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(Badass Digest)   Finally, a critical review of that long-ago filmed Red Dawn remake, for those nostalgic for the late '00s. Hey at least there's a montage   (badassdigest.com) divider line 92
    More: Silly, Fantastic Fest, Red Dawn, Josh Hutcherson, artistic inspiration, C. Thomas Howell, Josh Peck, remakes, Chris Hemsworth  
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4746 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 28 Sep 2012 at 1:03 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-28 03:41:38 PM

thecpt: dittybopper: I'm singularly unimpressed. Like I said, rear echelon half-trained occupation troops. Look at the Cuban troops fixing/cutting telephone lines*: They are carrying FN-FALs**. At that period of time, that would have meant *RESERVE* Cuban troops. The Russians are obviously political or administrative troops, or those sent to the back rear for regrouping or as reserves.


*Can't remember which one it was.
**Which just goes to show how well researched that movie was. The easy thing to do would have been to arm them with AKs.

Yeah, Funny enough thats the one time you aren't supposed to use the FAL. But still, an occupation force is going to be trained much better (and equiped much better) than high schoolers who have to survive a winter of exposure in CO. Give the Wolverines some credit. What did you expect them to do? Single handedly defeat a garrison? Hijack Migs, fly to Moscow, flip the bird and drop little boy, fly back to havanna, and bomb Fidel with sadaam husein?

get real.


That's kind of my point: They don't really do much that couldn't have been done by anyone familiar with guns, hunting, and camping. They have a couple months in the Fall to establish themselves in the mountains near Calumet, with help from Robert's father (who owned the store), and Mr. Mason. They don't start fighting on purpose, it's more accidental. Once they do, though, they have some initial success. Why? They know the terrain. They choose when to attack, and when to retreat. It goes great for them, so long as they are up against a Colonel who doesn't have a clue how to handle it because he's always been on the other side of the equation, commanding the Cuban equivalent of half-trained National Guard using old rifles left over from the Batista regime.

Once it gets to be a problem, and it's apparent that Colonel Bella can't handle the situation, the Soviets send in Strelnikov and his Spetznaz troops, and they find and manage to kill all but two of the Wolverines within about a month, at the outside a month and a half.

The entire movie only lasts about 6 months, from the invasion in September, to when it ends in March.
 
2012-09-28 03:56:19 PM

dittybopper: thecpt: dittybopper: I'm singularly unimpressed. Like I said, rear echelon half-trained occupation troops. Look at the Cuban troops fixing/cutting telephone lines*: They are carrying FN-FALs**. At that period of time, that would have meant *RESERVE* Cuban troops. The Russians are obviously political or administrative troops, or those sent to the back rear for regrouping or as reserves.


*Can't remember which one it was.
**Which just goes to show how well researched that movie was. The easy thing to do would have been to arm them with AKs.

Yeah, Funny enough thats the one time you aren't supposed to use the FAL. But still, an occupation force is going to be trained much better (and equiped much better) than high schoolers who have to survive a winter of exposure in CO. Give the Wolverines some credit. What did you expect them to do? Single handedly defeat a garrison? Hijack Migs, fly to Moscow, flip the bird and drop little boy, fly back to havanna, and bomb Fidel with sadaam husein?

get real.

That's kind of my point: They don't really do much that couldn't have been done by anyone familiar with guns, hunting, and camping. They have a couple months in the Fall to establish themselves in the mountains near Calumet, with help from Robert's father (who owned the store), and Mr. Mason. They don't start fighting on purpose, it's more accidental. Once they do, though, they have some initial success. Why? They know the terrain. They choose when to attack, and when to retreat. It goes great for them, so long as they are up against a Colonel who doesn't have a clue how to handle it because he's always been on the other side of the equation, commanding the Cuban equivalent of half-trained National Guard using old rifles left over from the Batista regime.

Once it gets to be a problem, and it's apparent that Colonel Bella can't handle the situation, the Soviets send in Strelnikov and his Spetznaz troops, and they find and manage to kill all but two of the Wolve ...


To be fair, the Wolverines do ambush the Spetznaz troops in the woods(they find out about the tracker). Also, they montaged alot of the attack scenes.
 
