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(Yahoo)   New Mexico removes the word "forcible" from state regulation mentioning rape after people question the legitimacy of the term   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 62
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3071 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 5:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-02 02:54:01 AM
Now that is how one should shut things down.
 
2012-10-02 02:57:13 AM
"Rape is rape, and there can be no qualifiers attached to it,"

He said rape twice.

/just getting that out of the way
 
2012-10-02 03:24:55 AM
"Forcible rape" makes about as much sense as "deadly murder." It always involves force, even if not violence.
 
2012-10-02 04:07:18 AM
Well, if it's a legitimate rape, the State legal code has a way of knowing that, and shutting itsself down to the victim, you know.
 
2012-10-02 05:07:08 AM
I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.

It's amazing to see how neighboring states New Mexico and Arizona are so close in proximity yet so different in culture.
 
2012-10-02 05:11:41 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.


Pretty sure that falls under a different law, "false accusation."
 
2012-10-02 05:12:57 AM

Boojum2k: "Forcible rape" makes about as much sense as "deadly murder." It always involves force, even if not violence.


Many if not most states don't actually just have a law against "rape". Rape is just a catchall term for a certain category of sex crimes including sexual assault, sexual battery, sodomy by threat of force, quid pro quo sexual harassment, sexual exploitation of a minor, intentional infection of a sexual partner with a venerial disease and certain cases of fraud.

So that ranges from "always a felony and up there in the classification system with murder and arson" through "misdemeanor" and into "civil infraction with a fine".

I assume "forcible" rape is intended to be some subset of that, probably the assault/battery end of the scale and excluding statutory rape and rape by fraud. Albeit trying to qualify it in terms of allocating state assistance is stupid whether there's a legitimate subcategory or not, so kinda moot.
 
2012-10-02 05:24:27 AM
i.i.com.com
Well is it rape, or rape rape?
 
2012-10-02 05:30:27 AM
So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?
 
2012-10-02 05:30:44 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.

It's amazing to see how neighboring states New Mexico and Arizona are so close in proximity yet so different in culture.


NM was one of the last states to enforce DV laws or charges between married couples.

/just sayin'
 
2012-10-02 05:36:10 AM

Public Savant: So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?


The kind where she was clearly asking for it due to the way she dressed or acted.

/This is what the religious right actually believes
 
2012-10-02 05:37:14 AM
Ugh. Why do some people seem to want to insist on using words to defy reality? There's a reason we have terms like "forcible rape", and it's to differentiate them from the other types. Of which, yes, there are some. Statutory rape, for example. There could be no force involved there, both parties could be consenting, one party just lacks (under the law) the ability to give consent. Or, as another example, date rape, where one party might be intoxicated or drugged. Again, no force required because the other party isn't in a position to resist.

"Rape is rape" is fine if you are talking about it casually, but from a legal perspective, well, sorry, that's not really accurate.
 
2012-10-02 05:37:49 AM
Why, yes, there may be a difference between the guy who kidnapped a woman and did horrible things to her, and a guy who committed "rape" because he's a year or two older than his minor girlfriend.
 
2012-10-02 05:39:01 AM
Noting that, in fact, that guy may still himself be a minor.
 
2012-10-02 05:41:23 AM

Bhruic: Ugh. Why do some people seem to want to insist on using words to defy reality? There's a reason we have terms like "forcible rape", and it's to differentiate them from the other types. Of which, yes, there are some. Statutory rape, for example. There could be no force involved there, both parties could be consenting, one party just lacks (under the law) the ability to give consent. Or, as another example, date rape, where one party might be intoxicated or drugged. Again, no force required because the other party isn't in a position to resist.

"Rape is rape" is fine if you are talking about it casually, but from a legal perspective, well, sorry, that's not really accurate.


Stop that.

There is no place for your understanding and rationality here.
 
2012-10-02 05:44:57 AM

puffy999: Noting that, in fact, that guy may still himself be a minor.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think a situation where both participants are minors falls under either the category of "non-consensual sex", and isn't really prosecutable, or "molestation", which can have a whole range of different prosecution options.
 
2012-10-02 05:49:47 AM
His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.
 
2012-10-02 06:06:59 AM

Enemabag Jones: His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.


WTF?
 
2012-10-02 06:19:30 AM

AbbeySomeone: Enemabag Jones: His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.

