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(Newsday)   Derek Jeter's path from Kalamazoo to Cooperstown   (newsday.com) divider line 272
    More: Cool, Derek Jeter, Cooperstown, Kalamazoo, Yankees, Willie Mays, student leader, Central High School, Don Mattingly  
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1303 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Oct 2012 at 11:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 09:03:59 AM
There's no chance of him hitting 4,000, much less the 4,200+ needed to break the record; however we are all watching one of the greatest hitters of all time play.

For any of you "Jeter is on the juice" morons, Paul Molitor(currently ahead of Jeter on the all time hits list) had his best season at age 39.
 
2012-10-01 10:24:26 AM

WTF Indeed: There's no chance of him hitting 4,000, much less the 4,200+ needed to break the record; however we are all watching one of the greatest hitters of all time play.


Indeed; he'll hang it up long before he becomes the joke that Rose was at the end of his career.
 
2012-10-01 10:38:24 AM

ThatGuyGreg: Indeed; he'll hang it up long before he becomes the joke that Rose was at the end of his career.


It's amazing what not having a gambling addiction will do for you.
 
2012-10-01 11:50:40 AM

WTF Indeed: For any of you "Jeter is on the juice" morons


I don't get the Jeter is on Juice people the DH in the American league has proven hitters can be very productive after the rest of their game has gone to crap and they can't field anymore. Hitting requires a great eye and Juice does nothing to enhance that.
 
2012-10-01 11:53:43 AM
Will the Yankees hold onto him until the end of his career?
 
2012-10-01 12:08:37 PM
Fascinating article. You'd think we'd hear more about this guy. Guess he's just one of those under the radar types.

WTF Indeed: ; however we are all watching one of the greatest hitters of all time play.


No we're not.
 
2012-10-01 12:10:56 PM

mikaloyd: Will the Yankees hold onto him until the end of his career?


Jeter won't play for any other team. He's wanted to play for the Yankees his entire life, and he has all the money he'll ever need. He'd sign a 10-year contract for $1 million in Disney dollars if he had to.
 
2012-10-01 12:12:16 PM

SkylineRecords: mikaloyd: Will the Yankees hold onto him until the end of his career?

Jeter won't play for any other team. He's wanted to play for the Yankees his entire life, and he has all the money he'll ever need. He'd sign a 10-year contract for $1 million in Disney dollars if he had to.


Besides, The Yanks have no reason to drop him now. He's still a producer in his 18th season.
 
2012-10-01 12:18:36 PM

DeWayne Mann: No we're not.


Awww, is someone butthurt? Look on the bright side, the Red Sox are the most profitable 90+ loss team ever.
 
2012-10-01 12:22:18 PM
Derek Jeter is from Kalamazoo? Huh.
 
2012-10-01 12:23:04 PM

DeWayne Mann: Fascinating article. You'd think we'd hear more about this guy. Guess he's just one of those under the radar types.

WTF Indeed: ; however we are all watching one of the greatest hitters of all time play.

No we're not.


I guess I'm curious what "greatest hitter" means. I'm willing to allow "gets hits at a high rate" as the definition. So Ichiro's one of the greatest hitters of our time, and a kind of good offensive player.
 
2012-10-01 12:37:18 PM

WTF Indeed: For any of you "Jeter is on the juice" morons


Are there honestly a sizable amount of "Jeter is on the juice" morons? I thought Skip Bayless just "insinuated" something that he backtracked from just as quickly.
 
2012-10-01 12:37:28 PM

mikaloyd: Will the Yankees hold onto him until the end of his career?


He will retire a Yankee
 
2012-10-01 12:38:39 PM

WTF Indeed: DeWayne Mann: No we're not.

Awww, is someone butthurt? Look on the bright side, the Red Sox are the most profitable 90+ loss team ever.


Yes, this is clearly my Red Sox fan side talking. You sure called that right!

Dafatone: I guess I'm curious what "greatest hitter" means. I'm willing to allow "gets hits at a high rate" as the definition. So Ichiro's one of the greatest hitters of our time, and a kind of good offensive player.


Even if it is, Jeter's still not that high up there. He's tied for 79th all time in batting average, hanging out with Jack Fournier. Shoot, let's try to overrate Jeter as much as humanly possible and look at H/PA instead of H/AB. No one in their right mind would actually care about H/PA so I don't have an exact ranking here, but he's still behind, for instance, George Van Haltren, a CF/SS/P.

