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(Mercury News)   Governor Moonbeam swings back to sanity, requires unvaxed students to have an actual doctor's note explaining why their parents hate them   (mercurynews.com) divider line 244
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17581 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Oct 2012 at 4:33 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 05:16:27 PM
FTFA: "... so that people whose religious beliefs prohibit immunizations won't have to get a medical professional's signature."

So, never mind. Nothing will change. Except the percentage of "religious" exemptions will skyrocket.
 
2012-10-01 05:17:18 PM

Felgraf: oliass: If vaccinations work so well, why would you have to worry about non-vaccinated kids contaminating vaccinated kids?

Because there's such a thing as a viral threshold? Because even the vaccines can get overwhelmed?

that's like saying "If your dams and levees work so well, why should you have to worry about me blowing up the hoover dam upstream?"


The what is he point of vaccines that can become overpowered by disease......
 
2012-10-01 05:18:15 PM

jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.


Different argument, but education is one of the best ways to climb the ladder of success.

Hence why public education is under attack. can't have them poors actually pull themselves up that ladder and compete for my money, now can we?
 
2012-10-01 05:18:51 PM

Smelly Pirate Hooker: FTFA: "... so that people whose religious beliefs prohibit immunizations won't have to get a medical professional's signature."


When does Jesus talk about vaccinations?

Or Mohamed, or Thor, or Zeus.
 
2012-10-01 05:19:26 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: common sense is an oxymoron: tenpoundsofcheese: A child needs a note about why they didnt get a vaccination but the child doesnt need a note about getting an abortion.

When getting an abortion results in spontaneous miscarriages among innocent passersby, you'll have a valid comparison. Until then, you're ten pounds of derp in a five-pound bag.

Given your name, I just assume you are trolling since you obviously missed the point



What point is that? All I see is a prime candidate for Dumbass Analogy of the Day.
 
2012-10-01 05:19:50 PM

MrEricSir: Governor Moonbeam is far saner than any of the past few clowns we've elected as governor.


He does do some good stuff. Giving illegals drivers licenses isn't really helpful if you ask me, since driving without insurance is a crime in California. California has too many people as it is. Especially on the road ways.

Brown also veoted another immigration-related measure, the Trust Act. It would have prohibited local law enforcement officers from cooperating with federal authorities to detain suspected illegal immigrants, unless they are charged with a serious or violent felony.

Imagine you have Polly Klaas 2.0 and because law enforcement is prohibited from arresting and holding illegal immigrant Miguel Diaz for a running a red light, Polly Klaas 2.0 gets murdered after the cops let the guy go.
 
2012-10-01 05:21:54 PM

spentshells: Felgraf: oliass: If vaccinations work so well, why would you have to worry about non-vaccinated kids contaminating vaccinated kids?

Because there's such a thing as a viral threshold? Because even the vaccines can get overwhelmed?

that's like saying "If your dams and levees work so well, why should you have to worry about me blowing up the hoover dam upstream?"

The what is he point of vaccines that can become overpowered by disease......


It's about probability. Vaccines will never be 100% effective for everyone, and some are better than others, but they all will reduce your risk of infection or reduce the severity if it occurs.

It's like saying, "if you can die in a car wreck wearing a seat belt, then why bother."
 
2012-10-01 05:22:05 PM

MetryPapi: jigger: A doctor almost didn't get paid. Phew. That was close.

Obviously you are not a doctor. Pediatricians lose money on almost all vaccines. They are required and the Pharm companies set prices. Then the insurance companies only compensate cost of shot. Not the cost of administration, supplies, and storage of shots.
Apparently, doctors are not in it for the money.
Plus, around here, anyone can go the shot bus and get their immunizations free.


Ok, how much do you charge for the doctor's note?
 
2012-10-01 05:23:00 PM

Big Man On Campus: MrEricSir: Governor Moonbeam is far saner than any of the past few clowns we've elected as governor.

Bankruptcy and possible insolvency has a way of sobering the worst of idiots.


That didn't stop a certain brain-dead muscleman we once elected from attempting to push the state debt off into the future with a bizarre shell game involving government property.
 
