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(Daily Kos)   Today's Romney gaffe of the day: "I want to bring the (tax) rates down. By the way, don't be expecting a huge cut in taxes because I'm also going to lower deductions and exemptions"   (dailykos.com) divider line 287
    More: Fail, itemized deduction, Health Care, International, romney, tax plans, taxpayer dollars, Daily Kos, income taxes, tax rates  
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3257 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Sep 2012 at 5:32 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-26 08:03:01 PM  

I alone am best: What do you think companies pay people and do things with? Profits are where 100% of their expendable income comes from.

If a company is paying less in taxes then they are making more profits.


They pay salaries on pre-tax income, not post-tax income.

Plus, ignoring tax breaks, there's a simple mathematics of income taxes - higher pre-tax profits = higher post-tax profits. If hiring 2 more workers will generate more income than those workers consume in expenses, it's worth hiring that person under *any* income tax scheme (as long as marginal rates are below 100%). An increase in pre-tax profits = an increase in post-tax profits. The strategy to maximize your post-tax income is to maximize your pre-tax income.

Conversely, if hiring 2 more workers will generate less additional income than additional expenses, it's never worth hiring them, under any tax plan.

(It gets a little trickier when you take deductions for certain kinds of activity into account - for example, tax breaks can make certain activities, e.g. installing solar panels, more economically viable than they otherwise would be).
 
2012-09-26 08:29:36 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: At rally, Romney attacks Obamacare as Exhibit #1 of Obama's philosophy. Yet mins earlier tells NBC that Romneycare is example of empathy.- Philip Rucker (@PhilipRucker) September 26, 2012

It has got to suck to have to vote for this guy.


Not a peep was heard when Romneycare went up in Massachusetts.
Obama liked it enough to take it and install it nationally completely unchanged, suddenly the right screams and froths that it's Satan's plan to destroy America.
Romney promises to repeal Romneycare then replace it with Romneycare.
"Ha ha HA, take THAT, you Socialist Secret Muslim Kenyan Usurper Negro!"

I really, honestly can't understand the reasoning, except when I remember that the right declared that their #1 and only priority was to make Obama a one-term president, no matter the cost.
 
2012-09-26 08:32:08 PM  

Isitoveryet: Usually, at least for my industry (Structural engineering), you want to make more money, hire more people! Taxation has never dictated how many people we hire.
hour for hour your income will always cover your expenses, that's just the way the rates are set up.


Sure, as long as you have enough billable work for those engineers to perform. If the new hires can't stay billable, their salary and benefit cost will eat up your profit margin in a hurry.

But you're right - in a consulting or design firm, demand (project backlog) is far more important than tax rate when it comes to hiring. We're in the business of selling labor by the hour. As long as someone is buying our time, adding qualified people adds to the profit margin. But without demand (billable projects), we're screwed.
 
2012-09-26 08:42:19 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: How is that a gaffe?
He is bringing tax rates down and reducing deductions. That means that the rich who take advantage of all these deductions will pay more an the middle class pays less. Isn't that what the left wants?



He was talking to a bunch of middle class Ohioans. You don't tell THEM they are not getting tax cuts! That's just plain stupid.

The left isn't necessarily worried about middle class tax cuts, the left wants the upper incomes to pay more and have LESS loopholes.

Like the absurd loopholes Romney has that allows him to pay ZERO taxes. 

Romney is so incoherent, so inept, so politically retarded, it's amazing he's was elected to student council, much less a Governor.
 
2012-09-26 08:42:55 PM  
If you put aside the issue of "that's big talk for the guy running for the government branch that doesn't set the tax rates and exemptions in the first place" aspect of this, this is actually the first smart thing that Romney's ever said.

I mean, you may or may not agree with him that it's a good policy, but it's a coherent policy that has some thought behind it for once, and it's not waffling about and saying nothing. Not only that, it would actually potentially financially balance itself, so it's for reals fiscal conservative for once, too.
 
