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(CNN)   Columnist says Nazi hunting is still a worthy pursuit, mostly because you can just go to a German graveyard, point at some random graves from the 1940s, yell "FOUND 'EM", and spend the rest of the day drinking   (cnn.com) divider line 260
    More: Interesting, Nazis, nazi war criminals, accessory to murder, passage  
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4431 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Sep 2012 at 6:54 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-25 06:56:23 AM
Gotta catch 'em all
 
2012-09-25 07:00:39 AM
Cause the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.
 
2012-09-25 07:07:29 AM
Indeed it is.

Interestingly enough, Greece apparently has a real Sons of Anarchy.
 
2012-09-25 07:07:31 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: Cause the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.


i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-09-25 07:08:47 AM
The comments section is awesome. It just looks like one Anti-Semite holding court.
 
2012-09-25 07:09:46 AM
Yay, it's like punishing Penn St. football players for having played for a team that once had coaches who did bad things to people.

Godwin's Law has become irrelevant now.
 
2012-09-25 07:13:57 AM
Try not to bring up the war.
 
2012-09-25 07:18:09 AM
Except the Nazis never won the legislature (Reichstag); they got their majority by physically removing the Communists. They never ran the country with popular approval; more than half of Germany was intimidated into silence. If you point to a random grave from the 1940s, you don't even have a coin's chances of being right.
 
2012-09-25 07:18:55 AM
But will we be doing the same to the israeleans involved with clusterbombing the palestenians?
 
2012-09-25 07:21:05 AM
robert44

I find it amazing of the 60 million people who died in WWII
and all i hear is 6million Jews ,its just typical that there is such hype to remember the Holocaust, so we should forget the other 52m
what about the Russians and the polish community suffered for decades when they were sold
out by the allies, how about the Horrific carpet bombing over Germany all those defenseless
people randomly bombed in late 1945.. for what ? I think the German people Have paid
there dues and we need to move on , the real joke is the Jews are 'doing to the Palestinians
What the Nazis Did to them. As far as hunting war Criminals maybe you should start by
pulling the plug on a Ariel Sharon..
Like
Reply


Oh my.
 
2012-09-25 07:25:38 AM
This article was not about a new Indiana Jones movie.
/Disappointed
 
2012-09-25 07:26:07 AM
he seems like an impartial arbiter.

next, i think i'll ask a MADD mother whose child was killed in a drunk driving accident about drunk driving laws.
 
2012-09-25 07:29:29 AM
Silly subby, that's not Nazi hunting, that's Nazi scavenging.
 
2012-09-25 07:30:32 AM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the columnist is a Jew.

Should I click the link?
 
2012-09-25 07:31:31 AM

MyNameIsMofuga: This article was not about a new Indiana Jones movie.
/Disappointed


Really? Most people would be relieved.
 
2012-09-25 07:33:53 AM
Prosecute low-level officers who were following orders when they were 20 years old and are now 90 years old? Sounds like a productive use of everyone's time and money.
 
2012-09-25 07:34:04 AM
They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.
 
2012-09-25 07:34:14 AM
i stopped reading when he tossed out the phrase "righteous gentile"
 
2012-09-25 07:34:19 AM
Public Savant: But will we be doing the same to the israeleans involved with clusterbombing the palestenians?

OMG ANTI-SEMITE!!! BEAR WITNESS!! BEAR WITNESS!!! NEVAR AGAIN!!!
 
2012-09-25 07:37:15 AM
JeffDudeLebowski: They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.


No. Do we hear much about Cambodia or Rwanda, today, even though they are MUCH more recent?
 
2012-09-25 07:38:03 AM
It's always a worthy pursuit

www.3drealms.com
 
2012-09-25 07:42:11 AM
Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.
 
2012-09-25 07:45:06 AM
Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?
 
2012-09-25 07:49:13 AM

Deep Contact: Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?


He died in 1958 silly!
 
2012-09-25 07:51:30 AM

Flamethrowing_Troll: JeffDudeLebowski: They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.

No. Do we hear much about Cambodia or Rwanda, today, even though they are MUCH more recent?


Do you favor the idea of trying to bring the perpetrators of the massacres in Cambodia and Rwanda to justice?
 
2012-09-25 07:52:57 AM
Good. We have no statute of limitations on murder and that is what this was on a huge scale.
 
2012-09-25 07:53:32 AM
We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."
 
2012-09-25 07:55:28 AM
Meh. We had this discussion the other day.
Another link to bring trolls to bring clicks.
Looks like a cuervo cue moment.
 
2012-09-25 07:55:43 AM

casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."


Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?
 
2012-09-25 07:55:54 AM

tirob: Flamethrowing_Troll: JeffDudeLebowski: They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.

No. Do we hear much about Cambodia or Rwanda, today, even though they are MUCH more recent?

Do you favor the idea of trying to bring the perpetrators of the massacres in Cambodia and Rwanda to justice?


ooo oooo ooo ooo...I know this one Mr. Kotter!!!!!

"YES"
 
2012-09-25 07:57:50 AM

Flamethrowing_Troll: Public Savant: But will we be doing the same to the israeleans involved with clusterbombing the palestenians?

OMG ANTI-SEMITE!!! BEAR WITNESS!! BEAR WITNESS!!! NEVAR AGAIN!!!


A BEAR? WHERE?
 
2012-09-25 07:59:04 AM
That little kerfuffle known as the "Final Solultion" aside, I really want the ones who bombed us at Pearl Harbor to pay!
 
2012-09-25 08:01:06 AM

Flamethrowing_Troll: JeffDudeLebowski: They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.

No. Do we hear much about Cambodia or Rwanda, today, even though they are MUCH more recent?


Meh. Brown/yellow people don't count.
 
2012-09-25 08:01:15 AM

Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?


For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.
 
2012-09-25 08:03:50 AM

casual disregard: Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?

For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.


It's simple really, kill all the bad people.
 
2012-09-25 08:08:04 AM

casual disregard: For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.


Oh no, I agree but it's such a delicate thing these days. I mean really the only way to stop a genocide is to invade and kill or capture the people who are committing the genocide which the international community would now agree with. Kind of a sh*t situation really.
 
2012-09-25 08:18:09 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.


I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Flamethrowing_Troll: No. Do we hear much about Cambodia or Rwanda, today, even though they are MUCH more recent?


Well, they have been hunting down the big ticket guys from Bosnia, at least. That I'm in favor of.
 
2012-09-25 08:19:21 AM
Not really doing themselves any favors with arresting invalids that have a few painful years at most left on the planet.
 
2012-09-25 08:24:02 AM

cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.


Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.
 
2012-09-25 08:28:08 AM
Where's the Dumbass tag when you need it. Any surviving Nazi war criminals would be between 90 and 110 years old. There cannot be more than a handful of them left. What purpose does it serve at this point to hunt them down and prosecute them. It's a rhetorical question, since the answer is none.

Of course, the object of the FA is not a columnist, but Dr. Efraim Zuroff, a Nazi hunter with the Israeli office of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. He has a vested interest ($$) in continuing to hunt down Nazis.

WWII ended 67 years ago and the Nazis have been brought to justice. It's time for the Jewish people to stop looking at themselves as victims. They have other, much more important problems to concentrate on.
 
2012-09-25 08:28:42 AM
BoxOfBees: Prosecute low-level officers who were following orders when they were 20 years old and are now 90 years old? Sounds like a productive use of everyone's time and money.

You know what? It is. Because showing potential evildoers today that they'll be pursued until they're 90 years old or dead might make them reconsider doing evil things. Sort of like how prosecuting Nixon might have prevented Cheney & Company from running our country into the toilet for personal gain.

/Yes, I reverse-Godwinned the thread. I make no apologies.
 
2012-09-25 08:30:19 AM
Is it safe?

t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-09-25 08:36:55 AM

Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.


Bullshait. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that prosecuting people who would have been shot if they refused is in any way just or appropriate. You can't hold ground level soldiers to the standard of your idyllic world where they refuse any evil order even when that would have resulted in their own death. This isn't your cub scout troop here- even if they pretty rapidly were shocked by the horrible stuff the SS was doing and wanted out, any act against their superiors would probably resulted in summary execution. You gonna hunt people down 70 years after the fact for being cowards? I don't think it's in any way appropriate to put anyone on trial who doesn't have any power to actually change things.

Go after the leaders, fine, but they're all dead. But at this point in time, going after the small fry does absolutely no good, and really rather disgusts me as somebody who cares about the rule of law. Yes, the Holocaust was unimaginably evil. Remember it, honor it, and allow it to pass into history. The war is over, and we won. I think we can allow some level of forgiveness at this point, even for somebody who played a very small role in an unspeakable evil.
 
2012-09-25 08:37:57 AM

Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.


Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.
 
2012-09-25 08:37:59 AM

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Flamethrowing_Troll: Public Savant: But will we be doing the same to the israeleans involved with clusterbombing the palestenians?

OMG ANTI-SEMITE!!! BEAR WITNESS!! BEAR WITNESS!!! NEVAR AGAIN!!!

A BEAR? WHERE?


The second part of my first name means bear, so HERE!! HERE!!1!
 
2012-09-25 08:38:33 AM

cptjeff: Bullshait. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that prosecuting people who would have been shot if they refused is in any way just or appropriate


I just got done explaining to you that these were not normal soldiers. They have been going after SS guards. These are the guys who enjoyed their jobs.
 
2012-09-25 08:38:41 AM
How do "ordinary people" get roped in to doing horrible things?

Easy Google
Miligram Experiment
Sanford Prison Experiment

If you are (1) unfortunate enough to be presented with the opportunity to be an asshole plus (2) sadistic or weak-minded enough to participate, then sucks to be you, I suppose. Take your punishment.

The problem is that by nature the majority of human beings fall into (2). We clearly have some evolving to do, fellow humans.
 
2012-09-25 08:40:38 AM

Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.


I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse
 
2012-09-25 08:41:20 AM

Barricaded Gunman: BoxOfBees: Prosecute low-level officers who were following orders when they were 20 years old and are now 90 years old? Sounds like a productive use of everyone's time and money.

You know what? It is. Because showing potential evildoers today that they'll be pursued until they're 90 years old or dead might make them reconsider doing evil things. Sort of like how prosecuting Nixon might have prevented Cheney & Company from running our country into the toilet for personal gain.

/Yes, I reverse-Godwinned the thread. I make no apologies.


Do you really think that the fear of prosecution 70 years down the road is in any way a factor for guys who live their lives with a significant chance that their rivals or opponents will kill them any day in a gruesome manner? That's the same argument advocates of the death penalty use, deluding themselves to believe that somehow kingpins of drug cartels are afraid of the possibility of being killed very peacefully in prison after a very long, drawn out trial. They live their lives with a much higher risk of gruesome death every day.
 
2012-09-25 08:43:14 AM

Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: Bullshait. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that prosecuting people who would have been shot if they refused is in any way just or appropriate

I just got done explaining to you that these were not normal soldiers. They have been going after SS guards. These are the guys who enjoyed their jobs.