2012-10-01 05:24:15 PM

Magnanimous_J: TheDumbBlonde: What about undocumented unvaccinated children?

They come from a country that still struggles with horrifying, yet preventable diseases. I doubt there are many anti-vaxxers in families that have actually watched a grandfather die of the plague.


Good point. I live in a Southern Californian city and see many adult immigrants around with withered arms and malformed legs because they did not get vaccinated in their home countries.
 
2012-10-01 05:24:27 PM

Raharu: Smelly Pirate Hooker: FTFA: "... so that people whose religious beliefs prohibit immunizations won't have to get a medical professional's signature."

When does Jesus talk about vaccinations?

Or Mohamed, or Thor, or Zeus.


Something something body is a temple, blah blah only use medicines blessed by clerics or mentioned in your holy text of choice, [name of your deity here] will protect you from all that is evil, if you die its His/Her/Its will, whatever....
 
2012-10-01 05:27:55 PM
Simple, require them to have vax in order to get into the school. And going to school is required my law, so there you have it.
 
2012-10-01 05:29:00 PM

meat0918: jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.

Different argument, but education is one of the best ways to climb the ladder of success.

Hence why public education is under attack. can't have them poors actually pull themselves up that ladder and compete for my money, now can we?


Is public education really under attack? You sure there aren't people simply trying to improve it, but the entrenched interests want to fight any change tooth and nail?
 
2012-10-01 05:29:52 PM

Britney Spear's Speculum: MrEricSir: Governor Moonbeam is far saner than any of the past few clowns we've elected as governor.

He does do some good stuff. Giving illegals drivers licenses isn't really helpful if you ask me, since driving without insurance is a crime in California. California has too many people as it is. Especially on the road ways.

Brown also veoted another immigration-related measure, the Trust Act. It would have prohibited local law enforcement officers from cooperating with federal authorities to detain suspected illegal immigrants, unless they are charged with a serious or violent felony.

Imagine you have Polly Klaas 2.0 and because law enforcement is prohibited from arresting and holding illegal immigrant Miguel Diaz for a running a red light, Polly Klaas 2.0 gets murdered after the cops let the guy go.


s4.hubimg.com

upload.wikimedia.org
Miguel Diaz Richard Allen Davis

img2-1.timeinc.net

img2.timeinc.net
Miguel Diaz John Allen Gardner
 
2012-10-01 05:33:49 PM

MrEricSir: Big Man On Campus: MrEricSir: Governor Moonbeam is far saner than any of the past few clowns we've elected as governor.

Bankruptcy and possible insolvency has a way of sobering the worst of idiots.

That didn't stop a certain brain-dead muscleman we once elected from attempting to push the state debt off into the future with a bizarre shell game involving government property.


Nor did it stop the brain-dead democrat before him from spending tax dollars to pay for consumer electricity bills when we were already running a deficit.
 
2012-10-01 05:35:15 PM
 
2012-10-01 05:35:59 PM
I would have slightly less of a problem with antivaxxers if only:

1. They kept their kids home when they get sick. And that means any illness that can be vaccinated against.
2. They kept themselves home when their kids get sick.
3. They agreed not to sue the living pants off everyone in the vicinity when their child dies of whooping cough or measles or some other easily preventable disease that kills kids.
4. They acknowledged that these diseases still exist and can kill people.

The way the antivax campaign carries on, you'd think that measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, scarlet fever, and all those other fun old diseases were as extinct as smallpox. The tired line "Oh, we don't need to vaccinate our kids because herd immunity" is just wrong. Herd immunity exists BECAUSE of vaccination. Babies still die from whooping cough every year--and I don't buy the line that babies are getting it from adults whose vaccines wore off. The babies are getting it because the babies weren't vaccinated. Once you're an adult, whooping cough doesn't kill you. People stopped getting DPT vaccines and lo and behold, we had a whooping cough epidemic in ten states.

These diseases are real and really killing babies and kids. Wait till polio makes a big resurgence, or endemic measles. No MMR vaccines=measles outbreak. Antivaxxers will have a lot to answer for in a few years when we have paralyzed kids and sterile men wondering "Gee, how come everyone's getting so sick all of a sudden?"
 