2012-09-26 08:43:04 PM  
He is cutting rates to help small businessmen who count profits as personal income. He believes that lower taxes on business will magically create demand for products and lead to hiring. He is cutting deductions and exemptions to raise revenue. Taking money out of the pockets of the middle class will not have any impact on demand for products.

Or something.
 
2012-09-26 08:55:26 PM  

Shaggy_C: He is cutting rates to help small businessmen who count profits as personal income. He believes that lower taxes on business will magically create demand for products and lead to hiring. He is cutting deductions and exemptions to raise revenue. Taking money out of the pockets of the middle class will not have any impact on demand for products.

Or something.


It's this one.
 
2012-09-26 09:06:26 PM  

Three-Fifty: OMG Subby - exactly! Every time he says that I sit there with a dumbfounded look on my face trying to figure out how that is going to lead to a lower tax bill.

Mitt wants to give tax breaks with one hand, but take away tax deductions with the other.

He really thinks we are stupid, doesn't he?


The tricky part is which deductions get the axe and which remain.

Homeowner deductions - removed
Personal helicopter deduction - stays put
 
2012-09-26 09:13:49 PM  
Wow...Obama's chances with Nate Silver's analysis is freaking cruising up the charts.
 
2012-09-26 09:22:12 PM  
Stewart and Colbert can go ahead and fire their comedy writers because the jokes just write themselves. Christ Romney, even though I would never vote for you, at least try to pretend that you are a serious candidate.
 
2012-09-26 09:23:02 PM  
Before I began reading this thread I had absolutely no undertanding of finance or economics. Now I understand them perfectly. Thanks guys!

I flatter myself that I do have a fair understanding of human nature and I must admit myself bemused. Romney got the nomination by virtue of a false analogy (he knows how to run a business; therefore, he must know how to run a country) and the fact that all the other candidates almost without exception made him look rational and reasonable by comparison. And even that turns out not to be true. Romney turns out to be a liar and a hypocrite. Running on a platform of competence, he has proven himself to be utterly incompetent to run a campaign. Over and over he expresses his contempt for the 99% (or the 47% or the un-horsey set, or the non-NASCAR team-owning set). There's something fishy about every aspect of his experience and personality.In retrospect, he turns out to be, not a brilliant business executive but a rather dim upper class twit leveraging daddy's money and connections into a simulacrum of business success, the same "too connected to fail" that got GW Bush the presidency of a number of organizations he did not deserve to lead and then relentlessly drove over the financial brink.

Nevertheless, a sizable percentage of the electorate will vote for him, despite his glaring faults because... he's a repub? He's not black? He's not a Democrat? He's rich and therefore worthy of admiration? His supporters are so blinded by ideology they can't see or don't care what a disaster his presidency would be for the country in general and them in particular? I just don't get it.
 
2012-09-26 09:32:00 PM  
The saddest thing is that Romney (and the Republicans in general) keep spouting the same old tired BS about how if we lower taxes on business and the wealthy then they will hire more people.

Businesses aren't going to hire more people until there is more demand for their products. We need to stimulate demand. Yes, that means wealth redistribution to some extent. Get over it!
 
2012-09-26 09:41:54 PM  

Pincy: The saddest thing is that Romney (and the Republicans in general) keep spouting the same old tired BS about how if we lower taxes on business and the wealthy then they will hire more people.

Businesses aren't going to hire more people until there is more demand for their products. We need to stimulate demand. Yes, that means wealth redistribution to some extent. Get over it!


You're preaching to the choir over here. I never understood how anyone can take that supply side BS seriously.
 
2012-09-26 10:14:21 PM  
So... the only people who will pay less in taxes will be the people who can afford an army of accountants and financial gurus.
 
2012-09-26 10:34:55 PM  

LincolnLogolas: So... the only people who will pay less in taxes will be the people who can afford an army of accountants and financial gurus.


Reducing the amount of deductions that are available may make this more difficult for the rich as well. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

We do need the tax revenue. Alongside the spending cuts.
 