No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits. It's funny: most of the time, people love to deride players who look like stat compilers, but when Jeter does it, HE'S THE GREATEST.
 
2012-10-01 12:39:12 PM

WTF Indeed: however we are all watching one of the greatest hitters of all time play.


Beyond that, he'll be considered among the greatest of all Yankees. Not in the top few, but in that other group of names.

As a Yankee fan (since 1976), that feels more important than records and stats. I'm really privileged to have watched Jeter's career as it happened.
 
2012-10-01 12:40:46 PM

Killer Cars: WTF Indeed: For any of you "Jeter is on the juice" morons

Are there honestly a sizable amount of "Jeter is on the juice" morons? I thought Skip Bayless just "insinuated" something that he backtracked from just as quickly.


Does it count if someone assumes every player juices?

(Also, let me just apologize in advance. I think I've caught them all so far, but thanks to a lack of sleep, I keep randomly messing up words. I don't mean spelling them wrong, I mean typing the wrong word entirely. So if I say something and there's a word that doesn't make sense, that's probably why.)
 
2012-10-01 12:45:24 PM

DeWayne Mann:

(Also, let me just apologize in advance. I think I've caught them all so far, but thanks to a lack of sleep, I keep randomly messing up words. I don't mean spelling them wrong, I mean typing the wrong word entirely. So if I say something and there's a word that doesn't make sense, that's probably why.)


Maybe you should come back and present your snark once you're fully awake.
 
2012-10-01 12:46:50 PM

Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann:

(Also, let me just apologize in advance. I think I've caught them all so far, but thanks to a lack of sleep, I keep randomly messing up words. I don't mean spelling them wrong, I mean typing the wrong word entirely. So if I say something and there's a word that doesn't make sense, that's probably why.)

Maybe you should come back and present your snark once you're fully awake.


Half asleep, I can still present a more coherent argument against Jeter being one of the greatest hitters of all time than anyone can argue for it.
 
2012-10-01 12:47:23 PM

DeWayne Mann: Even if it is, Jeter's still not that high up there. He's tied for 79th all time in batting average, hanging out with Jack Fournier. Shoot, let's try to overrate Jeter as much as humanly possible and look at H/PA instead of H/AB. No one in their right mind would actually care about H/PA so I don't have an exact ranking here, but he's still behind, for instance, George Van Haltren, a CF/SS/P.

No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits. It's funny: most of the time, people love to deride players who look like stat compilers, but when Jeter does it, HE'S THE GREATEST.


OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!
 
2012-10-01 12:51:44 PM

Killer Cars: WTF Indeed: For any of you "Jeter is on the juice" morons

Are there honestly a sizable amount of "Jeter is on the juice" morons? I thought Skip Bayless just "insinuated" something that he backtracked from just as quickly.


I just assumed that sharing a locker room with Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Randy Johnson, et al, Jeter probably benefited from 'roids the way smokers' non-smoking friends contract lung cancer.
 
2012-10-01 12:52:50 PM

WTF Indeed: OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!


So 79th all-time in batting average qualifies as "all-time great" for you?

If I earn $10,000 a year for 100 years, and you earn $75,000 a year and retire after 12, am I a better moneymaker than you?
 
2012-10-01 12:53:32 PM

DeWayne Mann:

Half asleep, I can still present a more coherent argument against Jeter being one of the greatest hitters of all time than anyone can argue for it.


True, but the patented DeWayne Mann approach is not simply coherence... there's that added touch of insulting and demeaning the other person. In other words, please don't half-ass it when you're being an ass. I come into these threads for the whole ass.
 
2012-10-01 12:55:17 PM

Uncle Pooky: True, but the patented DeWayne Mann approach is not simply coherence... there's that added touch of insulting and demeaning the other person. In other words, please don't half-ass it when you're being an ass. I come into these threads for the whole ass.


Look at it this way: now my insults & demeaning might come across somewhat daliesque.

I don't even know if that's the right word to use! This is fun!
 
2012-10-01 12:56:38 PM

WTF Indeed: DeWayne Mann: Even if it is, Jeter's still not that high up there. He's tied for 79th all time in batting average, hanging out with Jack Fournier. Shoot, let's try to overrate Jeter as much as humanly possible and look at H/PA instead of H/AB. No one in their right mind would actually care about H/PA so I don't have an exact ranking here, but he's still behind, for instance, George Van Haltren, a CF/SS/P.

