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(New York Daily News)   You and your middle school buddy have just murdered your great grandma in cold blood. What do you do next? a) leave evidence as bait to try to trap a patsy b) do a half-assed job of cleaning the scene c) eat pizza d) all of the above   (articles.nydailynews.com) divider line 59
    More: Sick, Olds, Iowa, middle schools, Sheboygan, first-degree murders  
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10956 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Sep 2012 at 12:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-09-28 09:34:20 PM
4 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


Sorry. There's hair on their balls.
They can walk the halls.

Either euthenise them or park them where they ain't getting out.

grass on the field...
2012-09-29 04:50:57 AM
3 votes:

Gawdzila: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Baying for blood doesn't exactly tickle me inside.
It's an easy thing to do, it doesn't exactly take any great moral stand, restraint, or compassion to call for the incarceration or killing of someone who hacked up dear old gran with an axe. All it takes is anger, and I've never known humankind to have any lack of that.


Great Janitor: The age means nothing.

Except it does. What if the kid was 7? Would it matter then? If so, what's the cutoff point and why?


There is no cut off, and here is why: when I have physically hurt someone (something I haven't done since I was a kid), it was in an emotional state where there was no thought, and it was never planned. I never hurt someone planning on doing it. It was always the end result of an event that escalated suddenly and rapidly. For example, hanging out with friends, my sister says something that she means to be funny, but it's not, I get offended, we verbally fight and it ends with me in a heightened emotional state, punching her. And what happens next is either she hits back or she runs crying to our parents.

This is not what happened. This was a planned event. These kids went into a situation planning to do harm to someone, and for one kid, it was a family member. That is not normal. It is not normal to plan to harm or kill a human, it's not normal to see a cat or a dog outside and say "I think I'm going to take that animal and beat it to death". It doesn't matter if it were a three year old or a seven year old or an eight-teen year old. If a person is sick enough at any age to kill another human being, they should either be locked away for life in a mental health facility or executed.

One thing that I do want to mention, is that many serial killers started out harming small animals like cats and dogs then moved on to humans. I would not be surprised to learn that these kids also had a history of killing small animals, thinking of it as a game.

Now, if you notice, I have been mentioning two options, death and mental health hospitals, not prison. And that's because of their age. Either we send kids like this to a mental health facility and learn what we can from them, or we put them down like Old Yeller. Prison won't do any good. These are 13 year old kids. They go to prison for this murder. Let's say they only serve 20 years. So they are 33 when they get out. What life do they have? No chance at any kind of decent job, a felony conviction for murder that will follow them everywhere they go. They will only go back to prison. And if they are as messed up in the head as I believe them to be, it could be a murder conviction that sends them back to prison. Prison for life with no chance at parole is the worst punishment imaginable. I was told by people in this thread that an executioner kills in cold blood. That's a narrow minded judgmental viewpoint. When the only other option is life in prison with no chance at parole, execution is a mercy killing. I've seen several of those documentary shows about life inside prisons here in the U.S. To sentence someone to that for life with zero chance of getting out is cruel and unusual punishment. And to do that to a 13 year old is sadistic. But to take a 13 year old who murdered in cold blood and showed zero remorse for it, and say "Okay, prison until 18 years old." is insane. It's asking for these kids to do it again.

I have two nieces, one is five years old, the other is eleven. If I woke up tomorrow and learned that they killed anyone, I'd advocate for them to either be executed or put into a mental health facility. The age doesn't matter. In some ways, it makes it more horrifying to think that someone so young could be capable of taking another life, or in one kid's case, the life of his own great grandmother.
2012-09-29 01:57:04 AM
3 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Smackledorfer: Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.

Yeah, at 13, the judgment centers of your brain aren't fully-formed like an adult. They are capable of understanding what they did was wrong, which is why they should be punished, but they aren't as capable of thinking through the consequences of their actions in the same way that an adult can (or should be able to), which is why they shouldn't face the same penalties as an adult would.

Calling for the death penalty to be applied to someone that isn't even in high school yet makes me ill.


So what should be done? Lock them up for life in a mental Health facility? Prison?

These people took a life. They thought so little of the life that they took that they ate a pizza afterwards. They are animals, not human. The humane thing is to execute them.
2012-09-29 01:09:39 AM
3 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


Longevity? I'm 29. My eldest cousin is in her early 30s. She and her husband have a baby. So, our grandmother, who is 87, is also a great-grandmother. And our generations are very reasonably spaced. Teen pregnancy is not a thing in my family.