2012-09-26 10:38:34 PM  
Increasing taxation without any reigning in of spending and massive entitlement programs the Democrats love sure has worked out great for the EU....oh wait...

grandplace.eu
 
2012-09-26 10:43:46 PM  

gaspode: He is raising taxes on middle income people by closign deductions they use, and lowering taxes on high income by cutting their rates. STOP SUPPORTING THIS.


Even if that was true (which I have my doubts) I still don't get how this is a gaffe. Many may not agree with it, but that does not make it a gaffe.
 
2012-09-26 10:51:22 PM  

SouthParkCon: Increasing taxation without any reigning in of spending and massive entitlement programs the Democrats love sure has worked out great for the EU....oh wait...

[grandplace.eu image 380x298]


You don't know what austerity is, do you.
 
2012-09-26 11:05:28 PM  

HeadLever: gaspode: He is raising taxes on middle income people by closign deductions they use, and lowering taxes on high income by cutting their rates. STOP SUPPORTING THIS.

Even if that was true (which I have my doubts) I still don't get how this is a gaffe. Many may not agree with it, but that does not make it a gaffe.


It's a "gaffe" in the modern sense of the word, i.e. the Candidate said something really dumb that he obviously believes but which is still really dumb.

Like the new meaning of "context" (any quote not preceded and followed by the entire statement in which it was made) or "irony" (something funny when done by a hipster but otherwise just an everyday occurrence).
 
2012-09-26 11:08:48 PM  

SouthParkCon: Increasing taxation without any reigning in of spending and massive entitlement programs the Democrats love sure has worked out great for the EU....oh wait...

[grandplace.eu image 380x298]


Yeah, it's kinda the exact opposite of that. The EU's being destroyed by the very policies you and Will Mittens are espousing. But, y'know, keep on keeping on.
 
2012-09-26 11:09:25 PM  

Fart_Machine: SouthParkCon: Increasing taxation without any reigning in of spending and massive entitlement programs the Democrats love sure has worked out great for the EU....oh wait...

[grandplace.eu image 380x298]

You don't know what austerity is, do you.


He also doesn't know that one of the main reasons Europe is in the shape its in is because it didn't enforce its tax code in countries like Italy and Spain and Greece.

Sound familiar?
 
2012-09-26 11:11:44 PM  

SouthParkCon: Increasing taxation without any reigning in of spending and massive entitlement programs the Democrats love sure has worked out great for the EU....oh wait...

[grandplace.eu image 380x298]


Not a single country in Europe has raised taxes without cutting spending.
 
2012-09-26 11:12:31 PM  
Tax cuts for some, elimination of deductions for others! So, Mitt plans on shifting the transmission into to neutral and standing on the gas pedal so we can go nowhere really fast. Brilliant.

/Don't blame me I voted for Kodos
 
2012-09-26 11:33:42 PM  

Ego edo infantia cattus: adamgoodrich.com

/Derpers gona derp.


Oh, that's a keeper.
 
2012-09-26 11:35:53 PM  

Gyrfalcon: It's a "gaffe" in the modern sense of the word, i.e. the Candidate said something really dumb that he obviously believes but which is still really dumb.


Not sure that I agree. I don't see where this is a mistake or really dumb on his part. In the general sense, it is a shifting of the tax burden away from those that have few deductions to those that have many deductions. Not sure what is entirely stupid about this. Of course, the devil may be in the details, but there is really little in this statement that I find lacking.
 
2012-09-26 11:39:07 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: he EU's being destroyed by the very policies you and Will Mittens are espousing.


Problem is that if you keep spending with no ability to control your deficits and debt, you will be eventually destroyed anyhow. There are not many good options when you are stuck between a rock and a hard spot.
 
2012-09-26 11:46:49 PM  
His plan is exactly what Gov. Brownback has passed in KS. You'll see the results of that on April 15, 2014.
 
2012-09-27 12:05:26 AM  

theknuckler_33: Small businesses most typically pay taxes at the individual tax rate.