2012-09-28 03:59:55 PM

dittybopper: That's kind of my point: They don't really do much that couldn't have been done by anyone familiar with guns, hunting, and camping. They have a couple months in the Fall to establish themselves in the mountains near Calumet, with help from Robert's father (who owned the store), and Mr. Mason. They don't start fighting on purpose, it's more accidental. Once they do, though, they have some initial success. Why? They know the terrain. They choose when to attack, and when to retreat. It goes great for them, so long as they are up against a Colonel who doesn't have a clue how to handle it because he's always been on the other side of the equation, commanding the Cuban equivalent of half-trained National Guard using old rifles left over from the Batista regime.

Once it gets to be a problem, and it's apparent that Colonel Bella can't handle the situation, the Soviets send in Strelnikov and his Spetznaz troops, and they find and manage to kill all but two of the Wolverines within about a month, at the outside a month and a half.

The entire movie only lasts about 6 months, from the invasion in September, to when it ends in March.


That's what I would expect to happen, or maybe my expectations were made by this movie. Surviving in the wilderness until the tide turns is really what one should do, but yeah you have to start doing something after a month of watching friends and family die. Still, if a couple hundred cuban militia had automatic rifles I wouldn't try running at them and standing my ground.

Anyways, Red Dawn plus Hey Man Nice Shot = Super Good
 
2012-09-28 04:05:55 PM

Publikwerks: To be fair, the Wolverines do ambush the Spetznaz troops in the woods(they find out about the tracker). Also, they montaged alot of the attack scenes.


Yes, they do. Sometimes professional military organizations get ambushed by insurgents who know the terrain, and happen to see them coming.

Not very long after, the Spetznaz use a clever ruse and airpower to kill two of them, and two more die in the diversion attack, leaving only two to survive by running away. The Spetznaz arrived in mid or late January as I recall, and the movie ends in March.
 
2012-09-28 04:36:04 PM
Smeggin' hell. They haven't even aired the last season yet, and now they want to remake make it? They'll never find anyone who can properly replace Chris Barrie as Rimmer.
 
2012-09-28 05:05:51 PM

dittybopper: Not very long after, the Spetznaz use a clever ruse and airpower to kill two of them,


It wasn't that clever. I scream at my TV every time I see the box of food fall out of the truck.
 
2012-09-28 05:27:56 PM

taxandspend: Kinda want to see it because it may be the only time I get to see hotties Thor and Peeta in the same movie


I didn't want to say this, but yeah. I'm in just for the eyecandy.
 
2012-09-28 06:04:30 PM

Great Janitor: Smeggin' hell. They haven't even aired the last season yet, and now they want to remake make it? They'll never find anyone who can properly replace Chris Barrie as Rimmer.


Wrong smegging thread
 
2012-09-28 06:55:35 PM

Mikey1969: Spare Me: Mikey1969: How the Hell are these Chinese/North Koreans supposed to have made it to the US, anyway?

[static1.businessinsider.com image 400x300]

Followed up by these.

[telcollc.com image 500x335]

I don't know if NK even has as many planes as appear in the pic, but at least there are plenty of shipping containers, although I don't know how many would survive that trip...


The point of the original Red Dawn - overwhelm in numbers, so only China could really accomplish this. The new one, something about a new military technology.
 
2012-09-28 07:02:20 PM

rawbert7: Mikey1969: Spare Me: Mikey1969: How the Hell are these Chinese/North Koreans supposed to have made it to the US, anyway?

[static1.businessinsider.com image 400x300]

Followed up by these.

[telcollc.com image 500x335]

I don't know if NK even has as many planes as appear in the pic, but at least there are plenty of shipping containers, although I don't know how many would survive that trip...

The point of the original Red Dawn - overwhelm in numbers, so only China could really accomplish this. The new one, something about a new military technology.


In North Korea, new military technology = food.
 
2012-09-28 07:04:55 PM
splat the whale

>>> I don't know if NK even has as many planes as appear in the pic, but at least there are
>>> plenty of shipping containers, although I don't know how many would survive that trip...

You dehydrate them first and then add water once you reach America. POOF! Insta-soldier.

It's been done 
www.upl.co
 
2012-09-28 07:06:14 PM
Dittybopper knows all. Thank you. Excellent knowledge of the original!
 
2012-09-28 07:15:29 PM

RoyBatty: dittybopper: Not very long after, the Spetznaz use a clever ruse and airpower to kill two of them,

It wasn't that clever. I scream at my TV every time I see the box of food fall out of the truck.


