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(Daily Mail)   Nine-year-old shoots and kills classmate over who should have been student of the week. Well, odds are that the shooter isn't going to be named student of the week now   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 124
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11170 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Oct 2012 at 4:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-02 07:48:32 AM

Loaded Six String: HotWingConspiracy: Guns make you safe.

Hyperbole makes you difficult to take seriously.


Gun owners say it all the time. Is it hyperbole when they say it?
 
2012-10-02 07:49:53 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Loaded Six String: HotWingConspiracy: Guns make you safe.

Hyperbole makes you difficult to take seriously.

Gun owners say it all the time. Is it hyperbole when they say it?


No we don't. At best, we say it gives you options that you wouldn't have otherwise. No one I'm aware of says "Hey, if you have a gun, you are safe".
 
2012-10-02 07:52:56 AM

dittybopper: No we don't.


Yeah, I've read these threads. Maybe you don't personally say it, but it's boilerplate rhetoric.
 
2012-10-02 08:02:25 AM

doglover: You can kill a boy with a pellet gun?


As someone who had multiple BBs and Pellets embedded in my body as a yute (some which remain), I can assure you that BB/Pellet guns can do some damage.

/ That's what you get when you play 'war' the way we did.
 
2012-10-02 08:03:50 AM

xanadian: Why does a 9-year-old have a f*cking high-powered pellet gun? Where were the parents in all this??

/you'll shoot your eye out, kid!


It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.
 
2012-10-02 08:04:45 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: No we don't.

Yeah, I've read these threads. Maybe you don't personally say it, but it's boilerplate rhetoric.


I've read these threads too. I see people saying "If X had Y, they *COULD* have done something". I emphasize the "could" because it's not a certainty that they would have done something, or even if they did that it necessarily would have been effective. Nothing is a certainty, of course.

I like to liken it to having a fire extinguisher. Obviously, if you have one, and a fire breaks out, you've got more options than if you didn't have one, but it doesn't necessarily obligate you to use it if the circumstances don't warrant it. It just gives you more options than you would have had if you didn't have one.
 
2012-10-02 08:05:47 AM

PallMall: xanadian: Why does a 9-year-old have a f*cking high-powered pellet gun? Where were the parents in all this??

/you'll shoot your eye out, kid!

It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.


To be fair, that is a caliber for prepubescent boys and slightly built women.
 
2012-10-02 08:06:39 AM

dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: No we don't.

Yeah, I've read these threads. Maybe you don't personally say it, but it's boilerplate rhetoric.

I've read these threads too. I see people saying "If X had Y, they *COULD* have done something". I emphasize the "could" because it's not a certainty that they would have done something, or even if they did that it necessarily would have been effective. Nothing is a certainty, of course.

I like to liken it to having a fire extinguisher. Obviously, if you have one, and a fire breaks out, you've got more options than if you didn't have one, but it doesn't necessarily obligate you to use it if the circumstances don't warrant it. It just gives you more options than you would have had if you didn't have one.


I'll check the thread later when it's filled with charts and graphs that "prove" having guns makes you safer. All posted by gun enthusiasts.
 
2012-10-02 08:08:34 AM
Yesterday someone walked up to the Czech President and shot him with a pellet gun. The guy was only charged with disorderly conduct.

http://www.newser.com/story/155050/czech-president-is-shot-with-a-pe ll et-gun.html
 
2012-10-02 08:09:19 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Loaded Six String: HotWingConspiracy: Guns make you safe.

Hyperbole makes you difficult to take seriously.

Gun owners say it all the time. Is it hyperbole when they say it?


In response to "Gun Free Zones" no doubt, in which case it isn't that having a gun makes you safer, not being allowed to have one severely limits your options in the situation of a spree shooting/ personal attack. Chalk that up to the most vocal amongst us (people) not being wordsmiths. A poorly expressed idea can still have a logical basis which is worth exploring. Herpaderp is herpaderp, regardless of which side of an issue it comes from.
 
2012-10-02 08:13:21 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: No we don't.

Yeah, I've read these threads. Maybe you don't personally say it, but it's boilerplate rhetoric.

I've read these threads too. I see people saying "If X had Y, they *COULD* have done something". I emphasize the "could" because it's not a certainty that they would have done something, or even if they did that it necessarily would have been effective. Nothing is a certainty, of course.

I like to liken it to having a fire extinguisher. Obviously, if you have one, and a fire breaks out, you've got more options than if you didn't have one, but it doesn't necessarily obligate you to use it if the circumstances don't warrant it. It just gives you more options than you would have had if you didn't have one.

