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(CBS Sports)   The AL MVP discussion is starting to mirror American political discourse, with angry old traditionalists on the side of Miguel Cabrera and relativist hipster douchebags on the side of Mike Trout. Both sides are bad, so vote for Adrian Beltre   (cbssports.com) divider line 456
    More: Interesting, Miguel Cabrera, MVP, Discussion, al mvp, Rob Parker, cherry-picks, rational arguments, douche bags  
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529 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Oct 2012 at 8:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 10:16:17 PM

DeWayne Mann: Because he has none.


Cabrera has no range? Did you miss where someone posted his defensive stats? Seems to have plenty of range.
 
2012-10-01 10:16:18 PM

bulldg4life: DeWayne Mann: If you didn't let me know, and I'll be happy to explain further.

Who's team is going to the playoffs?

Considering both are their team's most important player...


The Angels have the better record. Did Cabrera somehow make the AL Central a terrible division?
 
2012-10-01 10:17:46 PM

bulldg4life: nein: RngR

You're just making stuff up now.


Yeah, which is why I quoted the definition:

RngR, or range runs, which is defined as "The number of runs above or below average a fielder is, determined by how the fielder is able to get to balls hit in his vicinity"

Trust me, I'm not that clever or spontaneous.

 
2012-10-01 10:18:32 PM
Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.
 
2012-10-01 10:18:48 PM

ignatius_crumbcake: I hope you mean 'this year.' Cause a stathead declaring Trout a better hitter based on a 140 game sample size (when Cabrera has been putting up similar numbers for the past 4 seasons) might make my head asplode. Trout will regress next year; he almost has to.


I have no idea what'll happen in the future. It's true that Trout has a rather high BABIP, but he's also the EXACT sort of player we'd expect to have a high BABIP.

So, yes, I meant this year, but I wouldn't be surprised either way in the future.

ignatius_crumbcake: Small sample size, but his numbers at DH are not as good. Plus the Tigers already have a DH (well, they do next year...). If anyone should DH, it's Prince. A hitter of Cabrera's caliber is more valuable at 3rd than DH, but you already know that.


I actually agree about Prince being the DH instead, but I was assuming "I get to play 1B" was a part of Prince's negotiation.

The real question is how much Cabrera at 3rd hurts defensively vs Cabrera at DH. And it's much, much more than most people are claiming.

ignatius_crumbcake: His defense has, in fact, been better than people were expecting.


Again, it sort of depends on how you evaluate defense. He's been roughly what I expected. Maybe a slightly better arm.

But if all you care about is fielding percentage, then, sure, he's awesome.

WhyteRaven74: DeWayne Mann: Except, you know, not.

A batter who can hit for average and power at the same time, is in all cases the superior hitter. And if you can do those two things you'll rack up RBIs as an extension of doing it.


In general, 300 win pitchers tend to be very good. But wins aren't a good way to evaluate pitchers.

Similarly, in general, Triple Crown hitters have been very good. That does not indicate that the Triple Crown is a good way to evaluate hitting.

great_tigers: Would you rate those stats though (which sounds to be perception based) and 44 more steals be more important than the offensive power that Miggy has


I certainly would. Especially since, again, I don't think Cabrera & Trout are all the different offensively.
 
2012-10-01 10:19:17 PM

Rex_Banner: The Angels have the better record. Did Cabrera somehow make the AL Central a terrible division?


There's a reasonable chance that the gravitational pull of Fielder and Miggy on the same field caused a win distortion field in the upper midwest. That point aside...Miggy's team will be playing next week.

I'm glad we've extended the "his stats don't matter because of other people" to "the team's performance doesn't matter because of other teams"
 
2012-10-01 10:19:46 PM
I screwed up the formatting of my last reply:

bulldg4life: nein: RngR

You're just making stuff up now.


Yeah, which is why I quoted the definition:

RngR, or range runs, which is defined as "The number of runs above or below average a fielder is, determined by how the fielder is able to get to balls hit in his vicinity"

Trust me, I'm not that clever or spontaneous.
 
