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2012-10-02 10:46:42 AM  

mytdawg: The execs did the same thing to Detroit and the car companies that they're doing to banks and healthcare now.

Enjoy mocking Detroit while you can because it's coming to your town too.


The unions did to GM what they are doing to public enterprises now.

Enjoy mocking Detroit because it's coming to your town (assuming that it's public employees are highly unionized) too.

/my gross generalization is much closer to the truth than yours
 
mhd
2012-10-02 10:47:17 AM  

sodomizer: The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes.


Where did you get that from? Average wage is about $35. Granted, Volkswagen has a pretty high average ($50), but that's weighted. Never mind that there's a huge influx right now from temporary workers - basically one reason why the German economy is doing relatively well despite general draconic employment laws & regulations. At one time BMW hat 17% temps, and after some heavy arguments with their regular employees they promised to reduce it half that.

Which is a good example, as those arguments weren't with the unions, but with their works council ("Betriebsrat"), elected members of the workforce who often are able to prevent and resolve conflicts without going to an union level. Not exactly a position without corruption problems, but generally a pretty successful model. I know some other European countries have something similar, but I'm not sure about the US. And generally the unions there tend to appear a bit more aggressive, i.e. it's often more about abrupt strikes than a general back-and-forth.
 
2012-10-02 10:50:30 AM  

oh_please: Tyrosine: stuhayes2010: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x663]

Where is this? Chemistry flasks can be pricey. I will liberate them.

Not if I can get there first. Those Pyrex desiccators can go for $500 new, not to mention all the other glassware.

I think that pic was posed to make it look like it was abandoned and vandals had yanked all the drawers open, looking for anything of value. If that was the case, they would have broken all that stuff too. Probably not being used right now, and locked up tight, but the photographer decided it didn't look "abandoned" enough, and yanked all the drawers open and threw some stuff on the floor for dramatic effect.


You may be right, there's no graffiti or burning...which is what you'd expect the locals to do.

OTOH you could probably slip the guard $1000 to turn a blind eye for half an hour, build the most awesome geek-cave ever and still make a massive profit on eBay.
 
2012-10-02 10:53:08 AM  
Hey, London!



www.sinfield.org

blogs.telegraph.co.uk
farm8.staticflickr.com

assets.inhabitat.com
Shaddup.
 
2012-10-02 10:54:26 AM  

fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.


Better.
 
2012-10-02 11:03:15 AM  

madgonad: Here is a good example. AT&T Mobile and Verizon Wireless. Without searching online, guess which one is a union shop? Seriously, one mobile provider is totally union (IBEW) and the other is completely union-free.


Let's see what their shops look like.

Verizon: clean store with well-maintained displays holding a wide variety of phones
AT&T: not as clean, visible water damage on ceiling tiles, only three displays out of 20 have something other than an iPhone

I'm going to guess AT&T is the union shop.
 
2012-10-02 11:03:19 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: mytdawg: The execs did the same thing to Detroit and the car companies that they're doing to banks and healthcare now.

Enjoy mocking Detroit while you can because it's coming to your town too.

The unions did to GM what they are doing to public enterprises now.

Enjoy mocking Detroit because it's coming to your town (assuming that it's public employees are highly unionized) too.

/my gross generalization is much closer to the truth than yours


Unions did not do this to Detroit. The riots of the 1970s started this and the problem continues today. First, whites fled to the suburbs. Then the businesses in Detroit starting to decline because those same people were not doing business in the city, but in the suburbs. Then the need for employees was reduced by a drop in car sales and the introduction of robotics. The people most impacted by these two situations were mostly black (last in, first laid off) and most of those blacks live in the city itself. Add that to an already large rate of unemployment in Detroit and you have the situation in Detroit today.

And that is not a generalization at all.
 
2012-10-02 11:03:50 AM  
That was a sloppy, disjointed narrative from The Fail.

Nobody lives on this terrible street!
Is this before or after? Who knows!?
The Packard plant was abandoned in the forties and still appears abandoned according to this several year old picture!
Empty conference room!!
 
2012-10-02 11:05:46 AM  
Unions are ALWAYS BAD! That's why I always fly on Union-Free Delta and never on unionized Southwest. Did you know that Southwest is 87% unionized, making it the most unionized airline in America.

That's why Southwest is the worst. If they were less unionized like Delta, then they would be as awesome as Delta.
 
2012-10-02 11:08:29 AM  

neenerist: sodomizer: Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow...