You haven't been scavenging for food for 6 months either.
 
2012-09-28 07:16:08 PM

Mark Ratner: Dittybopper knows all. Thank you. Excellent knowledge of the original!


Thanks.

By the by, did you and Stacey ever go all the way?
 
2012-09-28 07:17:26 PM

dittybopper: RoyBatty: dittybopper: Not very long after, the Spetznaz use a clever ruse and airpower to kill two of them,

It wasn't that clever. I set down my fried chicken and scream at my TV every time I see the box of food fall out of the truck.

You haven't been scavenging for food for 6 months either.

 
2012-09-28 07:26:50 PM
Just saw the RiffTrax version of the original a few days ago, getting an obligatory kick.,..

/not the greatest rifftrax
//not bad, but not the greatest
 
2012-09-28 07:27:48 PM

rawbert7: Mikey1969: Spare Me: Mikey1969: How the Hell are these Chinese/North Koreans supposed to have made it to the US, anyway?

[static1.businessinsider.com image 400x300]

Followed up by these.

[telcollc.com image 500x335]

I don't know if NK even has as many planes as appear in the pic, but at least there are plenty of shipping containers, although I don't know how many would survive that trip...

The point of the original Red Dawn - overwhelm in numbers, so only China could really accomplish this. The new one, something about a new military technology.


The other selling point of the first film is they were more or less able to sneak into the US, and I think that is where the Cuba thing came into play.
 
2012-09-28 07:54:00 PM

dittybopper: Publikwerks: To be fair, the Wolverines do ambush the Spetznaz troops in the woods(they find out about the tracker). Also, they montaged alot of the attack scenes.

Yes, they do. Sometimes professional military organizations get ambushed by insurgents who know the terrain, and happen to see them coming.

Not very long after, the Spetznaz use a clever ruse and airpower to kill two of them, and two more die in the diversion attack, leaving only two to survive by running away. The Spetznaz arrived in mid or late January as I recall, and the movie ends in March.


I have to agree with everything you said. If you want a real life example of this just look what was going on in most of Iraq. Most of the insurgents there weren't well trained military, they were teenaged and regular working stiffs that had guns and knowledge of the terrain, and look what they did.

And what people don't realize about Red Dawn is aside from the initial invasion force, the military that they encountered for most of the movie were mostly supply units, administration, military police and engineering people, not combat people. When they did face a combat unit they got an initial victory but quickly folded like a cheap lawn chair.

I'm actually surprised that the movie was popular at the time and didn't face a lot of protest because it didn't have the U.S defeating the Russians and it showed the Russians just about defeating the resistance.
 
2012-09-28 07:58:36 PM

ongbok: I'm actually surprised that the movie was popular at the time and didn't face a lot of protest because it didn't have the U.S defeating the Russians and it showed the Russians just about defeating the resistance.


When it came out, the left hated it because it was fear mongering.
The right loved it because it showed Truman was too much of a *pussy wimp* to let MacArthur go in there,
The right loved it because it showed LBJ was too much of a *pussy wimp* to let Westmoreland go in there,
Showed how ill prepared we were to the commies infiltrating through Nicaragua and demanded we needed to make B1s, start development on F-22s and F-35s.
 
2012-09-28 08:43:17 PM
It's cool that today's political environment was deemed appropriate for a remake of one of the most appalingly jingoistic films of the past 50 years (directed by crypto-fascist John Milius no less, who has been blacklisted for being such a horrible creep).
 
2012-09-28 09:07:20 PM

Bonanza Jellybean: It's cool that today's political environment was deemed appropriate for a remake of one of the most appalingly jingoistic films of the past 50 years (directed by crypto-fascist John Milius no less, who has been blacklisted for being such a horrible creep).


Not sure what your point was but it all evaporated when you write approvingly of blacklisting someone for being a creep(y fascist).
 
2012-09-28 09:10:31 PM

Bonanza Jellybean: It's cool that today's political environment was deemed appropriate for a remake of one of the most appalingly jingoistic films of the past 50 years (directed by crypto-fascist John Milius no less, who has been blacklisted for being such a horrible creep).