WTF?


George Orwell. 1984. Damn I want to read that book, but I'm honestly a bit anxious about it.
 
2012-10-02 06:20:09 AM

Bhruic: Ugh. Why do some people seem to want to insist on using words to defy reality? There's a reason we have terms like "forcible rape", and it's to differentiate them from the other types. Of which, yes, there are some. Statutory rape, for example.


puffy999: Why, yes, there may be a difference between the guy who kidnapped a woman and did horrible things to her, and a guy who committed "rape" because he's a year or two older than his minor girlfriend.


THIS.

Note the context too:

"...a regulation setting out the conditions under which a parent could qualify for state child care assistance."

So a bf and his slightly younger minor gf fark carelessly, and the taxpayers have to pick up their babysitting bill?

Don't get me wrong: one could make a public policy decision to provide assistance to, for example, parents with a low income. However, a 17-year-old who chooses to fark her 19-year-old bf (and is 18 by the time she gives birth), she should be no more or less eligible than an 18-year-old who farks a 20-year-old.
 
2012-10-02 06:33:22 AM

gerbilpox:
So a bf and his slightly younger minor gf fark carelessly, and the taxpayers have to pick up their babysitting bill?


Honestly, fine by me.

Though were I going all dictator on New Mexico I'd add in that both parties would also be forcibly sterilized and the baby would be assigned another from a list of applicants screened by psychologists provided by single-payer health care, and free birth control would be provided for everyone so that the birth rate would be low enough to keep the pool of applicants sufficient.

//In all seriousness, though, this is a practical concerns regarding kids that are insufficiently cared for growing up to be burdens on the state, getting overly ideological about it is sort of "if wishes were horses" territory, not a valid policy position.
 
2012-10-02 06:50:30 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.

It's amazing to see how neighboring states New Mexico and Arizona are so close in proximity yet so different in culture intelligence.


FTFY
 
2012-10-02 07:01:39 AM
This is what happens when copy editors and legislation collide.
 
2012-10-02 07:05:13 AM

Public Savant: So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?


Presumably the sort where the victim was drunk or unconscious so, although consent was not given, force was not needed.
 
2012-10-02 07:05:48 AM

Lets just get this out of the way, then:

users.content.ytmnd.com
 
2012-10-02 07:19:52 AM

puffy999: Why, yes, there may be a difference between the guy who kidnapped a woman and did horrible things to her, and a guy who committed "rape" because he's a year or two older than his minor girlfriend.


That already has a name: statutory rape.
 
2012-10-02 07:19:53 AM
FTFA: The word was removed after critics highlighted the term in the wake of a controversy over Missouri Republican U.S. Senate candidate Todd Akin's comment that women have natural defenses that prevent pregnancy from "legitimate rape."

The one good thing to come out of that asshole's assholiness... legislators actually start thinking about what crap they put into laws that they write.
 
2012-10-02 07:23:57 AM

Public Savant: So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?


The frat boy kind, since they're usually the ones coming out of the woodwork to protest how unjustly biased the judicial system is against poor innocent guys like them being victimized by women who "changed their minds".
 
2012-10-02 07:24:45 AM

puffy999: Why, yes, there may be a difference between the guy who kidnapped a woman and did horrible things to her, and a guy who committed "rape" because he's a year or two older than his minor girlfriend.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
2012-10-02 07:34:53 AM
Loaded Six String,
AbbeySomeone: Enemabag Jones: His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.
WTF?
George Orwell. 1984. Damn I want to read that book, but I'm honestly a bit anxious about it.


It has been a while, but I remember the book as well paced and methodical. The movies always tried to give this bs sense of dark terror and anguish, but the book never went for that in my opinion.
 
2012-10-02 07:45:15 AM

Blitherakt: puffy999: Noting that, in fact, that guy may still himself be a minor.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think a situation where both participants are minors falls under either the category of "non-consensual sex", and isn't really prosecutable, or "molestation", which can have a whole range of different prosecution options.


Never underestimate the ability for a vindictive prosecutor to fark up the lives of people.
 
2012-10-02 07:47:13 AM

sumida sublight: Public Savant: So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?

The frat boy kind, since they're usually the ones coming out of the woodwork to protest how unjustly biased the judicial system is against poor innocent guys like them being victimized by women who "changed their minds".


Where did the mean frat boy touch you?
 