Can you prove that in the case of every individual soldier? Or are you assuming that (see Subtle_Canary's post)? Because I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and that's not a legitimate prosecution, that's a witch hunt.
 
2012-09-25 08:43:34 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: How do "ordinary people" get roped in to doing horrible things?

Easy Google
Miligram Experiment
Sanford Prison Experiment

If you are (1) unfortunate enough to be presented with the opportunity to be an asshole plus (2) sadistic or weak-minded enough to participate, then sucks to be you, I suppose. Take your punishment.

The problem is that by nature the majority of human beings fall into (2). We clearly have some evolving to do, fellow humans.


We can choose to be better. We are frequently educated not to be.
 
2012-09-25 08:45:46 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.

I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse


You would, if you had been a German soldier under the command of the Third Reich and controlled by the SS. Your application of your American sensibility that you are bound only to follow lawful orders would have resulted in your having been summarily shot and your family sent to the concentration camp in 1942. Don't be so smug about things you have never experienced. The enlisted soldiers of Nazi Germany, who grudgingly followed their orders, should not be held accountable for the orders of their superiors.
 
2012-09-25 08:46:31 AM

cptjeff: Can you prove that in the case of every individual soldier? Or are you assuming that (see Subtle_Canary's post)? Because I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and that's not a legitimate prosecution, that's a witch hunt.


I was more using the link that was on the main page yesterday as an example. I didn't see his/her post.
 
2012-09-25 08:50:27 AM

JackieRabbit: You would, if you had been a German soldier under the command of the Third Reich and controlled by the SS. Your application of your American sensibility that you are bound only to follow lawful orders would have resulted in your having been summarily shot and your family sent to the concentration camp in 1942. Don't be so smug about things you have never experienced. The enlisted soldiers of Nazi Germany, who grudgingly followed their orders, should not be held accountable for the orders of their superiors.


Look, I was stationed in Germany for two years and I spoke with a lot of Germans who had grandfathers who were forced to fight. There is a huge difference between being forced to fight in the war and supposedly forced to guard a concentration camp. Being forced to fight on the Eastern front is way different than being an armed guard at a camp that's sole purpose was mass murder. They wouldn't just put some common foot soldier on that post, they were smarter than that. Too much to risk if you put someone not committed at that post.
 
2012-09-25 08:50:59 AM
Hogan?
 
2012-09-25 08:53:59 AM

harbingerofdoom: i stopped reading when he tossed out the phrase "righteous gentile"


As someone of Jewish heritage I found that offensive. Yes, let's classify people by their "ethnicity"... that *always* works out for the best. The author is an asshole.
 
2012-09-25 08:54:44 AM

G.I.R.B.: Deep Contact: Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?

He died in 1958 silly!


No, Hitler dies in Argentina in 1962.

No, really.
 
2012-09-25 08:55:38 AM

JackieRabbit: Where's the Dumbass tag when you need it. Any surviving Nazi war criminals would be between 90 and 110 years old. There cannot be more than a handful of them left. What purpose does it serve at this point to hunt them down and prosecute them. It's a rhetorical question, since the answer is none.

Of course, the object of the FA is not a columnist, but Dr. Efraim Zuroff, a Nazi hunter with the Israeli office of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. He has a vested interest ($$) in continuing to hunt down Nazis.

WWII ended 67 years ago and the Nazis have been brought to justice. It's time for the Jewish people to stop looking at themselves as victims. They have other, much more important problems to concentrate on.


People everywhere tend to react badly when their parents and grandparents are murdered. Hell, George W Bush even invaded Iraq partly because Saddam Hussein *tried* to kill his father. But thank you for the lesson in morality.
 
2012-09-25 08:55:58 AM
www.deutschmusikland.com
Approves.
 
2012-09-25 08:57:52 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.

I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse


Then you are a fool. If 15 years from now the Iraq War is deemed an illegal war of occupation and the administration and, more importantly, the ALL VOLUNTEER FORCES THAT OCCUPIED IT, are all brought on charges, you gonna say you refused to go? No, because you didnt, you went overseas just like everyone else does, did your duty and came home expecting that as the winner that kind of shiat dont affect you.
 
2012-09-25 08:59:55 AM
He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.
 
2012-09-25 09:02:36 AM

Subtle_Canary: Then you are a fool. If 15 years from now the Iraq War is deemed an illegal war of occupation and the administration and, more importantly, the ALL VOLUNTEER FORCES THAT OCCUPIED IT, are all brought on charges, you gonna say you refused to go? No, because you didnt, you went overseas just like everyone else does, did your duty and came home expecting that as the winner that kind of shiat dont affect you.


If you can't differentiate between a Holocaust and a ground war, I don't know what to tell you
 
2012-09-25 09:04:29 AM
I agree with everyone, it's time to let it go. These guys may have stood by and let people die but so have a ton of other people who are still out there and can be brought to justice more practically than a bunch of 90 year olds. The article writer is just an over zealous Jew.
 
2012-09-25 09:08:40 AM

Phinn: G.I.R.B.: Deep Contact: Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?

He died in 1958 silly!

No, Hitler dies in Argentina in 1962.

No, really.


So they would like you to think. I heard he's working at the Kalamazoo Burger King.
 
2012-09-25 09:09:58 AM

Tat'dGreaser: JackieRabbit: You would, if you had been a German soldier under the command of the Third Reich and controlled by the SS. Your application of your American sensibility that you are bound only to follow lawful orders would have resulted in your having been summarily shot and your family sent to the concentration camp in 1942. Don't be so smug about things you have never experienced. The enlisted soldiers of Nazi Germany, who grudgingly followed their orders, should not be held accountable for the orders of their superiors.

Look, I was stationed in Germany for two years and I spoke with a lot of Germans who had grandfathers who were forced to fight. There is a huge difference between being forced to fight in the war and supposedly forced to guard a concentration camp. Being forced to fight on the Eastern front is way different than being an armed guard at a camp that's sole purpose was mass murder. They wouldn't just put some common foot soldier on that post, they were smarter than that. Too much to risk if you put someone not committed at that post.


Oh, yes, the would and they did. No one wanted to work in the concentration camps, not even most of the officers. It wasn't cushy duty; it was rather horrific. You spoke to Germans whose grandfathers fought in the war. I have spoken to actual German soldiers who fought in the war. Serving in the German military was not a pleasant experience for anyone. Serving under the control of the SS was to live in constant fear. One mistake, one suspicious association, one seemingly harmless remark could result in execution or, worse, been sent to a concentration camp yourself.
 
2012-09-25 09:11:51 AM
Hunting Nazis can be tough. There's the old stereotype that you can't find a single ex-Nazi or someone who had Nazis for relatives in Germany/Austria. To talk to Germans you'd think the Nazi party consisted entirely of Hitler and maybe three other guys.

We had an Austrian engineer working with us as a consultant years ago. Nice guy, very smart. Talked about how his father was a tank commander in WWII but he WASN'T a Nazi. Later showed us a picture of his father in his tank...

... wearing a SS uniform.
 
2012-09-25 09:11:52 AM

tender: robert44

I find it amazing of the 60 million people who died in WWII
and all i hear is 6million Jews ,its just typical that there is such hype to remember the Holocaust, so we should forget the other 52m
what about the Russians and the polish community suffered for decades when they were sold
out by the allies, how about the Horrific carpet bombing over Germany all those defenseless
people randomly bombed in late 1945..

Oh my.


I'm reminded of the old joke;

"When I take over i'm going to slaughter 6 million Jews and one Clown!"

"Why the Clown?'

"Do you see! No one ever remembers the Jews!"
 
2012-09-25 09:19:18 AM

Tat'dGreaser: JackieRabbit: You would, if you had been a German soldier under the command of the Third Reich and controlled by the SS. Your application of your American sensibility that you are bound only to follow lawful orders would have resulted in your having been summarily shot and your family sent to the concentration camp in 1942. Don't be so smug about things you have never experienced. The enlisted soldiers of Nazi Germany, who grudgingly followed their orders, should not be held accountable for the orders of their superiors.

Look, I was stationed in Germany for two years and I spoke with a lot of Germans who had grandfathers who were forced to fight. There is a huge difference between being forced to fight in the war and supposedly forced to guard a concentration camp. Being forced to fight on the Eastern front is way different than being an armed guard at a camp that's sole purpose was mass murder. They wouldn't just put some common foot soldier on that post, they were smarter than that. Too much to risk if you put someone not committed at that post.


Goal posts. You're moving them.
 
2012-09-25 09:23:57 AM

Tat'dGreaser: If you can't differentiate between a Holocaust and a ground war, I don't know what to tell you


Except there was more than a ground war, there was also systematic torture of suspects, siding with the Shi'a in the ethnic cleansing of significant areas of several major cities (aka "The Surge"), etc. If you think the Iraq War/occupation was clean of any wrong doing that just might come back and haunt some people, if the US superpower status is lost sometime down the road and the US can no longer hold itself outside international law, then you probably think Saddam was behind 9/11.

Anything like the Holocaust? Of course not, but the Holocaust isn't considered the minimum level to count as a war crime.
 
2012-09-25 09:25:46 AM
Sorry, but if you're claiming to be an instrument of justice, and ignore all other the war criminals who have committed their crimes only a few years ago and a few hundred miles away, so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself.
 
2012-09-25 09:34:58 AM
Anyone who knowingly and willing participates in an atrocity like the Holocaust deserves to be pursued to the ends of the Earth until they drop dead. They should get due process -- a soldier who merely guarded the gate of Auschwitz should be punished less severely than, say, Himmler -- but they should not get a pass because of old age, and their shame should outlive them.

That said, in five years, ten at the very most, this will be an academic argument as far as the Third Reich is concerned.
 
2012-09-25 09:38:44 AM
Anyone here ever visted afghan mass graves dot org?
Because that is a fairly interesting site.
 
2012-09-25 09:40:49 AM

Phinn: G.I.R.B.: Deep Contact: Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?

He died in 1958 silly!

No, Hitler dies in Argentina in 1962.

No, really.


I heard he lived in Indonesia after the war with Eva. The real story how he escaped the bunker would be cool to know.
The made up story that everyone in the bunker stuck to just shows how loyal they were to him to the end.
 
2012-09-25 09:52:22 AM
Sheesh.
C'mon, man, get over it already. It was, like, years ago.
 
2012-09-25 09:57:38 AM
cdn.thegloss.com

Found one!
 
2012-09-25 09:59:08 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.

I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse


Just hope nothing you did yesterday becomes a war crime in 50 years.
 
2012-09-25 10:02:17 AM
There = a location
Their = indicates possession
They're = They + are

Rampant misuse this morning.

/needs more coffee
 
2012-09-25 10:04:00 AM

Broktun: [cdn.thegloss.com image 560x375]

Found one!

There is a large difference between a kid working in an AAA unit and an actual war criminal.
 
2012-09-25 10:05:56 AM

This text is now purple: Tat'dGreaser: Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.

I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse

Just hope nothing you did yesterday becomes a war crime in 50 years.