I think you're wrong. The fact that this movie took so long to be released is proof that it never should have gotten the greenlight in the first place. It's idiotic to think the remake is even remotely plausible. The original, at the time, was somewhat believable because there was a belief that it was only a matter of time before the two biggest guys on the block were bound to fight. Are you too young to remember that? Did I just get trolled?

3/10
 
2012-09-28 09:27:37 PM

Weaver95: Ennuipoet: NewportBarGuy: That was a real thing?

Sometimes I awake screaming "There is no way North Korea could actually mount an invasion of the Continental United States!".

I find that change to be more irritating than it should be - the producers should have kept the bad guys as the chinese. that, at least, would have been somewhat believable.


I could never understand remaking "Red Dawn" when the game "Homefront" proved already and interactively that it couldn't be done WITHOUT making the invaders Chinese.

You just can't make a US invasion movie without the attackers being either a) space aliens or b) a nation on earth that actually has the tech and manpower to succeed. And nowadays its China or nobody. And being polite and PC and not offending someone to release your invasion movie pretty much proves that there IS NO RISK OF INVASION by the villains--because if there was, we'd have had to change the Koreans to somebody else.

Next time, try remaking "Black Sunday" if you must remake a horrible movie that threatens US soil.
 
2012-09-28 09:57:42 PM

dittybopper: Mark Ratner: Dittybopper knows all. Thank you. Excellent knowledge of the original!

Thanks.

By the by, did you and Stacey ever go all the way?


Yes, and it was the best 3 minutes of my life, at the time. (We're happily married still!)

The first 20 minutes of Red Dawn was scary good, at the time. Great cast...I loved that movie.
 
2012-09-28 11:15:20 PM

Mark Ratner: dittybopper: Mark Ratner: Dittybopper knows all. Thank you. Excellent knowledge of the original!

Thanks.

By the by, did you and Stacey ever go all the way?

Yes, and it was the best 3 minutes of my life, at the time. (We're happily married still!)

The first 20 minutes of Red Dawn was scary good, at the time. Great cast...I loved that movie.


Even that part was well thought out: You've got Soviet airborne troops landing. Some black guy comes out to talk to him, and Burly Soviet Paratrooper Who Doesn't Speak English tells him to stop, in Russkiy yazik, of course, which Mr. Teasdale doesn't understand. He gets too close, and BSPWDSE shoots him, probably because he hasn't been able to sleep on the 12 hour flight over the pole, and he's probably working on 24 or 26 hours without sleep, knowing he's going into WWIII. Same with his tovarishchiy. When they hear shooting, they assume anything not dressed in Soviet winter pattern camo is bad, and because they are sleep deprived and perhaps wired on amphetamine to keep them alert, you get them shooting up the school. All because BSPWDSE was a little too quick to shoot. It's actually decent study how things like that can happen even without there being any intentional plan to shoot (see: Battle of Lexington, ATF assault on Waco).

Why did they land at the school in the first place? Nice big flat drop zone normally used for things like football, baseball, soccer, track and field, recess activities, etc.
 
2012-09-28 11:17:34 PM

dittybopper: he hasn't been able to sleep on the 12 hour flight over the pole, and he's probably working on 24 or 26 hours without sleep, knowing he's going into WWIII.


Forgot to mention: He's going into WWIII into a country where the civilian population is armed to the teeth, and that fact is known to him, as it would have been part of his briefing.
 
2012-09-28 11:18:51 PM

EngineerAU: dittybopper: The North Koreans couldn't possibly even invade a single state. Evar.

True. No one ever conquered wyoming from the left or from the right.

/obscure?


I miss Brad Nowell.
 
2012-09-29 12:02:54 AM
Red Dawn was a near perfect film. Remake something that sucks, Hollyweird, not a classic.
 
2012-09-29 01:35:35 AM
The original was entertaining if implausible. It is an artifact of its times. The Soviets were very upset when the movie came out claiming it was nothing more than American Hollywood propaganda -- which it was. Even so the Soviet DID have invasion plans drawn up. Just as we had plans drawn up to invade them. Had the Soviets ever actually launched a real surprise invasion it would have followed the lines of the one in Red Dawn. Up to a point.