2012-10-01 10:20:54 PM

bulldg4life: I have never felt the need to question someone's stats based on what other people are doing. His stats are his stats. He is performing the best based on those stats


You're contradicting yourself in the space of these three sentences. You say, essentially, that you aren't comparing one player's stats to another. And then you say that those stats make one player better than all the other players. How can you say one player is better than another, let alone "the best", if you aren't comparing the different players' statistical performances?

In other words, Joe Johnson could hit 10 homeruns all year long. Is he the "best" homerun hitter? Well, if nobody else in his league hit any more than 6 homeruns, then yeah, he's the best. If Joe Smith hit 40 homeruns in that same league, though, well, we have to re-evaluate Joe Johnson's status as the "best" homerun hitter.
 
2012-10-01 10:21:20 PM

WhyteRaven74: DeWayne Mann: Because he has none.

Cabrera has no range? Did you miss where someone posted his defensive stats? Seems to have plenty of range.


If by "plenty" you mean "negative..."
 
2012-10-01 10:21:23 PM

violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.


It even has numbers for DeWayne.

si.wsj.net
 
2012-10-01 10:21:51 PM
DeWayne,

You made the comment that runs are more important than RBI's. Ok whatever, that sounds stupid but I will play.

Which line is better

127 runs and 80 rbis
109 runs and 137 rbis
 
2012-10-01 10:23:01 PM

Sandor at the Zoo: You're contradicting yourself in the space of these three sentences. You say, essentially, that you aren't comparing one player's stats to another. And then you say that those stats make one player better than all the other players. How can you say one player is better than another, let alone "the best", if you aren't comparing the different players' statistical performances?


I mean that I do not diminish one player's stats because some other player is or is not doing something. Obviously, we use stats to measure a player's performance.

But, when I see that someone is leading the league with 50 homeruns, I don't say...well, he's only leading the league because Joe Dumbass only has 48 home runs.

That's the argument being used for the triple crown. Miggy is leading the categories. Saying "well, these three players could decide the triple crown" means dick all in the argument.
 
2012-10-01 10:23:34 PM

DeWayne Mann: Is Mike Trout a better fielder than Miguel Cabrera?

Is Mike Trout a better baserunning than Miguel Cabrera?


Comparing outfielders to infielders is always a case of wild conjecture. As for base stealing, these days it depends a lot on the manager. The days of "go whenever you want" that Ricky Henderson, Vince Coleman and others are sadly gone, at least for now though I fully expect some manager will go back to it when he finds a suitable player. Without knowing what Detroit's manager is thinking as far as it pertains to steals, we don't live in an era where head to head comparisons don't really work. In the past it worked, these days? Not so much.

Sandor at the Zoo: Or "superior" in the sense of helping further his team's (offensive) goal of scoring the absolute most runs possible?


That's influenced a good deal by where you put someone in the lineup. You have someone who hits for power and average, you have them hitting clean up or fifth perhaps. A hitter who hits just for average is great as a lead off hitter, but if they can put one over the fences or reliably hit doubles, you slide them down a bit.
 
2012-10-01 10:24:04 PM

Nehllah: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.
I'm laughing uncontrollably.
Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.
It even has numbers for DeWayne.
[si.wsj.net image 650x850]


I'm surprised the Braves announcers aren't higher on that list.
 
2012-10-01 10:25:08 PM

great_tigers: Would you rate those stats though (which sounds to be perception based) and 44 more steals be more important than the offensive power that Miggy has. Where would the Tigers be if they had a AAA third baseman at 3rd and Miggy as the DH? Also, value for sacrifice a comfortable stance at first and making the switch to third.



Well, the thing is that Cabrera does have a power advantage, but it's not huge. That's the point- under normal circumstances, Cabrera's power would make the difference. But Trout is also hitting for power, and he has a huge advantage in defense and baserunning. I'm not one usually to say that someone's defense overcomes an offensive advantage between players, but when you're talking about hitters who are as close as Cabrera and Trout are, then the huge advantage Trout has on defense and baserunning has to count for something.
 
2012-10-01 10:25:24 PM

Nehllah: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.

It even has numbers for DeWayne.

