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(NFL)   NFL to address the MNF call on the last play this morning. Reversal? Fantasy Owners / Survivor poolers want to know   (nfl.com) divider line 539
    More: Followup, MNF, NFL, Golden Tate, touchback, Hail Mary, Green Bay, Seahawks, NFL.com's Steve Wyche  
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4200 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Sep 2012 at 10:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-25 12:27:03 PM
Solution: Call Vegas and tell them for 3.3mil they won't reverse the call. Then use that money to bring back the real refs
 
2012-09-25 12:27:04 PM

Harv72b: Neither player had possession at that point. "Possession" requires having some part of the body (other than hands or a single foot) touching the playing surface within the field of play.

Jennings had control of the ball first. If your argument hinges on Tate allegedly having an arm pinned between the ball and Jenning's chest, that does nothing to refute the fact that Jennings was controlling the ball...unless your argument is also that Tate demonstrated his control using that single arm to somehow pull the ball into Jenning's chest.

The rule is remarkably specific towards this precise scenario. When one player (Jennings) establishes control of the ball and another player (Tate) subsequently also establishes control of the ball, it is not an instance of simultaneous possession and the ball will be awarded to the player who first controlled it.

Good lord, this entire thread (save for a few funny comments) could have been eliminated if anyone bothered to read the thousands of posts written this morning in other threads, or watch the dozens of detailed breakdowns by real live experts on NFL rules, all of which firmly establish that the ruling on the field was incorrect


I'm at a loss. You've contradicted yourself about three times.

roc6783: Ok, at this point you're trolling me and it's working. I am going to repost svenge's breakdown as it accurately and clearly depicts the play.


IGNORE. Grow up.

Tate's LEFT hand was between Jennings and the ball.

As Jennings brought the ball down to his torso to try to control it, tate's arm was already there and Jennings managed to allow tate to cradle it with tate's left hand on the top of the ball and tate's left bicep on the bottom. As they fell to the ground, Tate's right arm also moved to cover the ball.

Simultaneous possession, Seahawks TD, end of story.

LEFT ARM. the god damn left arm doesn't get between the ball and jennings unless Tate had control AT OR BEFORE the same time that jennings got control.
 
2012-09-25 12:27:15 PM
Barley a bad call. Impossible to tell in realtime. Was expecting a lot worse for all the hype.
 
2012-09-25 12:28:36 PM

pheelix: Torgo_of_Manos: DamnYankees: There no chance in hell they reverse the call now. And they shouldn't.

Didn't they come back out and kick the extra point? By every definition I have ever heard, if the run another play, the previous call stands

Given the amount of time between the touchdown* and the extra point, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Goodell himself called the Packers' locker room and ordered McCarthy to put his team back on that field. That play was an interception, but there's nothing the Packers can do about it now except win enough games for this one not to matter.


Some talking head last night said something to the effect of "The GM of the Packers called McCarthy in the locker room and told him to get a team back out there for the PAT...NOW!!"
 
2012-09-25 12:29:27 PM

impaler: CCCarnie: Correct, but if you watch the replay again, they both went up and caught the ball at the same time. I would say that Jennings got a better hold, but Tate also caught the ball at about the same time

Wrong. Touching the ball is not control.


He was grabbing the ball... Since when is that not control?
 
2012-09-25 12:29:31 PM
Everybody wants to talk about the last call, but...

Fourth Quarter, GB with the ball.

3-5-SEA 34 -> (2:27) (Shotgun) 32-C.Benson right end to SEA 30 for 4 yards (50-K.Wright). PENALTY on SEA-39-B.Browner, Illegal Use of Hands, 5 yards, enforced at SEA 34 - No Play.

A very questionable call on third down, on the opposite side of the field from where the play actually happened, that maintains GB's possession. Do they get three points out of that otherwise?

Later in the fourth quarter, GB with the ball.