Is this really true? I always assumed small business owners formed a LLC or whatever and paid themselves a salary from the corporation


Sole proprietorships are far more common as small biz setups. In those cases, the business's money is essentially considered to be the owner's personal money.
 
2012-09-27 12:58:24 AM  

Pincy: The saddest thing is that Romney (and the Republicans in general) keep spouting the same old tired BS about how if we lower taxes on business and the wealthy then they will hire more people.

Businesses aren't going to hire more people until there is more demand for their products. We need to stimulate demand. Yes, that means wealth redistribution to some extent. Get over it! more unions are busted and minimum wage is abolished.

 
2012-09-27 01:05:02 AM  

theknuckler_33: Small businesses most typically pay taxes at the individual tax rate.

Is this really true? I always assumed small business owners formed a LLC or whatever and paid themselves a salary from the corporation


LLCs, partnerships, limited partnerships, and even s corps are all considred pass through so all taxes are owned by the principles.
 
2012-09-27 03:34:43 AM  

mrshowrules: Mortgage interest deductions for people with incomes from $100K to $250K. That's the popular speculation anyways (based on previous comments from Mitt). With the housing marking starting to make a come back this should help put it back in the toilet.


Obama should ask Mitt if this is what he plans to do, in the first debate, and point out that this would be a tax increase on every homeowner in the country.

Lethal.
 
2012-09-27 09:44:41 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: Romney: "I want to cut taxes for the rich, and get rid of deductions for the middle class!"

Yes, he thinks you're dumb enough to still vote for him.


Face it, lots of people will be.
 
2012-09-27 09:58:04 AM  
 
2012-09-27 09:59:22 AM  

findthefish: Wow...Obama's chances with Nate Silver's analysis is freaking cruising up the charts.


I found it very interesting that for a long time, the "NOW" analysis (if the election was today) was always a bit lower for Obama than the Nov 6 projection. The "now" % for Obama though is right now at 97% chance of winning if we voted today. Which means I think he is "tempering" the Nov 6. forecast to take into account fluctuations in state level that could happen over the next 6 weeks. But, if nothing really moves into Romney's favor, come election day, he is basically toast.
 
2012-09-27 10:55:36 AM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: I alone am best: Don't Troll Me Bro!: I alone am best: stuff

So far you've demonstrated that you don't understand:
1) Credit
2) The fundamental accounting equation
3) opportunity cost
4) How taxes decrease the incurred cost of expenses
5) How taxes impact ROI of investments in labor, services, goods, etc.
6) How taxes impact incentive to use financial leverage
7) How taxes impact optimal financial leverage point

[www.splotchy.com image 300x301] 

/seriously, I'm embarrassed for you

I'm sorry. I can't be an expert on everything.

Then why are you arguing these thins if you don't understand them?


Do you honestly think that the same people in every single thread arguing about crap are experts in said subject?

Fark, all we need is to collect three or four people from the politics thread and we can cure cancer.
 
2012-09-27 03:29:24 PM  

Three-Fifty: Mitt wants to give tax breaks with one hand, but take away tax deductions with the other.

He really thinks we are stupid, doesn't he?


His supporters ARE.
 
2012-09-27 07:52:06 PM  

I alone am best: Don't Troll Me Bro!: I alone am best: Don't Troll Me Bro!: I alone am best: stuff

So far you've demonstrated that you don't understand:
1) Credit
2) The fundamental accounting equation
3) opportunity cost
4) How taxes decrease the incurred cost of expenses
5) How taxes impact ROI of investments in labor, services, goods, etc.
6) How taxes impact incentive to use financial leverage
7) How taxes impact optimal financial leverage point

[www.splotchy.com image 300x301] 

/seriously, I'm embarrassed for you

I'm sorry. I can't be an expert on everything.

Then why are you arguing these thins if you don't understand them?

Do you honestly think that the same people in every single thread arguing about crap are experts in said subject?

Fark, all we need is to collect three or four people from the politics thread and we can cure cancer.


No, but I typically don't see someone, who obviously doesn't know the first thing about a subject, trying to take on a dozen people that all know far more than they do.
 
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