It is not that people are just deciding some 60 years later that what the Nazis did constituted a war crime. That determination was made in 1946.
 
2012-09-25 10:06:27 AM

cptjeff: Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: Bullshait. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that prosecuting people who would have been shot if they refused is in any way just or appropriate

I just got done explaining to you that these were not normal soldiers. They have been going after SS guards. These are the guys who enjoyed their jobs.

Can you prove that in the case of every individual soldier? Or are you assuming that (see Subtle_Canary's post)? Because I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and that's not a legitimate prosecution, that's a witch hunt.


If they were members of the SS, it stands to reason they knew what the SS was.

It's only a "witch hunt" if you're comparing it to 3 crones huddled over a bubbling cauldron (with a nearby book on spells and witchcraft and a well-stocked pantry of eye of newt, toe of frog, etc) being called witches.
 
2012-09-25 10:07:31 AM
"Reaching the age of 85 or 90 does not turn a mass murderer into a Righteous Gentile."

(emphasis mine)

Oh. I see. This is religious.
 
2012-09-25 10:07:51 AM

vudukungfu: Anyone here ever visted afghan mass graves dot org?
Because that is a fairly interesting site.


Just did. Thanks for the heads up.
 
2012-09-25 10:08:10 AM
If your job is Chief Nazi Hunter, then I suppose it is.

I have a hammer and you are looking like a nail.
 
2012-09-25 10:08:46 AM

MAYORBOB: casual disregard: Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?

For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.

It's simple really, kill all the bad people.


Ahh, yes. Killing in the name of peace.
 
2012-09-25 10:11:27 AM
Armenians envy how the jews have managed to commodify and sell thier brand of persecution to the rest of the world.

Seriously, take your self-righteous, hippocritical arguments and shove them up your ass. You don't care about genocide unless it was the jews who were affected. And no, your suffering was not the worst in the world. The goverment of Israel gave political support to the Turkish denial of the Armenian genocide by lobbying congress on thier behalf through AIPAC (back before the gaza flotilla incident).

Go fark yourself, Israel.
 
2012-09-25 10:11:34 AM

Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.


But at some point the evidence against them is, well, thin.

We may know that Sturmmann Fritz Oberweeble was assigned to Auschwitz, but without some particularized evidence that points to them actually, you know, doing something other than shining the commandants boots or the like, then seems to me that prosecuting them is problematic. Yes, we don't have a statute of limitations on horrific crimes, but we also don't believe in collective punishment, and that a conviction should be because the person has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Just being in the vicinity of a massive crime against humanity isn't enough.

If you find someone that you specific evidence that they acted in a manner contrary to the laws of war, by all means prosecute them. If all you got was "he was within a mile and a half of the gas chambers when this happened", and you don't have any evidence he interacted with any of the people kept or killed there, then that's an awful lot of reasonable doubt that he committed an actual crime, other than being a Nazi.
 
2012-09-25 10:12:05 AM

This text is now purple: Tat'dGreaser: Subtle_Canary: Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.

I'm sorry but as a soldier I'm not buying the "I was following orders" excuse

Just hope nothing you did yesterday becomes a war crime in 50 years.


"In 50 years?" You do know that the initial war crimes trials started the year the war ended, right?

There's a reason that the Wannsee Conference and all related Nazi policies used euphemisms and never directly said "KILL THOSE JEWS." They knew what they were doing could result in their prosecution after the war.
 
2012-09-25 10:13:01 AM

Snort: If your job is Chief Nazi Hunter, then I suppose it is.

I have a hammer and you are in a bag full of nails and looking like a nail.

 
2012-09-25 10:14:09 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Sorry, but if you're claiming to be an instrument of justice, and ignore all other the war criminals who have committed their crimes only a few years ago and a few hundred miles away, so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself.



The man is an instrument of justice. His focus is on Nazi War Criminals. The organization that he works for has devoted itself to tracking down Nazi War Criminals since WWII ended. Just because you think he should branch out makes no difference at all.

Your notion that he is an instrument of revenge is ignorant. The people he chases were responsible for horrendous crimes. The fact that he is Jewish has no impact on the nobility of his work. Would you think it was a noble cause if the guy was a Lutheran?
 
2012-09-25 10:14:43 AM
my biggest problem at this point is that a lot of the evidence is getting more and more thin. with age, its harder to identify them from old time photos, DNA wasn't a thing back then and eyewitness testimony is unreliable minutes after a crime (let alone decades.) Getting the ringleaders and major players is important, but i don't want to see someone prosecuted in their twilight years because of half remembered faces and old documentation saying they worked at a death camp- and then have it turn out they were assigned to the motor pool, or the chow line or even that the document was just wrong (especially in the cases later in the war when the germans efficient systems started to break down)
 
2012-09-25 10:15:23 AM

loki see loki do: He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.


Incorrect. He was convicted, but his conviction was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court.
 
2012-09-25 10:16:52 AM

wedun: Armenians envy how the jews have managed to commodify and sell thier brand of persecution to the rest of the world.

Seriously, take your self-righteous, hippocritical arguments and shove them up your ass. You don't care about genocide unless it was the jews who were affected. And no, your suffering was not the worst in the world. The goverment of Israel gave political support to the Turkish denial of the Armenian genocide by lobbying congress on thier behalf through AIPAC (back before the gaza flotilla incident).

Go fark yourself, Israel.


so go get yourself a PR firm and then STFU.

You want to focus on the Armenian genocide and condemn Jews for focusing on their own. Seems you are just as bad as you think that they are,
 
2012-09-25 10:20:15 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Not really doing themselves any favors with arresting invalids that have a few painful years at most left on the planet.


The problem is people still demand accountability for these kinds of crimes. Punishment must be metered out.
If the western allies caught these guys in their day, they would likely have had a sack thrown over their heads and been dumped in the nearest river.
Taking them to court seems respectful enough, considering their age.

I shudder to think what the Russians did to the ones they found.
I suspect many got a short trial followed by being gunned down in a snow covered field somewhere.

/Obviously some exceptions for those with technical skills.
/But the end result could still vary wildly between east and west.
/Like "Picnicking in Florida" VS "Dying in a Siberian Gulag" different.
 
2012-09-25 10:21:18 AM
The government of Armenia does not, as part of its policy, support denial of the Holocaust for no other reason than self-interest.

Israel, on the other hand, assisted Turkey in maintaining thier position that there was no Armenian Genocide because they didn't want to upset "thier only muslim ally".

Both sides are not the same.

/idiot
 
2012-09-25 10:22:23 AM

MAYORBOB: casual disregard: Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?

For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.

It's simple really, kill all the bad people.


And Bad = Not My People
 
2012-09-25 10:22:39 AM
lh6.googleusercontent.com
Enjoys killin' nahtzies.
 
2012-09-25 10:23:41 AM
So.. once they are all dead, and their children are all dead...what will you do, nights? What will do you?
 
2012-09-25 10:24:29 AM

dittybopper: Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.

But at some point the evidence against them is, well, thin.

We may know that Sturmmann Fritz Oberweeble was assigned to Auschwitz, but without some particularized evidence that points to them actually, you know, doing something other than shining the commandants boots or the like, then seems to me that prosecuting them is problematic. Yes, we don't have a statute of limitations on horrific crimes, but we also don't believe in collective punishment, and that a conviction should be because the person has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Just being in the vicinity of a massive crime against humanity isn't enough.

If you find someone that you specific evidence that they acted in a manner contrary to the laws of war, by all means prosecute them. If all you got was "he was within a mile and a half of the gas chambers when this happened", and you don't have any evidence he interacted with any of the people kept or killed there, then that's an awful lot of reasonable doubt that he committed an actual crime, other than being a Nazi.


I would suggest that you read a few books on the subject of death camps. The members of the SS who worked at the camp were complicit in actual crimes. They are participated in the activities. Even the guy working in the infirmary was committing crimes. A man working on a guard tower one day might be working at the gas chambers the next.
 
2012-09-25 10:28:11 AM
I see chuckufarlie white knighting for collective punishment. Not a big suprise. hey! it looks like those palestinians really want to be treated like human beings, maybe you should bomb them with white phosphorus again.
 
2012-09-25 10:28:25 AM

tlchwi02: my biggest problem at this point is that a lot of the evidence is getting more and more thin. with age, its harder to identify them from old time photos, DNA wasn't a thing back then and eyewitness testimony is unreliable minutes after a crime (let alone decades.) Getting the ringleaders and major players is important, but i don't want to see someone prosecuted in their twilight years because of half remembered faces and old documentation saying they worked at a death camp- and then have it turn out they were assigned to the motor pool, or the chow line or even that the document was just wrong (especially in the cases later in the war when the germans efficient systems started to break down)


SS members did not work on the chow line, in the motor pool are any such work. Their focus was killing inmates. As for your idea that the efficiency of the German system broke down, read a book. The efficiency of German record keeping did not break down until the last months of the war. By that time, the death camps were no longer operating.
 
2012-09-25 10:28:37 AM
Personally I disagree with the Nuremberg ruling that "following orders" isn't valid. I agree it isn't excuse, but I'd argue it provides mitigating circumstances. If you're some 20 year old guard and fail to do your job in Nazi Germany, odds are you get two bullets to your head. Then the Gestapo goes out and grabs your family and does unpleasant stuff to your family. That way the guy they get to replace does his job.

When the central government is busy planning atrocities, they tend to ensure they get carried out via the threat of reprisal against their own expandable grunts. The average person didn't tell Stalin, Hitler, or Mao "No" when asked to do something. Of course the average person never really did interact with any of those, rather you didn't tell the Gestapo, the KGB, or the Red Guard "no".

IMHO we should identify and hunt down those who set up the apparatus of terror. The guys who created the Gestapo, who formed Hitler's planning departments, regional heads, etc. A lot of the guys on the ground were doing it for ration coupons so they could put food on the table for their family and perhaps thinking "fark, I should have moved the family to America back in '33 like my next door neighbor did".

At the end of the day it seems like punishing people who opted not to rock the boat and keep their family fed and sheltered. Not inhuman monsters, but guys who opted to conform to the system rather than take some kind stand that would get their family tossed into a camp. Basically they accepted the normalization of evil and all that, but that's because they're only human. The guy who needs a bullet in his head is the guy who did all the work to figure out how to normalize the atrocity and sell it. Punishing some guy who just conformed to the system or was young, dumb, and easily swayed by propaganda is just being a vengeful dick.

At the end of the day the fact that someday you might be held accountable by some Nuremberg type tribunal at some later date really doesn't hold water when there is a member of the secret police watching over you and demanding to know what the hold up is. Kill the guy who signed the orders for the atrocity, the guys who planned it out and automated it, but picking out individual guards is horseshiat.

Of course my suggestion would be that we hunt down the Jewish resistance fighters (mostly active in Eastern Europe) who joined up with Red Army units and conducted attacks on civilian targets. Because hey those were war crimes too. Maybe Mr. Zuroff should get on that.

