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(CityArts NY)   Professional troll Armond White pens an essay arguing that the best Indiana Jones film is Crystal Skull and the worst is Raiders of the Lost Ark   (cityarts.info) divider line 156
    More: Dumbass, Armond White, Crystal Skull, Raiders, history of cinema, Temple of Doom, Last Crusade, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, John Ford  
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3253 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 01 Oct 2012 at 2:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 06:22:27 PM
The whole motorbike chase through the campus is up there with anything else you'll ever see in the franchise then they go and ruin it with the stupid CGI jungle chase. Damn them!!

/CGI prairie dogs??
 
2012-10-01 06:34:08 PM
What an aging african american hipster pseudo Illuminati film critic might look like

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-01 06:38:47 PM

caddisfly: Armond White writes like a simpleton trying to sound academic and uses parentheticals as crutches for his lack of style. Exhibit 1:

"This exercise was fascinating in 1981 (starting with the signature visual puns on the Paramount logo that always begin the caprice-signalling for the viewer to appreciate movie history) because no one had thought about Serials as a genre for decades until the lame Star Wars revived the concept in 1977. Raiders was livelier and more human than Star Wars (and seemed fresher than The Empire Strikes Back, the best film in that woebegone series) yet over the years Raiders has not aged particularly well. (Indy running ahead of the onslaught of a rolling boulder has been so overexposed that the modernist joke is lost. Now Journey to the Center of the Earth (1959), from which Spielberg stole the joke, proves to have more dramatic context.)"

How is this guy a professional journalist? Who keeps paying him?


This actually reminds me somewhat of spentmiles' shtick. A troll perfectly calibrated to be utterly and bizarrely infuriating.
 
2012-10-01 06:41:00 PM
BTW, I don't know if anyone has ever covered this plot hole in Last Crusade: When they escape from the tomb of the knight beneath Venice, they come up a manhole not 50 yards from the museum. So... was the Guild of Guys with Fezzes in charge of the sewers or something or did they have to kill Rufio Cramdeno and Eduardo Norteno to prevent anyone going down the sewer from discovering the tomb of a bunch of dead crusaders?
 
2012-10-01 06:46:09 PM
I really don't want to defend Armond White, but subby (and pretty much everyone else) didn't read what he wrote. That was not what he said at all. And of most of Armond's trolling crap he puts out, this is actually some of the more sensible. He called The Last Crusade a masterpiece, here, and clearly labelled it the best. He says Raiders is the worst, and gives a halfway decent recent for it (it really does not hold up, though I still think it's better than Crystal Fridge Nuke, obviously). Of course, he always went all Guliani on it, throwing in a 9/11, so who knows.
 
2012-10-01 06:49:13 PM

Fish in a Barrel: caddisfly: Armond White writes like a simpleton trying to sound academic and uses parentheticals as crutches for his lack of style. Exhibit 1:

"This exercise was fascinating in 1981 (starting with the signature visual puns on the Paramount logo that always begin the caprice-signalling for the viewer to appreciate movie history) because no one had thought about Serials as a genre for decades until the lame Star Wars revived the concept in 1977. Raiders was livelier and more human than Star Wars (and seemed fresher than The Empire Strikes Back, the best film in that woebegone series) yet over the years Raiders has not aged particularly well. (Indy running ahead of the onslaught of a rolling boulder has been so overexposed that the modernist joke is lost. Now Journey to the Center of the Earth (1959), from which Spielberg stole the joke, proves to have more dramatic context.)"

How is this guy a professional journalist? Who keeps paying him?

This actually reminds me somewhat of spentmiles' shtick. A troll perfectly calibrated to be utterly and bizarrely infuriating.


Where is spentmiles? There have been a few threads where I thought he had showed up, and alas, it was a lesser effort in a similar style. He really has promise.

Anyway, White is really stepping up his game here. He could have gone with the easy one-two punch of arguing that Crystal Skull and Temple of Doom are the best. Instead he spends his time beating on Raiders, and letting Crystal Skull be better by implication, while making the arguable point that Crusade is the best.

Personally, I really do think the order of quality is the order they were released, but I realize that ToD is maligned on the basis of Wilie Scot alone.