I'll check the thread later when it's filled with charts and graphs that "prove" having guns makes you safer. All posted by gun enthusiasts.


Then we can all have a good chuckle over a beer at the response graphs citing gun deaths for chidren which have an age range between 1 and 19 years of age, while not controlling for gang related violent crime (direct shooting, not bystander incidents.) All posted by people with an inability to trust other people not to snap and murder at the drop of a hat because they have a certain tool.
 
2012-10-02 08:15:36 AM

dittybopper: PallMall: xanadian: Why does a 9-year-old have a f*cking high-powered pellet gun? Where were the parents in all this??

/you'll shoot your eye out, kid!

It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.

To be fair, that is a caliber for prepubescent boys and slightly built women.


First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.
 
2012-10-02 08:15:50 AM

Loaded Six String: Part of the reason why I'm a proponent of mandatory Eddie Eagle (NRA children's gun safety) classes in all elementary schools. "If you find a gun, STOP! Don't touch it, tell an adult." Would help more than D.A.R.E. I would think.

Make more comprehensive gun safety courses available to high school kids with parental permission. "Every gun is loaded, never point a gun at anything you do not want destroyed, etc." The comprehensive courses don't even need to utilize actual firearms, to appease the "Think of the children!" parents.



While this a practical idea and makes a lot of sense, it would never fly. You know the far left would view this with the same amount of hatred and furor as they do when Christianity is brought up when schools are teaching about world religions. They would see this as "promoting" guns in the school system. Just as the far right sees teaching sex education as the promotion of teens farking, homosexuality, and "buy 2 get 1 free" abortions for all...whooooooo!
 
2012-10-02 08:21:44 AM
Wait a minute...what about the teacher?

I bet there was a teacher behind this, playing them against each other.

Y'know, nobody gets to be the student of the week without the approval from above, y'hear? Nobody.
 
2012-10-02 08:22:23 AM

dittybopper: It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.

To be fair, that is a caliber for prepubescent boys and slightly built women.


Which is why I'd expect a 9-year old to be toting it around. BB/Pellet guns are for 1st Graders.
 
2012-10-02 08:23:35 AM

Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.


Mosin-Nagant?
 
2012-10-02 08:26:57 AM

Confabulat: Why do the people in yonder remote Alaskan village paint their houses such bright and garish colors? I mean, I can sort of see why but is that why?


Uh... so they stand out when covered by a snow drift... DUH!
 
2012-10-02 08:30:00 AM

Endive Wombat: Loaded Six String: Part of the reason why I'm a proponent of mandatory Eddie Eagle (NRA children's gun safety) classes in all elementary schools. "If you find a gun, STOP! Don't touch it, tell an adult." Would help more than D.A.R.E. I would think.

Make more comprehensive gun safety courses available to high school kids with parental permission. "Every gun is loaded, never point a gun at anything you do not want destroyed, etc." The comprehensive courses don't even need to utilize actual firearms, to appease the "Think of the children!" parents.


While this a practical idea and makes a lot of sense, it would never fly. You know the far left would view this with the same amount of hatred and furor as they do when Christianity is brought up when schools are teaching about world religions. They would see this as "promoting" guns in the school system. Just as the far right sees teaching sex education as the promotion of teens farking, homosexuality, and "buy 2 get 1 free" abortions for all...whooooooo!


Well, call me a dreamer then. I believe pragmatism will prevail eventually. Guns aren't going away, there's no good reason brought to the table so far not to allow gay couples the same benefits and responsibilities of straight couples, teenagers are going to have sex, and the restriction of cannabis will collapse under the weight of logical scrutiny eventually.
 
2012-10-02 08:32:40 AM

PallMall: Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.

Mosin-Nagant?


Yep. Beat the hell out of getting a Red Ryder for Christmas 14 years earlier. Finally got a scout scope mounted to it, now I can't wait to get it zeroed in.
 
2012-10-02 08:37:10 AM
what, marksmenship doesn't count toward SOTW?
 
2012-10-02 08:45:30 AM

Loaded Six String: Mosin-Nagant?

Yep. Beat the hell out of getting a Red Ryder for Christmas 14 years earlier. Finally got a scout scope mounted to it, now I can't wait to get it zeroed in.


Good, cheap weapon. Found a stockpile of them at "Gander Mountain" for $80/ea a few years ago. Bought three.

As far as recoil goes.. Your body is the shock absorber, adjust it to match the rifle, and you won't be worrying about kick as much. Being too stiff will only hurt you. Ever put the butt of a hi-powered rifle up to concrete and set it off? The rifle turns to splinters.
 
