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(LA Times)   Two competing Christian broadcasting companies have purchased plots overlooking the Mount of Olives in Israel, just in case the King of Kings decides to descend soon. Now THAT is reality TV   (latimes.com) divider line 112
    More: Amusing, Mount of Olives, Orthodox Jewish, Jews in Israel, christian evangelism  
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3944 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Oct 2012 at 10:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-02 12:54:57 AM

phrenicmonkey: frankenSTEEN: A fool and his money...it never ceases to amaze me how much people are willing to sacrifice of themselves and take from others in the name of something they can't even prove exists. Oh well, it's their money, they can throw it away if they wish. Just don't trample the rights of others in doing so.

On a loosely related note, I had the 'coming out' conversation with my born-again mom and her hardcore baptist husband this weekend. I've been deftly avoiding it for years, but they finally cornered me during a discussion about gay rights. Am I gay? No, but in their eyes something much worse : atheist(agn).

Come on! You don't just throw that out there. What happened?


Well, mom was driving so I was trying my darndest not to let let the conversation head in that direction. But they kept insisting that it's OK to treat gays as second class citizens, 'cause you know, the bible. But it was seriously driving me nuts, because they were doing the typical thing, only picking out what *they* want to use and ignoring everything else.

I was kicking their ass on the gay rights thing. I stuck with, "No where does does the bible say, "..and Jesus/God said, 'Thou shalt hate the gays'." I brought it up that it is always a man saying these things, but never God/Jesus directly.

So then mom (I pretty sure because I was kicking their butts, debate-wise) brought up the old 'bible is divinely inspired' line. Then I brought up a couple of inconsistencies in the bible that both can't be true. Then she asked what I believe the bible is (oops, let myself get cornered with that one). I told her it was an interesting collection of stories and parables. So then she concentrates on fighting back tears and not crashing the car.

The husband chimes in about me finding god/Jesus or going to hell and blah blah, the usual Christian false dichotomy BS (i.e. it's my god or hell). So I told him Thor is disappointed and he will never make it into Valhalla. He said, "It's ok, I have the cross on my side." I told him Crom doesn't care about crosses. Yes, I really used Thor and Crom.

*2 seconds stunned silence* - while he tries to figure something out, he is nowhere near as intelligent or educated as I am (neither is mom, though not as bad as him) so these silences happen a lot when it's their 'turn'. For me, I have my rebuttals started before they finish their current statement ~75% of the time - they (and Christians in general) are just too predictable.

Everything they brought up in defense of the Bible I dismantled either through logic, logical conclussions (i.e. literally killing 10's of millions of gays) or facts. I told them there is no verifiable evidence outside the bible that corroborates anything in the bible. Then they were trying desperately to bring up Jocephus. They we like, "Jo-, Joseph nah, Jo-something???" Me, "You mean Jocephus?" Them, "Yeah, yeah, HIM!!!!one!11!" (as if that was the final nail in my coffin).

Me : "You do realize that Josephus was born ~4 decades AFTER Jesus' death right? That everything he would have wrote would have been 2nd hand AT BEST." Then I told them that lots of people wrote about the Iliad, so does that mean everything in the Iliad is real?"
Husband : "Yeah, but (rattles of the usual names) were all real."
Me : "Lot's of characters and events in 'Forrest Gump' are real, does that mean there is a 60-IQ having billionaire running around Louisiana?"
Husband : "So then how did we get here?" with the 'if god did not make us' unspoken, but still loud and clear
Me : "It's called the Miller-Urey experiment." Then I explained it to them.

*more stunned/awkward silence*

Husband : "Yeah, but god is eternal and made all that happen."
Me : "You haven't even proved that god exists, let alone that he is the 'right' one" That was a bit douchey, but I was losing my intelectual patience.
Me : "Well, who then made god?"
Husband : "God doesn't need a maker."
Me : "Then neither does the universe. If you don't have to 'prove' your argument, neither do I."

*more silince*

Mom : "You're too smart for your own good."
Me : fighting *real* hard not to rage-snap, so kept silent.
Mom : You need to read the bi...
Me : "I *have* read it from cover to cover. Old testament twice, new testament 3 times"
Mom : ...ble and ask the holy spirit blah blah
Me : calling on super-human levels of self-control did NOT ask her if she has completely read the bible (I already KNOW she hasn't). So I pretty much let that bit slide unchallenged. Remember, she's driving.

*more uncomfortable silence*

Then they each offered up some Christian writers who are supposed to be the bomb-biggity when it comes to explaining the bible and those writers would make me see blah blah blah

Me : "I've heard many arguments against my points. Every single one of them was based either on logical fallacies, gross misunderstanding/misinterpretation of facts, or just straight up lies/flasehoods."