[si.wsj.net image 650x850]


Nellah, huh, well if you look at the complete announcing training for A, AA, AAA and home field noise/number of booger pickers in the stands and complicated last names for bullpen catchers then subtract for the number of hot dogs consumed in May, June and September clearly shows that Rod and Mario are the most biased commentators in the history of all of MLB.
 
2012-10-01 10:26:40 PM
Has anyone posted what Trout's numbers would be if he had played the entire season?
 
2012-10-01 10:27:23 PM

bulldg4life: I'm glad we've extended the "his stats don't matter because of other people" to "the team's performance doesn't matter because of other teams"


People keep mentioning Triple Crown; that is predicated on other people's stats. You can't lead the league in one of those categories if someone else is better. Thus, the Triple Crown argument is being boiled down to how Cabrera's competition in those categories are doing.

People keep mentioning "playoffs". The only reason why the Tigers are practically punching their ticket is because the rest of their division isn't as good. The Angels are 3rd in their division, yet have a better record than the Tigers (the presence of two other 90+ win teams in the division makes them 3rd).. So this "go to the playoffs" can be predicated on the other teams in your division. The "most valuable to his team" argument has always been about winning; which is how the "last place teams can't have an MVP" argument is usually framed (if he didn't play for that team, they still would suck and not have that many wins). Trout plays for a team that could potentially win 90 games; Cabrera's team can't win 90.
 
2012-10-01 10:27:35 PM

great_tigers: Nehllah: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.

It even has numbers for DeWayne.

[si.wsj.net image 650x850]

Nellah, huh, well if you look at the complete announcing training for A, AA, AAA and home field noise/number of booger pickers in the stands and complicated last names for bullpen catchers then subtract for the number of hot dogs consumed in May, June and September clearly shows that Rod and Mario are the most biased commentators in the history of all of MLB.


No amount of telling you how much that makes me laugh will actually be as satisfying as my reaction to that was.
 
2012-10-01 10:27:56 PM

bulldg4life: Has anyone posted what Trout's numbers would be if he had played the entire season?


Has anyone answered me if DWAR has any perception influence?
 
2012-10-01 10:28:54 PM

tenton: People keep mentioning Triple Crown; that is predicated on other people's stats. You can't lead the league in one of those categories if someone else is better. Thus, the Triple Crown argument is being boiled down to how Cabrera's competition in those categories are doing.


And it still doesn't diminish Miggy's performance. Bringing it up doesn't mean dick all.
 
2012-10-01 10:28:57 PM

DeWayne Mann: In general, 300 win pitchers tend to be very good. But wins aren't a good way to evaluate pitchers.


I can't think of a single 300 win pitcher who wasn't a damn good pitcher. And one who retired a couple seasons back is not just the best pitcher of his generation but one of the best ever and I don't mean Roger Clemons.

nein: If by "plenty" you mean "negative..."


He's third for field percentage among third baseman. Obviously he's doing something right.
 
2012-10-01 10:29:20 PM
Oh crap i just messed up and clicked refresh too soon so if I fail to reply to a post that you think i should've just let me know. Ok, here goes:

bulldg4life: No. In all my years of watching baseball, I have never felt the need to question someone's stats based on what other people are doing. His stats are his stats. He is performing the best based on those stats. Why do we care what other people are doing as a way to diminish his performance?


Your argument is "He leads in these three stats." That doesn't depend on what other people do?

Hey, some of my argument depends on other people too. It's impossible to not do so. But surely you see that the Triple Crown explicitly depends on what other folks do.

bulldg4life: I'm still not sure where you are going with this. You say that the lower batting average is better because...and I quote..."because he essentially turns some singles into walks & XBH."

That does not make sense in the english language. I'm assuming that you mean the lower batting average is getting on base or some of his hits are for extra bases. Well, his walks aren't getting runners in from second or third while the 50 points on the other guy's batting average are singles that drive in runs.


In general, a walk is worth 80% of a single. Sometimes it's more than that (Leading off, for instance). Sometimes, it's less (man on third, 1 out, bottom of the ninth).

But XBH are worth, you know, a lot more than a single. So, yes, it generally works out that the guy with the lower average provides more value.

bulldg4life: Who's team is going to the playoffs?