2012-10-02 08:47:30 AM

Brick-House: what, marksmenship doesn't count toward SOTW?


Only at the USAFA.

/Air Force has marksmanship training too. Shocking, I know.
 
2012-10-02 08:49:07 AM

Confabulat: Why do the people in yonder remote Alaskan village paint their houses such bright and garish colors? I mean, I can sort of see why but is that why?


Easier to see in a snowstorm?
 
2012-10-02 08:49:39 AM

Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.


Puss. This was my first rifle:

img144.imageshack.us
 
2012-10-02 08:51:14 AM

PallMall: dittybopper: It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.

To be fair, that is a caliber for prepubescent boys and slightly built women.

Which is why I'd expect a 9-year old to be toting it around. BB/Pellet guns are for 1st Graders.


Before that, start them with archery:

i40.tinypic.com
 
2012-10-02 08:53:40 AM
Guns don't kill people, children do. Kill them all.
 
2012-10-02 08:54:10 AM

PallMall: Loaded Six String: Mosin-Nagant?

Yep. Beat the hell out of getting a Red Ryder for Christmas 14 years earlier. Finally got a scout scope mounted to it, now I can't wait to get it zeroed in.

Good, cheap weapon. Found a stockpile of them at "Gander Mountain" for $80/ea a few years ago. Bought three.

As far as recoil goes.. Your body is the shock absorber, adjust it to match the rifle, and you won't be worrying about kick as much. Being too stiff will only hurt you. Ever put the butt of a hi-powered rifle up to concrete and set it off? The rifle turns to splinters.


Not too proud to admit I added a rubber "biatch pad" to it. It reduces recoil, offering a more stable and accurate shot. I see it as no different from the additions made to a handgun to make it competition ready. Thanks for the tip.
 
2012-10-02 08:55:41 AM

dittybopper: PallMall: dittybopper: It being Alaska... I'm surprised it wasn't a .243.

To be fair, that is a caliber for prepubescent boys and slightly built women.

Which is why I'd expect a 9-year old to be toting it around. BB/Pellet guns are for 1st Graders.

Before that, start them with archery:

[i40.tinypic.com image 640x480]


That too... and teach them how to set snares and traps. They don't have to live in the wilderness for that either. By 9 years old, I was an expert in punji stick traps. Set them up in the back yard. Damn squirrels never knew what hit'em.

/had to fill them in after my sister took a dive... good times.
 
2012-10-02 08:57:41 AM

Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.


I was joking earlier, of course, but I'm not impressed with the "7.62x54R kicks hard" argument. It kicks about like other calibers of its era, like the .30-06 Springfield, the .303 British, the 8mm Mauser, and the .308 Winchester.

It only *SEEMS* like it kicks hard if you've never fired a full powered battle rifle cartridge in a military-style bolt action before. Put in relation to the others, it's not all that much different. In fact, I've shot a sporterized* SMLE in .303 that kicked harder than any MN I've fired.

*Sporterized = butchered.
 
2012-10-02 08:58:20 AM

dittybopper: Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.

Puss. This was my first rifle:

[img144.imageshack.us image 320x240]


Grandpa lived in New Jersey his entire life, so I didn't have the opportunity to inherit fun antiques like that. I'm sort of a firearms late bloomer if you will (permit? I never understood what the rest of the phrase is implied to be.)
 
2012-10-02 08:59:17 AM

Loaded Six String: Not too proud to admit I added a rubber "biatch pad" to it. It reduces recoil, offering a more stable and accurate shot. I see it as no different from the additions made to a handgun to make it competition ready. Thanks for the tip.


If it helps you out, and you take down whatever you're aiming at... there's no "biatch" about it. The most prolific sniper in history used that weapon. Citation
 
2012-10-02 09:02:46 AM

Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.


Yeah, but the Mosin-Nagant is cheap and reliable! Still fairly cheap to feed, too. :-)
 
2012-10-02 09:03:09 AM

dittybopper: It only *SEEMS* like it kicks hard if you've never fired a full powered battle rifle cartridge in a military-style bolt action before. Put in relation to the others, it's not all that much different. In fact, I've shot a sporterized* SMLE in .303 that kicked harder than any MN I've fired.

*Sporterized = butchered.


I second this.... and those older weapons had less ergonomic butts than more modern rifles, so it's kinda like trying to make a tee shot with a driver from the 50's - you gotta practice.
 
2012-10-02 09:04:34 AM

dittybopper: Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.