/war is hell
 
2012-09-25 10:30:14 AM

evilmousse: he seems like an impartial arbiter.

next, i think i'll ask a MADD mother whose child was killed in a drunk driving accident board member who draws a large salary from your donations about drunk driving laws.


FTFY

/I hate drunk drivers, but I also hate vultures who've taken over advocacy groups and use sympathy to earn a big paycheck
 
2012-09-25 10:31:56 AM
Used to be you could just look at NASA. Our government brought over 1500 Nazis, many of whom were war criminals, beginning in the 1940s, to help with the space program.

Here's an fascinsting, though very short, video about "Operation Paperclip." But what's most interesting - and chilling - is the very end. The narrator talks about a Pentagon publication where it is predicted that there will be a widening gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" as time goes on. (I do not think most people would predict that. They would say that, as we develop more and better ways to provide for people's needs and keep them healthy, that there would be less poverty and disease, and more equality.)

Anyway, this Space Command planning document, "Vision 2020," says that the Pentagon won't be able to put a Marine on every corner, as regional instability mounts. That is why superiority in space supports "battlefield "success in future warfare"! The picture on the front is of satellites shooting and hitting targets on the ground, and the narrative goes on to say that they can "see, hear, and target everything."

The Nazi legacy continues...

Link
 
2012-09-25 10:32:22 AM

Subtle_Canary: Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: I think you're seeing people reacting to the massive manhunt for the low level guys who were never really that significant to the Nazi party when they're 90 years old. It does absolutely no good for anybody, I think is the point.

Significant or not to them, an SS guard at a concentration camp is just as responsible as the person who pulled the trigger. These are not common Bundeswehr soldiers we're talking about, these are SS. No one just joined their ranks without being completely indoctrinated with the idea of exterminating certain groups of people.

Growing old is not a valid defense against what they did.

Um yeah, they did. Once the war got into full swing and Germany's man power started feeling the pinch, the SS tended to conscript able bodied men to bolster its ranks (remember, the SS took retarded casualties on the Eastern Front. Fanatical loyalty combined with poor training tends to eat up manpower), The Auxillary SS that tended to be guards at camps were conscripts. Hell by 1944, most of the SS werent even German and of THOSE guys you had a better chance of finding some conscripted schlub with a beef against Stalin or whatever than any national socialist.


Actually the Waffen SS were well-trained and admired by the German Army for their combat prowess. Since SS units were better-equipped with vehicles than Army units, they suffered fewer casualties than overrun Army units later in the war.

The number of foreign volunteers in the SS increased as the war went on, but they were never a majority. The camp SS were mostly volunteers, although foreign camp staff "Trawniki" had the choice of being guards or staying in lethal POW camps for captured Soviet troops.

And the line that only SS and Gestapo committed atrocities is a myth: read Chris Browning's Ordinary Men for a look at German Army MP unit participation. And other combat men in the Army, Waffen SS, Air Force and Navy frequently killed Allied civilians and POWs:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206982/I-liked-shoot--women- k ids--kind-sport-Secret-Nazi-tapes-reveal-ordinary-German-soldiers-resp onsible-war-crimes-just-SS.html
 
2012-09-25 10:33:06 AM

JeffDudeLebowski: They'll always say there's some left over. If they say their done, they'd stop getting money and they simply can't have that, can they? In 50 years "Look, we know a former Nazi guard is hiding in Altoona, PA." "Ummm, that would make them over 140 years old." ".............NAZIS! NAZIS! NAZIS!"

I wonder, if in our lifetimes, the Holocaust card will ceased to be played as something to hold over the world's collective heads to extort what Israel wants.


Doubt it. Americans still get slavery thrown in our faces, and that was 150 years ago.

Why are white people racists? Because slavery, that's why.
 
2012-09-25 10:33:33 AM

wedun: I see chuckufarlie white knighting for collective punishment. Not a big suprise. hey! it looks like those palestinians really want to be treated like human beings, maybe you should bomb them with white phosphorus again.


At no point have I said anything about collective punishment. Maybe you should learn to read.

You are obviously anti-Jewish and it shows. Maybe that is why you are unable to see that at no point did I say anything about collective punishment. Every time that one of these Nazis is put on trial, records are used to prove his personal guilt. Witnesses are brought into court to testify against the person.

What part of that sounds like collective punishment to you?
 
2012-09-25 10:37:06 AM
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
 
2012-09-25 10:40:17 AM

PsiChi: Used to be you could just look at NASA. Our government brought over 1500 Nazis, many of whom were war criminals, beginning in the 1940s, to help with the space program.

Here's an fascinsting, though very short, video about "Operation Paperclip." But what's most interesting - and chilling - is the very end. The narrator talks about a Pentagon publication where it is predicted that there will be a widening gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" as time goes on. (I do not think most people would predict that. They would say that, as we develop more and better ways to provide for people's needs and keep them healthy, that there would be less poverty and disease, and more equality.)

Anyway, this Space Command planning document, "Vision 2020," says that the Pentagon won't be able to put a Marine on every corner, as regional instability mounts. That is why superiority in space supports "battlefield "success in future warfare"! The picture on the front is of satellites shooting and hitting targets on the ground, and the narrative goes on to say that they can "see, hear, and target everything."

The Nazi legacy continues...

Link


The vast majority of the German scientists brought to this country to work on the space program spent the war working in labs and had nothing to do with any war crimes. The one person who was suspected was Von Braun and his "crime" was that he knew that slave laborers were used to build rockets. He had no control of that, nor could he stop it. He had already spent time in prison for his views so I can see how he might have decided to keep quiet.

If that is what you consider to be a crime, so be it. But there was nothing he could have done to make things better for these people. He was as powerless as they were to change their condition.

Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Nazis were war criminals.
 
2012-09-25 10:40:21 AM

chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Sorry, but if you're claiming to be an instrument of justice, and ignore all other the war criminals who have committed their crimes only a few years ago and a few hundred miles away, so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself.


The man is an instrument of justice. His focus is on Nazi War Criminals. The organization that he works for has devoted itself to tracking down Nazi War Criminals since WWII ended. Just because you think he should branch out makes no difference at all.


So if a mafioso hunts someone down that hurt "the family", then he's no different than a police investigator who hunts down someone in his list of criminals, right? Justice is blind, revenge is not.

chuckufarlie: Your notion that he is an instrument of revenge is ignorant. The people he chases were responsible for horrendous crimes. The fact that he is Jewish has no impact on the nobility of his work. Would you think it was a noble cause if the guy was a Lutheran?


No, he chases people who were responsible for horrendous crimes against jews from a single war exclusively. I never said the fact that he's jewish has any impact on the nobility of his work (fairly feeble effort to construct a straw man on your part), I said that the decision he has made to ignore any and all war criminals who have not made jews their victims is what makes his work less noble. He is in the business of revenge, nothing more.
 
2012-09-25 10:43:54 AM

CptnSpldng: There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.


And you are a fool. How much would it take for you to grab up a four month old child by the foot and smash its head against a wall? Would you be willing to toss a living baby into a fire? How many people would you be willing to shoot in the back of their neck before you decided it was enough?

And beyond that, your statement does nothing to mitigate the guilt of the people who actually committed these crimes.
 
2012-09-25 10:44:30 AM
Nab em if you stumble over them sure, but still hunting them? Why? So a 90yr old can spend 4 years in prison on the taxpayers dime?
 
2012-09-25 10:45:52 AM

Broktun: [cdn.thegloss.com image 560x375]

Found one!


As much as I dislike that guy, didn't he more or less run away from the Hitler Youth?
 
2012-09-25 10:48:30 AM
Also a lot of people in this thread are a little hazy on the difference between say Einsatzgruppen and SS combat divisions. The former where the roving death squads that followed behind Heer units and killed people. The later were elite divisions used where the fighting was heaviest (and ordered to kill people in massacres as well as the war went on).

Volunteering to be in a SS combat division was like volunteering to be a Ranger or the like. Elite, some extra training, better equipment. You found out later you also were expected to fill mass graves. Einsatzgruppen were typically made up of an inner cadre of loyal Nazis, strengthened by militias. A lot of older WWI vets ended up assigned to Einsatzgruppen because they were too invalid to fight on the front line, but could ride around in a truck and shoot Slavs/Jews/Gypsies just fine. They weren't volunteers or the like, but in a lot of cases army reserves called up to give the Nazis more manpower. There were also things like levies against police battalions and the like where guys who had signed up to say be a police officer in Bavaria suddenly found themselves in an Einsatzgruppen.

Just because you were part of a SS command didn't mean you woke up one morning and said "You know what, I want to kill Jews, I'm going to run down to the recruiting office and volunteer". Rather the SS sucked you in and if you didn't do the new job you were just assigned, you got shot.

I recall one history channel episode (back when it was the Hitler Channel) where they interviewed a guy. He was 18, a cop, came into work and found out he was assigned to an Einsatzgruppen. He was out in the field where they were killing Jews and an older cop, who was a WWI vet, came along and took his gun. Told him "Young men shouldn't have to do this/you shouldn't have to live with this", shot the Jews, and then went off and told the SS commander the job was done. The older guy shot himself a bit before the end of the war. While certain parties have a vested interest in portraying the German population as a great recruiting base for inhuman SS monsters, that doesn't mean that was really the case.

/apparently it was common in Einsatzgruppen conscript units for the older guys to shoot the Jews
//they knew it was wrong, but they also knew if they didn't, there would be a reprisal , so the old guys shot them to save the teenagers from having to do it
 
2012-09-25 10:48:38 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.


I forget their username and I am on my phone so I am not going to bother to check but I actually have someone farkied as a 'gives Japan a pass for WWII' which actually shocked me. The worst was that they knew of the many atrocities and war crimes. If I get to a PC soon enough I'll update with a name and thread number. *sighs*

There are a whole lot of people who really shouldn't be allowed to live. I am not the arbitrator of that, fortunately. I'd not want that role without the benefits of also being the one to decide galaxy-wide policy on everything else and I'm probably not qualified for that and I sure as hell wouldn't vote for me.
 
2012-09-25 10:52:47 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Sorry, but if you're claiming to be an instrument of justice, and ignore all other the war criminals who have committed their crimes only a few years ago and a few hundred miles away, so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself.


The man is an instrument of justice. His focus is on Nazi War Criminals. The organization that he works for has devoted itself to tracking down Nazi War Criminals since WWII ended. Just because you think he should branch out makes no difference at all.

So if a mafioso hunts someone down that hurt "the family", then he's no different than a police investigator who hunts down someone in his list of criminals, right? Justice is blind, revenge is not.

chuckufarlie: Your notion that he is an instrument of revenge is ignorant. The people he chases were responsible for horrendous crimes. The fact that he is Jewish has no impact on the nobility of his work. Would you think it was a noble cause if the guy was a Lutheran?

No, he chases people who were responsible for horrendous crimes against jews from a single war exclusively. I never said the fact that he's jewish has any impact on the nobility of his work (fairly feeble effort to construct a straw man on your part), I said that the decision he has made to ignore any and all war criminals who have not made jews their victims is what makes his work less noble. He is in the business of revenge, nothing more.