Who's team has the better record? Oh, wait, the Rangers & A's are better than the White Sox. CLEARLY BECAUSE OF CABRERA, AMIRIGHT?

WhyteRaven74: Cabrera has no range? Did you miss where someone posted his defensive stats? Seems to have plenty of range.


Did you notice where he was the worst 3B in the league? That's because of his range.

great_tigers: Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.


A small part, but not nearly enough to pretend that perception is responsible for all of the difference.
 
2012-10-01 10:30:29 PM

great_tigers: Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.


There's always going to be some amount of perception involved when an evaluation involves defensive range and baserunning. WAR does try to minimize that by putting pretty much everything in the context of the entire league, but it's obviously not going to be perfect.
 
2012-10-01 10:31:30 PM

violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.


I actually prefer Dan & Jim on the radio for an unbiased view. Sure, they're all homers, but they tell it like it is when things go south. The doubleheader loss a week ago had them disgusted. Infante caught a ton of heat for defensive mistakes that day.
 
2012-10-01 10:31:33 PM

06Wahoo: Isn't it time for a closer to win? 50 saves by Jim Johnson should put him in the discussion.


Except that he is not even the best closer in the AL East. You know who has the lowest ERA EVER for a qualified reliever in a single season? (.060 to .061 for Eckersley in 199, not the Year he won the MVP) (sorry DeWayne Mann but I don't have time to explain ERA+) Fernando Rodney. He also leads all relievers in Save %, WHIP, has more IP, and the highest WAR in the AL. Saves are the Special Olympics medal of baseball stats. You can get one for just showing up.

\The NL Cy Young has some interesting relievers in Chapman and Kimbrel, but even they aren't worth what a guy like Medlen gives you in half a season.
 
2012-10-01 10:31:48 PM

tenton: People keep mentioning Triple Crown; that is predicated on other people's stats. You can't lead the league in one of those categories if someone else is better. Thus, the Triple Crown argument is being boiled down to how Cabrera's competition in those categories are doing.


As opposed to the MVP award, which you can win regardless of how your peers play.
 
2012-10-01 10:33:26 PM

nein: great_tigers: Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.

There's always going to be some amount of perception involved when an evaluation involves defensive range and baserunning. WAR does try to minimize that by putting pretty much everything in the context of the entire league, but it's obviously not going to be perfect.


Thank you, you know what isn't perception? 44 home runs. 137 RBI's. A .328 BA could possibly be perception due to the fact of the way errors are called.

Enough said. Earlier DeWayne was habeling some crazyness about balls that Cabby should get if he had .4 percent less body fat and better knees.

Perception isn't always reality.
 
2012-10-01 10:34:21 PM

DeWayne Mann: But surely you see that the Triple Crown explicitly depends on what other folks do.


But it doesn't diminish his performance and I see no reason to make the argument. Yes, every stat depends on other people. The goddamn standings depend on other people.

It still doesn't make his triple crown less meaningful. And, saying "but what about Josh Hamilton" doesn't mean anything.

DeWayne Mann: Who's team has the better record? Oh, wait, the Rangers & A's are better than the White Sox. CLEARLY BECAUSE OF CABRERA, AMIRIGHT?


Does that change who's going to the playoffs?
 
2012-10-01 10:34:56 PM

DeWayne Mann: The real question is how much Cabrera at 3rd hurts defensively vs Cabrera at DH. And it's much, much more than most people are claiming.


But you also have to consider the options. If Cabrera was at 1st and Prince was DH, then Brandon Farking Inge would still be on 3rd. The question is: do the Tigers gain more net benefits by having Cabrera at 3rd over Inge? I would say yes, especially since Inge's defense started regressing bigtime the past couple years.

DeWayne Mann: Again, it sort of depends on how you evaluate defense. He's been roughly what I expected. Maybe a slightly better arm.


You expected him to play 153 games at 3b? Cause I don't think anyone other than Miguel Cabrera expected that.
 
2012-10-01 10:34:59 PM

WhyteRaven74: Comparing outfielders to infielders is always a case of wild conjecture. As for base stealing, these days it depends a lot on the manager. The days of "go whenever you want" that Ricky Henderson, Vince Coleman and others are sadly gone, at least for now though I fully expect some manager will go back to it when he finds a suitable player. Without knowing what Detroit's manager is thinking as far as it pertains to steals, we don't live in an era where head to head comparisons don't really work. In the past it worked, these days? Not so much.