No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits. It's funny: most of the time, people love to deride players who look like stat compilers, but when Jeter does it, HE'S THE GREATEST.

OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!


Nah...let's just compare him to people who played the game 100 years ago when most pitchers pitch selection was fast, faster and fastest. Then maybe copy & paste some stats from another website and claim there can be no argument because math.
 
2012-10-01 12:59:48 PM

DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!

So 79th all-time in batting average qualifies as "all-time great" for you?


To be fair, it should be taken into account how many people are on that list. I believe it's something like 15,000+. So, 79th is pretty damn good all things considered.
 
2012-10-01 01:02:34 PM

Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!

So 79th all-time in batting average qualifies as "all-time great" for you?

To be fair, it should be taken into account how many people are on that list. I believe it's something like 15,000+. So, 79th is pretty damn good all things considered.


Also, I should mention that I'm not trying to argue that Jeter is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Just that there are stronger arguments to make than mocking being 79th out of 15,000+.
 
2012-10-01 01:03:57 PM

JohnnyCanuck: Nah...let's just compare him to people who played the game 100 years ago when most pitchers pitch selection was fast, faster and fastest.


So "all time greatest" can only include people from the last few years? BRILLIANT!
 
2012-10-01 01:05:34 PM

Uncle Pooky: Uncle Pooky: DeWayne Mann: WTF Indeed: OMG! It's like someone who is really, really good at being a hitter would compile a sh*t ton of hitting stats! Quick, someone call the police!

So 79th all-time in batting average qualifies as "all-time great" for you?

To be fair, it should be taken into account how many people are on that list. I believe it's something like 15,000+. So, 79th is pretty damn good all things considered.

Also, I should mention that I'm not trying to argue that Jeter is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Just that there are stronger arguments to make than mocking being 79th out of 15,000+.


And IF 79th best in batting average is what he meant by "one of the greatest hitters of all time", I withdraw my objection. I still think it's a stupid thing to say, and it grossly overrates BA, but it's a matter of semantics at that point, and I don't feel like arguing those.
 
2012-10-01 01:05:57 PM

DeWayne Mann: No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits.


No, no, you're forgetting: he's Captain Clutch. No one was, is, or will be better at being Mr.-Clutchy-McClutcherson than he will be. Most people who are considered "clutch" only do it occasionally; OTOH, probably 85% of Jeter'shiats have all been super-clutch and come in the most desperate game situations for the Yankees. That is why he's one of the greatest.

/And yes, I have heard similar serious arguments to this, sadly enough
 
2012-10-01 01:07:25 PM

Joe_diGriz: DeWayne Mann: No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits.

No, no, you're forgetting: he's Captain Clutch. No one was, is, or will be better at being Mr.-Clutchy-McClutcherson than he will be. Most people who are considered "clutch" only do it occasionally; OTOH, probably 85% of Jeter'shiats have all been super-clutch and come in the most desperate game situations for the Yankees. That is why he's one of the greatest.

/And yes, I have heard similar serious arguments to this, sadly enough


The funny thing is, it's easier to argue that A-rod is clutch than it is to argue that Jeter is.
 
2012-10-01 01:08:44 PM

DeWayne Mann: So 79th all-time in batting average qualifies as "all-time great" for you?


Do you know who else were really terrible hitters?

Willie Mays - .302 career
Yas- .285
Cal Ripken - .276
Eddie Murray - .287
Paul Molitor - .306
George Brett - .305
Hank Aaron - .305
Pete Rose - .303

All those guys really sucked. I mean horribly sucked. Those are also 8 of the Top 16 leaders in career hits. They all have a lower career batting average than Derek Jeter. All played at least 21 seasons to Jeter's 18 (and counting).

So let's assume Jeter plays 21 seasons which means three more seasons and gets exactly 150 hits per season, drastically below his 162 average of 207. That would give him 3,751 hits which is good for fourth all-time. Give him 22 more hits over three season and he's third all-time in hits, with a career average that would still more than likely be higher than those players listed above. So tell me how the phrase "Jeter is one of the greatest hitters of all time" is utterly wrong?
 
2012-10-01 01:09:07 PM
I've always hated the yanks, yet I've always been a huge Derek jeter fan
 
2012-10-01 01:13:19 PM
Not a Yankee fan but do respect Jeter. He doesn't have the best stats but is at or near the top of the clutch plays category.