IF you mafioso hunts down these people and then turns them over to the proper authorities than he is no different that a police investigator. The man in the article finds the criminal and then has the proper authorities arrest them. Are you aware of that?

If you believe that finding a criminal and turning him over to the police is revenge, then you really need to buy a dictionary.

As for my creating a straw man - this is YOUR statement:

"so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself."

That sure sounds like you believe his being Jewish means it is not noble. Or maybe you just have problems expressing your opinions.

Maybe you should look into the organization that he works for. He is not paid to go after ALL war criminals. The organization he works for has been chasing Nazi War Criminals since the end of the war. Do you not understand?
 
2012-09-25 10:52:56 AM
Most combat SS units were garbage anyway. You got a bunch of primadonnas that for the most part didnt even get A-list equipment until late in 44 and by that time, had had their individual units destroyed and reformed so many times that they became a joke. Heer units were always coming to the rescue of vaunted 'Waffen SS elite' formations. There were probably less than half a dozen SS units that fought well, the rest of them were just cannon fodder with good PR behind them.
 
2012-09-25 10:54:48 AM
At this point, they probably hunt them down just to get advice from them. "What was the most effective wall height you guys found for a ghetto?"
 
2012-09-25 11:00:15 AM

ha-ha-guy: Also a lot of people in this thread are a little hazy on the difference between say Einsatzgruppen and SS combat divisions. The former where the roving death squads that followed behind Heer units and killed people. The later were elite divisions used where the fighting was heaviest (and ordered to kill people in massacres as well as the war went on).

Volunteering to be in a SS combat division was like volunteering to be a Ranger or the like. Elite, some extra training, better equipment. You found out later you also were expected to fill mass graves. Einsatzgruppen were typically made up of an inner cadre of loyal Nazis, strengthened by militias. A lot of older WWI vets ended up assigned to Einsatzgruppen because they were too invalid to fight on the front line, but could ride around in a truck and shoot Slavs/Jews/Gypsies just fine. They weren't volunteers or the like, but in a lot of cases army reserves called up to give the Nazis more manpower. There were also things like levies against police battalions and the like where guys who had signed up to say be a police officer in Bavaria suddenly found themselves in an Einsatzgruppen.

Just because you were part of a SS command didn't mean you woke up one morning and said "You know what, I want to kill Jews, I'm going to run down to the recruiting office and volunteer". Rather the SS sucked you in and if you didn't do the new job you were just assigned, you got shot.

I recall one history channel episode (back when it was the Hitler Channel) where they interviewed a guy. He was 18, a cop, came into work and found out he was assigned to an Einsatzgruppen. He was out in the field where they were killing Jews and an older cop, who was a WWI vet, came along and took his gun. Told him "Young men shouldn't have to do this/you shouldn't have to live with this", shot the Jews, and then went off and told the SS commander the job was done. The older guy shot himself a bit before the end of the war. While certain ...


Don't believe that the crap that you hear on the History Channel is the truth. All of the members of the Einsatzgruppen took turns killing people. It is not like this one instance, if even true, is representative. These groups spent months killing people every day. It is not conceivable that something like this happened. These guys shot several hundred people a day - the commander was there overseeing things. The idea that he went off and reported to the commander that the people were dead is not accurate..

The guys entire story is BS. He is hiding behind lies in an effort to keep out of trouble.
 
2012-09-25 11:01:36 AM

chuckufarlie: SS members did not work on the chow line, in the motor pool are any such work. Their focus was killing inmates. As for your idea that the efficiency of the German system broke down, read a book. The efficiency of German record keeping did not break down until the last months of the war. By that time, the death camps were no longer operating.


The problem is, you're unable to validate the facts of the cases because it was so long ago. There was an article yesterday about an accused SS guard. He admits he was an SS guard, but he claims he was pressed into service against his will (and the record shows he was under age when he became an SS guard.) Maybe he was just such a psychopath that he snuck in, or maybe he was really forced into the division against his will. The point is, we are beyond the ability to gather evidence that explains all of this beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the burden of evidence for citizens of this country.
 
2012-09-25 11:02:01 AM

Subtle_Canary: Most combat SS units were garbage anyway. You got a bunch of primadonnas that for the most part didnt even get A-list equipment until late in 44 and by that time, had had their individual units destroyed and reformed so many times that they became a joke. Heer units were always coming to the rescue of vaunted 'Waffen SS elite' formations. There were probably less than half a dozen SS units that fought well, the rest of them were just cannon fodder with good PR behind them.


You are completely and totally out of your mind. The Waffen SS always had the best equipment. And all German units were destroyed and reformed during the war.
 
2012-09-25 11:05:34 AM

tlchwi02: chuckufarlie: SS members did not work on the chow line, in the motor pool are any such work. Their focus was killing inmates. As for your idea that the efficiency of the German system broke down, read a book. The efficiency of German record keeping did not break down until the last months of the war. By that time, the death camps were no longer operating.

The problem is, you're unable to validate the facts of the cases because it was so long ago. There was an article yesterday about an accused SS guard. He admits he was an SS guard, but he claims he was pressed into service against his will (and the record shows he was under age when he became an SS guard.) Maybe he was just such a psychopath that he snuck in, or maybe he was really forced into the division against his will. The point is, we are beyond the ability to gather evidence that explains all of this beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the burden of evidence for citizens of this country.


You are wrong. The military records of Nazi Germany still exist and are used all of the time to determine the role a person performed in the war.

He claimed that he was forced into it, but the fact is that joining the SS was not only voluntary, until the last year of the war, it was very difficult to pass the requirements. The guy from yesterday was lying his ass off.

They can prove what these people actually did, WHY they did it is not important.
 
2012-09-25 11:06:51 AM
If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.
 
2012-09-25 11:08:34 AM

chuckufarlie: You are wrong. The military records of Nazi Germany still exist and are used all of the time to determine the role a person performed in the war.

He claimed that he was forced into it, but the fact is that joining the SS was not only voluntary, until the last year of the war, it was very difficult to pass the requirements. The guy from yesterday was lying his ass off.

They can prove what these people actually did, WHY they did it is not important.


then how did an under age kid get into an elite SS unit? tha military record confirms he was underage when he entered. Even by your own flimsy internet evidentiary standards it doesn't hold water
 
2012-09-25 11:11:36 AM

super_grass: If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.


I am a gentile. Hunting down these criminals has nothing to do with advancing human rights. It is about justice. It is about the people that they killed and seeing that the people who committed these crimes answer for them. Members of the SS who worked in the death camps were not merely guards. They all participated in killing people.
 
2012-09-25 11:16:03 AM

tlchwi02: chuckufarlie: You are wrong. The military records of Nazi Germany still exist and are used all of the time to determine the role a person performed in the war.

He claimed that he was forced into it, but the fact is that joining the SS was not only voluntary, until the last year of the war, it was very difficult to pass the requirements. The guy from yesterday was lying his ass off.

They can prove what these people actually did, WHY they did it is not important.

then how did an under age kid get into an elite SS unit? tha military record confirms he was underage when he entered. Even by your own flimsy internet evidentiary standards it doesn't hold water


It would not be difficult for an underage kid to get into the SS. The SS that worked in the camps were not elite units. The elite units were the Waffen SS, The guy in the article claims to have been in the Waffen SS but that is a lie. The Waffen SS did not work in death camps/

This person will be given a trial and his guilt of innocence will be determined then.
 
2012-09-25 11:16:10 AM

chuckufarlie: IF you mafioso hunts down these people and then turns them over to the proper authorities than he is no different that a police investigator. The man in the article finds the criminal and then has the proper authorities arrest them. Are you aware of that?

If you believe that finding a criminal and turning him over to the police is revenge, then you really need to buy a dictionary.


You're really having a hard time understanding this, aren't you? The mafioso is only hunting down people who harmed people who have harmed his family, the cop hunts all criminals indiscriminately.

re·venge [ri-venj] Show IPA verb, re·venged, re·veng·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, especially in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother.

chuckufarlie: As for my creating a straw man - this is YOUR statement:

"so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself."

That sure sounds like you believe his being Jewish means it is not noble. Or maybe you just have problems expressing your opinions.


You fail at basic logic so hard that I'm starting to suspect you're just a troll, or one of those GIYUS propagandists. The fact is that it's not because he's jewish that his actions are not noble, but that his only interest is in "justice" for those who have harmed jews. He has no interest in any war criminals who have committed atrocities to people of any other race. I don't care about his race, but he cares about what race his targets victimized. The same would be said about anyone of any race or group, who exclusively targets those who perpetrated crimes against a group with which they themselves identify (see definition of revenge above) 

Race has only come into play because he has made race an integral part of what he calls justice, which is why I can accurately call it revenge (again, take a look at that definition up above)
 
2012-09-25 11:22:03 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: IF you mafioso hunts down these people and then turns them over to the proper authorities than he is no different that a police investigator. The man in the article finds the criminal and then has the proper authorities arrest them. Are you aware of that?

If you believe that finding a criminal and turning him over to the police is revenge, then you really need to buy a dictionary.

You're really having a hard time understanding this, aren't you? The mafioso is only hunting down people who harmed people who have harmed his family, the cop hunts all criminals indiscriminately.

re·venge [ri-venj] Show IPA verb, re·venged, re·veng·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, especially in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother.

chuckufarlie: As for my creating a straw man - this is YOUR statement:

"so you can exclusively find war criminals who live thousands of miles away and committed their crimes against one particular race, your race, then you are in reality only an instrument of revenge. That isn't a noble cause, no matter what story you tell yourself."

That sure sounds like you believe his being Jewish means it is not noble. Or maybe you just have problems expressing your opinions.

You fail at basic logic so hard that I'm starting to suspect you're just a troll, or one of those GIYUS propagandists. The fact is that it's not because he's jewish that his actions are not noble, but that his only interest is in "justice" for those who have harmed jews. He has no interest in any war criminals who have committed atrocities to people of any other race. I don't care about his race, but he cares about what race his targets victimized. The same would be said about anyone of any race or group, who exclusively targets those who perpetrated crimes against a group with which they themselves identify (see definition of revenge above) 

Race has only come into play because he h ...


let me explain this one more time. Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Get it? It is his JOB to hunt Nazis. He is not paid to hunt any other people.

Cops do not hunt criminals indiscriminately. They hunt the criminals that their boss tells them to hunt. They hunt the criminals who committed crimes within their jurisdiction.
 
2012-09-25 11:23:38 AM

chuckufarlie: super_grass: If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.

I am a gentile. Hunting down these criminals has nothing to do with advancing human rights. It is about justice. It is about the people that they killed and seeing that the people who committed these crimes answer for them. Members of the SS who worked in the death camps were not merely guards. They all participated in killing people.


See: inconsistency, hypocrisy.

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.

In the context of all that, I really can't take any claims of justice seriously. I can understand and sympathize with the Jews' demand for vengeance, but that's about it.
 