3-2-SEA 47 -> (11:31) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass incomplete short right to 88-J.Finley. PENALTY on SEA-31-K.Chancellor, Defensive Pass Interference, 8 yards, enforced at SEA 47 - No Play.

Another drive sustaining call of a curious nature (Chancellor touched the ball first) that led to GB points.

Sure, the last call is the one that will be scrutinized, but GB had points they shouldn't have. Finally, if GB gets a first down inside two-minutes when they had the ball the NFL doesn't generate the conversation everyone is having today.

/NFL wins again.
 
2012-09-25 12:29:58 PM

IAmRight: What's the definition of control as far as the NFL goes? Because, I mean, it's really hard to tell based on other plays that have been ruled incompletions (Calvin Johnson play, Troy Polamalu playoff INT vs Colts).


To my knowledge they don't bother to define "control" as it seems self-explanatory. What's throwing a lot of people off in this debate is confusing "control" with "possession"...a player can control the ball without gaining possession (as was the case in the Johnson play you mentioned, I don't recall the Polamalu play well enough to comment offhand). In Megatron's instance, the play was ruled incomplete because he did not maintain control throughout the process of making the catch. In this case, Jennings never lost control of the ball, even as Tate established joint control as they were falling to the ground.
 
2012-09-25 12:29:59 PM
When they reverse the phantom holding call (among several other awful calls) that cost the Seahawks Superbowl XL, then we can talk about reversing this one. Yes, this was an awful call, but as a lifetime Seahawk fan, I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of bad calls do not go our way. It's just part of being a Seattle sports fan; you learn to accept it.
 
2012-09-25 12:30:25 PM
As a huge Seahawks fan I am sorry to see it happen this way. I want the Hawks to win, but not at the expense of a bad call. Nobody wants this win this way.

I feel sorry for the Packer fans.
 
2012-09-25 12:30:29 PM

halfof33: the god damn left arm doesn't get between the ball and jennings unless Tate had control AT OR BEFORE the same time that jennings got control.


Unless Tate has a freakishly long left arm, he can't even touch the ball until after jennings controls.

growlersoftware.com

growlersoftware.com
 
2012-09-25 12:31:05 PM
nfl.com

In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

The result of the game is final.

Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
 
2012-09-25 12:31:16 PM

wooden_badger: FTFA
If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control," the rule states.

That strongly indicates Jennings should have been awarded a touchdown. Tate never seemed to truly gain joint control. A little known part of the rule explains why it wasn't overturned.

REALLY?


Forget it. He's rolling.
 
2012-09-25 12:31:47 PM

chevydeuce: pheelix: Torgo_of_Manos: DamnYankees: There no chance in hell they reverse the call now. And they shouldn't.

Didn't they come back out and kick the extra point? By every definition I have ever heard, if the run another play, the previous call stands

Given the amount of time between the touchdown* and the extra point, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Goodell himself called the Packers' locker room and ordered McCarthy to put his team back on that field. That play was an interception, but there's nothing the Packers can do about it now except win enough games for this one not to matter.

Some talking head last night said something to the effect of "The GM of the Packers called McCarthy in the locker room and told him to get a team back out there for the PAT...NOW!!"


It wasn't a GM, ESPN showed a ref running into the locker room to get some GB players out there.
 
2012-09-25 12:31:48 PM

deadcrickets: ESPN debunked the crap out of "simultaneous catch" last night. Including commentary from the real refs.


I'd like to see that. I'm not sure what you mean by debunked, though... Do you mean to say that this shouldn't be considered a simultaneous catch? Because you can't debunk the rule itself... It's clearly in the rulebook.
 
2012-09-25 12:31:52 PM
Official NFL statement was just read on ESPN essentially was: Nothing to see here, good call!
 
2012-09-25 12:32:08 PM
...okay, that first one was actually at the end of the third quarter.
 
2012-09-25 12:32:16 PM

halfof33: Harv72b: Neither player had possession at that point. "Possession" requires having some part of the body (other than hands or a single foot) touching the playing surface within the field of play.