2012-10-01 05:36:13 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: But he once again shows his contempt for the people by banning a child from legally having more than 2 parents


Lolwut? I don't think this comes from legislation:

madekreations.files.wordpress.com

/how babby is formed
//2 genomes, one oocyte
 
2012-10-01 05:36:49 PM

spentshells: Felgraf: oliass: If vaccinations work so well, why would you have to worry about non-vaccinated kids contaminating vaccinated kids?

Because there's such a thing as a viral threshold? Because even the vaccines can get overwhelmed?

that's like saying "If your dams and levees work so well, why should you have to worry about me blowing up the hoover dam upstream?"

The what is he point of vaccines that can become overpowered by disease......


Are you farking kidding? It's been explained 5 times already in this thread alone, let alone the hundreds of times it has been explained in every Fark vaccine thread since time immemorial. If you don't understand it by now, you must simply be too stupid to understand it at all.
 
2012-10-01 05:37:27 PM

404 page not found: [I clearly don't understand what the fark I am talking about].jpg


So lets see what happened in the Polly Klaas case shall we?

At the time, Davis was a wanted man: the California Highway Patrol had issued an all points bulletin for a violation of parole for a previous crime; any police officer who encountered him would arrest him on that charge. (The bulletin was broadcast on the CHP channel, which only CHP radios could receive. CHP practice changed after the case; such bulletins are now broadcast on all police channels.)

During the search, police officers encountered Davis in a nearby rural area, where his Ford Pinto was stuck in the mud. Unaware of the APB, the local police released him after calling his driver's license number in to their dispatcher (which only traced his driving record, but not his criminal record). It is believed that he promptly drove to an isolated spot, killed Polly, and buried her in a shallow grave.

On November 30, police arrested Davis for violation of parole during routine patrol and the arresting officer recognized him from police sketches. As his palm print had been found in Klaas's bedroom, he was charged with the crime. Four days later, he led police to Polly's body near Cloverdale. Davis said that he strangled her from behind with a piece of cloth. Although there was no method to scientifically validate this statement, as the body had decayed for two months, it was consistent with the evidence.


So you're ok with barring policing agencies from talking to each other so you can feel better about fulfilling some liberal agenda?  You're ok with making it harder to crack down on sex trafficking of children by illegal immigrants?
 
2012-10-01 05:38:22 PM

trotsky: I love how morons like Bachmann have tried to make this into a "left vs. right issue". I can see some poor kid getting some 19th century disease because his dipshiat parents wanted to "stick it to the libs".

farking morons.


insert darwinLaughingHisfarkingAssOff.jpg
 
2012-10-01 05:38:32 PM

LessO2: "Governor Moonbeam" seems to be doing a better job than "Governor Adulterer."

At least Brown wants to get the financial house in order.


He might have a little bit of trouble with that unless he pulls a Scott Walker.
 
2012-10-01 05:41:05 PM
 
2012-10-01 05:41:51 PM

jigger: meat0918: jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.

Different argument, but education is one of the best ways to climb the ladder of success.

Hence why public education is under attack. can't have them poors actually pull themselves up that ladder and compete for my money, now can we?

Is public education really under attack? You sure there aren't people simply trying to improve it, but the entrenched interests want to fight any change tooth and nail?


Yes.

And I like some of the ideas put forth to improve education, like the way some public schools are teaming up with charter schools in some areas rather than fighting, and making sure the charters are doing more than just taking money. But voucher programs are a clear broadside against public school education and the separation of church and state; and aren't working since many parents treat vouchers as a panacea for their child's education, when it wasn't the school, but the parent's attitude towards education that is the problem.

I'd like to see more focus on skilled trades instead of "OMG!!! You NEED a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering because you love repairing cars!"

But like I said, different subject.
 
2012-10-01 05:42:03 PM

oliass: If vaccinations work so well, why would you have to worry about non-vaccinated kids contaminating vaccinated kids?


In reality, Vaccines work via 2 methods.

First, most common is direct immunity. You get the shot, you don't get the disease. This is the ideal case.

