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(NFL)   NFL to address the MNF call on the last play this morning. Reversal? Fantasy Owners / Survivor poolers want to know   (nfl.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, MNF, NFL, Golden Tate, touchback, Hail Mary, Green Bay, Seahawks, NFL.com's Steve Wyche  
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4202 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Sep 2012 at 10:34 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-25 12:06:56 PM  

jfivealive: The entire controversy wouldn't even be occuring if the refs had called the blatant offensive pass interference by tate when he pushed number 37 in the back, that's what everyone should be talking about as the blown call.


No one ever calls Off.PI on Hail Mary plays, no matter if you use real refs or potato refs.
 
2012-09-25 12:07:18 PM  

I_C_Weener: AdamK: stappawho: AdamK: stappawho: Yanks_RSJ: IAmRight: Also, NO REF SIGNALED TOUCHBACK. The signal for touchback is one arm waving over the head. Why do people keep saying that a ref signaled touchback?

He didn't get a chance to because he shifted into "hey what the fark are you doing" mode with the dipshiat who signaled touchdown.

So his arms out at his sides somehow translates into waving an arm over his head?

just stop

Great video that clearly shows Tate has the ball as they were falling on the ground.

Obviously the ref that called the TD was wrong, right???

except when he clearly doesn't from other angles

I spent some time watching the video you posted.  2 things.  First, I see two hands on the ball by Tate as he hits the ground.  Same with the Defense.  Second, the ref that makes the TD call is the one that saw it from the same angle as the replay you post...and the one that makes the....whatever he signalled...is the one with the worst line of sight...who makes it solely on what happend as the defender rolled off Tate.  I think it was the right call.  Sorry.


still not a simultaneous catch
 
2012-09-25 12:08:04 PM  

roc6783: halfof33: roc6783: ***snip***
WRONG! I am baffled by this. Tate's left arm was between the ball and jennings' chest. that is why he had possession and that is why they refs gave him the catch.

End of story.

Go to the video linked below and look at the angle at 2:34. Jennings pulls the ball into his chest establishing control. Tate's hand is touching the ball, but that is irrelevant, since by rule, merely touching the ball is not enough to establish control and if one player establishes control and maintains it through the process of the catch, then he is the only one to possess it. I am really pissed that the refs blew the call, but stop making up things to justify your incorrect point.

Go to 2:34 to see Jennings establish control


People: If his left arm is between the ball and the opposing player, that means simulataneous possession, that means the call was correct and the Seahawks win.

Think about it for a minute.
 
2012-09-25 12:09:14 PM  
I didn't stay up to watch. All I can say is wow, just wow.
 
2012-09-25 12:09:27 PM  

stappawho: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 of the NFL rulebook discusses a simultaneous catch.

"If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control," the rule states.

Jennings two hands first; Tate one hand later; Tate two hands later.

Jennings intercepted the ball.

If you want to call an incomplete along the lines of "Jennings didn't control the ball long enough", fine. Otherwise, interception for Jennings.

That doesn't address being airborne?

If someone gets two hands on the ball it's not a catch till they get two feet on the ground.


GB had two hands on the ball in the air before hitting the ground; GB and Seattle had two hands on the ball on the ground at the same time. If there is a reception it's a Green Bay interception.
 
2012-09-25 12:10:57 PM  
They should award a 4 point partial touchdown to Seattle. After the extra point it is a tie.
 
2012-09-25 12:11:22 PM  

impaler: [growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]


? looks like tate hands are underneath the ball but not even touching the ball.. so your point?
 
2012-09-25 12:11:25 PM  

roc6783: Once the play was ruled a TD, possession was automatically give to Tate. Possession, which was incorrectly given to Tate, cannot be reviewed. What was reviewed was whether or not the pass was complete, and since Tate was on the ground with the ball in his grasp, it was ruled complete.


Ah, I see. Thank you. Well perhaps the review process should be amended to also allow reviews of possession, since formally following the rule process leads to such outrageously botched calls as this one.
 
2012-09-25 12:12:19 PM  

jfivealive: The entire controversy wouldn't even be occuring if the refs had called the blatant offensive pass interference by tate when he pushed number 37 in the back, that's what everyone should be talking about as the blown call.