Let's be clear: baserunning is not just stolen bases. Trout also goes first to third & second to home very, very well.

bulldg4life: Has anyone posted what Trout's numbers would be if he had played the entire season?


Why would they?

great_tigers: Has anyone answered me if DWAR has any perception influence?


I did

WhyteRaven74: I can't think of a single 300 win pitcher who wasn't a damn good pitcher.


Early Wynn would not be a HOFer if not for 300 wynns. HA I MADE A JOKE.

WhyteRaven74: He's third for field percentage among third baseman. Obviously he's doing something right.


Except fielding percentage is a very misleading stat, ESPECIALLY in the case of someone with no real range.

He handles balls hit right at him. Great. He doesn't touch anything else. Those don't affect f%.
 
2012-10-01 10:35:16 PM

ChrisDe: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.

I actually prefer Dan & Jim on the radio for an unbiased view. Sure, they're all homers, but they tell it like it is when things go south. The doubleheader loss a week ago had them disgusted. Infante caught a ton of heat for defensive mistakes that day.


Ever notice when Jim is doing the daily line ups his voice changes lower and slower for the third hitter on each team? I love it when the Belle Tire prize winner's location is announce he always says "Nice area"

Love Thursday afternoons.
 
2012-10-01 10:35:54 PM

great_tigers: nein: great_tigers: Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.

There's always going to be some amount of perception involved when an evaluation involves defensive range and baserunning. WAR does try to minimize that by putting pretty much everything in the context of the entire league, but it's obviously not going to be perfect.

Thank you, you know what isn't perception? 44 home runs. 137 RBI's. A .328 BA could possibly be perception due to the fact of the way errors are called.

Enough said. Earlier DeWayne was habeling some crazyness about balls that Cabby should get if he had .4 percent less body fat and better knees.

Perception isn't always reality.


But what about ankles?! You can't leave ankles out of this discussion.

(But it might be almost time to leave alcohol out of this discussion .. me I mean)
 
2012-10-01 10:36:12 PM

WhyteRaven74: DeWayne Mann: In general, 300 win pitchers tend to be very good. But wins aren't a good way to evaluate pitchers.

I can't think of a single 300 win pitcher who wasn't a damn good pitcher. And one who retired a couple seasons back is not just the best pitcher of his generation but one of the best ever and I don't mean Roger Clemons.


Sure... but you're probably not going to win 300 games if you have a career 90 ERA+, right? Or in the context of "standard" stats, you're not going to win 300 games if your career ERA is 5.50, right?

You win 300 games because you're a great pitcher. You're not necessarily a great pitcher because you won 300 games; there are other factors that make your case for being a great pitcher a lot more convincingly.


nein: If by "plenty" you mean "negative..."

He's third for field percentage among third baseman. Obviously he's doing something right.


Fielding percentage != range. My 92-y.o. grandpa could play 3B and not move an inch, and as long as he fields balls cleanly that are hit directly at him, he'll lead the league in FPct. I'd still rather have Evan Longoria, whose FPct will be lower but who I think you'd have no problem saying has a lot more range.

I've noted that Cabrera is excellent at fielding balls hit to him, and I do believe there is value to that. But when you get to so many fewer balls than your peers at your position, then you start losing your value defensively.
 
2012-10-01 10:36:28 PM

DeWayne Mann: Why would they?


Because I'd be interested to see if Mike Trout would be close to the triple crown.

In Bizarro-world, people are arguing that Mike Trout is going to win the Triple Crown and is the obvious MVP.
 
2012-10-01 10:38:18 PM

bulldg4life: Has anyone posted what Trout's numbers would be if he had played the entire season?


6 more hits, 4 runs and 1 RBI. My computer analysis tells me he would have had a horrible April. His sister was sick, and that was on his mind a lot. Plus, he would have picked up a nasty case of food poisoning at Original Famous Ray's Pizza in New York. Stay away from the calzones.
 