When all you have is a hammer. Germany has unions. UAW workers made roughly the same inflation-adjusted wage I did as a summer student in the 1970's until the recent dual tier agreement halved it for new hires. Data is a biatch.


You're cherry-picking here. Germany has incorporated its unions into the decision process and regulated them. American unions are an oppositional force. Further, what I said was that "union rules" make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, which clearly applies to American union rules.

Logic is a biatch.
 
2012-10-02 11:09:45 AM  
Count me in with the bunch going looking for the chemistry lab. Finder's keepers, bros!
 
2012-10-02 11:14:02 AM  
Can the hipsters just move there and start the counter culture revival of Detroit already?
 
2012-10-02 11:20:39 AM  
yet somehow they manage to keep 4 pro sport teams with enough fans to sustain revenue.
 
2012-10-02 11:20:51 AM  

dennysgod: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 470x588]

Pretty awesome pic imho


t1.gstatic.com

approves!
 
2012-10-02 11:24:43 AM  
I remember seeing this Detroit in that shiatty Robocop movie back in the 80s.
 
2012-10-02 11:25:28 AM  
Pictures from the daily mail never load for me, any ideas on ho to fix this?
 
2012-10-02 11:25:53 AM  
Construction????

That's movie set lighting for a made for TV movie called 'HAVE A LITTLE FAITH.'

No contractor would spend that kinda money on lifts - they'd have one and take an extra 4 days to complete the job - rather than spend money on equipment rental.


Construction: Repair work is carried out at Pilgrim Church in 2011
i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2012-10-02 11:36:15 AM  

TomServo24: They left out the best one:

[reason.com image 350x475]


Is that at the old Packard plant?
 
2012-10-02 11:42:31 AM  

eggrolls: Hey, London!
assets.inhabitat.com
Shaddup.


Needs more pig.
 
2012-10-02 11:49:43 AM  

sixfingers: Pictures from the daily mail never load for me, any ideas on ho to fix this?


You're missing all the "smoking hot" women, too bad for youuuu.....
 
2012-10-02 11:52:55 AM  
This far into a thread and no reference to ICP? Fark, I am somewhat disappoint.
 
2012-10-02 11:56:54 AM  

kiwimoogle84: This far into a thread and no reference to ICP? Fark, I am somewhat disappoint.


For some reason that made me substitute the IC for the OP in OPP, but kept the original P from OPP. Made for a much funnier song, at least in my head.
 
2012-10-02 11:57:40 AM  

Fissile: It always shocks me to see how little ambition the locals have. Example: GM closed a number of factories in Michigan after their recent bankruptcy. They walked away from functioning 5 axis machine centers, stamping machines, welding equipment, etc. They even left behind functioning forklifts and flat bed trucks. If I lived near one of these places, I would have used the forklift to place some of that machinery on a flat bed and haul it to my garage. What do the locals do? They break into the place and pull out the copper wires/tubing and leave or trash the rest. WTF?


Even all those beakers and test tubes. each one can get you $5-$10 each at antique stores and flea markets that get used as decorations.
 
2012-10-02 11:59:26 AM  

The Muthaship: kiwimoogle84: This far into a thread and no reference to ICP? Fark, I am somewhat disappoint.

For some reason that made me substitute the IC for the OP in OPP, but kept the original P from OPP. Made for a much funnier song, at least in my head.


I will have OPP stuck in my head for the rest of the day now. aTHANK you.
 
2012-10-02 11:59:46 AM  
i46.tinypic.com
 
2012-10-02 12:00:32 PM  

madgonad: I know everyone likes to dog on poor Detroit, but what happened there is going to happen everywhere. They are just the canary in the coal mine - the first to go due to a very high dependence on the automotive sector.

But thanks to companies like Bain (who make the greatest profits on offshoring) and the willingness of the American consumer to prefer to save a few pennies on imports - we can all expect a similar future. Detroit failed because they lost their wealth creating jobs and the people left. The same thing is happening nationwide - that is why we won't ever break 8% unemployment again. If it wasn't for massive borrowing to stimulate the economy, we would be well over 10% unemployment and more and more cities would look like Detroit. That trend would continue to expand as the remaining wealth is quickly used to buy more and more imports since domestic production is neglected. Eventually the dollar starts devaluing, making suburbia impossible to live in with $15 gasoline. Then things get all Katrina. But keep buying that Chinese junk you don't need (and will have to replace next year when it breaks).


