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(CBS Sports)   The AL MVP discussion is starting to mirror American political discourse, with angry old traditionalists on the side of Miguel Cabrera and relativist hipster douchebags on the side of Mike Trout. Both sides are bad, so vote for Adrian Beltre   (cbssports.com) divider line 456
    More: Interesting, Miguel Cabrera, MVP, Discussion, al mvp, Rob Parker, cherry-picks, rational arguments, douche bags  
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529 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Oct 2012 at 8:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 07:01:47 PM
Hmm. Guy who's part of a well-oiled offensive machine or a guy who's the reason the team's relevant at all (ESPECIALLY given their first month or so)?

\can join Fred Lynn and Ichiro, who really didn't deserve to be called a "rookie", but whatever.
 
2012-10-01 07:08:24 PM
Keith Law is a hipster?
 
2012-10-01 08:14:00 PM
How about the Red Sox pitching staff? You actually have to make an effort give up 9 runs on 4 HRs in the second inning
 
2012-10-01 08:14:26 PM
Considering I'm a Tigers fan, Cabrera all the way. At least I own up to my homerism.
 
2012-10-01 08:15:38 PM
As I've heard it, guys in uniforms support Cabrera guys in suits like trout.
 
2012-10-01 08:15:40 PM
I see what you tried to do there Fark. Give me a nice juicy Jeter thread and then try & sneak this one past me.

Well, it didn't work.
 
2012-10-01 08:17:32 PM
Trout deserves it. You do not just hit 30/40(or 30/50, by the end of the week) as a rookie. And you don't will your team out of the cellar leading the AL in hitting as a rookie.
 
2012-10-01 08:19:20 PM
I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.
 
2012-10-01 08:25:36 PM
I've never been called a hipster douchebag before. So that's cool

/Trout/Posey: for a better America
 
2012-10-01 08:25:44 PM

Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.


Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?
 
2012-10-01 08:26:26 PM

Rex_Banner: I've never been called a hipster douchebag before. So that's cool


i have, but it was ironic, so I don't know if that counts. It might count double, actually.
 
2012-10-01 08:28:01 PM
What does the acronym stand for again? oh yes, most dingers.
 
2012-10-01 08:29:21 PM

DeWayne Mann: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?


Of course he's a better hitter. He has a higher batting average.
 
2012-10-01 08:29:38 PM
If Cabrera wins the triple crown then he's a lock for the MVP. We can talk about OPS+ and WAR and wRC+ all day but there's no way the baseball writers ignore the triple crown. Ted Williams didn't win the MVP because the media hated Ted Williams.

If Cabby doesn't win the crown, then it's a toss up. Probably an edge to Cabrera. A bigger edge if the Tigers make the playoffs and the Angels don't, which is almost guaranteed now.
 
2012-10-01 08:30:04 PM

thecpt: What does the acronym stand for again? oh yes, most dingers.


I thought it was for "guy in the middle of a pretty good lineup."
 
2012-10-01 08:31:19 PM

Dafatone: DeWayne Mann: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?

Of course he's a better hitter. He has a higher batting average.


Dang it.

ignatius_crumbcake: If Cabrera wins the triple crown then he's a lock for the MVP. We can talk about OPS+ and WAR and wRC+ all day but there's no way the baseball writers ignore the triple crown. Ted Williams didn't win the MVP because the media hated Ted Williams.

If Cabby doesn't win the crown, then it's a toss up. Probably an edge to Cabrera. A bigger edge if the Tigers make the playoffs and the Angels don't, which is almost guaranteed now.


So Josh Hamilton, Edwin Encarnacion & Joe Mauer get to decide who wins MVP? That's a WEIRD voting system.
 
2012-10-01 08:32:06 PM

Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.


You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.
 
2012-10-01 08:32:29 PM
I don't have a dog in the fight but how can it not be Cabrera.
 
2012-10-01 08:33:41 PM
By the way, I highly recommend everyone check out the 1934 AL MVP voting. Barrel of laughs.
 
2012-10-01 08:34:29 PM

Hillbilly Jim: I don't have a dog in the fight but how can it not be Cabrera.


From right before you:

nein: But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.


That's how.
 
2012-10-01 08:35:11 PM

nein: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.


It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.
 
2012-10-01 08:36:17 PM

nein: Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?


It's pretty simple. Back then, the "traditionalists" were the ones saying that all facets of the game mattered. Or they weren't traditionalists, they were just people who hated Ted Williams, since people hated Ted Williams.

