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(New York Daily News)   You and your middle school buddy have just murdered your great grandma in cold blood. What do you do next? a) leave evidence as bait to try to trap a patsy b) do a half-assed job of cleaning the scene c) eat pizza d) all of the above   (articles.nydailynews.com) divider line 197
    More: Sick, Olds, Iowa, middle schools, Sheboygan, first-degree murders  
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10961 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Sep 2012 at 12:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-29 03:04:45 AM

grinnel: legitimate rape


We say "rape-rape" around here to differentiate from the other kinds.
 
2012-09-29 03:04:55 AM

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


I'd go for abortion then. Some might consider 13 too old, but I don't.
 
2012-09-29 03:07:22 AM

Great Janitor: Executioners don't end life in cold blood


uh yea they do - can I borrow your dictionary I suspect it will forgive me for calling you a dickhead
 
2012-09-29 03:07:36 AM

bmihura: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

I'd go for abortion then. Some might consider 13 too old, but I don't.


55th trimester? In this case I'll allow it.

theinfosphere.org
 
2012-09-29 03:08:46 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


The poor and uneducated tend to start having children at 20 or so. Parent at 20, grandparent at 40, greatgrandparent at 60 and (if you make it, because poor and uneducated people also have lower life expectancies) greatgreatgrandparent at 80.

The better off and educated, on the other hand, tend to leave pupping until 30. so you have to make it to 90 to be a greatgrandparent. Still, you're better off and educated, so you have a pretty fair chance of making it.
 
2012-09-29 03:18:32 AM

doglover: grinnel: legitimate rape

We say "rape-rape" around here to differentiate from the other kinds.


I thought rape-rape was only if you liked rape???
 
2012-09-29 03:18:49 AM

orbister: AverageAmericanGuy: This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?

The poor and uneducated tend to start having children at 20 or so. Parent at 20, grandparent at 40, greatgrandparent at 60 and (if you make it, because poor and uneducated people also have lower life expectancies) greatgreatgrandparent at 80.

The better off and educated, on the other hand, tend to leave pupping until 30. so you have to make it to 90 to be a greatgrandparent. Still, you're better off and educated, so you have a pretty fair chance of making it.


In Texas (right next to Mexico) we have the highest percentage of 24-year-old grandmothers. Guess who pays for their food and care?
 
2012-09-29 03:21:23 AM

orbister: The better off and educated, on the other hand, tend to leave pupping until 30.


Thats a new trend, less than two generations long
 
2012-09-29 03:23:41 AM
It's bad enough to have one little 13 year old sociopath bludgeon an old lady but to find another pal willing to do the same is quite a feat. What a pair of sick bastards.
 
2012-09-29 03:24:34 AM

Slartibartfaster: orbister: The better off and educated, on the other hand, tend to leave pupping until 30.

Thats a new trend, less than two generations long


Maybe where you are. Not where I am.
 
2012-09-29 03:28:10 AM

grinnel: doglover: grinnel: legitimate rape

We say "rape-rape" around here to differentiate from the other kinds.

I thought rape-rape was only if you liked rape???


No, that's grape-ape.
 
2012-09-29 03:33:33 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Smackledorfer: Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.

Yeah, at 13, the judgment centers of your brain aren't fully-formed like an adult. They are capable of understanding what they did was wrong, which is why they should be punished, but they aren't as capable of thinking through the consequences of their actions in the same way that an adult can (or should be able to), which is why they shouldn't face the same penalties as an adult would.

Calling for the death penalty to be applied to someone that isn't even in high school yet makes me ill.


Ignoring the consequences of stealing out of dad's wallet is a whole different world of considering the consequences of embedding a blunt object into your relative's head. That is a whole different world of sick and sometimes adult consequences have to be considered if society doesn't think that sort of sick can be rehabbed out.

This isn't like the stupid kid who play wrestled a little girl to death because he was do dumb to realize he'd break her little body.

It's Wisconsin, there is no death penalty so don't worry.
 
2012-09-29 03:35:31 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


My 3 year old got to meet her great great grandma, two great grandmothers, one great grandfather, and both sets of grandparents.
 
2012-09-29 03:41:13 AM
Also this is a Sheboygan story. Sheboygan is the Florida of Wisconsin. Amazing all the Farked of crap that comes out of there. I don't understand how that town can generate so many crazy stories.
 
2012-09-29 03:49:29 AM

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


There's no surgery or psychological "off-switch" for psychopathy. Child psychopaths grow up to be adult psychopaths. Life in prison or the death penalty are the only ways to protect society from them.
 