I don't think it's as grim as all that. The lower our dollar goes, the less appealing job offshoring gets. There is an equilibrium and I don't think a "global economy" is doing us as much good as we've been sold anyway. Sure GE makes a grip of money in India, benefiting investors, executives, and a handful of middle class American workers who administrate it, but it does little for the rest of us.

America still has a huge workforce and many natural resources.
 
2012-10-02 12:01:40 PM  

Phinn: fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.

Better.




Not true. Corporate policies, as well as union demands, are ever-changing pendulums that inevitably swing too far unless restricted by an opposing force.

Many unions go too far. Many businesses go too far. Each case should be judged individually.

/Former Teamster who voted for Walker.
 
2012-10-02 12:09:27 PM  
This is what happens when you don't have enough white people to pay for the black people.
 
2012-10-02 12:12:16 PM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]



An electric chair? "Old Sparky", istr
 
2012-10-02 12:14:46 PM  

qsblues: If there are no jobs, industry, tourism or anything of value in Detroit, then WHY do they have NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL teams there? Why haven't the teams moved yet? That shiat doesn't come cheap ...


As someone currently working at a good job in Detroit, I'm getting a kick...

Actually, downtown is doing really well. It's getting hard to buy parking.
 
2012-10-02 12:15:41 PM  

Langdon Alger: yet somehow they manage to keep 4 pro sport teams with enough fans to sustain revenue.


I'm a Michigan resident and a fan of Detroit sports (except the Lions). It takes longer to drive from my house to Detroit than it does from Detroit to D.C. Point being that most fans don't live in Detroit.
 
2012-10-02 12:20:00 PM  

Thunderpipes: JackieRabbit: archichris: JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.

Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.

No. It wasn't. It was the auto industry itself. They haven't been able to effectively compete with the Japanese for over three decades now. They've even off-shored a lot of manufacturing and assembly and they still cannot compete. The auto industry started building its own casket back in the 1970s, when they decided that crappy, gas guzzling cars that would fall apart in just a few years was acceptable.

Moron. American cars are extremely well built. All cars sucked in the 70s. Unions are killing the American auto industry, nothing more. Hopey McGM screwed things up even worse by "saving" GM.


Yeah, not so much

And that's 2012 after US manufacturers started to get the message.

American cars have had shiatty shiatty interiors forever. It's not just quality, it's also design, but it IS quality also. Ford is doing great now. Why? Because they have good quality and better design than they had (though can we get rid of that 70's prom tuxedo blue already?). In 2005, who was second to last in initial quality? Saturn. You make shiatty cars that feel cheap and you won't sell any.
 
2012-10-02 12:23:15 PM  

fickenchucker: Phinn: fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.

Better.



Not true. Corporate policies, as well as union demands, are ever-changing pendulums that inevitably swing too far unless restricted by an opposing force.

Many unions go too far. Many businesses go too far. Each case should be judged individually.

/Former Teamster who voted for Walker.


I've never met anyone willing to admit that... I'm pretty excited.

So, do you have school age children and has there been a noticeable change in the quality of their education in the past two years?
 
2012-10-02 12:31:46 PM  
Two words: Coleman Young.

Fark that useless fark and may he roast forever in the deepest bowels of Hell.
 
2012-10-02 12:32:38 PM  

fickenchucker: Phinn: fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.

Better.



Not true. Corporate policies, as well as union demands, are ever-changing pendulums that inevitably swing too far unless restricted by an opposing force.

Many unions go too far. Many businesses go too far. Each case should be judged individually.

/Former Teamster who voted for Walker.


This "pendulum" metaphor is nonsense. It's folklore. It's a psychological defense mechanism that people like you use to explain phenomena that you don't understand, or don't want to understand. It has no basis in reality.

The hard reality is that unions are, by nature, a form of aggressive violence (directed against non-members, forcibly prohibiting them from competing). Unions are indirect method of robbing both potential competitors of the chance to improve their lives (people you lovingly called "scabs," who are frequently terrorized or beaten for daring to work in ways that are contrary to your preferences). They also rob the consumer of the chance to buy an alternative good from a more preferable vendor, usually at a better price.

Like all forms of forcibly-prohibited competition, the end result of unionism (or protectionism, or any of its 10,000 variants) is an overall economic decline. Repeat daily for 50 years and the result is Detroit.