2012-09-25 11:26:26 AM

chuckufarlie: let me explain this one more time. Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Get it? It is his JOB to hunt Nazis. He is not paid to hunt any other people.


So.. revenge.

chuckufarlie: Cops do not hunt criminals indiscriminately. They hunt the criminals that their boss tells them to hunt. They hunt the criminals who committed crimes within their jurisdiction.


Oh yeah! Cops aren't indiscriminate because they only hunt all the criminals!! Derp!..
 
2012-09-25 11:27:04 AM

super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.

I am a gentile. Hunting down these criminals has nothing to do with advancing human rights. It is about justice. It is about the people that they killed and seeing that the people who committed these crimes answer for them. Members of the SS who worked in the death camps were not merely guards. They all participated in killing people.

See: inconsistency, hypocrisy.

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.

In the context of all that, I really can't take any claims of justice seriously. I can understand and sympathize with the Jews' demand for vengeance, but that's about it.


There was a murder that happened nearby and the killer was never found. Based on your "ideas" we should stop chasing all of the other people who commit murders because nobody found this guy. If we cannot get justice for the family of this murdered man, then how can we possibly get justice for anybody else?

I guess that we can abolish all police departments because they are not 100% effective.
 
2012-09-25 11:27:35 AM

casual disregard: Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?

For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.



Well, for one thing, the Victim State could open up to receiving Syrian refugees fleeing the slaughter. I mean, guys like the subject of TFA weep and gnash their teeth incessantly that the HolocaustTM victims were REFUSED entry to other countries, and were forced to suffer horrors under the Nazis.

But Israel is NOT going to allow Syrian refugees in, are they?

I guess the memory of the residents of the Victim State is selective, and SOME people are more equal than others.
 
2012-09-25 11:30:03 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: let me explain this one more time. Dr. Efraim Zuroff is the chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Get it? It is his JOB to hunt Nazis. He is not paid to hunt any other people.

So.. revenge.

chuckufarlie: Cops do not hunt criminals indiscriminately. They hunt the criminals that their boss tells them to hunt. They hunt the criminals who committed crimes within their jurisdiction.

Oh yeah! Cops aren't indiscriminate because they only hunt all the criminals!! Derp!..


No, that is not true. The homicide squad chases killers. The robbery squad chases criminals that rob people.

And most importantly - THEY CHASE THE CRIMINALS THAT THEIR BOSS TELLS THEM TO CHASE.
 
2012-09-25 11:34:21 AM

chuckufarlie: No, that is not true. The homicide squad chases killers. The robbery squad chases criminals that rob people.


It cannot be called revenge, and it's not determined by race as it can in the case of the nazi hunter. If you can't get this fact by now, you're an unbelievable moran.
 
2012-09-25 11:37:10 AM

Tat'dGreaser: cptjeff: Bullshait. I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me that prosecuting people who would have been shot if they refused is in any way just or appropriate

I just got done explaining to you that these were not normal soldiers. They have been going after SS guards. These are the guys who enjoyed their jobs.


www.sabinabecker.com

www.indybay.org

2.bp.blogspot.com

www.asianews.it

Lots of people seem to "enjoy their jobs".
 
2012-09-25 11:41:35 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: No, that is not true. The homicide squad chases killers. The robbery squad chases criminals that rob people.

It cannot be called revenge, and it's not determined by race as it can in the case of the nazi hunter. If you can't get this fact by now, you're an unbelievable moran.


You are probably one of the densest people I have encountered any where, not just the internet, You are so focused on your own point that you are not capable of even considering what you are people told by others. I address one point that you make and you come back with something not at all related.

How can you call it revenge when the man turns the criminals over to the court system?
 
2012-09-25 11:43:14 AM

chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.

I am a gentile. Hunting down these criminals has nothing to do with advancing human rights. It is about justice. It is about the people that they killed and seeing that the people who committed these crimes answer for them. Members of the SS who worked in the death camps were not merely guards. They all participated in killing people.

See: inconsistency, hypocrisy.

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.

In the context of all that, I really can't take any claims of justice seriously. I can understand and sympathize with the Jews' demand for vengeance, but that's about it.

There was a murder that happened nearby and the killer was never found. Based on your "ideas" we should stop chasing all of the other people who commit murders because nobody found this guy. If we cannot get justice for the family of this murdered man, then how can we possibly get justice for anybody else?

I guess that we can abolish all police departments because they are not 100% effective.


What are you even trying to say?

I never advocated letting injustices go undressed, I was arguing the opposite.

Your analogy sucks.
 
2012-09-25 11:44:31 AM

dragonchild: Except the Nazis never won the legislature (Reichstag); they got their majority by physically removing the Communists. They never ran the country with popular approval; more than half of Germany was intimidated into silence. If you point to a random grave from the 1940s, you don't even have a coin's chances of being right.


Yea, the Nazis were very unpopular in German circa 1937...they only held power because of pure intimidation, which is why when they got the chance as the war fell apart, they rose up and overthrew Hitler.

Or not

/to be sure, there weren't any Nazis left in 1946, it's funny how they all just vanished, just like that
 
2012-09-25 11:44:41 AM

loki see loki do: He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.



It's all about spiteful vengeance.

Once these bastards sink their teeth in, they NEVER let go. Guilt or innocence of an individual is irrelevant. They're getting their kicks by making SOMEONE suffer for their COLLECTIVE suffering.
 
2012-09-25 11:46:26 AM

chuckufarlie: CptnSpldng: There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.

And you are a fool. How much would it take for you to grab up a four month old child by the foot and smash its head against a wall? Would you be willing to toss a living baby into a fire? How many people would you be willing to shoot in the back of their neck before you decided it was enough?

And beyond that, your statement does nothing to mitigate the guilt of the people who actually committed these crimes.


That thing sailing over your head, Chucklefark? It's sometimes referred to as a point. Google "banality of evil."

/Not about to engage in discussion.
// Doing this from what is supposed to be work.
 
2012-09-25 11:48:11 AM

super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: If you're Jewish, it's completely understandable that you want to go after Nazi heads.

For us gentiles, thinking that dragging some 90 year old who used to be a teenage guard would somehow advance human rights is the height of ignorance, inconsistency, and hypocrisy.

I am a gentile. Hunting down these criminals has nothing to do with advancing human rights. It is about justice. It is about the people that they killed and seeing that the people who committed these crimes answer for them. Members of the SS who worked in the death camps were not merely guards. They all participated in killing people.

See: inconsistency, hypocrisy.

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.

In the context of all that, I really can't take any claims of justice seriously. I can understand and sympathize with the Jews' demand for vengeance, but that's about it.

There was a murder that happened nearby and the killer was never found. Based on your "ideas" we should stop chasing all of the other people who commit murders because nobody found this guy. If we cannot get justice for the family of this murdered man, then how can we possibly get justice for anybody else?

I guess that we can abolish all police departments because they are not 100% effective.

What are you even trying to say?

I never advocated letting injustices go undressed, I was arguing the opposite.

Your analogy sucks.


yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.
 
2012-09-25 11:48:19 AM

chuckufarlie: How can you call it revenge when the man turns the criminals over to the court system?


Because of what the dictionary says for the definition of revenge, that's how.
 
2012-09-25 11:49:52 AM

CptnSpldng: chuckufarlie: CptnSpldng: There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.

And you are a fool. How much would it take for you to grab up a four month old child by the foot and smash its head against a wall? Would you be willing to toss a living baby into a fire? How many people would you be willing to shoot in the back of their neck before you decided it was enough?

And beyond that, your statement does nothing to mitigate the guilt of the people who actually committed these crimes.

That thing sailing over your head, Chucklefark? It's sometimes referred to as a point. Google "banality of evil."

/Not about to engage in discussion.
// Doing this from what is supposed to be work.


I guess that the timer in the fry cooker gives you time to get on the internet.
 
2012-09-25 11:51:33 AM
If one person calls you a horse, you can laugh it off

if another person calls you a horse, you should think about it.

if a third person calls you a horse, go get a saddle, you are a horse.
 
2012-09-25 11:54:02 AM
What ever happened to Hitler's pet rooster that was recovered from under a rock?

Link

(NSFW lyrics)
 
2012-09-25 11:57:50 AM
About the only wherabouts still unknown Nazi important enough that finding their fracking grave if they are already dead is Heinrich Mueller. Unless he is like 111 he's dead already,.
 
2012-09-25 11:58:03 AM

Lego_Addict: I agree with everyone, it's time to let it go. These guys may have stood by and let people die but so have a ton of other people who are still out there and can be brought to justice more practically than a bunch of 90 year olds. The article writer is just an over zealous Jew.



You misunderstand the motives of these hound-dogs.

Their key goal is to keep the HolocaustTM front-and-center in the eyes of the world, to remind us incessantly that it was THE worst atrocity EVER committed by ANYONE EVER - and not just because of what was done, but because of WHO it was done to.

The timing of this particular article was precious - what with the United Nations currently in session, Obama speaking today, Ahmadinejad speaking yesterday AND tomorrow - the unwashed gentiles NEED to be reminded who the perpetual Victims are, and that they suffered.

Oh how they suffered!

Forget what the Victim State has been doing to those it ruthlessly occupies and oppresses today. Forget that the Victim State has been working for 20 years to try to con the West into attacking Iran, and is constantly threatening to do so unilaterally.

No, the pseudo-religious dogma of the HolocaustTM MUST be constantly drilled into the psyche, so that they can continue to occupy, oppress, threaten, and expand with impunity.

Only a Nazi would dare call them on their hypocrisy.



:-)
 
2012-09-25 11:58:27 AM

asmodeus224: dragonchild: Except the Nazis never won the legislature (Reichstag); they got their majority by physically removing the Communists. They never ran the country with popular approval; more than half of Germany was intimidated into silence. If you point to a random grave from the 1940s, you don't even have a coin's chances of being right.

Yea, the Nazis were very unpopular in German circa 1937...they only held power because of pure intimidation, which is why when they got the chance as the war fell apart, they rose up and overthrew Hitler.

Or not

/to be sure, there weren't any Nazis left in 1946, it's funny how they all just vanished, just like that


So, in 44 when the the wheels were coming off, the allies had demanded unconditional surrender and were howling about dismantling the German state forever, and the Russians were on the way, quite possibly to kill everyone, you would be trying to start a civil war?
 
2012-09-25 11:59:21 AM

chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?
 
2012-09-25 12:03:38 PM
super_grass


Smartest
Funniest

2012-09-25 11:59:21 AM

chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?

no yes no

damn this opposite day!!! i don't know how to say it!!
 
2012-09-25 12:04:34 PM

Amos Quito: loki see loki do: He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.


It's all about spiteful vengeance.

Once these bastards sink their teeth in, they NEVER let go. Guilt or innocence of an individual is irrelevant. They're getting their kicks by making SOMEONE suffer for their COLLECTIVE suffering.


Other than using this thread to slander Jews, what's your point? Should this man not stand trial?

Come see the Joos persecuting the poor Arabs in Jerusalem!
realjerusalemstreets.files.wordpress.com
Oh, they're just shopping. Well let's take to the streets and see the real horrors!
realjerusalemstreets.files.wordpress.com
The horror, the horror.