2012-09-29 03:58:38 AM

doglover: grinnel: doglover: grinnel: legitimate rape

We say "rape-rape" around here to differentiate from the other kinds.

I thought rape-rape was only if you liked rape???

No, that's grape-ape.


Who's ever heard of a forty foot gori-l-l-l-la?
 
2012-09-29 04:02:22 AM

CallMeGomer: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?
Let me guess, math and science aren't your strong subjects. At 21 my daughter was born. I am now 64 and my granddaughter is 16. So if she is a good girl, I will still be a great GP at 68 or 69. If I had waited until I was 31 then I would still be great at 78 or thereabouts. My mother lived to be 94 and had great great. The longevity of people is one of our big population and job problems.


"granddaughter is 16. So if she is a good girl, I will still be a great GP at 68 or 69."

I take it she shan't be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, scientist, entrepreneur, researcher, teacher, or a nurse?

Well, Walmart will always need part time cashiers, and SOMEBODY has to watch the teevee in the day time, I guess. Congrats on your family, best wishes.
 
2012-09-29 04:11:20 AM

ambercricket: Life in prison or the death penalty are the only ways to protect society from them.


Life in prison costs society a LOT of money, and goes on for years, and never really removes the possibility they will never hurt someone else. Remember that guy who stabbed an autistic cellmate to death weeks before the victim's release just so he could get the death penalty and not have to be in jail anymore? Probably not a unique story as you'd think.
 
2012-09-29 04:16:04 AM

bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.


Baying for blood doesn't exactly tickle me inside.
It's an easy thing to do, it doesn't exactly take any great moral stand, restraint, or compassion to call for the incarceration or killing of someone who hacked up dear old gran with an axe. All it takes is anger, and I've never known humankind to have any lack of that.


Great Janitor: The age means nothing.


Except it does. What if the kid was 7? Would it matter then? If so, what's the cutoff point and why?
 
2012-09-29 04:31:41 AM

doglover: ambercricket: Life in prison or the death penalty are the only ways to protect society from them.

Life in prison costs society a LOT of money, and goes on for years, and never really removes the possibility they will never hurt someone else.


Sure it costs money. It also costs money to execute someone, especially in court costs. But either way, it is the cost of running a civlized, compassionate society. Our evidence against someone is almost never perfect. MANY convictions have been reversed, but once you exact the death penalty the conviction is final. The state executing an innocent person is an inexcusable travesty. And even aside from that, I simply do not condone the idea of a government killing its citizens in retribution. Vengeance is not a useful or desirable function for the justice system to undertake, or to enable its citizens to undertake.

If you're truly concerned about the cost of keeping people incarcerated, you should start with reforming prisons into actual correctional facilities instead of criminal factories, and yes, that might require treating criminals with more civility. Recidivism rates are truly awful, and prisoners are expensive to keep. If you want to save money, we should be putting as few people back into prison as possible.
 
2012-09-29 04:33:53 AM

orbister: Maybe where you are. Not where I am


My wife is a scot by blood (Morrison) - it is similar in her background

The tendency to breed in the 30s is a relatively new trend (it was not that way two to three generations back)

My great grandmother (Irish) met me, My son's great grandmother (Maori) met him.

I had my son at age 30, my daughter when I was 37. This late breeding pattern is quite new.
My mother was 21 when she had me and I was her third.
 
2012-09-29 04:38:00 AM
'Sociopathy' is a clinical designation. If our players feature deficient hardware then this is a fact in mitigation. It is schizoidal to seek out a scientific term of art and then equate it with 'evil.' Calling someone 'evil' is an act of a third-rate theologian, not a scientist. This clangs. It is inconsistent to start talking scientifically and finish talking in existential terms.
 
2012-09-29 04:47:41 AM

Gawdzila: I simply do not condone the idea of a government killing its citizens in retribution.


It's not about retribution. It's about protection.

If Old Yeller has rabies, you have to put him down.

If Little Timmy kills great grandma with a hatchet for pizza money, you have to put him down.


news.doddleme.com

It's to keep society safe. Some things just can't be cured.
 
2012-09-29 04:50:57 AM

Gawdzila: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Baying for blood doesn't exactly tickle me inside.
It's an easy thing to do, it doesn't exactly take any great moral stand, restraint, or compassion to call for the incarceration or killing of someone who hacked up dear old gran with an axe. All it takes is anger, and I've never known humankind to have any lack of that.


Great Janitor: The age means nothing.

Except it does. What if the kid was 7? Would it matter then? If so, what's the cutoff point and why?