2012-10-02 07:48:49 AM

Enemabag Jones: Loaded Six String,
AbbeySomeone: Enemabag Jones: His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.
WTF?
George Orwell. 1984. Damn I want to read that book, but I'm honestly a bit anxious about it.

It has been a while, but I remember the book as well paced and methodical. The movies always tried to give this bs sense of dark terror and anguish, but the book never went for that in my opinion.


The book was certainly methodical - the terror is more of the thinking man's nightmare rather than the slasher porn type of terror. No societal outlier locking you up and doing horrible things to you; rather, it's the entirety of society doing horrible things to you out in the open, and building to it in such a way that it seems "right" and that any protest or doubt is nothing more than criminality and mental disease. Loss of individuality at all levels, a dystopic vision of the collective, no one to reason with, no real need for reason. Terrifying.
 
2012-10-02 07:56:05 AM
ytrewq.com
 
2012-10-02 08:03:01 AM

orbister: Public Savant: So what is the opposite of forcible rape, since we're all mincing words, now?

Presumably the sort where the victim was drunk or unconscious so, although consent was not given, force was not needed.


iirc, that's still forcible rape. Non-forcible is usually when consent is not valid such as when you're underaged or diminished capacity.
 
2012-10-02 08:10:07 AM

Boojum2k: "Forcible rape" makes about as much sense as "deadly murder." It always involves force, even if not violence.


and murder is murder yet we have different legal classifications.
 
2012-10-02 08:29:17 AM

AbbeySomeone: Enemabag Jones: His sexual life, for example, was entirely regulated by the two Newspeak words sexcrime (sexual immorality) and goodsex (chastity). Sexcrime covered all sexual misdeeds whatever. It covered fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and other perversions, and, in addition, normal intercourse practised for its own sake. There was no need to enumerate them separately, since they were all equally culpable, and, in principle, all punishable by death. In the C vocabulary, which consisted of scientific and technical words, it might be necessary to give specialized names to certain sexual aberrations, but the ordinary citizen had no need of them. He knew what was meant by goodsex - that is to say, normal intercourse between man and wife, for the sole purpose of begetting children, and without physical pleasure on the part of the woman: all else was sexcrime. In Newspeak it was seldom possible to follow a heretical thought further than the perception that it was heretical: beyond that point the necessary words were nonexistent.

WTF?


How the fark old are you?

Or rather, how the fark dumb are you?
 
2012-10-02 08:32:16 AM
That's some fine knee-jerking, boys.

Forcible rape: the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence while committing the act of involuntary sexual intercourse. The use of force is an aggravating circumstance, which carries harsher penalties.

Non-forcible rape: the act of voluntary or involuntary sexual intercourse in which no physical violent or threat of physical violence is used. This includes such acts as performing sexual intercourse on an unconscious victim and having consensual sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained the age of consent.

Politicians = morons
 
2012-10-02 08:33:44 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.

It's amazing to see how neighboring states New Mexico and Arizona are so close in proximity yet so different in culture.


If Susana Martinez had her way, they'd be very similar. She's trying to get as much food from the right-wing buffet onto her plate, but much of it is falling off.
 
2012-10-02 08:52:06 AM
came for the rape-rape. Left happy.

i.ytimg.com
Seriously. She said that on national TV.
 
2012-10-02 09:08:02 AM
This whole thing makes me think of George Carlin's unnecessary words routine.
 
2012-10-02 09:50:14 AM
Look: this dickhead from Montana is a jerk for lots of reasons, but this quote has been overreacted to to death. There is such a thing as non-forcible rape, legally. It's called statutory rape, and the context he used the word in gives reason to distinguish it from violent rape. If a woman deserves to be punished for having sex (which she doesn't), then it would make ethical sense to apply the same standard of punishment to a 16 year old who had consensual sex w/ a 20 year old.
 
2012-10-02 10:12:21 AM

gerbilpox: Bhruic: Ugh. Why do some people seem to want to insist on using words to defy reality? There's a reason we have terms like "forcible rape", and it's to differentiate them from the other types. Of which, yes, there are some. Statutory rape, for example.

puffy999: Why, yes, there may be a difference between the guy who kidnapped a woman and did horrible things to her, and a guy who committed "rape" because he's a year or two older than his minor girlfriend.

THIS.