A state-enforced barrier to entry is great for the guy, like you, who unjustly benefits by having his income inflated as a result of the forcible exclusion of competitors from the market, but it's a huge economic loss to everyone else, especially the consumer.

So, I'm not surprised that a beneficiary of corrupt violence like yourself extols the virtues of corrupt violence, but don't expect the people you robbed to smile and applaud you for it. You're not fooling anyone but yourself. The hideous results of this way of thinking are on display for everyone to see.
 
2012-10-02 12:35:30 PM  

The Muthaship: Public Savant: Why doesn't the city just tear the buildings down to make parks?
Seriously.

Because that costs money, too.


Asbestos.
 
2012-10-02 12:35:37 PM  

sodomizer: Logic is a biatch


It's obvious from your posts. They'e both unions yet you rail against the concept of unions while excusing those in Germany. You illogically accuse others of cherry picking an entire country (?) while cherry picking the worst possible example of a city, all while ignoring unionized work forces across the globe in cities that aren't Detroit. Backing Romney perhaps? 
Unions are industry associations for labour, the flip side of industry associations for employers who meet to discuss wage structures and labour policies. Neither is more or less logical and moral than the other. No matter how much you rail and wail the 1% still won't sleep with you.
 
2012-10-02 12:35:40 PM  

Phinn: fickenchucker: Phinn: fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.

Better.



Not true. Corporate policies, as well as union demands, are ever-changing pendulums that inevitably swing too far unless restricted by an opposing force.

Many unions go too far. Many businesses go too far. Each case should be judged individually.

/Former Teamster who voted for Walker.

This "pendulum" metaphor is nonsense. It's folklore. It's a psychological defense mechanism that people like you use to explain phenomena that you don't understand, or don't want to understand. It has no basis in reality.

The hard reality is that unions are, by nature, a form of aggressive violence (directed against non-members, forcibly prohibiting them from competing). Unions are indirect method of robbing both potential competitors of the chance to improve their lives (people you lovingly called "scabs," who are frequently terrorized or beaten for daring to work in ways that are contrary to your preferences). They also rob the consumer of the chance to buy an alternative good from a more preferable vendor, usually at a better price.

Like all forms of forcibly-prohibited competition, the end result of unionism (or protectionism, or any of its 10,000 variants) is an overall economic decline. Repeat daily for 50 years and the result is Detroit.

A state-enforced barrier to entry is great for the guy, like you, who unjustly benefits by having his income inflated as a result of the forcible exclusion of competitors from the market, but it's a huge economic loss to everyone else, especially the consumer.

So, I'm not surprised that a beneficiary of corrupt violence like yourself extols the virtues of ...


Change a few nouns around and this is a Marxist raving. You're an extremist troll.
 
2012-10-02 12:38:58 PM  

sodomizer: The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes. Germany also has found a better solution than allowing unions to sabotage the car companies, thus making management a series of layers designed to work around that problem, thus paralyzing the (larger) American car companies from making decisions.

I don't agree that it was pensions. I think it's unions. Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, union strikes forced the auto makers to adopt other practices to stay solvent, union politics requires layers of middle management, and union attitudes make for inefficient, resentful workers. This in turn makes the company adapt.

When you have unions mucking up labor, most people are going to either (a) not work in the auto industry or (b) take on a lackadaisical outlook toward quality and other factors. The main job is to not have a strike shut down the plants.


Talk to a fireman or policeman sometime about how useless unions are.
 
2012-10-02 12:40:53 PM  

Langdon Alger: yet somehow they manage to keep 4 pro sport teams with enough fans to sustain revenue.


Tax breaks and new stadiums for the owners. Detriot can afford that no problem.
 
2012-10-02 12:45:16 PM  

Nightsweat: Change a few nouns around and this is a Marxist raving. You're an extremist troll.


Wow, deep thought, dude.

If you change a few more nouns, I'm a billionaire genius who's banging your girlfriend.
 
2012-10-02 12:47:34 PM  

Phinn: I'm a billionaire genius who's banging your girlfriend.


If you were a billionaire genius, you could do better than some farker's girlfriend....
 
2012-10-02 12:48:24 PM  
Seeing some of that beautiful architecture crumbling away, and knowing that nobody creates beautiful buildings anymore, gives me a sad.
 
2012-10-02 12:51:39 PM  
Great locations for the next seasons of Survivor, Survivorman, Man versus Wild, The Colony, and American Idol.
 