The flip to Posada to get Giambi out at the plate is classic.
 
2012-10-01 01:13:27 PM

DeWayne Mann: JohnnyCanuck: Nah...let's just compare him to people who played the game 100 years ago when most pitchers pitch selection was fast, faster and fastest.

So "all time greatest" can only include people from the last few years? BRILLIANT!


"BRILLIANT", yes.

"All-Time Greatest" is completely subjective. It is an argument that can't be "solved". Even within the confines of a specific era there is no way to determine, quantitatively, who is the "best".

Also, comparing the defense of a guy who played without a glove to someone who did is not a fair comparison. In the same way that comparing a hitter from the dead ball era against one from the steroid era is not a valid one.
 
2012-10-01 01:14:20 PM
I don't think Derek Jeter's head will be frozen after his demise. His penis though might.
 
2012-10-01 01:16:09 PM
I just respect the guy for consistency in a sport thats known for hot and cold streaks over a two year career.
 
2012-10-01 01:17:11 PM

WTF Indeed: So tell me how the phrase "Jeter is one of the greatest hitters of all time" is utterly wrong?


Your argument REALLY IS "he has a lot of hits."

Jesus Christ, dude.

Here I was, giving you the benefit of the doubt, but, no. You actually think "lots of hits" == "one of the greatest of all time."

Never mind that they're mostly singles (.135 ISO, something like 1200th best alltime). Never mind that he also creates a lot of outs (19th most all time).

Nope. He played for a long time (which is commendable, but has little to do with how great of a hitter he is) with a decent batting average and a low walk rate. THEREFORE, he is one of the best.

You realize that's what you're saying, right?
 
2012-10-01 01:18:16 PM

JohnnyCanuck: "All-Time Greatest" is completely subjective. It is an argument that can't be "solved".


I ask again

DeWayne Mann: If I earn $10,000 a year for 100 years, and you earn $75,000 a year and retire after 12, am I a better moneymaker than you?


That's a solvable question, right?
 
2012-10-01 01:18:24 PM

DeWayne Mann: Dafatone: I guess I'm curious what "greatest hitter" means. I'm willing to allow "gets hits at a high rate" as the definition. So Ichiro's one of the greatest hitters of our time, and a kind of good offensive player.

Even if it is, Jeter's still not that high up there. He's tied for 79th all time in batting average, hanging out with Jack Fournier. Shoot, let's try to overrate Jeter as much as humanly possible and look at H/PA instead of H/AB. No one in their right mind would actually care about H/PA so I don't have an exact ranking here, but he's still behind, for instance, George Van Haltren, a CF/SS/P.

No, much like Pete Rose, the only possible argument that ends with Jeter near the top is just number of hits. It's funny: most of the time, people love to deride players who look like stat compilers, but when Jeter does it, HE'S THE GREATEST.


I do think you gotta weigh this against a player's era, though. Batting Average+. How many contemporaries hit for a better average?

Helton (thanks, elevation). Ichiro, Piazza maybe? A couple others?

Jeter does stand out compared to players of the past 20 years. In batting average. Which is pretty useless.

/I don't think Jeter's nearly as overrated as people say, though. 382 career obp is pretty great for a SS.
 
2012-10-01 01:24:42 PM

Dafatone: I do think you gotta weigh this against a player's era, though. Batting Average+. How many contemporaries hit for a better average?

Helton (thanks, elevation). Ichiro, Piazza maybe? A couple others?

Jeter does stand out compared to players of the past 20 years. In batting average. Which is pretty useless.

/I don't think Jeter's nearly as overrated as people say, though. 382 career obp is pretty great for a SS.


Depends on how you want to define contemporary. He's 9th on the active list, though that obviously includes a few guys who have only been playing a few years.

But Pujols & Vlad are both clearly better even if we only care about BA (and even more if we care about what actually matters), and Manny Ramirez is right there as well.

And yes, Jeter is a pretty good hitting SS. Top 5, probably. But that's not the issue.
 
2012-10-01 01:27:00 PM

DeWayne Mann: JohnnyCanuck: "All-Time Greatest" is completely subjective. It is an argument that can't be "solved".

I ask again

DeWayne Mann: If I earn $10,000 a year for 100 years, and you earn $75,000 a year and retire after 12, am I a better moneymaker than you?

That's a solvable question, right?