Today's "traditionalists" fall into two camps. People who only give the MVP to a playoff team (that isn't Colorado. Sorry, Matt Holliday.) And people who just oppose sabermetrics cause Wah. Meanwhile, the newfangled folks wind up aligned with the "traditionalists" of old. And they're right.
 
2012-10-01 08:36:26 PM

Hillbilly Jim: It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.


Ok, explain the difference. What has Cabrera done that is more valuable than Trout?
 
2012-10-01 08:38:50 PM

DeWayne Mann: I see what you tried to do there Fark. Give me a nice juicy Jeter thread and then try & sneak this one past me.

Well, it didn't work.


i was about to summon you to this thread. not necessary. here we go
 
2012-10-01 08:40:15 PM

Hillbilly Jim: nein: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.

It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.


So most valuable. Who has the highest WAR? That is value, defined.
 
2012-10-01 08:40:53 PM

Hillbilly Jim: nein: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.

It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.



I hate that argument, but let's play- how is a CF who plays tremendous defense, steals 50 bases with terrific baserunning, and hits like Miguel Cabrera, NOT more valuable than someone who hits like Miguel Cabrera but, unfortunately, also fields and runs like Miguel Cabrera?

It's not even like Trout is playing for a last place team. You do realize that the Angels were eliminated from the playoffs only just yesterday, and have a better record than the Tigers despite playing in an exponentially tougher division?
 
2012-10-01 08:41:26 PM

Dafatone: DeWayne Mann: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?

Of course he's a better hitter. He has a higher batting average.


oh, you are going to get it now. using such antiquated statistics like batting average.
 
2012-10-01 08:41:57 PM

DeWayne Mann: So Josh Hamilton, Edwin Encarnacion & Joe Mauer get to decide who wins MVP? That's a WEIRD voting system.


No, cause those guys don't get votes. However, the guys who do get votes aren't going to let the first triple crown in 45 years pass by.

Trout has probably been the better all-around player this year, but the BBWAA has to write articles and sell ad space and the triple crown is too good of a story to pass up.

I'm not saying he should. I'm saying he will (if he wins the TC).
 
2012-10-01 08:42:19 PM

bhcompy: Hillbilly Jim: nein: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.

It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.

So most valuable. Who has the highest WAR? That is value, defined.


WAR. good god. what is good for? absolutely nothing say it again
 
2012-10-01 08:42:23 PM

bhcompy: So most valuable. Who has the highest WAR? That is value, defined.


As much as I agree....I'm fulling willing to accept OTHER definitions of value.

I just don't see any reasonable ones that end with Cabrera on top. You'd basically have to decide that a small subset of games count more than others, and that Cabrera is the reason that the Rangers and As are better than the White Sox, and that RBI are more important than Runs, and....
 
2012-10-01 08:43:51 PM

nein: Hillbilly Jim: nein: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

You're sick of being wrong?

Does anyone else find it ironic that "traditionalists" are supporting Cabrera? After all, wasn't Ted Williams denied the MVP in his Triple Crown Years because he wasn't as good an all-around player as DiMaggio and Gordon?

Seriously, though, if Cabrera and Trout weren't comparable offensively, then this wouldn't be close. But they *are* comparable offensively, and with Trout's tremendous baserunning and fantastic defense, combined with Cabrera's rather lousy defense, it frankly shouldn't even be close- Trout is the MVP.

It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.


I hate that argument, but let's play- how is a CF who plays tremendous defense, steals 50 bases with terrific baserunning, and hits like Miguel Cabrera, NOT more valuable than someone who hits like Miguel Cabrera but, unfortunately, also fields and runs like Miguel Cabrera?

It's not even like Trout is playing for a last place team. You do realize that the Angels were eliminated from the playoffs only just yesterday, and have a better record than the Tigers despite playing in an exponentially tougher division?


Maybe its the added power, or 50 some rbi. Trout also has a better line up behind him.
 
2012-10-01 08:44:18 PM

SlothB77: Dafatone: DeWayne Mann: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?

Of course he's a better hitter. He has a higher batting average.

oh, you are going to get it now. using such antiquated statistics like batting average.


That's actually a joke. See the Jeter thread.

ignatius_crumbcake: No, cause those guys don't get votes. However, the guys who do get votes aren't going to let the first triple crown in 45 years pass by.

Trout has probably been the better all-around player this year, but the BBWAA has to write articles and sell ad space and the triple crown is too good of a story to pass up.

I'm not saying he should. I'm saying he will (if he wins the TC).