2012-10-02 12:53:30 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Unions are ALWAYS BAD! That's why I always fly on Union-Free Delta and never on unionized Southwest. Did you know that Southwest is 87% unionized, making it the most unionized airline in America.

That's why Southwest is the worst. If they were less unionized like Delta, then they would be as awesome as Delta.



shiat, Delta is "Air-Greyhound".
 
2012-10-02 12:55:07 PM  

Phinn: Nightsweat: Change a few nouns around and this is a Marxist raving. You're an extremist troll.

Wow, deep thought, dude.

If you change a few more nouns, I'm a billionaire genius who's banging your girlfriend.


Not so much deep though as yours was a shallow rant. Pretty much all you posted is bullshiat, much as the rants about how the capitalist steal the workers' labor would be from a MArxist perspective.

People have the right to unionize here. It fixed a lot of problems. They went to far sometimes, but so did the companies. Deal with it or go move someplace where unions are illegal.
 
2012-10-02 12:58:34 PM  
When the grass is gone, the sheep move on. History repeats.
 
2012-10-02 01:04:56 PM  
Crime and Violence killed Detroit. Period.
 
2012-10-02 01:05:54 PM  

ryarger: fickenchucker: Phinn: fickenchucker: Unions aren't perfect morally or economically defensible, although they never would have gotten a foothold if management actually managed for the the big picture. Like in science, there was/is a reaction to an action. Unions grew from corporate avarice corrupt union leaders colluding with corrupt politicians, but I repeat myself.

Better.



Not true. Corporate policies, as well as union demands, are ever-changing pendulums that inevitably swing too far unless restricted by an opposing force.

Many unions go too far. Many businesses go too far. Each case should be judged individually.

/Former Teamster who voted for Walker.

I've never met anyone willing to admit that... I'm pretty excited.

So, do you have school age children and has there been a noticeable change in the quality of their education in the past two years?


I do and I have. GT has been much reduced in our district.
 
2012-10-02 01:05:54 PM  

ryarger: /Former Teamster who voted for Walker.

I've never met anyone willing to admit that... I'm pretty excited.

So, do you have school age children and has there been a noticeable change in the quality of their education in the past two years?




Yes, I have kids, and no, there is no decline in education quality. The details of the big Walker hullaballoo are very simple--there was an attempt to bring the overall compensation package more in line with educated and skilled workers in the private sector. That's it. Of course there was a bunch of garment-rending and messy protesting, but at the end of the day educators still have very fair pay, healthcare, and retirement plans.

My brother is a teacher and freely admits he voted for Walker from a tax-payer perspective, but went through with all of the protesting with his friends to try and block Walker's policies.

/Yes I know it's in court again, but that's part of the process.
 
2012-10-02 01:08:14 PM  

Neruos: Crime and Violence killed Detroit. Period.


But it was a result of white flight which was a result/cause of poverty which was a result of the loss of jobs which was a result of-
 
2012-10-02 01:08:23 PM  

TomServo24: They left out the best one:

[reason.com image 350x475]


Scene from Wall-E?
 
2012-10-02 01:08:30 PM  

sodomizer: The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes. Germany also has found a better solution than allowing unions to sabotage the car companies, thus making management a series of layers designed to work around that problem, thus paralyzing the (larger) American car companies from making decisions.

I don't agree that it was pensions. I think it's unions. Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, union strikes forced the auto makers to adopt other practices to stay solvent, union politics requires layers of middle management, and union attitudes make for inefficient, resentful workers. This in turn makes the company adapt.

When you have unions mucking up labor, most people are going to either (a) not work in the auto industry or (b) take on a lackadaisical outlook toward quality and other factors. The main job is to not have a strike shut down the plants.


============

And you've worked in an auto assembly plant? A relative of mine worked at Ford Mahwah Assembly and Ford Edison Assembly. You don't know what you are talking about.

Also, please provide proof that German Auto workers are taxed at a 50% rate.
 
2012-10-02 01:21:51 PM  

Bruxellensis:

I'm a Michigan resident and a fan of Detroit sports (except the Lions). It takes longer to drive from my house to Detroit than it does from Detroit to D.C. Point being that most fans don't live in Detroit.


Where the heck do you live, Isle Royale? I used to do the Detroit to D.C. drive every month and it took 10 hours with one short break for lunch. Seriously though, you're either in Ironwood, the tip of the Keweenaw, or one heck of a slow driver.
 