Nobody would bother invading the U.S. today. If the Chinese were sufficiently miffed at us they could cut off their exports to the States while organizing an oil embargo in the Arab world if it were to become the dominant political force in the Middle East. With our Wal-Marts out of crap to sell and no gas for our cars we'd capitulate after a month. Of course by closing down its factories China would have to deal with millions of unemployed workers who might get antsy and cause China more problems than cutting off exports would accomplish. So even that scenario has problems..
 
2012-09-29 12:14:17 PM

dittybopper: Actually, the original was very well researched.


No it wasn't. They said the Russian army came down "through Canada" (British Columbia) and invaded the Pacific Northwest.

Ummm... no. Have you seen BC on a map? ...that's why.

/by sea
//and by air
///they're not coming by land
 
2012-09-29 07:18:02 PM

Ishkur: dittybopper: Actually, the original was very well researched.

No it wasn't. They said the Russian army came down "through Canada" (British Columbia) and invaded the Pacific Northwest.

Ummm... no. Have you seen BC on a map? ...that's why.

/by sea
//and by air
///they're not coming by land


No, it didn't say that. Here is that exchange:

Col. Andy Tanner: [Describing the invasion] West Coast. East Coast. Down here is Mexico. First wave of the attack came in disguised as commercial charter flights same way they did in Afghanistan in '80. Only they were crack Airborne outfits. Now they took these passes in the Rockies.
Jed Eckert: So that's what hit Calumet.
Col. Andy Tanner: I guess so. They coordinated with selective nuke strikes and the missiles were a helluva lot more accurate than we thought. They took out the silos here in the Dakotas, key points of communication.
Darryl Bates: Like what?
Col. Andy Tanner: Oh, like Omaha, Washington, Kansas City.
Darryl Bates: Gone?
Col. Andy Tanner: Yeah. That's right. Infiltrators came up illegal from Mexico. Cubans mostly. They managed to infiltrate SAC bases in the Midwest, several down in Texas and wreaked a helluva lot of havoc, I'm here to tell you. They opened up the door down here, and the whole Cuban & Nicaraguan armies come walking right through, rolled right up here through the Great Plains.
Robert: How far did they get?
Col. Andy Tanner: Cheyenne, across to Kansas. We held them at the Rockies and the Mississippi. Anyway, the Russians reinforced with 60 divisions. Sent three whole army groups across the Bering Strait into Alaska, cut the pipeline, came across Canada to link up here in the middle, but we stopped their butt cold. The lines have pretty much stabilized now.


They *TRIED to come across Canada from Alaska, but couldn't. They didn't link up the the Plains states salient. They got stopped.

Like I said, well researched.
 
2012-09-29 11:43:11 PM
Ok look you guys looking at the political angle in the original red dawn: That was not what the movie is all about

its about youths becoming men in a time of war and their connection and relations to their fathers (and father figures).
You see those figures die or fall short.
Then they sacrifice themselves to keep from becoming their father figures so their can be a rebirth
 
2012-09-30 01:52:25 AM

dittybopper: Sent three whole army groups across the Bering Strait into Alaska, cut the pipeline, came across Canada to link up here in the middle, but we stopped their butt cold.


More like the cold stopped their butts. There's no way an invasion force could cover that amount of inhospitable terrain undetected. This is supposed to be a sneak attack. It's kinda hard to sneak up on an enemy with 60 divisions.

dittybopper: Like I said, well researched.


Normally, I would say that the whole paranoid survivalist wish-fulfillment fantasy of Red Dawn would be a totally implausible scenario... but after seeing the rank incompetence of the Bush Administration in virtually every facet of domestic and foreign jurisprudence, I just don't know now.

So instead of thinking that a sneak attack is possible because America is caught sleeping, now I think that a sneak attack is possible because America is too fat, too stupid, too busy, too lazy and too ignorant to do anything about it.
 
2012-09-30 04:11:52 PM

Ishkur: dittybopper: Sent three whole army groups across the Bering Strait into Alaska, cut the pipeline, came across Canada to link up here in the middle, but we stopped their butt cold.

More like the cold stopped their butts. There's no way an invasion force could cover that amount of inhospitable terrain undetected. This is supposed to be a sneak attack. It's kinda hard to sneak up on an enemy with 60 divisions.


Don't forget, it's a mere colonel speaking, and a fighter pilot to boot. He may not necessarily be all that well informed about all the details.