Depends on how you approach it. It is solvable in establishing a finite number and which is higher. However, if you factor in things such as interest and investment availability it's not a cut & dry answer. If you're earning only 10k to my 75k one might think I would be in a better situation, financially and intellectually, to out earn your 100 years shortly after I retire.
 
2012-10-01 01:29:57 PM

DeWayne Mann: Manny Ramirez*


Not nitpicking. Just wondering how thats going to go down.
 
2012-10-01 01:30:35 PM

JohnnyCanuck: Depends on how you approach it. It is solvable in establishing a finite number and which is higher. However, if you factor in things such as interest and investment availability it's not a cut & dry answer. If you're earning only 10k to my 75k one might think I would be in a better situation, financially and intellectually, to out earn your 100 years shortly after I retire.


And so the correct answer would not be "I made $100,000 more than you so I win."

Fascinating.

And yet, it seems perfectly ok to say "Well, Jeter had more hits than a lot of people."
 
2012-10-01 01:31:22 PM

thecpt: DeWayne Mann: Manny Ramirez*

Not nitpicking. Just wondering how thats going to go down.


As with most things, I assume it'll go down in the stupidest way possible.
 
2012-10-01 01:32:04 PM

DeWayne Mann: You realize that's what you're saying, right?


That a hit is still a hit, even it's only a single, and that I said "one of the greatest hitters of all time" means he's not the best hitter of all time, nor is he best all-around player, nor is he the best sabermetrics player of all time, nor the best at OBP, nor not making outs. He's the one of the best HITTERS.
 
2012-10-01 01:32:27 PM
/I don't think Jeter's nearly as overrated as people say, though. 382 career obp is pretty great for a SS.

Thank you. He's a shortstop! A position noted for great field no hit players. You can easily make an argument that he is in the top 5 of greatest hitting shortstops of all time
 
2012-10-01 01:36:18 PM

WTF Indeed: He's the one of the best HITTERS.


Ok, here's your chance to get me to shut up. This is a rarity!

Player A goes 4-4 with 4 singles.

Player B goes 3-3 with 3 HRs and a walk.

If you say "Player A is a better hitter than Player B" I'll leave you alone for the rest of the thread. That exact quote. "Player A is a better hitter than Player B."

gridlocksammy: Thank you. He's a shortstop! A position noted for great field no hit players. You can easily make an argument that he is in the top 5 of greatest hitting shortstops of all time


And if that's what we were talking about from the start, this would be a different thread.
 
2012-10-01 01:37:13 PM

SkylineRecords: mikaloyd: Will the Yankees hold onto him until the end of his career?

Jeter won't play for any other team. He's wanted to play for the Yankees his entire life, and he has all the money he'll ever need. He'd sign a 10-year contract for $1 million in Disney dollars if he had to.


You seem to have forgotten that Jeter's last contract negotiation proved to be much more delicate and touch-and-go than anyone expected. Yes, he would very much like to play his whole career for the Yankees, but like everyone he has a price.
 
2012-10-01 01:39:44 PM

DeWayne Mann: JohnnyCanuck: Depends on how you approach it. It is solvable in establishing a finite number and which is higher. However, if you factor in things such as interest and investment availability it's not a cut & dry answer. If you're earning only 10k to my 75k one might think I would be in a better situation, financially and intellectually, to out earn your 100 years shortly after I retire.

And so the correct answer would not be "I made $100,000 more than you so I win."

Fascinating.

And yet, it seems perfectly ok to say "Well, Jeter had more hits than a lot of people."


I don't think anyone is simply saying that. The full spectrum of his career dictates he is among the games greats. Does it help that he plays in NY? You bet it does. Nonetheless, he will be a 1st ballot HoF inductee and deservedly so. I'm not saying he's the best ever because:
A- In my opinion, he is not
B- There is no way to determine such an accolade

"Among the games greats" is really all that can be said with any certainty whatsoever.
Longevity and success go a long way in sport.
 
2012-10-01 01:41:22 PM

JohnnyCanuck: I don't think anyone is simply saying that.


Uh, reread the thread. I mean, shoot, read this paragraph:

WTF Indeed: So let's assume Jeter plays 21 seasons which means three more seasons and gets exactly 150 hits per season, drastically below his 162 average of 207. That would give him 3,751 hits which is good for fourth all-time. Give him 22 more hits over three season and he's third all-time in hits, with a career average that would still more than likely be higher than those players listed above. So tell me how the phrase "Jeter is one of the greatest hitters of all time" is utterly wrong?

 
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