Meanwhile, the kids in TFA should be tried as adults. Sociopaths...
2012-09-29 01:08:17 AM
3 votes:
Dostoyevsky fans, I take it?
2012-09-28 10:21:46 PM
3 votes:

vudukungfu: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

Sorry. There's hair on their balls.
They can walk the halls.

Either euthenise them or park them where they ain't getting out.

grass on the field...


Just put these boys down now or at least sterilize them. They planned this and felt it was OK to behave this way. Time in incarceration isn't going to improve them.
2012-09-29 03:49:29 AM
2 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


There's no surgery or psychological "off-switch" for psychopathy. Child psychopaths grow up to be adult psychopaths. Life in prison or the death penalty are the only ways to protect society from them.
2012-09-29 03:33:33 AM
2 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Smackledorfer: Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.

Yeah, at 13, the judgment centers of your brain aren't fully-formed like an adult. They are capable of understanding what they did was wrong, which is why they should be punished, but they aren't as capable of thinking through the consequences of their actions in the same way that an adult can (or should be able to), which is why they shouldn't face the same penalties as an adult would.

Calling for the death penalty to be applied to someone that isn't even in high school yet makes me ill.


Ignoring the consequences of stealing out of dad's wallet is a whole different world of considering the consequences of embedding a blunt object into your relative's head. That is a whole different world of sick and sometimes adult consequences have to be considered if society doesn't think that sort of sick can be rehabbed out.

This isn't like the stupid kid who play wrestled a little girl to death because he was do dumb to realize he'd break her little body.

It's Wisconsin, there is no death penalty so don't worry.
2012-09-29 02:54:35 AM
2 votes:
How about we not decide at what age people are tried as an adults, but make some crimes equally offensive and punishable across all age groups? For instance, premeditated murder and legitimate rape
2012-09-29 02:35:49 AM
2 votes:

orbister: Great Janitor: It doesn't take a mental health professional to see that these two boys need to either be locked away in a mental health facility for life or executed. No healthy person, regardless of age, kills another person in cold blood.

Except executioners, you mean? And soldiers? How about Seal Team 6?


It appears that you lack the definition of 'in cold blood'. To seek out a target and cause enough harm to end a life for selfish gains is in cold blood. And sometimes, it's not even for any form of gain. The Columbine shootings, for example, was a mass murder that was done in cold blood.

Executioners don't end life in cold blood, often times they are carrying out a state order to end a life. Soldiers, I've known several, some even war vets from WW2 through the first gulf war, who took lives. No, they weren't cold blooded killers, same with Seal Team 6.

I'm sorry that you lack the ability to any killing as anything but a cold blooded killing. But some killing is justified. Someone breaks into my home and I will end that life. That doesn't mean that I'm a cold blooded killer, that just means that killing someone who breaks into my home, while I am at home, means protecting myself and the life of my spouse.
2012-09-29 02:26:29 AM
2 votes:

orbister: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Your faith is restored by people calling for two children to be raped, locked up until they die of old age or killed? How are things in Tehran these days?


The thread is full of people calling for two killers to be locked up until they die of old age or executed. The age means nothing.
2012-09-29 02:20:32 AM
2 votes:

mkrieger: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

You are wrong


Actually, he's got a point.

Don't charge 'em as adults.

Don't even charge 'em as kids.

Charge 'em as transformers, and I don't mean the robots.

s3.freefoto.com
2012-09-29 01:25:17 AM
2 votes:

rebelyell2006: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?

Because white trash will still pop out their first litters when they turn 16.


I had a great grandmother for 23 years. She lived to be 101. Suck my dick.
2012-09-29 01:17:56 AM
2 votes:

bdub77: What a bunch of morons. Lose your lives to take spare change from a woman who will likely be dead by the time you would have graduated high school?

Disregarding the obvious brutal awfulness of the crime, stupidity of this degree should carry a life sentence.


Without the possibility of parole. Let them both rot in prison for the next several decades.
2012-09-29 01:13:03 AM
2 votes:

The Southern Dandy: Yeah, they're old enough to be responsible for murder, but don't let them vote or drink a beer. They aren't responsible enough for that.


By that logic, you're basically saying that once you reach a certain age, murder is legal.