There is no cut off, and here is why: when I have physically hurt someone (something I haven't done since I was a kid), it was in an emotional state where there was no thought, and it was never planned. I never hurt someone planning on doing it. It was always the end result of an event that escalated suddenly and rapidly. For example, hanging out with friends, my sister says something that she means to be funny, but it's not, I get offended, we verbally fight and it ends with me in a heightened emotional state, punching her. And what happens next is either she hits back or she runs crying to our parents.

This is not what happened. This was a planned event. These kids went into a situation planning to do harm to someone, and for one kid, it was a family member. That is not normal. It is not normal to plan to harm or kill a human, it's not normal to see a cat or a dog outside and say "I think I'm going to take that animal and beat it to death". It doesn't matter if it were a three year old or a seven year old or an eight-teen year old. If a person is sick enough at any age to kill another human being, they should either be locked away for life in a mental health facility or executed.

One thing that I do want to mention, is that many serial killers started out harming small animals like cats and dogs then moved on to humans. I would not be surprised to learn that these kids also had a history of killing small animals, thinking of it as a game.

Now, if you notice, I have been mentioning two options, death and mental health hospitals, not prison. And that's because of their age. Either we send kids like this to a mental health facility and learn what we can from them, or we put them down like Old Yeller. Prison won't do any good. These are 13 year old kids. They go to prison for this murder. Let's say they only serve 20 years. So they are 33 when they get out. What life do they have? No chance at any kind of decent job, a felony conviction for murder that will follow them everywhere they go. They will only go back to prison. And if they are as messed up in the head as I believe them to be, it could be a murder conviction that sends them back to prison. Prison for life with no chance at parole is the worst punishment imaginable. I was told by people in this thread that an executioner kills in cold blood. That's a narrow minded judgmental viewpoint. When the only other option is life in prison with no chance at parole, execution is a mercy killing. I've seen several of those documentary shows about life inside prisons here in the U.S. To sentence someone to that for life with zero chance of getting out is cruel and unusual punishment. And to do that to a 13 year old is sadistic. But to take a 13 year old who murdered in cold blood and showed zero remorse for it, and say "Okay, prison until 18 years old." is insane. It's asking for these kids to do it again.

I have two nieces, one is five years old, the other is eleven. If I woke up tomorrow and learned that they killed anyone, I'd advocate for them to either be executed or put into a mental health facility. The age doesn't matter. In some ways, it makes it more horrifying to think that someone so young could be capable of taking another life, or in one kid's case, the life of his own great grandmother.
 
2012-09-29 04:58:02 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


My grandmother is in her 90's, my sister is in her 30's and has two kids, 12 and 8. So at least those two kids and my brother's kid have a surviving great-grandparent. I even remember meeting her mother- my own great-grandmother- at least three or four times. She spoke no English and I barely spoke Spanish at that age, but I had a surviving great-grandparent in living memory.
 
2012-09-29 05:09:46 AM

Great Janitor: When the only other option is life in prison with no chance at parole, execution is a mercy killing.


The minister in my old church did work with people on death row. The people that he worked with absolutely did not wan to die. They fought their execution as hard as they could. Hey, maybe you'd want to die because of something you saw on TV (and when has TV ever misrepresented anything?), but don't project that onto other people. If you want to
 
2012-09-29 05:10:14 AM

TiMthisIS: It's bad enough to have one little 13 year old sociopath bludgeon an old lady but to find another pal willing to do the same is quite a feat. What a pair of sick bastards.


Came for Elephant reference, leaving disappointed.
 
2012-09-29 05:10:43 AM
Argh, accidentally the whole thing.

If you want to die, hey, it's pretty hard to stop someone determined to die.
 
2012-09-29 05:20:37 AM

orbister: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Your faith is restored by people calling for two children to be raped, locked up until they die of old age or killed? How are things in Tehran Texas these days?


FTFY
 
2012-09-29 05:26:36 AM
Make these two douchebags fight each other to the death with hammers and hatchets, then lock up the survivor for life.
 
2012-09-29 05:44:11 AM

doglover: Gawdzila: I simply do not condone the idea of a government killing its citizens in retribution.

It's not about retribution. It's about protection.


I agree, which is why I advocate lifetime incarceration for people who shouldn't be returned to society. It protects us from them without the messy business of the falsely convicted or the moral issue of state sanctioned killings.

Yet many people don't seem to agree. I'm not saying this is you, but there are a very large number of people who advocate the death penalty "because they deserve it".


Great Janitor: I have two nieces, one is five years old, the other is eleven. If I woke up tomorrow and learned that they killed anyone, I'd advocate for them to either be executed or put into a mental health facility. The age doesn't matter.