Jennings had control of the ball first. If your argument hinges on Tate allegedly having an arm pinned between the ball and Jenning's chest, that does nothing to refute the fact that Jennings was controlling the ball...unless your argument is also that Tate demonstrated his control using that single arm to somehow pull the ball into Jenning's chest.

The rule is remarkably specific towards this precise scenario. When one player (Jennings) establishes control of the ball and another player (Tate) subsequently also establishes control of the ball, it is not an instance of simultaneous possession and the ball will be awarded to the player who first controlled it.

Good lord, this entire thread (save for a few funny comments) could have been eliminated if anyone bothered to read the thousands of posts written this morning in other threads, or watch the dozens of detailed breakdowns by real live experts on NFL rules, all of which firmly establish that the ruling on the field was incorrect

I'm at a loss. You've contradicted yourself about three times.


No, I didn't. But I'll give you an internet cookie if you can show me where I did even once...I'll even leave the original quote in here to facilitate your efforts. :)
 
2012-09-25 12:32:19 PM
Jesus, how many threads is IAR in at once?
 
2012-09-25 12:32:29 PM

Dogpants: Jim from Saint Paul: shiatTY REFFING HAPPENS WITH THE REGULAR REFS TOO.

So to quote everyone who ever told me that I should get over the refs being incompetent in that game: "Hey, it's your fault you were in a position to let the refs decide who would win the game".

And to quote myself: "Suck it Packer fans. HAHA."

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why, despite living in Minnesota for well over a decade, I will never, ever be a Vikings fan. Couldn't stand the idea of being associated with assholishness like this.


The Packers fans earned some of this with their fervent wishes that the Vikings starting quarterback would have a career ending injury a few years back. I used to be pretty ambiguous towards Packers fans, but that, plus their completely ridiculous reaction to the Randy Moss fake mooning incident, have put me in a mood to laugh at any misfortunes the Pack might suffer. Packers fans love to pull the "we fake own our team so we are special" BS too. That crap gets OLD.
 
2012-09-25 12:33:04 PM

CCCarnie: deadcrickets: ESPN debunked the crap out of "simultaneous catch" last night. Including commentary from the real refs.

I'd like to see that. I'm not sure what you mean by debunked, though... Do you mean to say that this shouldn't be considered a simultaneous catch? Because you can't debunk the rule itself... It's clearly in the rulebook.


ESPN debunked the notion that that individual play was a case of simultaneous possession.
 
2012-09-25 12:34:22 PM
They can't change the call at this point. Every game would drag out like some sort of patent trial. Just fix the problem and move on. The Pack will have to make up for it with the rest of the season. The Packers have had many seasons where they started out rough and did pretty well by the end of the season.
 
2012-09-25 12:34:51 PM

impaler: Unless Tate has a freakishly long left arm, he can't even touch the ball until after jennings controls.


Good, we are talking about the LEFT ARM.

In your first picture, the ball is IN FRONT of tate's left hand.

In the second the ball is behind tat's left arm at about the top of the top of Tate's head. Too long?? Hardly.

/whoever drew those red coircles over tate's RIGHT arm needs a beating.
 
2012-09-25 12:35:36 PM

Bunny Deville: Jesus, how many threads is IAR in at once?


A mega-controversial call involving the Seahawks?

This is HIS day. Share in his joy.
 
2012-09-25 12:36:38 PM
I'd like to just point out that the game has been over for over 12 hours now, and people still are not agreeing on whether it was the right call (the media has, but an argument can be made that it's because they need controversy to get readers)--the refs had basically 5 minutes during the review to decide, not hours/days. I certainly do not blame the on-field or the booth review refs for this close call, since even a day later it still looks close to many. From some angles it does certainly look like it hit Tate's hand at the same time, and they both manage to keep a hold on it the entire time, meaning, tough call to make in 5 minutes.

There were many other more obvious mistakes around the league to be so upset over this one (including earlier in this same game).