When was the last time you saw a PI call on a Hail Mary? I bet you could go back and review the entire play and see some Seahawks receivers getting mugged.

Again, everyone is focusing on ONE *probably* bad call. There were lots of very bad calls in that game.
 
2012-09-25 12:12:28 PM  
growlersoftware.com

growlersoftware.com

growlersoftware.com

growlersoftware.com 

Tate has possession of Jenning's right wrist.
 
2012-09-25 12:12:35 PM  

roc6783: Again, with feeling this time, touching doesn't give control. Jennings was the first to control the ball, maintained control through the process, and should have been given the interception.

Stop making things up.


If you are going to ignore the fact that Tate had possession first BECAUSE HIS LEFT ARM WAS 1. Behind the ball and 2. between the ball and the other player, I'll have to say good day to you .
 
2012-09-25 12:12:39 PM  

Peach_Fuz: They should award a 4 point partial touchdown to Seattle. After the extra point it is a tie.


I was honestly sorta hoping that would happen.
 
2012-09-25 12:12:54 PM  

roc6783: halfof33: At 50 seconds here, you can see that tate's arm is between Jennings and the ball.''

Link

Game over, Seahawks win.

Again, with feeling this time, touching doesn't give control. Jennings was the first to control the ball, maintained control through the process, and should have been given the interception.

Stop making things up.


You are making things up too.
 
2012-09-25 12:13:03 PM  

12349876: MugzyBrown: 12349876: The pro sports leagues aren't a fan of the gambling and it's been a barrier to Vegas getting a pro team.

lol

Gambing is what makes the NFL so popular. The NFL is very much a big fan of Vegas.

the NFL has taken the position that gambling on NFL games should be prohibited.

Link


which is funny, because they know deep down they would loose a huge revenue stream if they disallowed betting on NFL games (and isn't fantasy football a form of betting on the outcome and performance of the players and the NFL themselves encourage this and have their own fantasy league?)
 
2012-09-25 12:13:03 PM  

Mogani: looks like tate hands are underneath the ball but not even touching the ball.. so your point?


Jenning's clearly had first control.
 
2012-09-25 12:13:28 PM  
On the replays you can also see Tate attempting to maneuver his right hand around Jennings in an attempt to "get" the ball, indicating he NEVER had control.
 
2012-09-25 12:13:42 PM  
I think we all know what's going to happen. The NFL is going to wave their hands and say, "The replacement refs are fine. Move along. Nothing to see here." End of story.
 
2012-09-25 12:13:48 PM  

halfof33: roc6783: halfof33: roc6783: ***snip***

People: If his left arm is between the ball and the opposing player, that means simulataneous possession, that means the call was correct and the Seahawks win.

Think about it for a minute.


Ok, at this point you're trolling me and it's working. I am going to repost svenge's breakdown as it accurately and clearly depicts the play.


svenge: I'll say this only once:

1) Control of the ball is not dependent on having your feet on the ground.
2) A completed catch (or interception) requires control PLUS 2 feet in bounds
3) The Packer clearly had CONTROL of the ball first, before the Seahawk got his single arm in there.
4) The rules state "It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control."
4) By rule, that means that possession should have been award to the Packers via interception.
5) However, the white ref signaled a TD (ruling simultaneous possession) while the black ref was executing the first part of the signal for a touchback via interception call (the 2-hand overhead wave to stop the clock) but didn't do the second part (single-hand wave for touchback) due to the white ref already signalling TD.
6) The head ref (with the white hat) gave a ruling on the field of a touchdown.
7) As replays by rule cannot overturn judgment calls (like simultaneous possession), the only thing they could review is if the ball was indeed caught (as compared to falling to the ground incomplete) and if either player with the ball landed out of bounds. As neither of those two things happened, the outcome of the play must stand as called.

/Seahawks fan for 30 years.
//Happy we won, but facts are facts.

 
2012-09-25 12:13:56 PM  
The cost of bargaining with the real refs just skyrocketed.


"you want me back on the field?, my salary just doubled."
 
2012-09-25 12:14:28 PM  
I was watching ESPN this morning and on the bottom scroll it said that the league and the refs were $3.3 million apart. Didn't say if that was a week, or a month or a year. But, that can't be right. Manning makes that much a month hawking satellite TV and Buicks.
 