But those guys are going to be the reason Cabrera does or doesn't win the triple crown, right? So they really do decide.

Hillbilly Jim: WAR. good god. what is good for? absolutely nothing say it again


Just so we're clear

Trout fans: "Here's a billion reasons why Trout is better."

Cabrera fans: "Here's a line from a song that no one else has ever referenced in this context before."
 
2012-10-01 08:45:49 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hillbilly Jim: It's not best player, it is most valuable. Otherwise Ken Griffey jr and Barry Bonds would have won all of the MVP titles in the 90's.

Ok, explain the difference. What has Cabrera done that is more valuable than Trout?


Led a team that has gotten sub-replacement level production out of 3 of its 9 lineup spots to the playoffs?

I'm a Tigers fan, and I actually think Trout deserves it over Cabrera - but I don't think it's as black and white as either side seems to think. I don't think it would be sad if either won.
 
2012-10-01 08:46:22 PM
Weaver is the man. 20 wins. Average pitcher would have 10.

With 10 fewer wins, Angles would be in Seattle territory.
 
2012-10-01 08:46:56 PM

DeWayne Mann: I see what you tried to do there Fark. Give me a nice juicy Jeter thread and then try & sneak this one past me.

Well, it didn't work.


Too funny
 
2012-10-01 08:47:31 PM

Hillbilly Jim: Maybe its the added power


Cabera: .601 SLG
Trout: .557 in a more pitcher friendly park

Such a big difference!

Hillbilly Jim: 50 some rbi.


Trout's a leadoff hitter. Cabrera hits in the middle of the order. I would expect Cabrera to have more RBI even if I knew nothing about either guy.

Trout has more runs. Are RBI more important than Runs?

Hillbilly Jim: Trout also has a better line up behind him.


Yeah, that Tigers lineup is terrible without Cabrera.
 
2012-10-01 08:47:44 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hillbilly Jim: WAR. good god. what is good for? absolutely nothing say it again

Just so we're clear

Trout fans: "Here's a billion reasons why Trout is better."

Cabrera fans: "Here's a line from a song that no one else has ever referenced in this context before


Oh come on that was a little bit funny. And I'm not a really a Cabrera fan.
 
2012-10-01 08:50:19 PM

rcantley: Led a team that has gotten sub-replacement level production out of 3 of its 9 lineup spots to the playoffs?


The Tigers have a worse record than the Angels, though. Are we really comfortable with saying Cabrera is more valuable because his team is worse? Or because his division is worse?

rcantley: I'm a Tigers fan, and I actually think Trout deserves it over Cabrera - but I don't think it's as black and white as either side seems to think. I don't think it would be sad if either won.


It's not a disaster, no...but it would clearly demonstrate that the writers have no idea what actual value is.

uber humper: Weaver is the man. 20 wins. Average pitcher would have 10.

With 10 fewer wins, Angles would be in Seattle territory.


Guh

UncleStumpy: DeWayne Mann: I see what you tried to do there Fark. Give me a nice juicy Jeter thread and then try & sneak this one past me.

Well, it didn't work.

Too funny


They're tricky like that. Gotta keep an eye out.
 
2012-10-01 08:50:58 PM

Hillbilly Jim: Oh come on that was a little bit funny. And I'm not a really a Cabrera fan.


Honest question: how many times do you think that line has been used in relation to that stat?
 
2012-10-01 08:51:16 PM

nein: You do realize that the Angels were eliminated from the playoffs only just yesterday, and have a better record than the Tigers despite playing in an exponentially tougher division?


Actually they haven't.
Angels are still alive assuming they win out and the Rangers sweep Oakland.
 
2012-10-01 08:51:44 PM

Hillbilly Jim:

Maybe its the added power, or 50 some rbi. Trout also has a better line up behind him.


Well jeez, could the difference in RBI possibly be attributed to the fact that Trout hits leadoff (thus, he has the likes of Maicer Izturis and Vernon Wells hitting in front of him)? And of course he has a better lineup behind him- he hits leadoff, so the best hitters on the team are presumably hitting 3rd and 4th.

But it's not like Cabrera's the only guy in that Detroit lineup. That Prince Fielder guy is pretty good. And it certainly helps your RBI totals when you have Austin Jackson's speed getting on base at a .370 clip.
 
2012-10-01 08:52:05 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hillbilly Jim: Maybe its the added power

Cabera: .601 SLG
Trout: .557 in a more pitcher friendly park

Such a big difference!

Hillbilly Jim: 50 some rbi.