Oh, and to all who say that the second ref "was going to" waive a touchback so it counts as a touchback signal are being silly. Just because he waived for a timeout does not mean he waived for a touchback (even if he was GOING to). One can easily imply from his reaction that he didn't know what to signal for since he didn't get a good view (and was trusting his colleague next to him) but only knew to waive for a timeout. Regardless, he never signaled a touchback/interception/change of possession, so the ruling on the field was touchdown.

/I agree it easily could have been ruled an interception (and likely upheld that way if it was), but it wasn't
//That's the nature of sports and competition...you'll get over it ...be made about the other flagrant calls
 
2012-09-25 12:37:33 PM
Holy cow! Goodell is going to be fining a lot of players.

NFL players who tweeted about the game
#NFL C'MON MAN! Can't even be upset anymore. All I can do is laugh. Laugh at the #NFL for allowing America's game to come this. WOW!
- Greg Jennings (@GregJennings) September 25, 2012

13th man beat us tonight.
- Tom Crabtree (@TCrabtree83) September 25, 2012

Can't believe this.. Never seen anything like it.
- cj wilson (@cjwilson95) September 25, 2012

I love this league and love the game of football, but tonight's debacle hurts me greatly. This is NOT the league we're supposed to represent
- Drew Brees (@drewbrees) September 25, 2012

Ironic that our league punishes those based on conduct detrimental. Whose CONDUCT is DETRIMENTAL now?
- Drew Brees (@drewbrees) September 25, 2012

If the refs can do that than @jonvilma51 should be able to play next game .....
- MikeMcKenzie34ways (@MikeMcKenzie34w) September 25, 2012

As an NFL player.. knowing how much goes into this game.. Its demoralizing & hurts
- Visanthe Shiancoe (@VShiancoe) September 25, 2012

Drama. Great for business. Godspeed, Ed Hochuli.
- Arian Foster (@ArianFoster) September 25, 2012

#MNFcircus act...Gruden is right "this is wrong"
- Jimmy Graham (@TheJimmyGraham) September 25, 2012

This is what the NFL has come down to, &yet they tell you to respect the shield! Lol. But they'll try to fine us for everything thing we do.
- DARNELL DOCKETT (@ddockett) September 25, 2012

This is crazy... I'm still SMH... Can't call it!!!! Refs r a joke...they also missed that O Pass interference on Tate... 2 hand push off
- Derek Hagan(@dhagan80) September 25, 2012

Refs single handedly blew this one...
- Reggie Bush (@reggie_bush) September 25, 2012

You have the Immaculate Reception in Pittsburg with Franco Harris and then u have the Immaculate Deception from last night!
- Derrick Ward (@DerrickWard32) September 25, 2012

I had to check my TV Guide bc for a sec I thought I was watching Punk'd... I was just waiting for Ashton to pop out... Smdh
- Brian Hartline (@brianhartline) September 25, 2012

I've been saying give the refs a break but that TD call was ridicules. How do you miss that? Pop Warner refs would have gotten that right.
- Tony Gonzalez (@TonyGonzalez88) September 25, 2012

For the NFL to tell u as the fans there is nothing wrong with these officials is a slap in the face to u!!!! #ReplacementRefs
- Chris Harris (@ChrisHarrisNFL) September 25, 2012


Maybe this was his plan all along? 

Others who also commented
These replacement refs gotta go man!! Packers just got game took from them. I LOVE NFL football to much to see this type of work.
- LeBron James (@KingJames) September 25, 2012

Embarrassment for everyone at the NFL. This ref mess is costing people games and is gonna cost someone their health and a JOB soon!#shame
- Jason Taylor (@JasonTaylor) September 25, 2012

I would love to see what my reaction would be if a Mavs game ended like #MNF. #Expensive #NBAtime
- Mark Cuban (@mcuban) September 25, 2012

Crazy last play @seahawks win. Amazing game by D pass rush, special teams and heave by @dangerusswilson and @showtimetate catch! Wow.
- Paul Allen (@PaulGAllen) September 25, 2012

All @nfl fans watch the Ryder Cup this week, we got no refs. #USA
- bubba watson (@bubbawatson) September 25, 2012
 
2012-09-25 12:38:05 PM

impaler: Unless Tate has a freakishly long left arm, he can't even touch the ball until after jennings controls.