As though that teutonic twat shouldn't have been dispatched post-haste, if they weren't going for an Ilsa/Casablanca vibe.
 
2012-10-01 06:52:31 PM

FitzShivering: I really don't want to defend Armond White, but subby (and pretty much everyone else) didn't read what he wrote. That was not what he said at all. And of most of Armond's trolling crap he puts out, this is actually some of the more sensible. He called The Last Crusade a masterpiece, here, and clearly labelled it the best. He says Raiders is the worst, and gives a halfway decent recent for it (it really does not hold up, though I still think it's better than Crystal Fridge Nuke, obviously). Of course, he always went all Guliani on it, throwing in a 9/11, so who knows.


That would work if his beat down of Raiders wasn't done with this:
"is in The Last Crusade that Spielberg comes to grips with Imperialism and the politics and ethics behind Indy's (the West's) anthropological urge. Manifest colonialism meets its spiritual destiny. Destiny resonates when one revisits the now-disappointing Raiders of the Lost Ark. It simply doesn't move fast enough-either rhythmically or intellectually."

bfolder.ru
 
2012-10-01 06:54:41 PM

Fano: Where is spentmiles?


Scroll down the main page to the pizza/rape thread. He showed up today.
 
2012-10-01 07:18:01 PM
He's right. Schlocky and shallow movies you people only love because of a haze of childish sentiment, and the last one was the best executed vwrsio , and frankly, artistically and lyrically the deepest. Not that we're saying much. Kids today are going to feel EXACTLY the same way about Transformers 2 that you people feel about Empire Strikes Back or Crusade, and for the same reasons.

And that's why White's a true critic and we should respect his work. The moral outrage he inspires over pointing out that the emperor has no clothes is proof enough of his worth.
 
2012-10-01 07:50:11 PM

theflatline: What an aging african american hipster pseudo Illuminati film critic might look like

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 585x400]


Oh, he's got some "U MAD?" face going on there.
 
2012-10-01 07:50:50 PM

moothemagiccow: temple of doom was worse than crystal skull
temple of doom is unwatchable


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

time is not kind to doom.
shortstop is still pretty cool, though.
maybe somebody can do a remix/recut
 
2012-10-01 07:59:22 PM

buntz: It's simply a matter of accepting the premise.

I can't accept the premise of Indiana Jones riding a sub, jumping from a plane, hell, nuking a fridge.
You push the premise too far with seemingly sentiant giant fire ants and swinging monkeys.

The snakes were malicious, they were just there.
The bugs weren't malicious, they were just there.
The rats weren't malicious, they were just there.
The ants attacked like in a horror movie.

I always use James Bond as the "you can only accept the premise" so far.

I buy James Bond. I don't buy James Bond in space.

And I always end every Indiana Jones thread with "Indiana Jones' involvement made everything worse (except for Temple of Doom).
Had he let them have the Ark, it would have melted Hitler and ended the war before it started.
The Nazis would have gone to get the grail, have the place cave in, problem solved.
The Russians didn't need Jones at all. The same thing happened with or without him being there! He served NO purpose in that movie.


That's actually some pretty cool analyses.
 
2012-10-01 08:01:05 PM

Fano: LemSkroob: MoronLessOff: LemSkroob: Indy fans: Is it better to watch the movies in cinematic release order, or in chronological order?

I think you really only need to see Crusade 3rd and Skulls last.

Well, there is one thing that would be a bit out of place for a timeline purist. In Raiders, he reaches for the gun and shoots the swordsman, and then in Temple, he goes for his gun in the same manner (with a smirk on his face) but this time the gun isnt there. Its a pretty nice callback, however, Temple happens before Raiders, so in proper time, the second attempt happens before the first.

Them again, who in fark cares, its all for fun anyway.

This time he knew to be sure to have a gun on hand. It's not Indy's fault we're unstuck in time.


True that is the life lesson that someone in his situation would learn, but the acting/direction of his reaction in the Temple scene was clearly one of "oh shiat, i don't have it this time like i did last time." For the audience, the joke and the scenes, lose all their power shown in the proper timeline.
 
2012-10-01 08:07:26 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: That's actually some pretty cool analyses.


Despite my typos.