The point is, not only did they break the law, but they broke a very serious law, and will not enjoy being locked up with the Booty Bandit.
2012-09-29 01:10:05 AM
2 votes:
i49.tinypic.com
2012-09-29 01:09:01 AM
2 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


They could go go juvenile court if they asked for the money, got denied, pushed her down, and she accidentally died when she hit her head on table.

The fact they they brought the weapons, hit her several times, and tried to stash the body shows that there is truly something wrong with these kids. 

/in my day we respected our elders
//or at least were smart enough to steal from people with more than spare change
2012-09-29 01:03:23 AM
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


Because white trash will still pop out their first litters when they turn 16.
2012-09-29 01:03:10 AM
2 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


No it's not.

Or rather 13 years is enough if you're killing old ladies for money.
2012-09-29 01:02:51 AM
2 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


They knew what they were doing. Charge as an adult, put the death penalty as an option.
2012-09-28 10:19:17 PM
2 votes:
I don't get it. Did grandma have that much money? Why do they both have that incredibly retarded haircut? WTF is wrong with young kids these days??!
2012-09-29 02:51:55 PM
1 votes:
I say they need to be locked in a mental hospital, and given a lot of therapy, drugs, shock treatments, and maybe even a few beatings until they are either determined to be cured of their homicidal tendencies, or deemed incurably insane and left to rot in padded rooms until the reaper takes them in the natural course of things.

Prison won't do any good, and execution is too barbaric for someone so young, even if they are horrible. They may be fixable. Getting them out of the environment that produced this behavior is a start. If their brains truly are rotten to the core and immune to psychological repair, then there's no harm in leaving them in a hospital for the rest of their lives.
2012-09-29 12:29:44 PM
1 votes:

someonelse: Amazing how all the posters from yesterday's thread who knew the suspects would be black before they clicked aren't here. Guess the cross burnings ran late last night.


For real. Where is my cookie for assuming they were sick little crackers?
2012-09-29 11:59:40 AM
1 votes:

doglover: DisregardTheFollowing: My guess is that one of the two (and just judging by the mugshots, probably the one on the left) is a sick and twisted fark who had a heavy influence over the boy on the right who seems to have remorse in his eyes. Just doesn't seem likely that they are both harboring the same amount of crazy. So send the crazy kid to a hospital till he stops living and send the other one to juvy till he's 18 and re-evaluate his condition.

Send them both to the reaper now, and feel bad later in a nicer world where at least two murderous monsters won't kill any more old ladies for pocket change; y'know if a world without monsters who kill their own kin with a hatchet for pocket money are what you feel sorry without.


Oddly enough the only flaw I see in that logic (and it's a biggie) is that our society won't allow it. I wouldn't shed a tear if they were both hanged outside of the nearest Hot Topic to send a message to all the other little creeps. The presence of that sort of justice may very well detour thought processes that lead to that sort of action. I.E. one asshole kid says to the other "Yea we could do that, but you know they are just gonna kill us back tomorrow."

/Glad we are not that barbaric
//Slippery slope and whatnot
2012-09-29 11:15:29 AM
1 votes:

lizardbrain: DisregardTheFollowing: My guess is that one of the two (and just judging by the mugshots, probably the one on the left) is a sick and twisted fark who had a heavy influence over the boy on the right who seems to have remorse in his eyes. Just doesn't seem likely that they are both harboring the same amount of crazy. So send the crazy kid to a hospital till he stops living and send the other one to juvy till he's 18 and re-evaluate his condition.

Yeah, but re-evaluate great-grandma's condition first.


You can if you want but that's gonna smell awful.
2012-09-29 11:10:39 AM
1 votes:
My guess is that one of the two (and just judging by the mugshots, probably the one on the left) is a sick and twisted fark who had a heavy influence over the boy on the right who seems to have remorse in his eyes. Just doesn't seem likely that they are both harboring the same amount of crazy. So send the crazy kid to a hospital till he stops living and send the other one to juvy till he's 18 and re-evaluate his condition.
2012-09-29 11:09:08 AM
1 votes:
AbbeySomeone: vudukungfu: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

Sorry. There's hair on their balls.
They can walk the halls.

Either euthenise them or park them where they ain't getting out.

grass on the field...

Just put these boys down now or at least sterilize casrate them. They planned this and felt it was OK to behave this way. Time in incarceration isn't going to improve them.

FIFY.
2012-09-29 10:37:33 AM
1 votes:

Gawdzila: you should start with reforming prisons into actual correctional facilities instead of criminal factories


Problem: Nobody has any farking idea how to actually do that; every experiment in rehabilitation of criminals that's been tried has failed miserably.