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]


To me it definitely looks like Tate grabs the ball in the first picture... It's hard to tell because of his dark gloves... But he certainly doesn't need "freakishly long arms" to be grabbing the ball.

At any rate, it's a close call and a tough one to make on the field. Did Tate grab it in the air at the same time as Jennings or slightly after him? And once it is ruled a simultaneous catch on the field, it's not reviewable. I think my opinion is that this was a difficult call to make. There are plenty of other terrible calls to pick on. I don't think this is one of them. If we have to slow down the video to single frames, zoom in, and try to figure out who has the ball... How can you expect someone to easily make that call at full speed?
 
2012-09-25 12:38:27 PM
This is really a silly debate. There are 2 sides to this "debate"

Side 1: It was clearly an interception and the refs blew the call.
Side 2: Anyone on side 2 is wrong.
 
2012-09-25 12:38:52 PM
NFL paraphrasing: "A call was made on the field...kthanxbye"
 
2012-09-25 12:39:17 PM

Marine1: NFL football was, until this season, the most well-officiated game on the face of the earth.


cdn6.wn.com
 
2012-09-25 12:40:23 PM

In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

The result of the game is final.

Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.)

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.


i.imgur.com
 
2012-09-25 12:40:26 PM
From the Facebook page of a disgruntled Packers fan:

"The officiating of last nights game was outstanding."-Helen Keller

I dislike Pete Carroll much more than I dislike the Packers. But they are both on the list. Packers got screwed badly by horrible calls.
 
2012-09-25 12:40:41 PM
As others have pointed out, the upshot of this will be defensive players batting the ball away from receivers and out of bounds instead of trying to intercept in the end zone.
 
2012-09-25 12:40:44 PM

FarkGrudge: Oh, and to all who say that the second ref "was going to" waive a touchback so it counts as a touchback signal are being silly. Just because he waived for a timeout does not mean he waived for a touchback (even if he was GOING to). One can easily imply from his reaction that he didn't know what to signal for since he didn't get a good view (and was trusting his colleague next to him) but only knew to waive for a timeout. Regardless, he never signaled a touchback/interception/change of possession, so the ruling on the field was touchdown.


I'll vouch for this part of your statement. I've seen refs who are unsure of what to call (usually completion vs. incompletion or TD vs. out of bounds at the 1) do the time-out signal with a significant delay before giving any kind of definitive call.

I still maintain that the black ref was going to call a touchback had it not been for the white ref calling it a TD, but that's unprovable.
 
2012-09-25 12:41:37 PM

Harv72b: To my knowledge they don't bother to define "control" as it seems self-explanatory.


Yeah, and catches seemed self-explanatory, too (again, see the Calvin Johnson play). I've seen Jeremy Shockey catch a ball in the end zone against the Seahawks and the second his cleats hit the ground he was hit and the ball came out. Touchdown, since all you have to do is barely touch down! Calvin Johnson catches it, lands every part of him in bounds, turns over to celebrate...no catch! Troy Polamalu catches it, does a couple of barrel rolls, then as he's running forward, knees it out of his own hand...no catch!

mentallo69: As a huge Seahawks fan I am sorry to see it happen this way. I want the Hawks to win, but not at the expense of a bad call. Nobody wants this win this way.


Though in fairness, were it not for bad calls, the Seahawks would have led the entire way.

oh_please: This is HIS day. Share in his joy.


And it involves the Packers too!

/my only regret is that they didn't screw over a team I hate with this call
 
2012-09-25 12:41:57 PM
Simultaneous reception goes to the passing team. Is that so hard to grasp?

i50.tinypic.com 

This was a close play that could have been called either way, replacement referees or not. The criticism heaped on the replacements in this instance is unwarranted.
 