However, vaccination isn't 100%. It might not take, or it might 'fade' quickly. I have an aunt who's immune system can't remember chicken pox for more than a year(she's had it many times). Don't know why. Detecting such cases is prohibitively expensive because you have to do antibody titers to check whether they're present and in sufficient quantities.

Thus, the 2nd method comes into play - 'herd immunity'. It's a real world phenomenon where, once a sufficient percentage of the population is immune, the 'herd' itself is considered overall immune - since the vaccinated won't become carriers, the infection doesn't go systemic and hit most of those not immune. Basically, even if you introduce an infected transmitter the disease tends to burn out with that 'patient 0' and not spread. Basically - if a disease would hit 90% of those not immune in a population that is 10% immune, it might hit 10% of those not immune in a population that's 90% immune.

We've even reduced it to mathematical equations and simulations. You plug all the factors of a disease - transmission methods, ease of infection, durability of the disease (virus or bacterial), natural immunity, and such into the equations and it tells you the percentage you need. A not particularly transmissive disease like HIV might need a lower immune population than a highly contagious one like smallpox.

In general, vaccines are ~90% effective. There are people who can't get them due to medical reasons. There are immune compromised people for whom you don't even bother vaccinating. Balancing this are the naturally immune. You need ~90% immunity for the herd effect to really be effective. As such we're riding the 'danger line' as is, even a 10% non-vaccination rate would substantially weaken the herd immunity and put people like NkThrasher(allergic to whopping cough vaccine) at vastly increased risk.

spentshells: The what is he point of vaccines that can become overpowered by disease......


That's like saying that we shouldn't bother with swimming lessons because people can still drown even if they know how to swim, when the fact that knowing how to swim reduces an individual's chance of death by drowning 90%. Or that there's no sense in putting seatbelts or airbags in a car because somebody can still die in a 75mph collision.

Worse, really, because the more vaccinated people you have, the lower exposures you have, the less likelihood of your immune system being overwhelmed, vaccine or not.

Vaccines work. We managed to eliminate smallpox, and polio is hanging on by a thread. And the smallpox vaccine was relatively nasty and ineffective compared to more modern ones.
 
2012-10-01 05:42:14 PM
 
2012-10-01 05:44:02 PM

jshine: tenpoundsofcheese: But he once again shows his contempt for the people by banning a child from legally having more than 2 parents

Lolwut? I don't think this comes from legislation:


Imagine the mutant possibilities if we could have 2 ovums super-collide, or 2 spermatazoas join forces!! Hockey wouldn't be a fair sport if you could have 4 arms while playing against a bunch of 2-armers...
 
2012-10-01 05:46:17 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: ddam: tenpoundsofcheese: A child needs a note about why they didnt get a vaccination but the child doesnt need a note about getting an abortion.

Do you try to be this stupid every day or do it come naturally?

You either believe it is your body and can do what you want or not. Can't have it both ways.


No no, you're the conservative. You know, the people with the binary thinking on all subjects. You can't have it both ways.

We can pretty much do whatever the fark we want and stay consistent.
 
2012-10-01 05:46:25 PM
Jebus farking crist on a pogo stick. If I ever meet those idiots in that Pen & Teller video I'd have to
strangle at least 3 or 4 of those arsholes (Not Pen or Teller).

Antivaxers and those that support them are child murderers. Plain and simple.
 
2012-10-01 05:46:29 PM

jigger: MetryPapi: jigger: A doctor almost didn't get paid. Phew. That was close.

Obviously you are not a doctor. Pediatricians lose money on almost all vaccines. They are required and the Pharm companies set prices. Then the insurance companies only compensate cost of shot. Not the cost of administration, supplies, and storage of shots.
Apparently, doctors are not in it for the money.
Plus, around here, anyone can go the shot bus and get their immunizations free.

Ok, how much do you charge for the doctor's note?


The note itself? Nothing. Just a part of the child's yearly checkup. Under most insurance plans (and ACA) are free of co pay, and are free for those kids on medicaid. If you bring a form to fill out (camp physical, immunization form for school) outside of the visit, a small fee. My practice does this free of charge, but I don't see it unreasonable to ask a fee to cover labor required to access med file and verify info. Again, no charge at all for Medicaid pts.
 