2012-10-02 01:26:43 PM  

mugwump867: Bruxellensis:

I'm a Michigan resident and a fan of Detroit sports (except the Lions). It takes longer to drive from my house to Detroit than it does from Detroit to D.C. Point being that most fans don't live in Detroit.

Where the heck do you live, Isle Royale? I used to do the Detroit to D.C. drive every month and it took 10 hours with one short break for lunch. Seriously though, you're either in Ironwood, the tip of the Keweenaw, or one heck of a slow driver.


Or Windsor... Ever try to cross that bridge in rush hour? Sheesh!
 
2012-10-02 01:38:04 PM  

mugwump867: Bruxellensis:

I'm a Michigan resident and a fan of Detroit sports (except the Lions). It takes longer to drive from my house to Detroit than it does from Detroit to D.C. Point being that most fans don't live in Detroit.

Where the heck do you live, Isle Royale? I used to do the Detroit to D.C. drive every month and it took 10 hours with one short break for lunch. Seriously though, you're either in Ironwood, the tip of the Keweenaw, or one heck of a slow driver.


Keweenaw. And I drive farking fast, but we don't have freeways up here (minus a short N/S stretch of I-75).

It is farther to drive from Houghton to Detroit, Michigan than it is from Detroit to Washington, DC. It takes several fewer hours to travel to Milwaukee, Wisconsin or Minneapolis, Minnesota from Houghton than it does to travel to Detroit.
 
2012-10-02 01:42:19 PM  

The Muthaship: oldfarthenry: The Asian guy crashed his car on the way here - for no other reason than his incompetent driving skills!

Next?

It wasn't the Asian guy's fault. His just couldn't see the Cholo doing 40mph in the fast lane.


Wasn't the Cholo's fault either, he was staring at the Polack up in the tree raking leaves.
 
2012-10-02 02:08:45 PM  
This is what happens when the 47% take over a city.

www.mittromney.com

Mitt Romney for president.
 
2012-10-02 02:09:22 PM  
Feh. Ruin porn. Not even good ruin porn.
 
2012-10-02 02:19:51 PM  
Let's run down this thread:

1) Unions, not corporate incompetence/failure to compete in a capitalist market killed the auto industry
2) Unions, not a lack of patriotic responsibility forced jobs out of the country/detroit (but, "Buy American")
3) Unions are not responsible for the comfortable middle class life boomers enjoyed as children
4) Obama should have completed destroyed america's industrial base by letting GM "fail". Which by Ford and Chrysler's own admission would have destroyed them, too.
5) Black People.

Seriously, you f*cking asshole dipshiat right wing nutjobs need to GET THE fark OUT OF MY COUNTRY AND GO TO CHINA WHERE YOU farkING SLUGS BELONG.
 
2012-10-02 02:20:26 PM  

Nightsweat: Neruos: Crime and Violence killed Detroit. Period.

But it was a result of white flight which was a result/cause of poverty which was a result of the loss of jobs which was a result of-


... criminals like the Teamsters and the racketeers in government they collaborated with.
 
2012-10-02 02:23:19 PM  
Detroit was in bad shape, but Kwame Kilpatrick robbed them blind and flushed them down the toilet.
 
2012-10-02 02:27:46 PM  

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: Let's run down this thread:

1) Unions, not corporate incompetence/failure to compete in a capitalist market killed the auto industry
2) Unions, not a lack of patriotic responsibility forced jobs out of the country/detroit (but, "Buy American")
3) Unions are not responsible for the comfortable middle class life boomers enjoyed as children
4) Obama should have completed destroyed america's industrial base by letting GM "fail". Which by Ford and Chrysler's own admission would have destroyed them, too.
5) Black People.

Seriously, you f*cking asshole dipshiat right wing nutjobs need to GET THE fark OUT OF MY COUNTRY AND GO TO CHINA WHERE YOU farkING SLUGS BELONG.


You forget, Detroit is home to many, many white people who cause more trouble than most black people.
 
2012-10-02 02:38:48 PM  

Fissile: sodomizer: The average compensation package for an American auto worker is about $40/hr (that includes everything, health care, pension, vacation wages, etc). The average compensation for a German auto worker is about $70/hr. The German auto companies build high quality cars that are desired by people all over the world, and those same companies are profitable. The German auto workers are ALL unionized. They get more vacation than do American auto workers, and the Germans have (GASP!) COMMIE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.