2012-09-25 12:42:27 PM

halfof33: Harv72b: ***snip***
IGNORE. Grow up.

Tate's LEFT hand was between Jennings and the ball.

As Jennings brought the ball down to his torso to try to control it, tate's arm was already there and Jennings managed to allow tate to cradle it with tate's left hand on the top of the ball and tate's left bicep on the bottom. As they fell to the ground, Tate's right arm also moved to cover the ball.

Simultaneous possession, Seahawks TD, end of story.

LEFT ARM. the god damn left arm doesn't get between the ball and jennings unless Tate had control AT OR BEFORE the same time that jennings got control.


Ok, so Jennings pulls the ball into his chest and Tate's hand/arm=Tate has control, gotcha. I do not understand how you can believe that since it does not make any sense, but again, you have got to be trolling at this point.
 
2012-09-25 12:44:22 PM

FarkGrudge: I'd like to just point out that the game has been over for over 12 hours now, and people still are not agreeing on whether it was the right call (the media has, but an argument can be made that it's because they need controversy to get readers)--the refs had basically 5 minutes during the review to decide, not hours/days. I certainly do not blame the on-field or the booth review refs for this close call, since even a day later it still looks close to many. From some angles it does certainly look like it hit Tate's hand at the same time, and they both manage to keep a hold on it the entire time, meaning, tough call to make in 5 minutes.

There were many other more obvious mistakes around the league to be so upset over this one (including earlier in this same game).

Oh, and to all who say that the second ref "was going to" waive a touchback so it counts as a touchback signal are being silly. Just because he waived for a timeout does not mean he waived for a touchback (even if he was GOING to). One can easily imply from his reaction that he didn't know what to signal for since he didn't get a good view (and was trusting his colleague next to him) but only knew to waive for a timeout. Regardless, he never signaled a touchback/interception/change of possession, so the ruling on the field was touchdown.

/I agree it easily could have been ruled an interception (and likely upheld that way if it was), but it wasn't
//That's the nature of sports and competition...you'll get over it ...be made about the other flagrant calls


Not even 5 minutes. That review couldn't overturn the touchdown ruling unless it was clear that Tate didnt land in bounds or maintain possession/control of the ball, which he did.

They had from the top of the jump til they landed to decide if it was a simultaneous catch or if Jennings had full control before tate shared it.
 
2012-09-25 12:44:38 PM

Heinrich von Eckardt: Simultaneous reception goes to the passing team. Is that so hard to grasp?


Tate never received the ball, never had possession of the ball. Is that so hard to grasp?
 
2012-09-25 12:44:38 PM

JusticeandIndependence: I would love to see what my reaction would be if a Mavs game ended like #MNF. #Expensive #NBAtime
- Mark Cuban (@mcuban) September 25, 2012


I would, too. And I like Cuban and the Mavs.
 
2012-09-25 12:44:38 PM
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
 
2012-09-25 12:45:41 PM

roc6783: Ok, so Jennings pulls the ball into his chest and Tate's hand/arm=Tate has control, gotcha.


Neither has control, tie goes to the offense.

Again, if Jennings had such control, then how does Tate end up with the ball?
 
2012-09-25 12:47:33 PM

bartink: Rule 8, Section 1, A.........


You can argue until the sun burns out. But the NFL has issued a statement and agrees with the call on the field. (except the non-PI call)

In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

The result of the game is final.

Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
 
2012-09-25 12:48:29 PM

JusticeandIndependence: I would love to see what my reaction would be if a Mavs game ended like #MNF. #Expensive #NBAtime
- Mark Cuban (@mcuban) September 25, 2012


I audibly snorted when I read that.
 
2012-09-25 12:49:21 PM

roc6783: Ok, so Jennings pulls the ball into his chest and Tate's hand/arm=Tate has control, gotcha. I do not understand how you can believe that since it does not make any sense, but again, you have got to be trolling at this point.


waaahhh!! Some one disagrees with me they must be trolling. Grow up son, I said it once.