There are, in fact, only three known ways to reduce recidivism rates. Execution, imprisonment until late middle age, and castration.

Everything else is as effective as homeopathy.
2012-09-29 09:40:11 AM
1 votes:

Great Janitor: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

They knew what they were doing. Charge as an adult, put the death penalty as an option.


fark that, just have a guard "accidentally" cut the camera feed to their cells and then string the farkers up. I can see the article now; "Distraught over their actions and their probable lifetime incarceration, the two boys hung themselves while awaiting trial. It is unclear at this time why cameras were not on the boys and why checks were only done every three hours. The families are awaiting autopsy results."
2012-09-29 06:38:49 AM
1 votes:

Smackledorfer: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

Agreed, and not because I think we have good odds of fixing these kids.

Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.


Ah, the joy that is Zero Tolerance - because that's the same logic you're using.

Life isn't binary, and it's possible that one day you'll grow up to recognize that.
2012-09-29 06:11:36 AM
1 votes:

Gawdzila: I agree, which is why I advocate lifetime incarceration for people who shouldn't be returned to society. It protects us from them


But it doesn't. It only protects SOME people. Prisons require guards, and money, and prisoners. These worthless shiat factories will be wasting or endangering all of these things. And what if they escape? You think time behind bars from the age of 13 will make them BETTER people?

It's a horrible punishment, imprisonment. It's a sublime torture that helps no one and hurts everyone.
2012-09-29 04:02:22 AM
1 votes:

CallMeGomer: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?
Let me guess, math and science aren't your strong subjects. At 21 my daughter was born. I am now 64 and my granddaughter is 16. So if she is a good girl, I will still be a great GP at 68 or 69. If I had waited until I was 31 then I would still be great at 78 or thereabouts. My mother lived to be 94 and had great great. The longevity of people is one of our big population and job problems.


"granddaughter is 16. So if she is a good girl, I will still be a great GP at 68 or 69."

I take it she shan't be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, scientist, entrepreneur, researcher, teacher, or a nurse?

Well, Walmart will always need part time cashiers, and SOMEBODY has to watch the teevee in the day time, I guess. Congrats on your family, best wishes.
2012-09-29 03:23:41 AM
1 votes:
It's bad enough to have one little 13 year old sociopath bludgeon an old lady but to find another pal willing to do the same is quite a feat. What a pair of sick bastards.
2012-09-29 03:18:49 AM
1 votes:

orbister: AverageAmericanGuy: This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?

The poor and uneducated tend to start having children at 20 or so. Parent at 20, grandparent at 40, greatgrandparent at 60 and (if you make it, because poor and uneducated people also have lower life expectancies) greatgreatgrandparent at 80.

The better off and educated, on the other hand, tend to leave pupping until 30. so you have to make it to 90 to be a greatgrandparent. Still, you're better off and educated, so you have a pretty fair chance of making it.


In Texas (right next to Mexico) we have the highest percentage of 24-year-old grandmothers. Guess who pays for their food and care?
2012-09-29 03:18:32 AM
1 votes:

doglover: grinnel: legitimate rape

We say "rape-rape" around here to differentiate from the other kinds.


I thought rape-rape was only if you liked rape???
2012-09-29 02:53:43 AM
1 votes:

orbister: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Your faith is restored by people calling for two children to be raped, locked up until they die of old age or killed? How are things in Tehran these days?


Fun fact : ln Tehran when they hanged three gay teens, they hanged them from construction cranes, not gallows.
2012-09-29 02:47:13 AM
1 votes:

Great Janitor: It appears that you lack the definition of 'in cold blood'. To seek out a target and cause enough harm to end a life for selfish gains is in cold blood. And sometimes, it's not even for any form of gain. The Columbine shootings, for example, was a mass murder that was done in cold blood.

Executioners don't end life in cold blood, often times they are carrying out a state order to end a life. Soldiers, I've known several, some even war vets from WW2 through the first gulf war, who took lives. No, they weren't cold blooded killers, same with Seal Team 6.


So you're saying that strapping someone down to a table and then injecting a combination of drugs to paralyse and then kill them is NOT killing in cold blood? You're saying that rendering someone helpless, attaching electrodes to them and then pulling a switch is NOT cold blood? You're saying that watching an image of a villagers in Yemen, thousands of miles away, trying to help survivors of the missile you fired five minutes ago and then calmly pressing a button to fire another missile at them is NOT cold blood?