I was joking earlier, of course, but I'm not impressed with the "7.62x54R kicks hard" argument. It kicks about like other calibers of its era, like the .30-06 Springfield, the .303 British, the 8mm Mauser, and the .308 Winchester.

It only *SEEMS* like it kicks hard if you've never fired a full powered battle rifle cartridge in a military-style bolt action before. Put in relation to the others, it's not all that much different. In fact, I've shot a sporterized* SMLE in .303 that kicked harder than any MN I've fired.

*Sporterized = butchered.


I'm not snarked out by Fark yet. I caught it. Indeed, I'd had no previous experience with a battle rifle cartridge. In fact the aforementioned Red Ryder was the only rifle like projectile weapon I'd fired previously. Mostly handguns in between.

/I agree that sporterizing is butchery. That's why I was torn between buying a turned down bolt handle and era appropriate PU scope or a forward mounted scout scope. Went with the cheaper scout scope because it didn't ruin the aesthetic appeal of the rifle.
//They can take my original wood finish when they can pry it from my cold dead hands.
 
2012-10-02 09:06:43 AM

stevarooni: Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.

Yeah, but the Mosin-Nagant is cheap and reliable! Still fairly cheap to feed, too. :-)


Bought a matching pair for my father and I as Christmas gifts. One of my prized posessions.
 
2012-10-02 09:16:39 AM
I used to think my old man was crazy because he would let me shoot real guns when I was a kid, but refused to let me have a BB gun or pellet gun. His reasoning was that kids often treat the latter as toys, and that's when windows get shot out or someone loses an eye. He figured it was better to show me how to properly use a gun that I knew was dangerous and would treat with respect. After reading this article, I guess I can see the logic in that now. I doubt very much if the kid thought that the pellet gun would kill someone, and so he wasn't as careful with it as he should have been.
 
2012-10-02 09:18:34 AM
maybe he felt that his college future was threatened and he was standing his ground
 
2012-10-02 09:26:15 AM

washington: maybe he felt that his college future was threatened and he was standing his ground


Damn... not even the highly pressured asian kids resort to that.
 
2012-10-02 09:27:56 AM

Loaded Six String: Damn... not even the highly pressured asian kids resort to that.


Because they don't get to go outside in the first place.
 
2012-10-02 09:29:44 AM

mod3072: I used to think my old man was crazy because he would let me shoot real guns when I was a kid, but refused to let me have a BB gun or pellet gun. His reasoning was that kids often treat the latter as toys, and that's when windows get shot out or someone loses an eye.


That's sound reasoning, yep. I know a few gun enthusiasts who won't let their kids have (non-shooting) toy guns for the same reason. Guns must be respected...not feared, but definitely respected.
 
2012-10-02 09:35:19 AM

mod3072: I used to think my old man was crazy because he would let me shoot real guns when I was a kid, but refused to let me have a BB gun or pellet gun. His reasoning was that kids often treat the latter as toys, and that's when windows get shot out or someone loses an eye. He figured it was better to show me how to properly use a gun that I knew was dangerous and would treat with respect. After reading this article, I guess I can see the logic in that now. I doubt very much if the kid thought that the pellet gun would kill someone, and so he wasn't as careful with it as he should have been.


There is a certain logic to that. For example, the littlebopper got a .22 on his 8th birthday:

i47.tinypic.com

He knows the rules, and he doesn't get unsupervised access, but he *DOES* get to shoot a real gun, subject to being watched like a hawk by myself. When he wants to look at it, he can, but again only when closely supervised. Otherwise, it sits in the safe, and I have the key.
 
2012-10-02 09:35:40 AM

Loaded Six String: dittybopper: Loaded Six String: First rifle for me was 7.62 x 54r. Even at 24 years of age that thing kicks hard. Steel butt plate doesn't soften the blow much.

I was joking earlier, of course, but I'm not impressed with the "7.62x54R kicks hard" argument. It kicks about like other calibers of its era, like the .30-06 Springfield, the .303 British, the 8mm Mauser, and the .308 Winchester.

It only *SEEMS* like it kicks hard if you've never fired a full powered battle rifle cartridge in a military-style bolt action before. Put in relation to the others, it's not all that much different. In fact, I've shot a sporterized* SMLE in .303 that kicked harder than any MN I've fired.

*Sporterized = butchered.

I'm not snarked out by Fark yet. I caught it. Indeed, I'd had no previous experience with a battle rifle cartridge. In fact the aforementioned Red Ryder was the only rifle like projectile weapon I'd fired previously. Mostly handguns in between.