*end of conversations on this topic*

So yeah, they make an unfounded/unsupported claim, I fully refute it with logic/facts, they change to a new subject without addressing anything I have said. Pretty much the usual M.O. for Christians. I'm somewhat looking forward to whatever they send me so I can eviscerate the BS in it and send it back. They don't realize that I've been atheist (even if I didn't know it yet) since I was a kid. The bible caused waaaay too much cognitive disonance in me for me to accept it as real. I did try very seriously for a few years to read/study it, pray every day etc. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't turn off my brain for long enough for the nonsense to take root. They don't realize how much I have been holding back over the years every time I heard them judge/denigrate someone based on the bible.

I will hold back no more. If they want to bring it up, I will slap it down like Jordan blocking Ewing.
 
2012-10-02 01:25:22 AM

Altitude5280: intelligent comment below: Altitude5280: As long as it doesn't interrupt the Super Bowl. Or Homeland. Or Modern Family. Or the Daily Show.


Covert Affairs is pretty good and along the same lines as Homeland but with less crazy lady who can't handle pressure. Don't forget Real Time, Charlie Rose, Frontline, NOVA, Person of Interest

For sure on Real Time. Would love to see how Maher would cover the great Jesus return.



I just don't see it being a big event, unless a space ship does come down from the clouds. How do you verify some guy is really Jesus? Then would governments and the rich and powerful allow the story to get out? If anything someone that dangerous to the world order would be oppressed and most likely discredited and killed.
 
2012-10-02 01:45:50 AM
"The main thing we want to do is help sponsor what we call Messianic Jews, or Jews that have received Jesus Christ as their Messiah," & "...reach out to Jews and entice them to read the word of God and become what we call a completed Jew."

Because even though they're Christian, they're still Jews. Separate.
 
2012-10-02 04:09:27 AM

Harry Freakstorm: Welcome to God's Holy Return - Live! We're broadcasting live from the holy city of Jerusalem and we're awaiting God's return at any moment. Let's go to the red carpet with Tammy Faye Bakker...

Oh, we're hear at the holy site where we believe God will make his entrance. We assume he'll be arriving by cloud and wearing a flowing, golden robe of his design. As of yet. No word on when he'll arrive, but it should be soon. Back to you.

Well, why we are waiting here is an artist rendition of what it might look like. Notice that we did not include a graven image of the Lord himself. He's represented by this smiley face here.

"It is I, Lord, thy God. I have returned. Things will change. Read you Bible. It is thy's word."

Wow. Can't wait for that to happen. Tammy. Anything?

Nope. Nada.

Well, we'll just wait patiently for the Lord's return. Wouldn't look to good if he showed up and there was no one to welcome him. Hang on. I'm getting a report. This just in. God has returned to the Earth! He has reportedly stepped down from a golden pillar of clouds in Salina, Kansas. Look like the Mormons nailed it. As we speak, millions of Mormons are being recalled to their treasures in Heaven. If, like myself, you petitioned the Mormon Church to remove you from their registry, well, you can expect to stay below and suffer with the other unbelievers.

We don't have a camera in Salina, but the report says that all the faithful have been gathered up and the Holy Lord has broken the seven seals and spilled plague, pestilence and you know, the rest. Satan has announce 100% control of the Earth and it's remaining population.

And in keeping with the sudden change in management, we return you to 24 hours of Three's Company. All the episodes are Terri episodes, by the way. No Chrissy.


Won't they be surprised when She appears in all Her Glory ;)
(I wonder if they will forgive her darker skin too)
 
2012-10-02 10:51:35 AM

frankenSTEEN: "I *have* read it from cover to cover. Old testament twice, new testament 3 times"


A question on gay rights then:

From what I understand, the only place the Bible condemns homosexuality is in Leviticus, right?

If so, then as far as gay rights are concerned one doesn't have to try to repudiate the Bible. One could just point out that if someone doesn't follow Levitical law (like Orthodox Jews do) then they have no business condemning gays on religious grounds.

I've used that argument before - is there something I'm missing? (I heard that Paul's letters were down on the gays, but if I understand correctly those aren't *scripture* per se).

/god hates shrimp
 
2012-10-02 11:09:10 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: frankenSTEEN: "I *have* read it from cover to cover. Old testament twice, new testament 3 times"

A question on gay rights then:

From what I understand, the only place the Bible condemns homosexuality is in Leviticus, right?