2012-10-01 05:46:45 PM

mysticcat: FunkOut: Oh, you mean like a severe egg allergy that makes getting vaccines grown in eggs a bit of a problem?

I'm an allergist, so I see this not infrequently. Here's how I handle it: 1) Give the patient the vaccination.

That's it. Very simple.

Multiple studies show that even patients with documented true anaphylaxis to eggs can handle vaccinations. Despite this, many vaccine package inserts continue to say that it shouldn't be done. This is purely a CYA move due to all the litigious twatwaffles trolling for personal injury cases.


I didn't particularly like what it did to my left arm for that entire week. Sure, it didn't kill me but I kind of liked using my arm and moving it and stuff.
 
2012-10-01 05:47:05 PM

Britney Spear's Speculum: 404 page not found: [I clearly don't understand what the fark I am talking about].jpg


So lets see what happened in the Polly Klaas case shall we?

At the time, Davis was a wanted man: the California Highway Patrol had issued an all points bulletin for a violation of parole for a previous crime; any police officer who encountered him would arrest him on that charge. (The bulletin was broadcast on the CHP channel, which only CHP radios could receive. CHP practice changed after the case; such bulletins are now broadcast on all police channels.)

During the search, police officers encountered Davis in a nearby rural area, where his Ford Pinto was stuck in the mud. Unaware of the APB, the local police released him after calling his driver's license number in to their dispatcher (which only traced his driving record, but not his criminal record). It is believed that he promptly drove to an isolated spot, killed Polly, and buried her in a shallow grave.

On November 30, police arrested Davis for violation of parole during routine patrol and the arresting officer recognized him from police sketches. As his palm print had been found in Klaas's bedroom, he was charged with the crime. Four days later, he led police to Polly's body near Cloverdale. Davis said that he strangled her from behind with a piece of cloth. Although there was no method to scientifically validate this statement, as the body had decayed for two months, it was consistent with the evidence.

So you're ok with barring policing agencies from talking to each other so you can feel better about fulfilling some liberal agenda?  You're ok with making it harder to crack down on sex trafficking of children by illegal immigrants?


I generally don't respond to people who try to put words in my mouth, but I suppose I will this time. You are trying to drum up fear of "ILLEGALS!" by citing a case that had nothing to do with immigrants, legal or otherwise. And that's it. If you've got some sort of agenda, since you brought it up, about sex trafficking of children by illegal immigrants, trying citing some of those cases, genius. 

tl;dr - strawman.
 
2012-10-01 05:47:30 PM

mysticcat:
/board certified in allergy and immunology


As an Infectious Diseases doc who has been on these threads for years, let me say that my credentials, literature reviews, links to the CDC website, PubMed links, and so on, have all gotten me nowhere.
 
2012-10-01 05:50:40 PM

jshine: Lolwut? I don't think this comes from legislation:


'Biological parents' are not necessarily the same as 'legal parents'.
 
2012-10-01 05:51:23 PM

jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.


Maybe in your redneck state it's a privilege, but in mine it's considered a right and explicitly stated in the state Constitution: Illinois Constitution, Article X
 
2012-10-01 05:51:30 PM

meat0918: But like I said, different subject.


Well, ok. The subject was that kids don't really have a right to public education. It's like driving on public roads, which is generally called a privilege. There are restrictions on who can attend and the privilege can be revoked for various reasons. People usually get pissy when someone says they have a right to drive on the public roads they're forced to pay for. No! It's a privilege!
 
2012-10-01 05:52:11 PM

lake_huron: mysticcat:
/board certified in allergy and immunology

As an Infectious Diseases doc who has been on these threads for years, let me say that my credentials, literature reviews, links to the CDC website, PubMed links, and so on, have all gotten me nowhere.


Well, your posts are included in those that kept me continually going "Get boosters. Get boosters." until I finally did.

So there is that.

Sadly, it's going to take the child of a famous celebrity getting sick with one of these diseases and being hospitalized, or heaven forbid, die, for the pendulum to swing back towards "get vaccinated".
 
2012-10-01 05:52:54 PM

shroom: jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.