2012-09-25 12:14:41 PM  

HeathenHealer: On the replays you can also see Tate attempting to maneuver his right hand around Jennings in an attempt to "get" the ball, indicating he NEVER had control.


Or he was re-gripping so Jennings couldn't pull it away. But you know, read whatever you want into things.
 
2012-09-25 12:15:06 PM  

stappawho: jfivealive: The entire controversy wouldn't even be occuring if the refs had called the blatant offensive pass interference by tate when he pushed number 37 in the back, that's what everyone should be talking about as the blown call.

When was the last time you saw a PI call on a Hail Mary? I bet you could go back and review the entire play and see some Seahawks receivers getting mugged.

Again, everyone is focusing on ONE *probably* bad call. There were lots of very bad calls in that game.


Yeah I know, but that's still pretty god dam blatant offensive PI, not just trying to get elbow room
 
2012-09-25 12:15:44 PM  

NightOwl2255: I was watching ESPN this morning and on the bottom scroll it said that the league and the refs were $3.3 million apart. Didn't say if that was a week, or a month or a year. But, that can't be right. Manning makes that much a month hawking satellite TV and Buicks.


That's like arguing an extra sause charge for chicken nuggets.
 
2012-09-25 12:15:52 PM  

halfof33: People: If his left arm is between the ball and the opposing player, that means simulataneous possession, that means the call was correct and the Seahawks win.

Think about it for a minute.


Neither player had possession at that point. "Possession" requires having some part of the body (other than hands or a single foot) touching the playing surface within the field of play.

Jennings had control of the ball first. If your argument hinges on Tate allegedly having an arm pinned between the ball and Jenning's chest, that does nothing to refute the fact that Jennings was controlling the ball...unless your argument is also that Tate demonstrated his control using that single arm to somehow pull the ball into Jenning's chest.

The rule is remarkably specific towards this precise scenario. When one player (Jennings) establishes control of the ball and another player (Tate) subsequently also establishes control of the ball, it is not an instance of simultaneous possession and the ball will be awarded to the player who first controlled it.

Good lord, this entire thread (save for a few funny comments) could have been eliminated if anyone bothered to read the thousands of posts written this morning in other threads, or watch the dozens of detailed breakdowns by real live experts on NFL rules, all of which firmly establish that the ruling on the field was incorrect.
 
2012-09-25 12:15:59 PM  
Everyone relax, it's just a long overdue make-up call for this play:

images.yuku.com

Seriously, Packer fans can't acknowledge bad calls unless they are on the losing end.

/SF - That game was called poorly
//CHI - Called Fairly
///SEA - That game was called poorly.
 
2012-09-25 12:16:19 PM  
Controversial call? I don't know what you're talking about.
i125.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-25 12:16:27 PM  
Looks like that taint is golden

/who names their kid golden??
 
2012-09-25 12:17:54 PM  

tbhouston: Looks like that taint is golden

/who names their kid golden??


Well, it sounds better than "Piss Yellow" Tate.
 
2012-09-25 12:18:02 PM  

BigEd: Controversial call? I don't know what you're talking about.
[i125.photobucket.com image 300x168]


Push off? Don't know what you're talking about!
 
2012-09-25 12:18:11 PM  
of course fark is the only retard website arguing whether it was a catch or not, when the rest of the world knows that it wasnt.
 
2012-09-25 12:19:25 PM  
For those that continue to claim Jennings had posesion at the peak when he first got two hands on the ball...

If Tate punches the ball out before Jennings comes down is that a fumble then?
 
2012-09-25 12:19:25 PM  

Brother_Mouzone: of course fark is the only retard website arguing whether it was a catch or not, when the rest of the world knows that it wasnt.


I'm just here waiting for the next trampoline thread.
 
2012-09-25 12:19:36 PM  

Brother_Mouzone: of course fark is the only retard website arguing whether it was a catch or not, when the rest of the world knows that it wasnt.


If only the NFL were refereed by websites.
 
2012-09-25 12:20:16 PM  

NightOwl2255: I was watching ESPN this morning and on the bottom scroll it said that the league and the refs were $3.3 million apart. Didn't say if that was a week, or a month or a year. But, that can't be right. Manning makes that much a month hawking satellite TV and Buicks.