Trout's a leadoff hitter. Cabrera hits in the middle of the order. I would expect Cabrera to have more RBI even if I knew nothing about either guy.

Trout has more runs. Are RBI more important than Runs?

Hillbilly Jim: Trout also has a better line up behind him.

Yeah, that Tigers lineup is terrible without Cabrera.


Cabrera has scored 108 runs not too bad from the 3 hole. He leads his team in runs scored btw.
 
2012-10-01 08:53:15 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hillbilly Jim: Oh come on that was a little bit funny. And I'm not a really a Cabrera fan.

Honest question: how many times do you think that line has been used in relation to that stat?


Since its the internet i'm going with a brazillion.
 
2012-10-01 08:53:19 PM

DeWayne Mann: Trout has more runs. Are RBI more important than Runs?


I don't get this. Or, the opposite of this. I don't get why people like RBI more than runs.

Traditionally, 1500 rbi is a lock for the HoF, unless you're Harold Baines. Why isn't 1500 runs?

Then, Tim Raines would be in.

And the 1500+ runs club is pretty much a who's who of Hall members, plus Johnny Damon and Kenny Lofton.
 
2012-10-01 08:54:06 PM

DeWayne Mann: Nehllah: I'm getting really sick of this conversation. Trout is a good story but even if Miguel doesn't win the triple crown he deserves it.

Why? He's not even a better hitter than Trout.

Do you think his lack of baserunning & defense makes up for his worse offense?


You know I am trying really hard to justify Cabrera as MVP. But even with my "any reasonable metric that favors the Tigers" rule, I am still leaning towards Trout.
 
2012-10-01 08:54:25 PM
Cabrera!
 
2012-10-01 08:54:46 PM

Hillbilly Jim: Cabrera has scored 108 runs not too bad from the 3 hole. He leads his team in runs scored btw.


Would we not expect someone hitting in front of Prince Fielder to score a lot of runs?

Both runs and rbis are stupid stats...but it's really, really hard to argue RBI are more valuable. Trout leads the league in runs despite missing the first month. That's at least as important as Cabrera leading in RBI, yeah?
 
2012-10-01 08:55:03 PM

nein: Hillbilly Jim:

Maybe its the added power, or 50 some rbi. Trout also has a better line up behind him.

Well jeez, could the difference in RBI possibly be attributed to the fact that Trout hits leadoff (thus, he has the likes of Maicer Izturis and Vernon Wells hitting in front of him)? And of course he has a better lineup behind him- he hits leadoff, so the best hitters on the team are presumably hitting 3rd and 4th.

But it's not like Cabrera's the only guy in that Detroit lineup. That Prince Fielder guy is pretty good. And it certainly helps your RBI totals when you have Austin Jackson's speed getting on base at a .370 clip.


Checking the two teams on espn, Detroit has three guys hitting better than 280., the Angles have 7
 
2012-10-01 08:55:34 PM

The Bestest: nein: You do realize that the Angels were eliminated from the playoffs only just yesterday, and have a better record than the Tigers despite playing in an exponentially tougher division?

Actually they haven't.
Angels are still alive assuming they win out and the Rangers sweep Oakland.


Ah, you're right. Well, there goes my Trout for MVP argument, then ;-)
 
2012-10-01 08:57:28 PM

Hillbilly Jim: DeWayne Mann: Hillbilly Jim: Oh come on that was a little bit funny. And I'm not a really a Cabrera fan.

Honest question: how many times do you think that line has been used in relation to that stat?

Since its the internet i'm going with a brazillion.


Roughly, yeah.

Dafatone: I don't get this. Or, the opposite of this. I don't get why people like RBI more than runs.

Traditionally, 1500 rbi is a lock for the HoF, unless you're Harold Baines. Why isn't 1500 runs?

Then, Tim Raines would be in.

And the 1500+ runs club is pretty much a who's who of Hall members, plus Johnny Damon and Kenny Lofton.


I flat out do not know why. People always say things like "THE TEAM WITH THE MOST RUNS WINS" to argue against sabermetric stats, which is true.

But the team with the most RBI occasionally loses. I know for a fact we had such a game this season.

You're the jerk... jerk: You know I am trying really hard to justify Cabrera as MVP. But even with my "any reasonable metric that favors the Tigers" rule, I am still leaning towards Trout.


If they want to give the Hank Aaron to Cabrera, that's fine with me. Trout's only better if you include some park adjustments, and I DON'T expect the writers to do that.

I do, however, expect them to realize that defense & baserunning are sort of important.

But they probably won't.
 
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