Maybe in your redneck state it's a privilege, but in mine it's considered a right and explicitly stated in the state Constitution: Illinois Constitution, Article X


So Illinois has no restrictions on who can attend?
 
2012-10-01 05:53:02 PM

sabreWulf07: As long as you have a waiver, the measles virus will know it's not permitted to infect your child.


That has to be a legitimate waiver, right?
 
2012-10-01 05:54:11 PM
Wait, wait, wait... Who was it who called this in the CA anti-gay therapy bill from yesterday?
 
2012-10-01 05:55:10 PM

spentshells: Felgraf: oliass: If vaccinations work so well, why would you have to worry about non-vaccinated kids contaminating vaccinated kids?

Because there's such a thing as a viral threshold? Because even the vaccines can get overwhelmed?

that's like saying "If your dams and levees work so well, why should you have to worry about me blowing up the hoover dam upstream?"

The what is he point of vaccines that can become overpowered by disease......


That's like saying "Then what's the point of a Levee/Dam if it could be overcome by a 100 year flood?!?!"

Or "What's the point of giving our soldiers armor if a headshot will still kill them?!"

etc etc.

In other words: Stupid.
 
2012-10-01 05:56:27 PM
On a semi-related note: Crap. I cannot remember when I had my last TDaP. Is there any harm in getting one before the previous one has completely expired?

/Grad school physics is kinda frying portions of my long term memory.
 
2012-10-01 05:56:49 PM

jigger: meat0918: But like I said, different subject.

Well, ok. The subject was that kids don't really have a right to public education. It's like driving on public roads, which is generally called a privilege. There are restrictions on who can attend and the privilege can be revoked for various reasons. People usually get pissy when someone says they have a right to drive on the public roads they're forced to pay for. No! It's a privilege!


Ok, I'm confused.

I stand by the notion that education is a right and a responsibility. How parents choose that education for their children is their right. How it's paid for is up for debate at the moment.

Now, should unvaxed kids be allowed to attend public school? Put me squarely in the camp of no, let their parents pay for private or homeschooling if they choose to not vaccinate.

Although, I've seen the general trend in my area to exactly that, put your unvaccinated kids in with a lot of other unvaxed kids at a private school(one of them in my city has a 3/4 of the students missing one or more) or keep them safe from the big bad world by homeschooling them, where they also hang around other unprotected children in the homeschool meet ups.
 
2012-10-01 06:01:00 PM

jigger: shroom: jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.

Maybe in your redneck state it's a privilege, but in mine it's considered a right and explicitly stated in the state Constitution: Illinois Constitution, Article X

So Illinois has no restrictions on who can attend?


Short answer: No.

Long answer: Basically you're required to be in school at least until you turn 16 (I think). That can be public, private, homeschool, whatever. If you get expelled from regular school, there are alternative schools.
 
2012-10-01 06:01:40 PM

BoxOfBees: First, many of the parents who refused vaccinations for their kids are already more educated than the school officials and lawmakers.


Except that they probably had preconceived notions about vaccinations and tended to visit sites that reaffirmed their notions. Nothing like being educated via Echo Chamber University.


BoxOfBees: Second, many parents who refused vaccinations do so selectively, for the health of their children. Just like you wouldn't give your kid every medication under the son if you thought it was potentially harmful or unnecessary, so some parents treat vaccinations.


Vaccinations can be dangerous. There is a probability of 1 in X that your child will have an adverse reaction. But we still vaccinate because in an unvaccinated population, there is a probability of 1 in Y that your child will be infected with a disease. As long as X is less frequent than Y, we vaccinate. It is a calculated gamble.

Anti-vax people either fail to understand the probabilities or are fully aware and just want to push the responsibility onto others, betting that enough people won't play the system like they are so that they're still protected by herd immunity. Problem is, herd immunity is breaking down. They're gambling and losing. It is highly irresponsible.


BoxOfBees: Third, the difference between the present and times past is that the number of required vaccinations are growing at a high rate. Why? Lack of critical thinking skills on the part of, well, everyone. Also, the power (and by power, I mean money) wielded by drug company lobbyists. You don't even need conspiracy theories to arrive at these conclusions.


