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(Mirror.co.uk)   The final ride of the Ponds in the TARDIS is finally here and the Weeping Angels are back for one more go in the mid-season finale of Doctor Who, The Angels Take Manhattan. (FYI: Muppets will not be involved in the taking of Manhattan)   (mirror.co.uk) divider line 261
    More: Spiffy, Doctor Who, Manhattan, film series, ponds, Christmas episode, phone booth  
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1466 clicks; posted to Geek » on 29 Sep 2012 at 12:00 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-01 02:30:34 AM

HopScotchNSoda: So what was that Rolls Royce data-plate / makeshift mirror from?

It reads "Type FD 12 MK V11", "Rolls Royce Motors - Crewe England", and it has a space for a NATO stock number

The British Admiralty did try out an FD6 Mk 7 engine back in the 1960s (the evaluation report was issued in July 1963, 4 months before DW premiered. It was designed by Fodden, but Rolls could have built them under license. Alvis had a car model FD 12 before WWII (therefore even longer before NATO). Bessie was a Ford, so that's not it, either. Whatever it is, it was presumably significant.


I freeze-framed on that myself. Surprised you're the only one in here wondering. I want to say, "Way too deliberate to have been insignificant." But I also tend to think Moffat like farking with us.
 
2012-10-01 07:08:19 AM

FormlessOne: Given the over-the-top silliness and tepid writing as of late, I'm afraid of what Moffat considers "balls out."


this. Most of this season has been shiat, emotional goodbye to a character I didn`t like. Good riddance.

Not you rory, or your dad, both of you were great.
 
2012-10-01 07:39:40 AM
Just watched it on DVR, late for work cos I had to wait for my tears to dry
 
2012-10-01 08:58:22 AM

demonfaerie: Whats wrong with Smith? He is an amazing Doctor imo. I don't think there is a bad Doctor, but sometimes the writing can ruin them. The last specials with Tennant made me annoyed. At least with Smith, imo he is very good at portraying drastic emotions and tantrums of an old man and child. That is how the Doctor is, he can be a kid inside exploring time and space, but from his age he can be get off my lawn cranky old man. Smith portrays that perfectly.


Smith's doctor is a very angry doctor. I think all the playfulness can be misread. But to me/my family it all seems like over compensation "i'm happy, everything's fine, i've got it all in hand" when shiat is really bad for him inside himself.

His doctor is dealing with the cumulative effects (mostly for ill he thinks, see the "more guilt" scene in a previous episode) he's had on his previous companions. And he's not dealing very well.
 
2012-10-01 11:14:07 AM

thisone: demonfaerie: Whats wrong with Smith? He is an amazing Doctor imo. I don't think there is a bad Doctor, but sometimes the writing can ruin them. The last specials with Tennant made me annoyed. At least with Smith, imo he is very good at portraying drastic emotions and tantrums of an old man and child. That is how the Doctor is, he can be a kid inside exploring time and space, but from his age he can be get off my lawn cranky old man. Smith portrays that perfectly.

Smith's doctor is a very angry doctor. I think all the playfulness can be misread. But to me/my family it all seems like over compensation "i'm happy, everything's fine, i've got it all in hand" when shiat is really bad for him inside himself.

His doctor is dealing with the cumulative effects (mostly for ill he thinks, see the "more guilt" scene in a previous episode) he's had on his previous companions. And he's not dealing very well.


I agree. He's got the anger of 9, but he covers it with the playfulness. I think the big reason he just couldn't let the Ponds go and carried on popping in and out of their lives far too long was in large part because of the massive amount of guilt and anger he's carrying over what happened with so many previous companions. Heck, even Jack Harkness getting turned immortal was as much if a curse as a blessing.
 
2012-10-01 11:15:38 AM

Mad_Radhu: She posted the pic earlier this year, months after The Girl Who Waited aired in late 2011. Unless it was an unrelated in-joke with a REALLY long set up, I'm betting they shot some footage of a matronly-looking Amy for a later episode. River was very insistent that Amy go back to be with Rory, so it seems like she knows that the Pond family is going to be reunited in New York in 1970. For some reason Moffatt is saving that final reveal for a later River episode, I think.