Besides which, that part had to have happened in the September/November time frame, which isn't all that cold even that far north, and the Russians have experience with cold weather operations. It wasn't the Cubans coming down from Alaska, it was *RUSSIANS*.

dittybopper: Like I said, well researched.

Normally, I would say that the whole paranoid survivalist wish-fulfillment fantasy of Red Dawn would be a totally implausible scenario... but after seeing the rank incompetence of the Bush Administration in virtually every facet of domestic and foreign jurisprudence, I just don't know now.

So instead of thinking that a sneak attack is possible because America is caught sleeping, now I think that a sneak attack is possible because America is too fat, too stupid, too busy, too lazy and too ignorant to do anything about it.


America wasn't necessarily sleeping in Red Dawn. You are looking at it from the standpoint of how things were when the movie was made, not with the initial conditions as set up at the beginning of the movie:

Prologue/Opening Narration: Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years... Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade... Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall... Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil... Mexico plunged into revolution... NATO dissolves. United States stands alone.

In essence, many of the intelligence assets we would have normally relied upon (SIGINT bases in Europe, like Bad Aibling, Field Station Augsburg, Field Station Berlin, Field Station Sinop, etc.) would have been removed following the dissolution of NATO. That cuts off our ears. It also cuts us off from a large amount of human intelligence (HUMINT). About the only thing we would have left is satellite recon, and that has it's limits. Even if you know there is likely to be a strike, not necessarily knowing when and where specifically doesn't do you much good. We *KNEW* the Japanese were going to attack us, based upon numerous indications, but we didn't know when and where, and you can't always be on perpetual alert everywhere all the time, not with limited resources.
 
2012-09-30 06:26:58 PM

dittybopper: America wasn't necessarily sleeping in Red Dawn.


Still, point stands: if this scenario happened today, half of America would be too busy blaming the other half to do anything about it.
 
2012-09-30 09:53:58 PM

Ishkur: dittybopper: America wasn't necessarily sleeping in Red Dawn.

Still, point stands: if this scenario happened today, half of America would be too busy blaming the other half to do anything about it.


I don't think so. We tend to pull together against an outside enemy. Japan made the same mistake, thinking we were too fractured politically and socially to present a united front. They was wrong.
 
2012-10-01 12:01:39 AM

dittybopper: I don't think so. We tend to pull together against an outside enemy.


The ONLY case where this is true was Japan.

Wasn't true against Mexico, wasn't true against Spain, wasn't true against Germany, wasn't true against Vietnam or Korea, and wasn't true against Iraq (either war) or the War on Terror. America's military might rarely ever stems from its social appeal. There is vocal, outspoken, and often violent opposition to every declaration of war by Congress.
 
2012-10-01 08:14:38 AM

Ishkur: dittybopper: I don't think so. We tend to pull together against an outside enemy.

The ONLY case where this is true was Japan.

Wasn't true against Mexico, wasn't true against Spain, wasn't true against Germany, wasn't true against Vietnam or Korea, and wasn't true against Iraq (either war) or the War on Terror. America's military might rarely ever stems from its social appeal. There is vocal, outspoken, and often violent opposition to every declaration of war by Congress.


It was true against Spain, and true against Germany, and it was true for the invasion of Afghanistan.

What do all those things have in common?

Attacks (or incidents perceived as attacks) against the US. With Spain, pretty much everyone was clamoring for war after the destruction of the USS Maine. Once Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor, we went after them with a vengeance. In fact, Germany was the priority, with the defeat of Japan secondary. In 2001, there was widespread popular support for the invasion of Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks.

Similarly, an attack on the US, especially one on US soil, would have brought people together against the Soviet/Cuban invaders, just like the attack on Pearl Harbor brought the US together to fight a war that popular sentiment had been against for over 2 years. People often forget that that the majority of the people in the US didn't want to go to war in 1939, 1940, and up until the Pearl Harbor attack in December 1941. American isolationism was at it's peak: People in the US remembered the carnage of WWI, a mere 20 years earlier or so, and they wanted nothing to do with the problems in Europe, and especially not in the Pacific. The predominant opinion was one of "let them fight it out for themselves". Only a relatively few recognized the danger of that attitude, one of them being FDR, but he also had a very Euro-centric viewpoint, and Japan's actions in the Western Pacific weren't as worrisome to him as the problems in Europe.