If so, then as far as gay rights are concerned one doesn't have to try to repudiate the Bible. One could just point out that if someone doesn't follow Levitical law (like Orthodox Jews do) then they have no business condemning gays on religious grounds.

I've used that argument before - is there something I'm missing? (I heard that Paul's letters were down on the gays, but if I understand correctly those aren't *scripture* per se).

/god hates shrimp


a simple google search shows it is mentioned in some form or other in: Matthew, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Timothy, Titus, and Jude.
 
2012-10-02 02:06:35 PM

Langdon_777: Harry Freakstorm: Welcome to God's Holy Return - Live! We're broadcasting live from the holy city of Jerusalem and we're awaiting God's return at any moment. Let's go to the red carpet with Tammy Faye Bakker...

Oh, we're hear at the holy site where we believe God will make his entrance. We assume he'll be arriving by cloud and wearing a flowing, golden robe of his design. As of yet. No word on when he'll arrive, but it should be soon. Back to you.

Well, why we are waiting here is an artist rendition of what it might look like. Notice that we did not include a graven image of the Lord himself. He's represented by this smiley face here.

"It is I, Lord, thy God. I have returned. Things will change. Read you Bible. It is thy's word."

Wow. Can't wait for that to happen. Tammy. Anything?

Nope. Nada.

Well, we'll just wait patiently for the Lord's return. Wouldn't look to good if he showed up and there was no one to welcome him. Hang on. I'm getting a report. This just in. God has returned to the Earth! He has reportedly stepped down from a golden pillar of clouds in Salina, Kansas. Look like the Mormons nailed it. As we speak, millions of Mormons are being recalled to their treasures in Heaven. If, like myself, you petitioned the Mormon Church to remove you from their registry, well, you can expect to stay below and suffer with the other unbelievers.

We don't have a camera in Salina, but the report says that all the faithful have been gathered up and the Holy Lord has broken the seven seals and spilled plague, pestilence and you know, the rest. Satan has announce 100% control of the Earth and it's remaining population.

And in keeping with the sudden change in management, we return you to 24 hours of Three's Company. All the episodes are Terri episodes, by the way. No Chrissy.

Won't they be surprised when She appears in all Her Glory ;)
(I wonder if they will forgive her darker skin too)


Wanna know how I know that that Bible novel was written by chauvinistic men that disrespect women?
 
2012-10-02 02:23:16 PM
Too bad Eshoo Nazaretha aka Jesus Christ is now a buddhist hotdog aka one with everything, and cannot reincarnate, because he is part of the foundation of light. He no longer exists as a discrete being. Thus he can't return. However, he does have a successor, who is in this world now. However, you will never see him, never hear from him, and when his work is done, you won't even know that he did anything. You will never meet him, nor will I. So sit back and enjoy the ride, because if you blink, you'll miss it.

American Christians, are you arrogant enough that you really think you understand and comprehend the mind of your own savior and your own god? Oh, wait, of course most of you are. Not all of you, just most of you.
 
2012-10-02 03:40:20 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: frankenSTEEN: "I *have* read it from cover to cover. Old testament twice, new testament 3 times"

A question on gay rights then:

From what I understand, the only place the Bible condemns homosexuality is in Leviticus, right?

If so, then as far as gay rights are concerned one doesn't have to try to repudiate the Bible. One could just point out that if someone doesn't follow Levitical law (like Orthodox Jews do) then they have no business condemning gays on religious grounds.

I've used that argument before - is there something I'm missing? (I heard that Paul's letters were down on the gays, but if I understand correctly those aren't *scripture* per se).

/god hates shrimp


I have only ever met 3-5 Christians who do not count Paul's letters and etc to *not* be scripture. (was that like a quadruple negative??) Those few I would not be at all suprised to learn that they are agnostics or atheists by now. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Yes, homosexuality is mentioned several times in the NT, as is the call for their deaths. In at least one place as I understand it (but my interpretation could be wrong) it also calls for the deaths of those that support them. In other words, if you support gay rights you also desrve to die. That is from Romans 1:18-32'ish. This is one of my favorite passages to use, because it forces X-ians to confront the reality of their hate/bigotry. In other words, if they base their bigotry on the bible (OT or NT) they *must* also accept the punishments as defined by the bible. It's always a good time when I get to explain to those non-bible reading (as in not the entire bible) bigots that their 'kind and loving' scripture calls for the deaths of literally 10's of millions of Americans, not to mention the (probably) 100's of millions of gays world-wide. And that number still doesn't include the 100's of millions (I hope) of people who support gay rights. As in, "I hope there are 100's of millions of gay rights supporters."