* I CAN accept the premise of Indiana Jones riding a sub, jumping from a plane, hell, nuking a fridge.

* The snakes WEREN'T malicious, they were just there.
 
2012-10-01 08:13:34 PM
I wouldn't even know who Armond White was if it weren't for prissy Entertainment-tab-regulars getting a hemorrhoid itch over him.

Whoever keeps submitting links just to biatch about him and call him a troll - take some valium, would you?
 
2012-10-01 08:14:40 PM
1. Raiders
2. Crusade
3. Follies of 1920
4. Mystery of the Blues

This despite the fact all the two hour movie events were just two hour-long episodes tacked together (though Follies came pretty close to one narrative. It might be the exception that proves the rule).

I don't acknowledge the others, save that one did give us the useful term 'refrigerator logic.'

/"...even the sidewalks shine"
//yeah, obscure
 
2012-10-01 08:27:20 PM

Fano: Crusade at least doesn't fark up what every other movie with prequel elements does: Indy's fear of snakes, using the whips, etc at least works.


They even used that bit to explain the scar on Harrison Ford's chin, which I thought was an interesting choice.
 
2012-10-01 08:33:48 PM
In fact, let's get a little further into it here:

1. Raiders
2. Crusade
3. Mummies 2
4. Mummies 3
5. Follies of 1920
6. Mystery of the Blues
7. Romancing the Stone 1
8. That Librarian TV movie with Noah Wylie and Bob Newhart has a fight scene (1)
9. Crystal Skull
10. Cannibal Women and the Avacado Jungle of Death
11. Mummies 1
12. Romancing the Stone 2
13. Librarian 2
 
2012-10-01 08:52:09 PM

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Fano: Crusade at least doesn't fark up what every other movie with prequel elements does: Indy's fear of snakes, using the whips, etc at least works.

They even used that bit to explain the scar on Harrison Ford's chin, which I thought was an interesting choice.


It is an interesting choice, and to me is one of the few times that the explanation from a prequel scene works. Granted, it may tie everything up in too neat a bow (IIRC, the character he fights that gives him the fedora was originally supposed to be Abner Ravenwood. That's just a fridge too far, and is unsettlingly close to Lucas' desire to make every minor character tie back to prequels.)
 
2012-10-01 09:02:20 PM

K.B.O. Winston: I don't acknowledge the others, save that one did give us the useful term 'refrigerator logic.'


No, the term's origin is not related to 'nuking the fridge', a synonym for 'jumping the shark'. It refers to plot holes that you don't notice until after the movie is over, while scouring the fridge for snacks.
 
2012-10-01 09:10:23 PM

Fano: Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Fano: Crusade at least doesn't fark up what every other movie with prequel elements does: Indy's fear of snakes, using the whips, etc at least works.

They even used that bit to explain the scar on Harrison Ford's chin, which I thought was an interesting choice.

It is an interesting choice, and to me is one of the few times that the explanation from a prequel scene works. Granted, it may tie everything up in too neat a bow (IIRC, the character he fights that gives him the fedora was originally supposed to be Abner Ravenwood. That's just a fridge too far, and is unsettlingly close to Lucas' desire to make every minor character tie back to prequels.)


I always figured that WAS Abner Ravenwood that gave him the fedora. Is there evidence that he is someone else? Not to nitpick, but young Indy doesn't even fight Abner's goons, much less Abner himself. He just runs away from them and they give chase rather poorly.
 
2012-10-01 09:12:45 PM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: moothemagiccow: temple of doom was worse than crystal skull
temple of doom is unwatchable

[www.wildsoundmovies.com image 600x400]
Oh it was watchable....enjoyable? no. Watchable? yes...


unlistenable then
 
2012-10-01 09:19:11 PM

Cymbal: Fano: Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: Fano: Crusade at least doesn't fark up what every other movie with prequel elements does: Indy's fear of snakes, using the whips, etc at least works.

They even used that bit to explain the scar on Harrison Ford's chin, which I thought was an interesting choice.

It is an interesting choice, and to me is one of the few times that the explanation from a prequel scene works. Granted, it may tie everything up in too neat a bow (IIRC, the character he fights that gives him the fedora was originally supposed to be Abner Ravenwood. That's just a fridge too far, and is unsettlingly close to Lucas' desire to make every minor character tie back to prequels.)