Meh. I posted these because I couldn't find a suitable 'yawn' or 'rolleyes' pic.
 
2012-09-25 12:08:03 PM

super_grass: chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?


I left out the part where you stated that going after nazi war criminals while ignoring the others is hypocrisy.


You make a point and then deny it when somebody shows how ignorant your statement was.

Exactly what is your problem?
 
2012-09-25 12:11:46 PM

Porous Horace: Amos Quito: loki see loki do: He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.


It's all about spiteful vengeance.

Once these bastards sink their teeth in, they NEVER let go. Guilt or innocence of an individual is irrelevant. They're getting their kicks by making SOMEONE suffer for their COLLECTIVE suffering.

Other than using this thread to slander Jews, what's your point? Should this man not stand trial?



Should John Demjanjuk stand trial?

Well, he's kinda sorta DEAD, but if it satisfies your lust for vengeance, go ahead. Then maybe you can piss on his grave and torture his relatives.

FEELS GOOD, Porous Horace!



/Irrelevant attempt at sidetrackling ignored
 
2012-09-25 12:20:02 PM

Amos Quito: Porous Horace: Amos Quito: loki see loki do: He cites the case of Ivan (John) Demjanjuk. FFS, he was found not guilty by the Israelis, then tried as a supposedly completely different guard in Germany.

Seems awful fishy.


It's all about spiteful vengeance.

Once these bastards sink their teeth in, they NEVER let go. Guilt or innocence of an individual is irrelevant. They're getting their kicks by making SOMEONE suffer for their COLLECTIVE suffering.

Other than using this thread to slander Jews, what's your point? Should this man not stand trial?


Should John Demjanjuk stand trial?

Well, he's kinda sorta DEAD, but if it satisfies your lust for vengeance, go ahead. Then maybe you can piss on his grave and torture his relatives.

FEELS GOOD, Porous Horace!

/Irrelevant attempt at sidetrackling ignored


My mistake, I didn't mean Demanjuk, who already stood trial.

And your pictures of Israeli soldiers wasn't "sidetrackling" ?

You only attack one mistake but make no apologies for your frothing and slanderous hatred. Good on you - you win the prize!

How do you live with all that hate? It can't be healthy.
I recommend you call your vet and check your medication.
 
2012-09-25 12:21:58 PM

chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?

I left out the part where you stated that going after nazi war criminals while ignoring the others is hypocrisy.


You make a point and then deny it when somebody shows how ignorant your statement was.

Exactly what is your problem?


I refuted the claim that going after a teen underling is somehow makes you a beacon justice when you ignore bigger criminals and crimes and even participate in similar atrocities.

Tell me how I'm dumb for thinking that.
 
2012-09-25 12:24:06 PM

Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.


Fark is unbelievably anti-Jew. I have reserved Red #4 for [Anti-Semite] and threads like this are a sea of said color.

It must be a northern thing. Here in the South we're too busy hating different Protestant sects to care about non-Christians.
 
2012-09-25 12:29:27 PM

G.I.R.B.: Deep Contact: Wonder if they are still looking for Hitler?

He died in 1958 silly!


Luckily for us, it ended the Occult Wars.
 
2012-09-25 12:35:29 PM

Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.

Fark is unbelievably anti-Jew. I have reserved Red #4 for [Anti-Semite] and threads like this are a sea of said color.



LULZ!

Only because you label anyone who says anything that could be deemed less-than-flattering to Zionism or the Zionist regime as an "anti-Semite". 

LULZ!
 
2012-09-25 12:39:02 PM

rufus-t-firefly: Snort: If your job is Chief Nazi Hunter, then I suppose it is.

I have a hammer and you are in a bag full of nails and looking like a nail.


I have this rock that keeps Nazis away.
 
2012-09-25 12:43:40 PM

Amos Quito: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.

Fark is unbelievably anti-Jew. I have reserved Red #4 for [Anti-Semite] and threads like this are a sea of said color.


LULZ!

Only because you label anyone who says anything that could be deemed less-than-flattering to Zionism or the Zionist regime as an "anti-Semite". 

LULZ!


Like when you claim that anyone calling out a Jew hater is playing the "anti-semite card" in an attempt to sh(o)ut them down?
 
2012-09-25 12:50:28 PM

super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?

I left out the part where you stated that going after nazi war criminals while ignoring the others is hypocrisy.


You make a point and then deny it when somebody shows how ignorant your statement was.

Exactly what is your problem?

I refuted the claim that going after a teen underling is somehow makes you a beacon justice when you ignore bigger criminals and crimes and even participate in similar atrocities.

Tell me how I'm dumb for thinking that.


I see, you have trouble getting what is in your brain onto "paper". Hopefully, you will outgrow that.

The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.

This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.
 
2012-09-25 12:52:22 PM

Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Carousel Beast: Tat'dGreaser: Wow, Nazi-apologists. Fark really does have everything.

Fark is unbelievably anti-Jew. I have reserved Red #4 for [Anti-Semite] and threads like this are a sea of said color.


LULZ!

Only because you label anyone who says anything that could be deemed less-than-flattering to Zionism or the Zionist regime as an "anti-Semite". 

LULZ!

Like when you claim that anyone calling out a Jew hater is playing the "anti-semite card" in an attempt to sh(o)ut them down?



You're a caricature of yourself, PoorUs WhoreUs.
 
2012-09-25 12:59:26 PM

chuckufarlie: The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.



Sounds like nice, easy work - if you can get it. Sort of like being paid to hunt down and kill roving dinosaurs.

Oooh! And you even get the occasional, pandering news story that makes like you're some kind of Marvel Comic super-hero!


chuckufarlie: This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.



www.fiddlersgreen.net


So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?
 
2012-09-25 01:02:13 PM

chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?

I left out the part where you stated that going after nazi war criminals while ignoring the others is hypocrisy.


You make a point and then deny it when somebody shows how ignorant your statement was.

Exactly what is your problem?

I refuted the claim that going after a teen underling is somehow makes you a beacon justice when you ignore bigger criminals and crimes and even participate in similar atrocities.

Tell me how I'm dumb for thinking that.

I see, you have trouble getting what is in your brain onto "paper". Hopefully, you will outgrow that.

The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.

This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.


Calm down.

I never disputed the organization's job, perhaps you can link me to a post where I did?

And you seem to be fairly convinced that a 16 year old is the key to killing millions of people during a time of war. Why don't you explain how he was critical to the effort to kill people and not in some kind of duress, and how he must be stopped for the good of humanity while you display passivity towards the solders and leaders who commit crimes in modern times by comparison.

I'm waiting.
 
2012-09-25 01:13:46 PM
Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.
 
2012-09-25 01:23:24 PM

Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?


Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.
 
2012-09-25 01:26:15 PM

JackieRabbit: Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.


NO!!!

The Enola Gay was the only bomber on the first mission carrying any sort of a bomb. Where in the hell did you get this stupid idea??
 
2012-09-25 01:27:58 PM

eggrolls: Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.


The chances of any person fifteen years old at the end of the war was guilty of a war crime is very rare. Most of the crimes committed in the last months of the war would be hard to document.
 
2012-09-25 01:29:56 PM

super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie: super_grass: chuckufarlie:

yes, you did say just that when you posted:

There are people in high leadership positions who ordered and oversaw mass killings living their golden years today without fear of retribution. There are military members who belong to the US and Israel who knowing massacred civilians and yet were given slaps on the wrist. There were many, many more genocides that happened after the holocaust that were ignored, and were allowed to happen because of the lack of political will. There were mass deportations and starvation of civilians during peacetime caused by Allied occupation that happened after the second world war.



Pointing out what we should go after leaders instead of willfully ignoring them, to stop injustice before it happens, and to stop committing atrocities ourselves counts as letting things slide now?

Is it opposite day in your timezone?

I left out the part where you stated that going after nazi war criminals while ignoring the others is hypocrisy.


You make a point and then deny it when somebody shows how ignorant your statement was.

Exactly what is your problem?

I refuted the claim that going after a teen underling is somehow makes you a beacon justice when you ignore bigger criminals and crimes and even participate in similar atrocities.

Tell me how I'm dumb for thinking that.

I see, you have trouble getting what is in your brain onto "paper". Hopefully, you will outgrow that.

The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.

This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.

Calm down.

I never disputed the organization's job, perhaps you can ...


You back pedal with the best of them.

He admitted to being a prison guard at a death camp. From there it is up to the courts to determine if he is guilty of anything. The SS at the camps are the ones who did the killing. Do the math.
 
2012-09-25 01:35:15 PM

JackieRabbit: Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.



So, had the Nazis won, who would they be hunting today?

And would you be "okay" with that?
 
2012-09-25 01:36:03 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.


Sounds like nice, easy work - if you can get it. Sort of like being paid to hunt down and kill roving dinosaurs.

Oooh! And you even get the occasional, pandering news story that makes like you're some kind of Marvel Comic super-hero!


chuckufarlie: This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.


[www.fiddlersgreen.net image 238x180]


So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?


I put you on my ignore list a long time ago because of your racist attitudes but this post is just too good to ignore. It shows the height of your stupidity.

The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

I am sure that you do not see the difference between a legitimate military target and bashing a baby's head against a wall.
 
2012-09-25 01:39:21 PM

Amos Quito: JackieRabbit: Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.


So, had the Nazis won, who would they be hunting today?

And would you be "okay" with that?


They would have had a very short list. Since the western Allies did not commit crimes on the scale of those committed by the Nazis, they would have very few people to go after.

The Germans invented the idea of bombing civilians. They would have been hard pressed to justify going after our people who bombed them. They might have done so, but I was hoping to make you see this rationally.

The simple fact is that there is nothing in the history of the western allies that even comes close to what went on in the Nazi death camps.
 
2012-09-25 01:46:26 PM

chuckufarlie: JackieRabbit: Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.

NO!!!

The Enola Gay was the only bomber on the first mission carrying any sort of a bomb. Where in the hell did you get this stupid idea??


From an USAF history book when I was in boot. Supposedly, her sister ship, Bockscar, was the other one. Bockscar dropped the bomb on Nagasaki. Bockscar used to be on display at the Georgia Veterans Memorial State Park, near Cordele. The plaque there told the same tale. But to be honest, it may just have been propaganda, since I can find nothing corroborating this version on the net.
 
2012-09-25 01:50:44 PM

chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.


Sounds like nice, easy work - if you can get it. Sort of like being paid to hunt down and kill roving dinosaurs.

Oooh! And you even get the occasional, pandering news story that makes like you're some kind of Marvel Comic super-hero!


chuckufarlie: This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.


[www.fiddlersgreen.net image 238x180]


So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

I put you on my ignore list a long time ago because of your racist attitudes



What "racist attitudes"? And for / against which "race"?

Citation needed.

Oh, and because of your military knowledge, I have you Farkied with the military rank of "General Dick", FYI.


chuckufarlie: I am sure that you do not see the difference between a legitimate military target and bashing a baby's head against a wall.