The motivations may be different, but if you kill someone deliberately for any reason other than an immediate need to preserve a life, you are doing it in cold blood. That's what "in cold blood" means.
2012-09-29 02:38:50 AM
1 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


Eric Smith.

Assuming psycho/sociopath tendencies (and you bet they're pulling out all the stops for the psych evals), yes, charge them as adults. Otherwise (depending on state laws) they get let out of the mental institution at 18 and can go back to being... whatever it is they end up being, it varies...
2012-09-29 02:38:08 AM
1 votes:

orbister: Great Janitor: The age means nothing.

NAMBLA use that argument too, I believe.


Nice logical fallacy you have there.
2012-09-29 02:27:04 AM
1 votes:
Well I guess thats two less tween shiatbags spewing hate on XBox live. Thanks granny!
2012-09-29 02:24:11 AM
1 votes:

bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.


Your faith is restored by people calling for two children to be raped, locked up until they die of old age or killed? How are things in Tehran these days?
2012-09-29 02:20:54 AM
1 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Great Janitor: These people took a life. They thought so little of the life that they took that they ate a pizza afterwards. They are animals, not human. The humane thing is to execute them.

Ah, I didn't realize you were a mental health professional that has had a chance to interview them in a professional capacity. Obviously I will defer to your expertise in the matter.


It doesn't take a mental health professional to see that these two boys need to either be locked away in a mental health facility for life or executed. No healthy person, regardless of age, kills another person in cold blood.
2012-09-29 02:17:46 AM
1 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


You are wrong
2012-09-29 01:52:42 AM
1 votes:
"They also allegedly tried to dispose the victim's body, dragging her to the garage, but then abandoning the plan."

Man this body is HEAVY.... ah fark it.
2012-09-29 01:49:15 AM
1 votes:
Oh, and dont tell me these kids could appreciate what they did given how shiatty their plan was. Kill granny for change, steal the car and grab a pizza?

Yea, clearly mature thinking.
2012-09-29 01:27:50 AM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Dostoyevsky fans, I take it?


Worse. Bieber!
2012-09-29 01:27:42 AM
1 votes:
I would hope that if one of these kids was mine, I'd have the mental clarity at this moment to realize that they can't ever be let into society again. Something tells me that these kids parents aren't that great though.

//You can't fix evil. Lock 'em up for the duration.
2012-09-29 01:24:35 AM
1 votes:
The Beiber helmet is the mullet of the current generation.
2012-09-29 01:22:55 AM
1 votes:
It shouldn't be legal to have hair like that.
2012-09-29 01:15:12 AM
1 votes:

bdub77: What a bunch of morons. Lose your lives to take spare change from a woman who will likely be dead by the time you would have graduated high school?

Disregarding the obvious brutal awfulness of the crime, stupidity of this degree should carry a life sentence.


I agree.

But can "life" be a maximum length of 24 hours after the last appeal?
2012-09-29 01:09:08 AM
1 votes:
What a bunch of morons. Lose your lives to take spare change from a woman who will likely be dead by the time you would have graduated high school?

Disregarding the obvious brutal awfulness of the crime, stupidity of this degree should carry a life sentence.
2012-09-29 01:05:54 AM
1 votes:
www.nydailynews.com

yrbmagazine.com
2012-09-29 01:05:17 AM
1 votes:
Is it bad I found the most disturbing thing about this the fact that they're practically identical despite not apparently being related?
2012-09-29 01:03:35 AM
1 votes:
The article pointedly avoids mentioning the race of the murderers.

Thanks liberal media!
2012-09-29 01:03:10 AM
1 votes:
Why is the older one pouting for his booking shot? Stupid kids.
2012-09-29 12:59:36 AM
1 votes:
farking black kids are out of control. They're animals. If we had any sense in this country, we'd cage them.

/wait...what?
2012-09-29 12:58:41 AM
1 votes:

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


We get it they're not black
/Throws bait out there
2012-09-28 10:51:49 PM
1 votes:

ambassador_ahab: I don't get it. Did grandma have that much money? Why do they both have that incredibly retarded haircut? WTF is wrong with young kids these days??!


Blame Bieber!
2012-09-28 09:06:30 PM
1 votes:
I look forward to the huge pile of Justin Beiber CDS on fire.
 
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