Wow, you're a sick puppy. And apparently not very knowledgeable about neurology or psychology.


Great Janitor: It is not normal to plan to harm or kill a human, it's not normal to see a cat or a dog outside and say "I think I'm going to take that animal and beat it to death". It doesn't matter if it were a three year old or a seven year old or an eight-teen year old.


It isn't normal for most people, sure, but it depends on their upbringing. You are very much overestimating how much morality is pre-programmed in us, or at least how easy it is to damage that sense of morality. Through truly awful life circumstances and/or violent, irresponsible, unloving, or otherwise damaged parents or parental relationships, sometimes children grow up with the idea that violence is normal, or acceptable, or necessary.

The reason the age DOES make a difference is because brains are very highly changeable, especially at young ages. The older one gets, the more these ideas and behaviors are ingrained. But kids... 5, 8, 12, even into teenage-hood, are malleable enough that you can teach them to un-learn the terrible modes of thinking and emotional experience that they learned earlier in life. But instead of trying to find out what caused them to have such a broken sense of right and wrong and try to fix it (the entire reason the profession of psychology exists), you think it's preferable to have the state murder a 11-year-old or even a 5-year-old? I don't care how you justify it to yourself -- as a "mercy killing" or whatever you think makes it okay -- that's just farking sick.
 
2012-09-29 05:46:21 AM

Kevin72: jmr61: rebelyell2006: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?

Because white trash will still pop out their first litters when they turn 16.

I had a great grandmother for 23 years. She lived to be 101. Suck my dick.

I had a great grandmother for 19 years. She lived until my grandfather was 75. Can I suck your dick?


C'mon you cocksuckers, there are other forums for that!
 
2012-09-29 06:11:36 AM

Gawdzila: I agree, which is why I advocate lifetime incarceration for people who shouldn't be returned to society. It protects us from them


But it doesn't. It only protects SOME people. Prisons require guards, and money, and prisoners. These worthless shiat factories will be wasting or endangering all of these things. And what if they escape? You think time behind bars from the age of 13 will make them BETTER people?

It's a horrible punishment, imprisonment. It's a sublime torture that helps no one and hurts everyone.
 
2012-09-29 06:13:51 AM

Gawdzila: It's an easy thing to do, it doesn't exactly take any great moral stand, restraint, or compassion to call for the incarceration or killing of someone who hacked up dear old gran with an axe. All it takes is anger, and I've never known humankind to have any lack of that.


Well put, sir.
 
2012-09-29 06:18:18 AM

Slartibartfaster: The tendency to breed in the 30s is a relatively new trend (it was not that way two to three generations back)


I left school in Glasgow thirty years ago. Most of my classmates had professional parents and most of them were in their fifties. Grandparental deaths were very common amongst my classmates. I'll grant you that the ages have slipped up a bit, and 20/30 now were probably 17/27 thirty years ago, but it has been the case for a long time that the poor breed younger.
 
2012-09-29 06:38:49 AM

Smackledorfer: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

Agreed, and not because I think we have good odds of fixing these kids.

Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.


Ah, the joy that is Zero Tolerance - because that's the same logic you're using.

Life isn't binary, and it's possible that one day you'll grow up to recognize that.
 
2012-09-29 06:49:05 AM

Gawdzila: doglover: ambercricket: Life in prison or the death penalty are the only ways to protect society from them.

Life in prison costs society a LOT of money, and goes on for years, and never really removes the possibility they will never hurt someone else.

Sure it costs money. It also costs money to execute someone, especially in court costs. But either way, it is the cost of running a civlized, compassionate society. Our evidence against someone is almost never perfect. MANY convictions have been reversed, but once you exact the death penalty the conviction is final. The state executing an innocent person is an inexcusable travesty. And even aside from that, I simply do not condone the idea of a government killing its citizens in retribution. Vengeance is not a useful or desirable function for the justice system to undertake, or to enable its citizens to undertake.

If you're truly concerned about the cost of keeping people incarcerated, you should start with reforming prisons into actual correctional facilities instead of criminal factories, and yes, that might require treating criminals with more civility. Recidivism rates are truly awful, and prisoners are expensive to keep. If you want to save money, we should be putting as few people back into prison as possible.


Vengeance = votes. The politicians in most cases are intelligent and logical enough to know that a revenge-based justice system is terrible for society in the long run, but they toss ethics out the window so they can get voted in by the uninformed. the innocent and mental cases go to jail and die. Inmates treated like dogs act like them when they get out.
 
2012-09-29 06:55:50 AM

Smackledorfer: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

Agreed, and not because I think we have good odds of fixing these kids.