I always figured that WAS Abner Ravenwood that gave him the fedora. Is there evidence that he is someone else? Not to nitpick, but young Indy doesn't even fight Abner's goons, much less Abner himself. He just runs away from them and they give chase rather poorly.


I think I superimposed the people that died when the boat with the guy in the suit blew up, but at first I was about to say "because Indy killed him getting back the Cross of Coronado, and that opens up another can of worms," but I think you're right. I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.

Of course, the Indy wiki places Ravenwood elsewhere... after all, the Ark was his life's work, he would have been about as interested in the Cross of Coronado was as Henry Jones, Sr. would have been.
 
2012-10-01 09:20:59 PM

Cymbal: I always figured that WAS Abner Ravenwood that gave him the fedora. Is there evidence that he is someone else? Not to nitpick, but young Indy doesn't even fight Abner's goons, much less Abner himself. He just runs away from them and they give chase rather poorly.


Makes sense. "You screwed me over that cross so I'm going to fark your underage daughter."
 
2012-10-01 09:29:52 PM
You know what would have been a great Indiana Jones movie?

National Treasure. It seems pretty clear that who ever wrote it write it AS an Indiana Jones movie and maybe sent it to Lucas/Speilberg and they passed.

But it has the adventurer, his father, wacky sidekick and pretty girl.

Make Sean Bean a Nazi and place it in the 40's, it would have been a fantastic Indiana Jones movie. Even though they never leave the US. It would have been a neat change of pace.
Even, like Crystal Skull, if they made it the 50s and made Sean Bean Russian, still great.

National Treasure was a better Indiana Jones movie than Crystal Skull, if only because I can't watch it without seeing Indiana Jones characters in place of Nicolas Cage!
 
2012-10-01 09:30:55 PM

buntz: You know what would have been a great Indiana Jones movie?

National Treasure. It seems pretty clear that who ever wrote it write it AS an Indiana Jones movie and maybe sent it to Lucas/Speilberg and they passed.

But it has the adventurer, his father, wacky sidekick and pretty girl.

Make Sean Bean a Nazi and place it in the 40's, it would have been a fantastic Indiana Jones movie. Even though they never leave the US. It would have been a neat change of pace.
Even, like Crystal Skull, if they made it the 50s and made Sean Bean Russian, still great.

National Treasure was a better Indiana Jones movie than Crystal Skull, if only because I can't watch it without seeing Indiana Jones characters in place of Nicolas Cage!


The Mummy movies were better Indiana Jones movies
 
2012-10-01 09:49:59 PM
Raiders is the best movie ever so it's obviously the best Indy movie.
 
2012-10-01 09:51:45 PM

COMALite J: [aspectratio.files.wordpress.com image 414x310]
Geez, FARKers! Do I have to do everything around here!?

Steve Zodiac: The ONE true list
1) Raiders of the Lost Ark
2) The Last Crusade
3) Temple of Doom
4) any Adam Sandler Movie
5) Nicolas Cages hair
6) any Pauly Shore movie
7) Belly Button lint
8) Liver
9) ½-year-old milk
10) Root canal
11) E. coli
12) Asteroid impact
13) Romney wins
14) Crystal Skull
15) Star Trek V
16) Supermans III and IV
17) Joel Schumacher Batman movies.

/FTFY


There's nothing wrong with liver, as long as it's cooked properly.
 
2012-10-01 10:05:02 PM

Fano: The Mummy movies were better Indiana Jones movies


I don't think so. National Treasure was more 'reality based' which just a slight bit of "Oh come on!!" thrown in.

I enjoyed the first Mummy for what it was, but it wasn't Indiana Jones. It was too long a sustained "magic"
 
2012-10-01 10:27:36 PM
Apropos of nothing, here's Armond White's official ballot in the 2012 Sight and Sound taken-every-ten-years poll of the best films of all time: http://explore.bfi.org.uk/sightandsoundpolls/2012/voter/783
 
2012-10-01 11:32:47 PM

carnifex2005: The problem with Crusade was that it was a silly parody of Raiders. Even as a high schooler, I could see that it was a paint by numbers affair for Spielberg. Doom was a far more original and better movie.