Look up the definition of SIMULTANEOUS sport. Jennings didn't have control until he pulled the ball into his body IN SO DOING Tate was able to get control with his left hand which was between the Ball and Jennings body. That was why Jennings was never able to tear the ball away from Tate.

Correct call. Seahawks 14 Packers 12.
 
2012-09-25 12:50:26 PM

svenge: FarkGrudge: Oh, and to all who say that the second ref "was going to" waive a touchback so it counts as a touchback signal are being silly. Just because he waived for a timeout does not mean he waived for a touchback (even if he was GOING to). One can easily imply from his reaction that he didn't know what to signal for since he didn't get a good view (and was trusting his colleague next to him) but only knew to waive for a timeout. Regardless, he never signaled a touchback/interception/change of possession, so the ruling on the field was touchdown.

I'll vouch for this part of your statement. I've seen refs who are unsure of what to call (usually completion vs. incompletion or TD vs. out of bounds at the 1) do the time-out signal with a significant delay before giving any kind of definitive call.

I still maintain that the black ref was going to call a touchback had it not been for the white ref calling it a TD, but that's unprovable.


I certainly agree with you that he was thinking touchback, but he immediately looked to the other ref before signalling it, telling me he wasn't entirely sure of his call (for whatever reasons)--at least not certain enough to signal touchdown. But, since he didn't override him with a later touchback signal, he clearly wasn't 100% either (how could have anyone been in their shoes?).
 
2012-09-25 12:50:58 PM

JusticeandIndependence: You can argue until the sun burns out. But the NFL has issued a statement and agrees with the call on the field. (except the non-PI call)


No shiat. I'm quoting the NFL's statement. And if you look closely at what I bolded, you might be able to figure out what I think of the call.
 
2012-09-25 12:51:31 PM

NightOwl2255: Heinrich von Eckardt: Simultaneous reception goes to the passing team. Is that so hard to grasp?

Tate never received the ball, never had possession of the ball. Is that so hard to grasp?


So you say, but you are wrong.
 
2012-09-25 12:52:24 PM

IAmRight: roc6783: Ok, so Jennings pulls the ball into his chest and Tate's hand/arm=Tate has control, gotcha.

Neither has control, tie goes to the offense.

Again, if Jennings had such control, then how does Tate end up with the ball?


Because he rips it out after the whistle? Again, the rule is who establishes control first, which Jennings does by pulling it in. A possession tie at the end of the play is completely irrelevant, since Jennings is the only one who can possess it by rule.
 
2012-09-25 12:53:25 PM

roc6783: IAmRight: roc6783: Ok, so Jennings pulls the ball into his chest and Tate's hand/arm=Tate has control, gotcha.

Neither has control, tie goes to the offense.

Again, if Jennings had such control, then how does Tate end up with the ball?

Because he rips it out after the whistle? Again, the rule is who establishes control first, which Jennings does by pulling it in. A possession tie at the end of the play is completely irrelevant, since Jennings is the only one who can possess it by rule.


Again, if Tate had punched the ball out while Jennings is still in the air, is it a fumble or an incompletion?
 
2012-09-25 12:54:17 PM

FinFangFark: NightOwl2255: I was watching ESPN this morning and on the bottom scroll it said that the league and the refs were $3.3 million apart. Didn't say if that was a week, or a month or a year. But, that can't be right. Manning makes that much a month hawking satellite TV and Buicks.

From what I understand it's equating to 100k per team per season....so yes, 3.3 million for the year.

Is it about money? Yes, but only 3 million league-wide. It's also about egos. The owners got over on the players last year, and now they want to get over on the refs.

I do blame Goodell for having no balls, but also I blame the owners. Of course the team that was screwed last night doesn't have an owner, or else he/she would be screaming for resolution with the refs.


Newsflash: Goodell is the owners' lackey.
 
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