The average compensation for a German worker is $70, of which $35 goes to taxes. Germany also has found a better solution than allowing unions to sabotage the car companies, thus making management a series of layers designed to work around that problem, thus paralyzing the (larger) American car companies from making decisions.

I don't agree that it was pensions. I think it's unions. Union rules make American workers useless and interrupt work flow, union strikes forced the auto makers to adopt other practices to stay solvent, union politics requires layers of middle management, and union attitudes make for inefficient, resentful workers. This in turn makes the company adapt.

When you have unions mucking up labor, most people are going to either (a) not work in the auto industry or (b) take on a lackadaisical outlook toward quality and other factors. The main job is to not have a strike shut down the plants.

============

And you've worked in an auto assembly plant? A relative of mine worked at Ford Mahwah Assembly and Ford Edison Assembly. You don't know what you are talking about.

Also, please provide proof that German Auto workers are taxed at a 50% rate.


It only take 20 man hours for GM or Diamler to build a $50k car.

Even at $100/hr it's only $2k or 4% of the cost of a car.

Lowering the wage to $0/hour would not significantly reduce he price of an automobile.
 
2012-10-02 03:26:39 PM  
 
2012-10-02 03:29:39 PM  

dennysgod: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 470x588]

Pretty awesome pic imho


Came in to post that. Initially thought it was a mis-link while skimming the pics until I looked close.
 
2012-10-02 03:31:19 PM  
Why dont you take the day off and try to repair
a billion others dont seem to care
better ideas are stuck in the mud
the motors runnin' on tuckers blood
dont let them tell you the future's electric
cause gasolines not measured in metric
30,000 wheels are spinnin'
and oil company faces are grinnin'
now my hands are turnin' red
and i found out my baby is dead
 
2012-10-02 03:33:07 PM  
The clock picture is very Salvador Dali'ish
 
2012-10-02 03:43:17 PM  

sodomizer: I blame bad race relations and unions. Once the unions took over, the auto industry began its decline. Once the race riots hit, the mass exodus from Detroit really began.

We should think really hard about adopting unions. Like Angela Merkel, I also think multiculturalism has failed. It's time to get some fresh thinking in here instead of these old tired ideas.



How so...?
 
2012-10-02 03:46:26 PM  
Probably already been said, but some of that shiat needs to be rented out as movie/TV sets. The rail station and that abandoned factory, to name a couple.
 
2012-10-02 03:47:16 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i46.tinypic.com image 850x582]

 
2012-10-02 04:06:02 PM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: Obligatory


I thought it was going to be this

/How da fark do we spose to keep peace?
 
2012-10-02 04:45:22 PM  
johnbardi.edublogs.org
 
2012-10-02 05:07:43 PM  

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: Let's run down this thread:

1) Unions, not corporate incompetence/failure to compete in a capitalist market killed the auto industry
bit of both
2) Unions, not a lack of patriotic responsibility forced jobs out of the country/detroit (but, "Buy American")increased costs from various sources as well as slave labor in whatever country there were moving to - btw: 'lack of patriotic responsibility' ??? o wait, your serious.jpg
3) Unions are not responsible for the comfortable middle class life boomers enjoyed as children
again, pros and cons. we went from child laborers to ridiculous pensions that are breaking economies state by state, yet i'm supposed to feel some tremendous sorrow and responsibility every year at ballot time when commercials come on saying we need more $$ for schools... for the kids.
4) Obama should have completed destroyed america's industrial base by letting GM "fail". Which by Ford and Chrysler's own admission would have destroyed them, too.i go back and forth on this one. bailing out companies with tax money seems completely counter to capitalism. i understand that it may have made things worse if they did fail and go away, but we won't know that now.
5) Black People.this is blatant stupid on your part and you do yourself and your kind a disservice by saying something so dumb. it's hard to take anything you say seriously after that, good thing you left it to the end

Seriously, you f*cking asshole dipshiat right wing nutjobs need to GET THE fark OUT OF MY COUNTRY AND GO TO CHINA WHERE YOU farkING SLUGS BELONG.


lol wut? 
 
2012-10-02 05:55:15 PM  

oh_please: I think that pic was posed to make it look like it was abandoned and vandals had yanked all the drawers open, looking for anything of value. If that was the case, they would have broken all that stuff too. Probably not being used right now, and locked up tight, but the photographer decided it didn't look "abandoned" enough, and yanked all the drawers open and threw some stuff on the floor for dramatic effect.