You chose... poorly...
 
2012-10-01 11:49:21 PM

gunga galunga: caddisfly: Now Journey to the Center of the Earth (1959), from which Spielberg stole the joke, proves to have more dramatic context.)"

There was no such scene in the 1953 version of Journey to the Center of the Earth, Armond.

Wrong yet again.


Trying to be funny here? It was 1959.

And I don't remember any rock and rolling scene in it.

Great movie, though.

Gertrude! Where is Gertrude?
 
2012-10-01 11:56:09 PM
The Mummy (1999) was the third-best Indiana Jones movie, and it didn't even have Indiana Jones in it!

/Also, Rachel Weisz is pretty.
//Well, honestly, so was Brendon Fraser.
 
2012-10-01 11:59:50 PM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: buntz: It's simply a matter of accepting the premise.

I can't accept the premise of Indiana Jones riding a sub, jumping from a plane, hell, nuking a fridge.
You push the premise too far with seemingly sentiant giant fire ants and swinging monkeys.

The snakes were malicious, they were just there.
The bugs weren't malicious, they were just there.
The rats weren't malicious, they were just there.
The ants attacked like in a horror movie.

I always use James Bond as the "you can only accept the premise" so far.

I buy James Bond. I don't buy James Bond in space.

And I always end every Indiana Jones thread with "Indiana Jones' involvement made everything worse (except for Temple of Doom).
Had he let them have the Ark, it would have melted Hitler and ended the war before it started.
The Nazis would have gone to get the grail, have the place cave in, problem solved.
The Russians didn't need Jones at all. The same thing happened with or without him being there! He served NO purpose in that movie.

That's actually some pretty cool analyses.


Except for the fact he did not know its outcome until it happened.
 
2012-10-02 12:00:58 AM

buntz: Fano: The Mummy movies were better Indiana Jones movies

I don't think so. National Treasure was more 'reality based' which just a slight bit of "Oh come on!!" thrown in.

I enjoyed the first Mummy for what it was, but it wasn't Indiana Jones. It was too long a sustained "magic"


I'll step back and reverse myself to agree. The first Mummy had a lot of the fun quotient and the fisticuffs, with the magic being a little bigger.

To say why is part of my condemnation of Crystal Skull. The magic stuff starts almost straight off. In the first 3 Indy movies, the "magic" part is deus ex machina at the end. There is doubt that anything magical at all works.
 
2012-10-02 12:31:29 AM

Fano: I'll step back and reverse myself to agree. The first Mummy had a lot of the fun quotient and the fisticuffs, with the magic being a little bigger.

To say why is part of my condemnation of Crystal Skull. The magic stuff starts almost straight off. In the first 3 Indy movies, the "magic" part is deus ex machina at the end. There is doubt that anything magical at all works.


I liked the mummy movies. You knew what you were getting going into them. And the characters were well done.

In the Indy movies Ark and Crusade were sort of grounded in "reality." The old Nazi stuff fit the serial motif well. Doom was just bad voodoo stuff. Not much "reality" here and Skull was just bad. Bad story, bad acting, just bad. I'll watch Ark and Crusade over and over, Doom if nothing else is on and Skull only if there really really is nothing else on. And I mean nothing worth watching.

Heck, I'll take The big Valley over Skull any day. At least the drama is worth it.

The other night I was watching it as a prelude to sleep. There was a battle between Jim and some other guy. The other guy died. Old lady Barkley kneeled down and said "He's dead, Jim!" Made my night.
 
2012-10-02 12:34:51 AM

Pandora's Litterbox: Apropos of nothing, here's Armond White's official ballot in the 2012 Sight and Sound taken-every-ten-years poll of the best films of all time: http://explore.bfi.org.uk/sightandsoundpolls/2012/voter/783


Anypony here that can't either understand or explain in small words Armond's choices here should never, ever, ever, talk shiat about him as a critic. The man is well within his rights to be called a doyenne of intellectual cinema criticism.
 