2012-10-01 10:38:39 PM

DeWayne Mann: Did you notice where he was the worst 3B in the league?


His fielding percentage indicates he is not the worst.
 
2012-10-01 10:39:23 PM

ignatius_crumbcake: DeWayne Mann: The real question is how much Cabrera at 3rd hurts defensively vs Cabrera at DH. And it's much, much more than most people are claiming.

But you also have to consider the options. If Cabrera was at 1st and Prince was DH, then Brandon Farking Inge would still be on 3rd. The question is: do the Tigers gain more net benefits by having Cabrera at 3rd over Inge? I would say yes, especially since Inge's defense started regressing bigtime the past couple years.

DeWayne Mann: Again, it sort of depends on how you evaluate defense. He's been roughly what I expected. Maybe a slightly better arm.

You expected him to play 153 games at 3b? Cause I don't think anyone other than Miguel Cabrera expected that.


Even worse, Delmon Young would be in right field instead of Andy Dirks.
 
2012-10-01 10:39:37 PM

great_tigers: nein: great_tigers: Honestly, please let me know if any of these WAR's are based upon perception.

There's always going to be some amount of perception involved when an evaluation involves defensive range and baserunning. WAR does try to minimize that by putting pretty much everything in the context of the entire league, but it's obviously not going to be perfect.

Thank you, you know what isn't perception? 44 home runs. 137 RBI's. A .328 BA could possibly be perception due to the fact of the way errors are called.

Enough said. Earlier DeWayne was habeling some crazyness about balls that Cabby should get if he had .4 percent less body fat and better knees.

Perception isn't always reality.


Roy Halladay is 11-8, whereas Cliff Lee is 6-8. That's not perception. So Halladay must clearly be the better pitcher this year, right?

Your argument's a cop-out. Just because we can't measure range perfectly doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all. Anyone who thinks Cabrera is nearly as good at 3B as Trout is in CF is either not paying attention or lazy.
 
2012-10-01 10:40:19 PM

Nehllah: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.

It even has numbers for DeWayne.

[si.wsj.net image 650x850]


I'm not a Tigers fan (well a little since I lived in Flint) but Mario and Rod are the best. However that graph is seriously flawed. The White Sox do have the worst I've heard, but the Yankees are by far the most biased on top of being utterly awful at times.
 
2012-10-01 10:40:25 PM

great_tigers: Thank you, you know what isn't perception? 44 home runs. 137 RBI's. A .328 BA could possibly be perception due to the fact of the way errors are called.


You know what is perception? The value assigned to those three numbers.
 
2012-10-01 10:40:49 PM

scandalrag: .060 to .061 for Eckersley in 199, not the Year he won the MVP)


I can't check right now, but I thought they were precisely tied: same IP, same ER.

rcantley: As opposed to the MVP award, which you can win regardless of how your peers play.


Sort of, yes. Zoilo Versalles won the MVP without leading in any triple crown category. Or really, anything anyone cares about.

You can't win the Triple Crown that way, though.

bulldg4life: But it doesn't diminish his performance and I see no reason to make the argument. Yes, every stat depends on other people. The goddamn standings depend on other people.

It still doesn't make his triple crown less meaningful. And, saying "but what about Josh Hamilton" doesn't mean anything.


If your argument is "He'll win the triple crown" and offer nothing else, then, yes, it does depend on what Hamilton does.

great_tigers: Earlier DeWayne was habeling some crazyness about balls that Cabby should get if he had .4 percent less body fat and better knees.


Yeah, can you quote that?

ignatius_crumbcake: You expected him to play 153 games at 3b? Cause I don't think anyone other than Miguel Cabrera expected that.


That has little to do with how well he plays. That has to do with how well the Tigers evaluate him.
 
2012-10-01 10:41:20 PM
Austin Jackson looks like Dave Chappelle.
 
2012-10-01 10:41:24 PM

great_tigers: ChrisDe: violentsalvation: Nehllah: Anyone watching FSD. This conversation is relevant to this thread.

I'm laughing uncontrollably.

Yeah it is perfect for this thread. While obviously rooting for Detroit, Mario and Rod are some of the fairest and unbiased commentators I've heard this season.