Feh. It could just as easily been something that she photographed when cleaning out her trailer, or that someone on the cast or crew only gave her (i.e., with the Doubtfire photo) long after the original shoot. That blurry green background her also looks an awful lot like the garden room from that episode. Note also that it's been even longer (filming "A Christmas Carol") since she last wore the police belt that's in the next photo.

You could be right. I just don't see that photo as proof, for the counter-arguments above.


Mad_Radhu: Amy's and Rory's lives in NYC definitely overlap with young River of 1970, so at some point they are going to have to address that plot point. That reveal would have worked well enough in this episode, so I have to wonder the twist somehow it fits better into another River story that Moffatt has planned for later in the season.
Or maybe not. I could just be too attached to my own pet theory.


No, not definitely. Quite possibly. We don't know that the angel at the cemetery is the same one which sent Rory back the first time. So we don't know that they ended up in 1938. We only know that they arrived before 1957 or so (or later if they were older than 32 by that point), and that they arrived late enough that 1938 could be considered "old New York" by the time she died (or by the time she could no longer type).

We don't even know that River necessarily went back and gave Amy the book to publish. The only parts of the book we heard were those parts that Amy heard the Doctor read, that which she read herself, that which she experienced, and the afterward that she wrote to him. We don't know of anything in it the book which Amy could not have written herself.

Even if we assume that River's encouragement of Amy at the cemetery was based upon her own knowledge of the plan's success from earlier in her timeline, we don't know that she had visited them. We know that she's an archaeologist. We know that she went back to 1938 or earlier, and set herself up as a PI in the process of investigating the Angels. How did she know to go to that point in time? She had already researched and learned about the alleged reports/claims/et cet. That research could quite plausibly also caused her to learn of a Rory & Amelia Williams who were rumoured to have been attacked by the angels; she might even have seen the grave before. She knew just where to be when Rory showed up. 

We also don't know that Amy was right about Kovarian's damage to her reproductive system, or that the Angels' time-travel didn't have a side effect of correcting that damage, such that River has a non-Timelord sibling. How old is Mrs Angelo? Who are Barry Williams' (Rhys' dad, not the guy who played Greg Brady) parents? Who were Petra Williams' parents? She was Professor Stahlman's assistant in Inferno, and her actress was born in 1940. Allison Williams was Prof. Jensen's assistant fighting Daleks at the Foreman junkyard on 22 November 1963 in Remembrance of the Daleks. Et cet.
 
2012-10-01 02:39:07 PM

FormlessOne: Mad_Radhu: FormlessOne: As an aside, I say "fark the 'mid-season finale' as a concept." I enjoy Doctor Who (although the overmarketing of Matt Smith and the series in general has soured me a bit on our current Doctor), but I'm tired of this ratings gimmick.

From what I understand, it is a combination of BBC cutbacks due to UK government austerity measures and Moffat wanting to move part of the 2012 budget to 2013 so he could go balls out during the 50th anniversary season.

Feh. They're not the only series to use the "mid-season finale" gimmick. Given the over-the-top silliness and tepid writing as of late, I'm afraid of what Moffat considers "balls out."


*cough*Heroes*cough*
 
2012-10-01 03:25:47 PM
i48.tinypic.com

River makes my pants feel funny
 
2012-10-01 08:33:57 PM
Another thing we don't know: Who [no pun intended] put the book in the Doctor's pocket? A future River, sometime between "Angels Take Manhattan" and "Last Night" is the obvious most likely answer -- which is why it likely isn't the case -- though that means it actually might well be.

Even assuming Amy & Rory stayed in the U.S. and resisted the urge to serve Queen & country when the war started the following year, for fear of contaminating the Williams' and Ponds' timeline, meeting up with the Doctor unexpectedly, et cet., it still could have been them. Why did Melody go to New York when she left the orphanage? Did her aged parents drive down to Florida in July 1969 and take her? Did one of them slip aboard the TARDIS (perhaps using the key hidden above the "P" in "Police Box" or being recognised by the TARDIS as the parents of the TARDIS' daughter) while they were there and plant the book? Did they know someone, perhaps in the publishing business, who could get them into Sinatra's 1952 Christmas Eve party? Did they take the train down to Princeton before 18 September 1945 and give it to Einstein to plant?