I think you're right about that. You can't tell me that some of the remaining intact glassware and equipment isn't suitable for cooking meth, and therefore would have disappeared long ago.
 
2012-10-02 07:21:27 PM  

Neruos: Crime and Violence killed Detroit. Period.


Brought on byyyy?
 
2012-10-02 08:02:22 PM  

Roxy Monoxide: Neruos: Crime and Violence killed Detroit. Period.

Brought on byyyy?


(Keeping in mind that I wasn't alive for this, so this is what I've picked up)

1) Segregation is ended, allowing black people to move into "white" neighborhoods for the first time.
1b) As a result of segregation, these people are usually undereducated, poor, and don't like white people.
1c) The suburbs expand as a result of the interstate system (and Detroit has the outright best freeway/traffic ratio of any city I've seen plus a decent side street network) drawing jobs and money out of the city.
2) Some of the nastier bits of the Black Power movement and 1b lead to the riots.
*riots happen here*
3) These things combined lead rich (usually white as a result of 1b, though Harlem in NYC had "black flight" in the '60's for similar reasons) people to leave the city en masse for the much nicer suburbs.
4) Coleman Young loots the city. His successors aren't much better (though Archer was decent).
5) They aren't helped by the reduced income levels and population density of the remnants.
6) As an extra fun bonus, CAFE, the rise of Japan, and increased automation destroy the auto line jobs (aka people just about qualified for minimum wage making almost 6 figures), though not the industry.
7) All of these things combined mean that money stays out of Detroit proper, though the metro area actually does pretty well.

So now Detroit is a bunch of poor black people being lorded over by corrupt black people.

/And it doesn't help that black correlates to 'poor, stupid, ghetto thug' or 'corrupt power-hungry idiot' in a lot of people's minds in the metro area, because that's all they see on tv, which is in turn all they see of black people.
//And it really doesn't help that a non-zero percentage of those same black people act like the above in person. (Not all. At the high school, they tended to be the best or the worst. We had a black drum major, the only guy on the dance team was black (and he was really good and a nice guy), a couple of spectacular black actors, and the really good up-and-coming sax player was black. In exchange, 3 of the 3 kids who failed my bio class were black (one for the 4th time in 4 years), and I only had 2 black kids in all my AP classes against about half Indian kids for the same population.)
 
2012-10-02 10:53:10 PM  

The Muthaship: I bet this one confused the Brits:

[i1240.photobucket.com image 400x584]


Took me a minute but
 
2012-10-02 11:02:23 PM  

ElBarto79: I've been to Detroit several times in the past few months. Many areas of downtown feel like a ghost town and are quite eerie, however there are people there who are taking advantage of the decline in some interesting ways. The last time i was there we came upon a rock concert in a large burned out apartment building; stages built from old wood scraps, no id checks, no entry fee, no guards and free beer. It was pretty damn cool. The advantage now is that no one cares what you do there so you have tremendous freedom. There was a cop across the street from said concert smoking a cigarette while the kids inside partied, he did not give a crap. In any other city there would be guards, wristbands and a $20 entrance fee. The old Detroit is dead but there is a new one taking form.


Where was this?
 
2012-10-02 11:55:26 PM  

archichris: JackieRabbit: Oh good lord. Detroit has been a dying, decaying, crime-ridden, industrial shiathole most of my life. Now it is almost dead. This is what happens when a city puts all its eggs in one basket.

Pensions killed Detroit. Public and private Pensions. It really was the Unions fault.


I guess the Unions made Roger Smith buy EDS?
 
2012-10-03 01:08:33 AM  

The Muthaship: Phinn: I'm a billionaire genius who's banging your girlfriend.

If you were a billionaire genius, you could do better than some farker's girlfriend....


Cuckolding is serious trolling. Might provide real kicks to someone who already has it all.
 
2012-10-03 04:50:05 AM  
Someone should spread kudzu on abandoned properties... Greenfiti
 
2012-10-03 06:34:30 AM  
I just visited Detroit for the first time and found it surprisingly alive with plenty of stuff to do, and areas improving. If I only believed slideshows I'd never know it wasn't a post war paradise.
 
2012-10-03 12:45:58 PM  

Jim.Casy: minoridiot: Are we blaming unions or african americans for the demise of Detroit today?

According to the comments FTA we are blaming it on Obama. And socialists.


How about just decades of Democrat leadership.
 
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