Note the context too:

"...a regulation setting out the conditions under which a parent could qualify for state child care assistance."

So a bf and his slightly younger minor gf fark carelessly, and the taxpayers have to pick up their babysitting bill?

Don't get me wrong: one could make a public policy decision to provide assistance to, for example, parents with a low income. However, a 17-year-old who chooses to fark her 19-year-old bf (and is 18 by the time she gives birth), she should be no more or less eligible than an 18-year-old who farks a 20-year-old.


I am a lawyer in New Mexico (so I'm getting a real kick out of some of these replies) and I will tell you that NM has a "Romeo and Juliet law." The age of consent is 18, unless the older partner is less than 4 years older than the younger one. Then, the age of consent is 16 (so a 19 year old can fark a 16 year old, a 20 year old can fark a 17 year old, etc.) So, the scenario you described would not happen. Also, NM has no crime called "rape." It's "criminal sexual penetration," so I'm guessing that the use of the word "rape" in the regulation does not refer to the definition in the New Mexico criminal code, but actually refers to the common meaning, which would probably be interpreted as rape rape. Discuss. Note: this information is for entertainment purposes only, and is not intended as legal advice.
 
2012-10-02 10:27:54 AM
All rape is forcible. There is no mellow rape or whatever.
 
2012-10-02 10:30:16 AM

JackieRabbit: That's some fine knee-jerking, boys.

Forcible rape: the use of physical violence or the threat of physical violence while committing the act of involuntary sexual intercourse. The use of force is an aggravating circumstance, which carries harsher penalties.

Non-forcible rape: the act of voluntary or involuntary sexual intercourse in which no physical violent or threat of physical violence is used. This includes such acts as performing sexual intercourse on an unconscious victim and having consensual sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained the age of consent.

Politicians = morons


You're calling them morons for saying that should be illegal?
 
2012-10-02 10:45:36 AM

r1niceboy: AverageAmericanGuy: I would assume that they used the term 'forcible' to distinguish actual rapes from morning after regret rapes.

It's amazing to see how neighboring states New Mexico and Arizona are so close in proximity yet so different in culture.

If Susana Martinez had her way, they'd be very similar. She's trying to get as much food from the right-wing buffet onto her plate, but much of it is falling off.


THIS! Our Tea-Bag leaning Governor Susana wanted to get rid of our Medical Cannabis Laws, and her Political Advisors are all asses, Her Chief of Staff - (a Mormon) was recorded calling a State Senator a Mutha-Farker and Cawk-Sucker and they are trying to influence major state elections so they can ram further crap down our throats! Our last "good" Governor was Gary Johnson!
 
2012-10-02 10:54:01 AM

Blitherakt: Or, as another example, date rape, where one party might be intoxicated or drugged. Again, no force required because the other party isn't in a position to resist, so it doesn't really count as rape, brah.

 
2012-10-02 11:06:02 AM

Theaetetus: Non-forcible rape: the act of voluntary or involuntary sexual intercourse in which no physical violent or threat of physical violence is used. This includes such acts as performing sexual intercourse on an unconscious victim and having consensual sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained the age of consent.

You're calling them morons for saying that should be illegal?


The availability of social services for those victims? I would call them morons for wanting to make that illegal, but you seem to confused about what the article and actual law change involved.
 
2012-10-02 11:07:48 AM

Theaetetus: You're calling them morons for saying that should be illegal?


No. I'm saying that they are morons for latching onto this non-issue and changing the law in their state solely for political purposes. There is forceable and non-forceable rape and they must have statues to cover both. Should a man who has sex with a willing girl, who has not reached the age of consent, be subject to the same accusation/penalties as a man who beats a woman senseless and sexually brutalizes her? Of course not.

But this is an election year and so they must posture and, by doing so, waste the taxpayers' money. Next year the legislature will quietly repeal this, since legally it is untenable.
 
2012-10-02 11:43:38 AM
Forcible rape is a label used by the FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) to group together rape crimes from various sources.

From the UCR definition:

Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded.

There's supposedly an updated definition out there from the DOJ that removes the requirement for the victim to be female, and allows for anal or oral contact to be considered rape, but none of the FBI documentation reflects it that I can find.


Should laws be defining forcible rape? Only if there is also a category for non-forcible. But the label itself does have a real legitimate source at the FBI and DOJ.
 
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