I also like watching them squirm when I bring up the due process/equal protection clauses from the Constitution/BoR. They squirm like worms on a hot sidealk when I ask them why they are trying to pass laws that will treat millions of Americans as second class citizens. It's funny watching the pinball of cognative disonance ricochet around their minds. That is typically followed by various combinations of deer in the headlights, stammering, WTF?, who-tha-how-tha-what-the, etc. You know, the usual expressions of people who have just now realized the enormity of their own bigotry/stupidity. Then the party ends for me because then they start to rattle of out of contexrt scriptures that (even *if* in context) have absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. They have raised their inpenetrable 'scripture shields' that block anything that looks, acts, or smells like logic. reason, or facts.

For a short form of this particular game, wait til somene brings up the whole "America was founded as a Christian nation" nonsense. Then remind/school them of Art.11 from the Treaty of Tripoli (look it up). The looks of utter confusion, disbelief, and 'how can this be??!?!?!?' are pert-near priceless! It's even better when you get the deniers. Even if you show them the treaty and/or read it to them, they STILL can't get it through their thick skulls. You can just about literally see them mentally sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'LALALAICAN'THEARYOULALALA' Good times, good times.

And if they fall back to the old "hate the sin, love the sinner" BS, ask them how they can reconcile the following statement : I hate people with black skin, but love people of African descent. To paraphrase Pinhead, "Their consternation will be legendary."
 
2012-10-02 03:48:19 PM
A bit of a correction...

I should have said, "...reconcile the following statement : I hate black skin, but love people of African descent."

That is what I use, not the "...people with black skin..." The correct(ed) version is more appropriate/accurate.
 
2012-10-02 06:35:38 PM

frankenSTEEN: Gaseous Anomaly: frankenSTEEN: "I *have* read it from cover to cover. Old testament twice, new testament 3 times"

A question on gay rights then:

From what I understand, the only place the Bible condemns homosexuality is in Leviticus, right?

If so, then as far as gay rights are concerned one doesn't have to try to repudiate the Bible. One could just point out that if someone doesn't follow Levitical law (like Orthodox Jews do) then they have no business condemning gays on religious grounds.

I've used that argument before - is there something I'm missing? (I heard that Paul's letters were down on the gays, but if I understand correctly those aren't *scripture* per se).

/god hates shrimp

I have only ever met 3-5 Christians who do not count Paul's letters and etc to *not* be scripture. (was that like a quadruple negative??) Those few I would not be at all suprised to learn that they are agnostics or atheists by now. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Yes, homosexuality is mentioned several times in the NT, as is the call for their deaths. In at least one place as I understand it (but my interpretation could be wrong) it also calls for the deaths of those that support them. In other words, if you support gay rights you also desrve to die. That is from Romans 1:18-32'ish. This is one of my favorite passages to use, because it forces X-ians to confront the reality of their hate/bigotry. In other words, if they base their bigotry on the bible (OT or NT) they *must* also accept the punishments as defined by the bible. It's always a good time when I get to explain to those non-bible reading (as in not the entire bible) bigots that their 'kind and loving' scripture calls for the deaths of literally 10's of millions of Americans, not to mention the (probably) 100's of millions of gays world-wide. And that number still doesn't include the 100's of millions (I hope) of people who support gay rights. As in, "I hope there are 100's of millions of gay rights supporters."

I also li ...


I have had such shadenfreude moments when the Mormons have come to my door. Usually I do not go out of my way to destroy someones cherished delusions - but when they knock on my door on a Sunday morning and have the misfortune to ask "What is the book you are reading?", I take it as a door being opened to enlighten the needy and I respond "Its a book on theoretical and practical shamanism" - if the keep asking quesitons after that, then they are fair game. I then proceed to listen to them patiently, before I mention the poor kids in the world who died today of hunger and had never heard of the saviour they mention "Do they go to hell?". I then generally bring up a G*d of LOVE and forgiveness, then throw in something like "You do realise that Satan was G*d's most able deputy and I suspect the whole thing is a good cop/bad cop routine?" If a Moron then persists (by this point the youngest member is looking thoughtful in the background and I have to deal with someone twice my age) I then ask have you ever seen the golden discs?

I suspect the reason why it has been a few years since I have had such an intrusion on my Sunday morning is because many young peeps started thinking for themselves and left the 'church'(s - I also trash the Jehovahs).
 
2012-10-02 08:21:49 PM
Itstoearly: But if Christ came back, wouldn't all the employees be raptured? I want an atheist company in there just in case.

That's why they have a 24 hour live RaptureCam set up there.

Tuned in, saw only street lights. About as exciting as watching corn grow.
 
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