Heyyyyyyy, I just thought of something. River's confidence at the cemetery tells us pretty implicitly that she knew her parents survived. We speculate that either she learned that in her research or that she met them as Melody/BabyMels in 1969 or 1970, but we also know that her adult self was in Manhattan in the summer of 1969 years before the events (her perspective) of "Angels Take Manhattan". She even preceded her parents' actions (their perspective; followed them by 31 years from Earth's perspective) of confidently falling off of a Manhattan building. Amy and Rory knew, more or less, what she was doing there and where she went, so their elderly selves would have presumably had the knowledge with which to find her and give her the book to plant (sealed in plastic to protect it from the TARDIS' pool and with the admonition not to read it ["spoilers"]).
 
2012-10-01 09:34:14 PM

HopScotchNSoda: Another thing we don't know: Who [no pun intended] put the book in the Doctor's pocket? A future River, sometime between "Angels Take Manhattan" and "Last Night" is the obvious most likely answer -- which is why it likely isn't the case -- though that means it actually might well be.

Even assuming Amy & Rory stayed in the U.S. and resisted the urge to serve Queen & country when the war started the following year, for fear of contaminating the Williams' and Ponds' timeline, meeting up with the Doctor unexpectedly, et cet., it still could have been them. Why did Melody go to New York when she left the orphanage? Did her aged parents drive down to Florida in July 1969 and take her? Did one of them slip aboard the TARDIS (perhaps using the key hidden above the "P" in "Police Box" or being recognised by the TARDIS as the parents of the TARDIS' daughter) while they were there and plant the book? Did they know someone, perhaps in the publishing business, who could get them into Sinatra's 1952 Christmas Eve party? Did they take the train down to Princeton before 18 September 1945 and give it to Einstein to plant?

Heyyyyyyy, I just thought of something. River's confidence at the cemetery tells us pretty implicitly that she knew her parents survived. We speculate that either she learned that in her research or that she met them as Melody/BabyMels in 1969 or 1970, but we also know that her adult self was in Manhattan in the summer of 1969 years before the events (her perspective) of "Angels Take Manhattan". She even preceded her parents' actions (their perspective; followed them by 31 years from Earth's perspective) of confidently falling off of a Manhattan building. Amy and Rory knew, more or less, what she was doing there and where she went, so their elderly selves would have presumably had the knowledge with which to find her and give her the book to plant (sealed in plastic to protect it from the TARDIS' pool and with the admonition not to read it ["spoilers"] ...


You make me dizzy.
 
2012-10-02 09:40:03 PM
Speaking of female professors of archaeology, companions of a certain age, companions who seal things in plastic before going for a swim, and people living on the US East Coast in the mid-20th C:

We don't know the maiden name of Peri's mum Janine Brown, just that she was an American professor of archaeology in Baltimore. Whether by repaired lady parts or adoption, did Amy & Rory rear one archaeology professor -- or two? Did their granddaughter grow up to be the Warrior Queen of Krontep?

1984
Ring
Hello?
Hi, Janine. It's your dad and mum. Just called to see how you are. You never call.
I'm sorry, Dad. I've just been so swamped. I'm writing a grant proposal, and I'm teaching a heavy load.
What's wrong! I know that voice. Out with it.
What? ... What? ... What? ... It's nothing. I'm just tired. I'm frazzled.
Janine....? What did she do this time?
Damn it, I didn't want to worry you both. Peri wanted to go to Morocco on the semester break, but I forced her to join Howard on his survey of Lanzarote, thinking what trouble could she get into in the middle of the Atlantic. Howard's team weren't the only ones digging there and she ran off with some guy, Doctor something -- farking Howard didn't even get his name. Some weird Englishman in a cricket uniform is all I know. Now my jackass daughter is gallivanting around god knows where. You have no idea what I go through with that girl.
Ohh, I wouldn't say that.
The last anyone saw of either of them was supposedly at a phone booth on a beach - that of course isn't there.
A phone booth?
Someone else saw them lurking around a odd looking shed on the beach - no one can find that either.
Well sheds and phone boxes don't just get up and walk away from little islands. Please keep us informed, dear. We love you. Give our best to Peri when she turns up - and a right good swatting too.
I will, mom. Bye.
...
You better bring her back safe, Raggedy Man.
 
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