2012-10-02 12:44:34 AM

willfullyobscure: Pandora's Litterbox: Apropos of nothing, here's Armond White's official ballot in the 2012 Sight and Sound taken-every-ten-years poll of the best films of all time: http://explore.bfi.org.uk/sightandsoundpolls/2012/voter/783

Anypony here that can't either understand or explain in small words Armond's choices here should never, ever, ever, talk shiat about him as a critic. The man is well within his rights to be called a doyenne of intellectual cinema criticism.


To use small words: No, no he is not. He is a fraud that gets notice by contrarian opinions. If something is good, he hates it. If something is bad, he loves it. That's it. Nice to call him a doyenne, since that is the sort of misused big word he used here. Hint, a doyenne is a female.
 
2012-10-02 01:10:38 AM

Fano: willfullyobscure: Pandora's Litterbox: Apropos of nothing, here's Armond White's official ballot in the 2012 Sight and Sound taken-every-ten-years poll of the best films of all time: http://explore.bfi.org.uk/sightandsoundpolls/2012/voter/783

Anypony here that can't either understand or explain in small words Armond's choices here should never, ever, ever, talk shiat about him as a critic. The man is well within his rights to be called a doyenne of intellectual cinema criticism.

To use small words: No, no he is not. He is a fraud that gets notice by contrarian opinions. If something is good, he hates it. If something is bad, he loves it. That's it. Nice to call him a doyenne, since that is the sort of misused big word he used here. Hint, a doyenne is a female.


So what you're saying, is that you don't really understand the films he's chosen here, or why, or how they have affected cinema.

kay.
 
2012-10-02 01:20:52 AM

willfullyobscure: Anypony


No.
 
2012-10-02 01:23:12 AM
1. Crystal Skull
1. Last Crusade
1. Lost Ark
1. Temple of Doom


I liked them all.
 
2012-10-02 04:17:36 AM
This guy has the class and taste of a velvet painting.
 
2012-10-02 04:44:38 AM
1)Raiders
2)Temple
3)Crusade

I used to think crusade was second but after watching the trilogy, yes trilogy, it doesn't really hold up IMHO. Temple of Doom has its flaws but I was surprised at how much more I liked it as an adult. Had they gotten a less annoying leading lady it could have been on par with raiders.
 
2012-10-02 04:56:48 AM
Crystal Skull doesn't deserve to be mentioned along with the other three. At all. It's an insult.
 
2012-10-02 08:37:51 AM

saturn badger: Except for the fact he did not know its outcome until it happened.


He knew the Ark would melt their faces, which is why he told Marion not to look.
He didn't know about the Grail limitations but it still doesn't change the fact that his presence meant nothing.
Hell, he could have told them where the grail was and then let them one by one choose the wrong cup.
He wasn't positive himself when he drank from it.

And in Skull, he literally did NOTHING, didn't need to know the outcome and honestly didn't need to be there!
Just think, the whole movie could have progressed the same without him in it!
The exact same result would have occurred whether or not he played keep away with the Russians the entire movie!

Only Temple of Doom required him to save the children and steal the stones back. It was the only movie where he did any real good
 
2012-10-02 08:43:56 AM
I saw Crystal Skull in theaters and wanted my money back.
 
2012-10-02 09:45:42 AM

Mincer: The whole motorbike chase through the campus is up there with anything else you'll ever see in the franchise then they go and ruin it with the stupid CGI jungle chase. Damn them!!

/CGI prairie dogs??


I can forgive all the bad in Skulls for the campus chase. Get that greaser!
 
2012-10-02 10:19:37 AM
1. Raiders
2. Last crusade

The other movies shouldn't exist as they are bowl movements in the movie world.
 
2012-10-02 10:29:05 AM

MoronLessOff: Mincer: The whole motorbike chase through the campus is up there with anything else you'll ever see in the franchise then they go and ruin it with the stupid CGI jungle chase. Damn them!!

/CGI prairie dogs??

I can forgive all the bad in Skulls for the campus chase. Get that greaser!


Even Plinkett liked that scene.
 
2012-10-02 11:39:26 AM

ReapTheChaos: 1. Crystal Skull
1. Last Crusade
1. Lost Ark
1. Temple of Doom


I liked them all.


You are a bad person and should feel bad.

/Srsly, so did I, but I saw CS at the midnight show and nodded off so really should see it again
 
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