Here are the required vaccinations for my state:
diphtheria
hep B
measles
meningococcal
mumps
pertussis
polio
rubella (German measles)
tetanus
varicella (chickenpox)


The majority of those diseases have a mortality rate of at least 10%. Others will shorten your lifespan or will severely degrade the quality of it. Every vaccine listed should be there. Only an idiot would voluntarily skip them.

Even if drug companies are making vast sums of money from the vaccines, sometimes you have to realize that there is a lesser of two evils here. If you have a problem with private companies controlling the manufacture of these vaccines, vote for a candidate who would push for government manufacturing facilities.

I mean, I could be all defiant and anti-corporatist and skip my mumps vaccine, or I can get orchitis and suffer as my balls feel like they're on fire as they atrophy.
 
2012-10-01 06:02:04 PM

meat0918: We all had the flu back the October when swine flu first hit. 105 temp for my oldest that landed him in the ER because we couldn't get the fever down, that was before my wife got the flu, so she was able to drive him while I tried to tend my youngest as best I could while I had it. I peaked at 103.5. My wife at 103. My youngest at 104.

The flu is not some 2 day bout of vomiting. I wanted to die, just to make it stop. I thought I was dying. I got a course of antibiotics too because I started getting better, then wham! Coughing up a bit of bloody sputum, the doc was worried about pneumonia setting in. I missed 9 days of work, including two weekends, so two weeks of being sick.

And then the cough stuck around. I didn't stop coughing until mid January.


This. The flu can be quite horrifying in its effects and duration. It's not just some common cold that gives you a week of runny nose and sore throat.

When I had a flu in February a few years ago, my body temperature wouldn't stay stable until sometime in July, when I could finally stop wearing a thick coat indoors. I've gotten vaccinated since then.
 
2012-10-01 06:05:00 PM

Magnanimous_J: TheDumbBlonde: What about undocumented unvaccinated children?

They come from a country that still struggles with horrifying, yet preventable diseases. I doubt there are many anti-vaxxers in families that have actually watched a grandfather die of the plague.


Wait. There are undocumented children that were born in the US?
 
2012-10-01 06:05:18 PM

shroom: jigger: shroom: jigger: cefm: The appropriate action would have been to stick with the original policy that has been on the books forever: if your little crotch-fruit isn't vaccinated they aren't allowed ot attend public schools. Period.

Go be a dirty hippie (or crazy vaccine-denier) somewhere else.

Public education is not a right. It's a privilege.

Maybe in your redneck state it's a privilege, but in mine it's considered a right and explicitly stated in the state Constitution: Illinois Constitution, Article X

So Illinois has no restrictions on who can attend?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Basically you're required to be in school at least until you turn 16 (I think). That can be public, private, homeschool, whatever. If you get expelled from regular school, there are alternative schools.


So you do not have a right to attend the public school? You can be restricted from attending.

That's the whole point. Seriously, that all it is. Maybe you think it's a simple, stupid point, but I just want people to stop saying that attending public school is a right.

Hey, maybe though you could have a separate public school for the unvaccinated kids. Separate, but equal.
 
2012-10-01 06:06:11 PM

meat0918: Sadly, it's going to take the child of a famous celebrity getting sick with one of these diseases and being hospitalized, or heaven forbid, die, for the pendulum to swing back towards "get vaccinated".


I've managed to make a splash with a few friends of ours who were waffling on being antivaxers by declaring that unless their crotchfruit gets vaccinated against whooping cough, I'm not going to spend time with their kid or them, because they are a declared and intentional risk to my health (as previously declared up thread, I'm allergic to that vaccine, so don't have a choice).

So far I'm 3/3 on that strategy playing a part on getting a kid to get vaccinated. Although I think I may be a bit more convincing because I can't be vaccinated for it and thus am definitively at risk as opposed to the discussions about possibilities of risk etc.
 
2012-10-01 06:14:31 PM

TheDumbBlonde: My middle-school aged children are vaccinated to the hilt. Those boys won't be speading HPV or any other damn thing.


It would be a good idea for boys as well as girls to be vaccinated against HPV, but very few parents are doing that.
 
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