/I agree that sporterizing is butchery. That's why I was torn between buying a turned down bolt handle and era appropriate PU scope or a forward mounted scout scope. Went with the cheaper scout scope because it didn't ruin the aesthetic appeal of the rifle.
//They can take my original wood finish when they can pry it from my cold dead hands.


What I've always heard is; won't you feel silly if your rifle could have been worth $1,000,000; instead it's worth right around $200 because you sporterized it.

I too have a mosin; I'd love to get a reproduction pu scope and a bolt with a bent handle; but all that would cost more than the rifle is worth and wouldn't add any value to the rifle.
 
2012-10-02 09:36:57 AM

stevarooni: That's sound reasoning, yep. I know a few gun enthusiasts who won't let their kids have (non-shooting) toy guns for the same reason. Guns must be respected...not feared, but definitely respected.


Absolutely.

I also think that there should be more emphasis on the rituals that follow your first kill when hunting. Drinking the blood of the deer, or taking a bite of the heart, or smearing some of the blood on your face as a reminder that life is very precious, and to take it is a very sacred thing.
 
2012-10-02 09:37:19 AM

Jim_Callahan:
Or, to put it another way: my pellet gun was under my bed and my brother and I shot each other all the time with no problems (other than the results of the ensuing fistfights). My father's pellet gun was in the gun safe, with the shotgun and the rifles, and if we'd touched it without permission and supervision we'd have been grounded until we were 50.


Yep. My son has a .177 Daisy multi-pump. I've got a .22 air rifle rated at around 1000 fps. He's been told not to mess with it without me there. He's generally good about following those kind of instructions, but in any case, it's a stiff break barrel that he'd play hell just getting cocked.
 
2012-10-02 09:39:20 AM

stevarooni: That's sound reasoning, yep. I know a few gun enthusiasts who won't let their kids have (non-shooting) toy guns for the same reason. Guns must be respected...not feared, but definitely respected.


I agree, except that I have no problem with my son having things like Nerf guns, and engaging in Nerf battles with his friends. He knows the difference. He understands the permanence of death, also, having helped bury our cat that died. I insisted he help. My parents shielded me from the reality of death as a youngster, and I don't think they did me any favors in doing so.
 
2012-10-02 09:43:41 AM

dittybopper: I agree, except that I have no problem with my son having things like Nerf guns, and engaging in Nerf battles with his friends. He knows the difference.


Nerf does pretty well in distinguishing their guns from actual firearms. Bright colors, funky bulkiness...little chance of being mistaken for a deadly firearm.

dittybopper: He understands the permanence of death, also, having helped bury our cat that died. I insisted he help. My parents shielded me from the reality of death as a youngster, and I don't think they did me any favors in doing so.


That's a sobering lesson, but I think you done right by your boy.
 
2012-10-02 09:46:43 AM

iheartscotch: I too have a mosin; I'd love to get a reproduction pu scope and a bolt with a bent handle; but all that would cost more than the rifle is worth and wouldn't add any value to the rifle.


Well, except for making it a more capable sniper rifle, with adjustable sights. :D But yeah, much more than the rifle's worth.
 
2012-10-02 09:49:49 AM

stevarooni: dittybopper: I agree, except that I have no problem with my son having things like Nerf guns, and engaging in Nerf battles with his friends. He knows the difference.

Nerf does pretty well in distinguishing their guns from actual firearms. Bright colors, funky bulkiness...little chance of being mistaken for a deadly firearm.


Plus, they accessorize like a friggin' AR on steroids. Pretty neat, I must admit, and as you all know, I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to projectile weapons.

dittybopper: He understands the permanence of death, also, having helped bury our cat that died. I insisted he help. My parents shielded me from the reality of death as a youngster, and I don't think they did me any favors in doing so.

That's a sobering lesson, but I think you done right by your boy.


I hope so. Sometimes the best or most important lessons aren't the easiest.
 
2012-10-02 10:07:38 AM

dittybopper: Plus, they accessorize like a friggin' AR on steroids. Pretty neat, I must admit, and as you all know, I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to projectile weapons.


*groan* Don't remind me about AR-15s. Those things are painfully addictive. "Fun gun! All I need is a scope. Oh, I can get a quad-rail handguard? Excellent. Oh, and I've got to get the single-point attachment plate. Is that a red dot sight? It must be mine! Oh, and the .22lr upper...and maybe a .50 BMG upper...." As a non-enthusiast friend of mine said, "It's the Mr. Potato Head of guns!"
 
2012-10-02 10:16:22 AM
SSRI
 
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