From what I understand it's equating to 100k per team per season....so yes, 3.3 million for the year.

Is it about money? Yes, but only 3 million league-wide. It's also about egos. The owners got over on the players last year, and now they want to get over on the refs.

I do blame Goodell for having no balls, but also I blame the owners. Of course the team that was screwed last night doesn't have an owner, or else he/she would be screaming for resolution with the refs.
 
2012-09-25 12:20:23 PM  

Droog8912: tbhouston: Looks like that taint is golden

/who names their kid golden??

Well, it sounds better than "Piss Yellow" Tate.


+eleventy
 
2012-09-25 12:20:53 PM  
As a Seahawks fan, it looked like an INT. What the official saw, though, in real time (keep in mind he didn't review it in slo mo FIRST), is that both guys went up, both guys went down with it. In his mind, it was double possession, so he signaled touchdown, which, given what he saw, was correct. What he needed after that would be evidence to overturn the call. Considering all we could see was that the Packer had it for a moment, then it was obscured for the rest of the time ... well, it wasn't enough to overturn. We can parse the rulebook and recreate the Zapruder film, but the ref had to respond in real time. Ref #2 didn't see shiat, which is why he called timeout and then looked at Ref #1, who, also not really having seen anything other than both men on the ground with the ball, signaled TD.

It was a shiatty call in the long pantheon of shiatty calls that was basically the entire 3rd and 4th quarters.

That said, I'd rather have the talk be about how Seattle completely decimated one of the team's "elite" offenses for the entire game last night.

As far as the NFL announcement, having the commish reverse the decision would be a VERY BIG slippery slope, and he could have a team crying at his doorstep every week for a reversal. I don't think it's going to happen.
 
2012-09-25 12:21:07 PM  

Harv72b: Jennings had control of the ball first.


What's the definition of control as far as the NFL goes? Because, I mean, it's really hard to tell based on other plays that have been ruled incompletions (Calvin Johnson play, Troy Polamalu playoff INT vs Colts).
 
2012-09-25 12:21:46 PM  

Brother_Mouzone: of course fark is the only retard website arguing whether it was a catch or not, when the rest of the world knows that it wasnt.


I haven't even looked at other websites but I still know you're wrong. Know how?

People still argue that the Earth is flat, and that gravity doesn't exist, and that an invisible deity plucked a chest-bone out of a man he made out of clay and used it to create a woman.

There will always be a group of people who argue against anything, regardless of the evidence to the contrary, and most of those people spend 90% of their waking hours on the internet.
 
2012-09-25 12:22:24 PM  

jfivealive: stappawho: jfivealive: The entire controversy wouldn't even be occuring if the refs had called the blatant offensive pass interference by tate when he pushed number 37 in the back, that's what everyone should be talking about as the blown call.

When was the last time you saw a PI call on a Hail Mary? I bet you could go back and review the entire play and see some Seahawks receivers getting mugged.

Again, everyone is focusing on ONE *probably* bad call. There were lots of very bad calls in that game.

Yeah I know, but that's still pretty god dam blatant offensive PI, not just trying to get elbow room


Again, when has that ever been called? Guys get jacked up all the time during those plays. They could have probably called Defensive PI too giving the Seahawks another shot.
 
2012-09-25 12:22:58 PM  
Vegas made out like bandits on that final play. Nothing is getting reversed today.
 
2012-09-25 12:22:58 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: As far as the NFL announcement, having the commish reverse the decision would be a VERY BIG slippery slope, and he could have a team crying at his doorstep every week for a reversal. I don't think it's going to happen.


Oh no, there's almost no doubt it won't happen...if it weren't for the fact that it's the Seahawks actually receiving the benefit of the doubt on a play that decides a game.
 
2012-09-25 12:23:17 PM  

Larry Mahnken: What they're going to say is that the call on the field - simultaneous catch -- was a judgement call, and that the rules do not allow replay to overturn the judgement call. As the rule on the field was that the catch was simultaneous, and the replay did not show the ball hitting the ground, the call must be upheld on review.


Exactly... all that fighting and tugging on the ball when they're on the ground is meaningless. Once the receiver's feet touched the ground, it's a touchdown, game over.

Where they blew it was the OBVIOUS missed pass interference. That should have been called, game over, and Green Bay should have won. I don't see any controversy on the TD call though.
 