All those factors led the Japanese leadership to believe that the US would fold pretty quickly in a real shooting war. They looked at Japanese monoculture, and saw that as a strength that the US didn't possess, not understanding that diversity is a strength, especially when presented with an outside, easily identifiable enemy.

That is the same sort of mistake that the hypothetical leadership of the Soviet Union in Red Dawn perhaps made. Look at the Wolverines themselves: Probably about as diverse as you can expect of small-town Colorado in the early 1980's: One of the Wolverines is Hispanic (Aardvark/Arturo Mondragon), two are from the wrong side of the tracks (Matt and Jed Eckert), one is the son of the town Mayor (Daryl), one is a nerd (Danny), one is a generic nobody (Robert), and two of them are young women (Toni and Erica).

I would expect that an invasion of the Continental US, along with "selected nuke strikes on key points of communication" like Omaha, Kansas City, and Washington would pretty much rally everyone around the flag, no matter what their political persuasion. You might not get the hard core pacifists toting guns, but even they would likely do *SOMETHING* to support the effort, even if it is something like sewing uniforms or the like.
 
2012-10-01 02:19:35 PM

dittybopper: It was true against Spain, and true against Germany, and it was true for the invasion of Afghanistan.


No, that's how America likes to SELL the wars: Remember the Alamo, Remember the Maine, Remember the Lusitania, Remember Pearl Harbor, Remember the Gulf of Tonkin, Remember 9/11.... always a single grievous incident to whip up a frenzy in the populace, selling the hyperbole of atrocities with help from agenda-driven media and yellow journalism. Some of them succeed, some of them fail, some of them succeed more than others. Whether they actually achieve the aim of drumming up popular American support for total war shenanigans is a vast argument that we'd have to look into for each separate case and its ramifications, and I don't have the inclination of getting into at the moment But it's a fascinating topic and definitely worth a graduate-level history thesis or two.
 
2012-10-01 03:06:30 PM

Ishkur: dittybopper: It was true against Spain, and true against Germany, and it was true for the invasion of Afghanistan.

No, that's how America likes to SELL the wars: Remember the Alamo, Remember the Maine, Remember the Lusitania, Remember Pearl Harbor, Remember the Gulf of Tonkin, Remember 9/11.... always a single grievous incident to whip up a frenzy in the populace, selling the hyperbole of atrocities with help from agenda-driven media and yellow journalism. Some of them succeed, some of them fail, some of them succeed more than others. Whether they actually achieve the aim of drumming up popular American support for total war shenanigans is a vast argument that we'd have to look into for each separate case and its ramifications, and I don't have the inclination of getting into at the moment But it's a fascinating topic and definitely worth a graduate-level history thesis or two.


I find you lumping Pearl Harbor and 9/11, actual, for-real heinous and unprovoked attacks, with phantom bogeymen like Gulf of Tonkin despicable.

Also, it wasn't really the Lusitania that brought us into WWI, it was the Zimmermann Telegram. The Lusitania was sunk on May 7th, 1915. After that, we even welcomed the German "merchant submarine" Deutschland, *TWICE* in 1916. We weren't all that worked up about the sinking of the Lusitania, because we were trading with the country that sank her, using submarines to get around the blockade set up by the United Kingdom.

It wasn't until the Zimmermann Telegram was made public in February of 1917 that US public opinion was swayed against Germany, compounded by the outright stupidity of Arthur Zimmermann in confirming that it was indeed genuine and removing any doubt about its origin*, that US public opinion became significantly pro-war. We declared war on the Entente on April 6th, 1917, just a bit more than a month after the Zimmermann Telegram was made public.

I know the Lusitania sinking gets a lot of the credit in the history books, but it really shouldn't.

*There was a significant number of people in the US who thought the telegram was a fake, a British ruse to trick the US into the war.
 
2012-10-01 04:41:11 PM

dittybopper: I find you lumping Pearl Harbor and 9/11, actual, for-real heinous and unprovoked attacks, with phantom bogeymen like Gulf of Tonkin despicable.


Yeah, it's almost as if I'm suggesting something.

Almost!
 
2012-10-01 04:43:24 PM

dittybopper: Also, it wasn't really the Lusitania that brought us into WWI,


Yes, I'm well aware of everything you're describing, but that's completely beside the point.

You're confusing actual history with reported history (and using the benefit of hindsight thereof). Two starkly different things.
 
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