I actually prefer Dan & Jim on the radio for an unbiased view. Sure, they're all homers, but they tell it like it is when things go south. The doubleheader loss a week ago had them disgusted. Infante caught a ton of heat for defensive mistakes that day.

Ever notice when Jim is doing the daily line ups his voice changes lower and slower for the third hitter on each team? I love it when the Belle Tire prize winner's location is announce he always says "Nice area"

Love Thursday afternoons.


I was not a Jim fan at all years ago, especially when they tried to make him a play-by-play guy. I really like him a lot now.
 
2012-10-01 10:42:15 PM

DeWayne Mann: If your argument is "He'll win the triple crown" and offer nothing else, then, yes, it does depend on what Hamilton does.


My argument is that he is having a fantastic offensive season and his doing so well that he is leading the AL in the three categories that people have judged offensive production for the past 100 years.
 
2012-10-01 10:43:24 PM

bulldg4life: DeWayne Mann: Why would they?

Because I'd be interested to see if Mike Trout would be close to the triple crown.

In Bizarro-world, people are arguing that Mike Trout is going to win the Triple Crown and is the obvious MVP.


He would not be close to the triple crown, as he wouldn't have near enough RBI.

Because he hits leadoff. And because RBI are silly.

WhyteRaven74: DeWayne Mann: Did you notice where he was the worst 3B in the league?

His fielding percentage indicates he is not the worst.


And fielding percentage is worth about as much as RBI.

Sandor at the Zoo: great_tigers: Thank you, you know what isn't perception? 44 home runs. 137 RBI's. A .328 BA could possibly be perception due to the fact of the way errors are called.

You know what is perception? The value assigned to those three numbers.


No no no, that's called TRADITION. Some guys said those three stats mattered 130 years ago, and that's what matters today.
 
2012-10-01 10:43:47 PM

rcantley: tenton: People keep mentioning Triple Crown; that is predicated on other people's stats. You can't lead the league in one of those categories if someone else is better. Thus, the Triple Crown argument is being boiled down to how Cabrera's competition in those categories are doing.

As opposed to the MVP award, which you can win regardless of how your peers play.


But people are going "Triple Crown, auto MVP". So you're putting it in the hands of Josh Hamilton, Edwin Encarnacion & Joe Mauer to decide. It shouldn't be a deciding factor at all, for either player.

No one is saying that Miggy isn't have a great offensive year. He is. But so is Trout. Their offensive numbers are fairly close (especially given their roles on their team in the batting lineup; Trout is supposed to get on base and get into scoring position and score runs; Miggy is supposed to knock people in and be on base for Prince Fielder to knock in). Triple Crown shouldn't have ANY bearing on comparing the two, yet people insist that Miggy should win the MVP if he wins the Triple Crown. Trout's fielding is ridiculously better than Cabrera's that it's not even a contest. And that is something you could see without trying to look at the stats (field pct. being one of the worst stats ever; can't make errors if you can't even get to the ball; many traditionalists even don't pay a whole much attention to it as a viable stat).
 
2012-10-01 10:43:50 PM

Nehllah: You expected him to play 153 games at 3b? Cause I don't think anyone other than Miguel Cabrera expected that.

Even worse, Delmon Young would be in right field instead of Andy Dirks.


No, Leyland totally would have corrected it quickly. I mean, it only took until August for Raburn to "get injured" *nod* *nod* *wink* *wink*.
 
2012-10-01 10:44:10 PM

bulldg4life: that people have judged offensive production for the past 100 years.


So people 100 years ago know more about this than people now? Just like in physics! NEAT!
 
2012-10-01 10:44:38 PM

bulldg4life: DeWayne Mann: If your argument is "He'll win the triple crown" and offer nothing else, then, yes, it does depend on what Hamilton does.

My argument is that he is having a fantastic offensive season and his doing so well that he is leading the AL in the three categories that people have judged offensive production for the past 100 years.


Does the fact that "offensive production" has been judged by those stats for the last 100 years (supposing that's even true) mean that it is therefore correct to judge offensive production by those three stats? Follow up: are BA/HR/RBI the only three stats by which offensive production should be judged?
 
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