2012-09-25 12:23:52 PM  

FinFangFark: NightOwl2255: I was watching ESPN this morning and on the bottom scroll it said that the league and the refs were $3.3 million apart. Didn't say if that was a week, or a month or a year. But, that can't be right. Manning makes that much a month hawking satellite TV and Buicks.

From what I understand it's equating to 100k per team per season....so yes, 3.3 million for the year.

Is it about money? Yes, but only 3 million league-wide. It's also about egos. The owners got over on the players last year, and now they want to get over on the refs.

I do blame Goodell for having no balls, but also I blame the owners. Of course the team that was screwed last night doesn't have an owner, or else he/she would be screaming for resolution with the refs.


Paul Allen frowns on your poast
 
2012-09-25 12:24:43 PM  

stonicus: Larry Mahnken: What they're going to say is that the call on the field - simultaneous catch -- was a judgement call, and that the rules do not allow replay to overturn the judgement call. As the rule on the field was that the catch was simultaneous, and the replay did not show the ball hitting the ground, the call must be upheld on review.

Exactly... all that fighting and tugging on the ball when they're on the ground is meaningless. Once the receiver's feet touched the ground, it's a touchdown, game over.


Tell that to Calvin Johnson.
 
2012-09-25 12:25:15 PM  

Harv72b: halfof33: People: ***snip***

Good lord, this entire thread (save for a few funny comments) could have been eliminated if anyone bothered to read the thousands of posts written this morning in other threads, or watch the dozens of detailed breakdowns by real live experts on NFL rules, all of which firmly establish that the ruling on the field was incorrect.


No, you cannot establish control of the ball while I have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in my tub. Wait, what's that breaking news from the rule book? You CAN establish control while another player is touching the ball? You don't say...
 
2012-09-25 12:25:27 PM  

stappawho: For those that continue to claim Jennings had posesion at the peak when he first got two hands on the ball...

If Tate punches the ball out before Jennings comes down is that a fumble then?


No, because he needs to come down first to have possession.
 
2012-09-25 12:25:50 PM  

Brother_Mouzone: of course fark is the only retard website arguing whether it was a catch or not, when the rest of the world knows that it wasnt.


If by "fark" you mean three people in denial and a couple of Vikings homers that are happy to see this happen to Green Bay, than yes, this retard website is arguing whether it was a catch or not.
 
2012-09-25 12:25:52 PM  

impaler: [growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404]

[growlersoftware.com image 720x404] 

Tate has possession of Jenning's right wrist.


Back...and to the left...
 
2012-09-25 12:26:56 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: As a Seahawks fan, it looked like an INT. What the official saw, though, in real time (keep in mind he didn't review it in slo mo FIRST), is that both guys went up, both guys went down with it. In his mind, it was double possession, so he signaled touchdown, which, given what he saw, was correct. What he needed after that would be evidence to overturn the call. Considering all we could see was that the Packer had it for a moment, then it was obscured for the rest of the time ... well, it wasn't enough to overturn. We can parse the rulebook and recreate the Zapruder film, but the ref had to respond in real time. Ref #2 didn't see shiat, which is why he called timeout and then looked at Ref #1, who, also not really having seen anything other than both men on the ground with the ball, signaled TD.


And you can't review shared possession. Did he make the wrong call? Probably. Was it this monumental failure? No. Incorrect and incompetent are two different things.

It was a shiatty call in the long pantheon of shiatty calls that was basically the entire 3rd and 4th quarters.

THAT should be the noteworthy discussion about the replacement refs; brutal performance, but I still think they can get better.

That said, I'd rather have the talk be about how Seattle completely decimated one of the team's "elite" offenses for the entire game last night.

As far as the NFL announcement, having the commish reverse the decision would be a VERY BIG slippery slope, and he could have a team crying at his doorstep every week for a reversal. I don't think it's going to happen.


All THIS.
 
2012-09-25 12:26:59 PM  

RadioAaron: Reception isn't determined until the motion is completed (player or players hit the ground.)

By the time they both hit the ground, both players had "possession."

Tie goes to the offensive receiver.

Touchdown Seahawks,.

QED.


How many people honestly believe that having a hand touching the ball = possession?
 
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