Kids are tried as kids because they are supposedly too young to appreciate their crimes. This is either true or it isn't.


kids are presumed to be to young and inexperienced to form intent because many of that age are, but some aren't, and for that reason the presumption can be overcome. so no, it isn't just true or not true. as always, it depends on the particular circumstances.
 
2012-09-29 07:10:56 AM

Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".


/Sorry but you're wrong. If a crime is heinous enough they can do that. I think that this would qualify. Loose change. Sighs. Idiots.
 
2012-09-29 07:11:12 AM
For those few calling for the death penalty/execution - Wisconsin hasn't had a death penalty for about a hundred and fifty years, because it was outlawed in the mid-1800s by voters who recognized it for the disgusting, worthless, vile spectacle it is. The state has, subsequently, had one of the lowest murder rates in the US. So no, you cannot kill these children because you feel like it.

Because they are children. They're not old enough to drink, smoke, or fark. Children - nearly ALL children - are vicious little ego machines. Toddlers will just straight-up bite you on the leg if they're in a bad mood. Empathy and responsibility are things that we teach our children, as a society. If anything, these kids seem bizarrely underdeveloped - like they're still in the "bite people on the leg" phase of emotional and ethical maturity. I once attacked someone with an aluminum baseball bat when I was thirteen. It was not justified in any way, I was just still a vicious little monster and hadn't grown the fark up yet. (Also, he didn't really get hurt, because he ran like hell, though I did break his watch.) It's twenty years later now, and I'm a relatively productive member of society.

They're shiats, they are. These children are evil little shiats. But thirteen is too young to say that someone is fated to always be an evil shiat for the rest of their life.
 
2012-09-29 07:25:54 AM
I'd go with the "My hair is a harvest mouse nest" defense.

www.nydailynews.comwww.bbc.co.uk
 
2012-09-29 07:49:10 AM

Great Janitor: orbister: bowtiesheep: A story that makes me lose my faith and hope in humanity.
A thread that restores it.

Your faith is restored by people calling for two children to be raped, locked up until they die of old age or killed? How are things in Tehran these days?

The thread is full of people calling for two killers to be locked up until they die of old age or executed. The age means nothing.


It is because they are hideously ugly. If they were two cute preteen girls, or babbling infants nobody would be calling for the death penalty.
 
2012-09-29 08:13:44 AM

Great Janitor: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?

So we've ended teen pregnancy???


My cousin's baby has 5 great grandparents, and she didn't have him until she was 30. Her parents and grandparents were all in their 20s when they had their kids. People are just living longer.
 
2012-09-29 08:22:18 AM
What's with the fancy green tee-shirts? Is that how they are outfitting all this year's Nexus models?

There's no real need for argument about punishing them. They need to vivisect and study these two, and make sure they iron out the bugs in this model. If this sort of thing keeps up replicants won't even be allowed on earth within a few decades.

Sounds like the family of the deceased has a good case against the Tyrell Corporation at least. Hopefully they settle out of court.
 
2012-09-29 08:55:08 AM
Amazing how all the posters from yesterday's thread who knew the suspects would be black before they clicked aren't here. Guess the cross burnings ran late last night.
 
2012-09-29 09:30:20 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age, how are great grandparents still around? In general, the population is aging and having children later and later.

This is just such a weird story. How many people have great grandparents anymore?


I do. My 4 year old has a great great grandmother. I'm 31, my dad is 58, my grandmother is 80 and my great grandmother is 99.
 
2012-09-29 09:40:11 AM

Great Janitor: Ambivalence: Granted the murder was gruesom, but 13 is too young to charge someone as an "adult".

They knew what they were doing. Charge as an adult, put the death penalty as an option.


fark that, just have a guard "accidentally" cut the camera feed to their cells and then string the farkers up. I can see the article now; "Distraught over their actions and their probable lifetime incarceration, the two boys hung themselves while awaiting trial. It is unclear at this time why cameras were not on the boys and why checks were only done every three hours. The families are awaiting autopsy results."
 
2012-09-29 10:09:30 AM

The5thElement: Old news is old.


Yeah, this was new news when I submitted a different article a week ago that was redlit. There was fresh outrage in the local paper yesterday because Nancy Grace jumped on the story and was spewing inaccuracies - the same inaccuracies that are repeated in this article. They did not go to get loose change so they could eat pizza. They told the cops that they went there with the intention of killing the woman. I can't imagine what they must have been thinking.

Google the names and look at different articles for a more accurate story.

/submitter, finally
 
2012-09-29 10:26:10 AM
 
2012-09-29 10:34:36 AM
Send them into the cornfield.
 
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