It's DRAMA TIME!

Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?
 
2012-09-25 01:53:55 PM

chuckufarlie: You back pedal with the best of them.


I did no such thing.

You, however, switched back and forth between calling him a war criminal and saying that we need a court to decide on his guilt.
 
2012-09-25 01:59:37 PM

chuckufarlie: So, had the Nazis won, who would they be hunting today?

And would you be "okay" with that?

They would have had a very short list. Since the western Allies did not commit crimes on the scale of those committed by the Nazis, they would have very few people to go after.



At least not in the sanitized versions of events. I guess you never heard of the atrocities committed by "the allies" especially (but by no means exclusively) the Soviets both during AND after the war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

But we know whose version of "history" most of us are spoonfed, don't we?
 
2012-09-25 02:24:43 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: So, had the Nazis won, who would they be hunting today?

And would you be "okay" with that?

They would have had a very short list. Since the western Allies did not commit crimes on the scale of those committed by the Nazis, they would have very few people to go after.


At least not in the sanitized versions of events. I guess you never heard of the atrocities committed by "the allies" especially (but by no means exclusively) the Soviets both during AND after the war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

But we know whose version of "history" most of us are spoonfed, don't we?


You truly are stupid. Of course I know about Soviet atrocities. Why do you think that I specified Western Allies?

But if you have any evidence that the Western Allies committed any atrocities, lets have them. I will keep in mind that anything you is going to be biased by your hatred and racism.
 
2012-09-25 02:25:46 PM

super_grass: chuckufarlie: You back pedal with the best of them.

I did no such thing.

You, however, switched back and forth between calling him a war criminal and saying that we need a court to decide on his guilt.


I have always said that a trial is needed. What sort of ignorant barbarian are you that you would think otherwise.
 
2012-09-25 02:26:36 PM

Amos Quito:
Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?


It's statements such as these that reveal you to be the loathsome piece of shyte that you are.

Ironically, I should be thanking you. This past nine months of "debate" where all manner of lies and truths have been brought out has made me ten times the Zionist than I ever was before and has strengthened my feeling towards Israel as being the right and proper homeland for all Jews. I'm even considering making aliyah!
 
2012-09-25 02:32:57 PM

chuckufarlie: I will keep in mind that anything you is going to be biased by your hatred and racism.



Before we go on, again I ask: my "hatred and "racism" against WHO? Which "race" do you suppose that I favor/hate?

Out with it, General D.!
 
2012-09-25 02:34:27 PM
JackieRabbiatchuckufarlie: JackieRabbit: Amos Quito: So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

Innocent. The Enola Gay was one of two bombers that were carrying weapons. Only one of the weapons was active and set for detonation. Neither crew knew if they had the real bomb or not. They weren't supposed to for a number of reasons, both security-related and psychological. The both released their weapons, but only the Enola Gay's detonated. Besides, even if were were to concede that dropping a nuclear weapon on another people constitutes a war crime from the distance of over 60 years, the allies were the victors and victors don't prosecute their own soldiers for executing on an order approved by the Commander and Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Congressional leadership and the allied governments.

NO!!!

The Enola Gay was the only bomber on the first mission carrying any sort of a bomb. Where in the hell did you get this stupid idea??

From an USAF history book when I was in boot. Supposedly, her sister ship, Bockscar, was the other one. Bockscar dropped the bomb on Nagasaki. Bockscar used to be on display at the Georgia Veterans Memorial State Park, near Cordele. The plaque there told the same tale. But to be honest, it may just have been propaganda, since I can find nothing corroborating this version on the net.

The Enola Gay dropped a bomb on Hiroshima on 6 August. Bockscar dropped a bomb on Nagasaki on the 9th of August. Bockscar has been on display at the Air Force Museum at WPAFB since 1961.

There was one bomb per mission.
 
2012-09-25 02:35:36 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I will keep in mind that anything you is going to be biased by your hatred and racism.


Before we go on, again I ask: my "hatred and "racism" against WHO? Which "race" do you suppose that I favor/hate?

Out with it, General D.!


You need proof of your own racism?
 
2012-09-25 02:36:19 PM

chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.


Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.
 
2012-09-25 02:38:17 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: The man in the article works for an organization that hunts down Nazi War Criminals. That is his job. That is what he is paid to do. It just so happens that most of the big Nazis have already been caught or are dead.


Sounds like nice, easy work - if you can get it. Sort of like being paid to hunt down and kill roving dinosaurs.

Oooh! And you even get the occasional, pandering news story that makes like you're some kind of Marvel Comic super-hero!


chuckufarlie: This "teen underling" is exactly the type the did a lot of the actual killing of millions of innocent civilians. Neither his age at the time, nor his position in the hierarchy, has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.


[www.fiddlersgreen.net image 238x180]


So what about these guys?

Guilty, or innocent?

I put you on my ignore list a long time ago because of your racist attitudes


What "racist attitudes"? And for / against which "race"?

Citation needed.

Oh, and because of your military knowledge, I have you Farkied with the military rank of "General Dick", FYI.


chuckufarlie: I am sure that you do not see the difference between a legitimate military target and bashing a baby's head against a wall.


It's DRAMA TIME!

Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?


I would think that somebody with your level of racism would have read everything possible about the atrocities committed by the Germans.

No, not ALL SS. You would probably consider it a privilege. The rest of the sane world consider it a crime.
 
2012-09-25 02:43:10 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.


Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Following the Sino-Japanese War, with its military-related depots, Hiroshima gradually took on the atmosphere of a military supply base. In 1942, the Marine Headquarters (commonly known as the Akatsuki Corps) was established in the city. Link
 
2012-09-25 02:48:32 PM

ha-ha-guy: Personally I disagree with the Nuremberg ruling that "following orders" isn't valid. I agree it isn't excuse, but I'd argue it provides mitigating circumstances. If you're some 20 year old guard and fail to do your job in Nazi Germany, odds are you get two bullets to your head. Then the Gestapo goes out and grabs your family and does unpleasant stuff to your family. That way the guy they get to replace does his job.

When the central government is busy planning atrocities, they tend to ensure they get carried out via the threat of reprisal against their own expandable grunts. The average person didn't tell Stalin, Hitler, or Mao "No" when asked to do something. Of course the average person never really did interact with any of those, rather you didn't tell the Gestapo, the KGB, or the Red Guard "no".

IMHO we should identify and hunt down those who set up the apparatus of terror. The guys who created the Gestapo, who formed Hitler's planning departments, regional heads, etc. A lot of the guys on the ground were doing it for ration coupons so they could put food on the table for their family and perhaps thinking "fark, I should have moved the family to America back in '33 like my next door neighbor did".

At the end of the day it seems like punishing people who opted not to rock the boat and keep their family fed and sheltered. Not inhuman monsters, but guys who opted to conform to the system rather than take some kind stand that would get their family tossed into a camp. Basically they accepted the normalization of evil and all that, but that's because they're only human. The guy who needs a bullet in his head is the guy who did all the work to figure out how to normalize the atrocity and sell it. Punishing some guy who just conformed to the system or was young, dumb, and easily swayed by propaganda is just being a vengeful dick.

At the end of the day the fact that someday you might be held accountable by some Nuremberg type tribunal at some later date ...


I agree with you in principle, but the folks at Nuremberg, and at the many subsequent war crimes trials, were precisely those people who set up the apparatus of terror. They did not try 20 year old grunts. I don't think they have tried to apprehend all of the guards at the camps, just those who had a reputation for being especially sadistic. These were the people who were the leaders, and people who went above and beyond the call of "duty" with their sadism. Yet, they still claimed they were just following orders. But that was a lie.
 
2012-09-25 02:55:35 PM

chuckufarlie: eggrolls: Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.

The chances of any person fifteen years old at the end of the war was guilty of a war crime is very rare. Most of the crimes committed in the last months of the war would be hard to document.


That was kind of my point. The absurdity of the effort involved to punish everyone with even the most tangential connection to the horrors of a war. Some people WOULD pursue it for a century.
 
2012-09-25 02:56:40 PM

LMark: ha-ha-guy: Personally I disagree with the Nuremberg ruling that "following orders" isn't valid. I agree it isn't excuse, but I'd argue it provides mitigating circumstances. If you're some 20 year old guard and fail to do your job in Nazi Germany, odds are you get two bullets to your head. Then the Gestapo goes out and grabs your family and does unpleasant stuff to your family. That way the guy they get to replace does his job.

When the central government is busy planning atrocities, they tend to ensure they get carried out via the threat of reprisal against their own expandable grunts. The average person didn't tell Stalin, Hitler, or Mao "No" when asked to do something. Of course the average person never really did interact with any of those, rather you didn't tell the Gestapo, the KGB, or the Red Guard "no".

IMHO we should identify and hunt down those who set up the apparatus of terror. The guys who created the Gestapo, who formed Hitler's planning departments, regional heads, etc. A lot of the guys on the ground were doing it for ration coupons so they could put food on the table for their family and perhaps thinking "fark, I should have moved the family to America back in '33 like my next door neighbor did".

At the end of the day it seems like punishing people who opted not to rock the boat and keep their family fed and sheltered. Not inhuman monsters, but guys who opted to conform to the system rather than take some kind stand that would get their family tossed into a camp. Basically they accepted the normalization of evil and all that, but that's because they're only human. The guy who needs a bullet in his head is the guy who did all the work to figure out how to normalize the atrocity and sell it. Punishing some guy who just conformed to the system or was young, dumb, and easily swayed by propaganda is just being a vengeful dick.

At the end of the day the fact that someday you might be held accountable by some Nuremberg type tribunal at some ...


Your comments only address the main trial at Nuremberg. They also held other trials at Nuremberg and other places in Europe. Prison guards were tried on many occasions, especially in Poland, where the crimes happened. They will hold a trial for this guy and they will determine his guilt/innocence.

It is not vengeful to go after the people who actually did the killing. They are most certainly guilty.

The problem that most of you have is that you have no idea what this guy what he might have done. You also seem to want to determine his guilt/innocence here on the internet. He will get a fair trial.

Twenty years of age is a common age for a soldier.
 
2012-09-25 02:58:49 PM

eggrolls: chuckufarlie: eggrolls: Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.

The chances of any person fifteen years old at the end of the war was guilty of a war crime is very rare. Most of the crimes committed in the last months of the war would be hard to document.

That was kind of my point. The absurdity of the effort involved to punish everyone with even the most tangential connection to the horrors of a war. Some people WOULD pursue it for a century.


A. No punishment will be applied until he is given a fair trial.

B. We are near the end of these events because most of the perps are very, very old. It will not last more than a few more years. Your original statement is absurd.
 
2012-09-25 02:59:25 PM

chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.

Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Following the Sino-Japanese War, with its military-related depots, Hiroshima gradually took on the atmosphere of a military supply base. In 1942, the Marine Headquarters (commonly known as the Akatsuki Corps) was established in the city. Link


This. Also, Kyoto and Tokyo were potential targets right up to the last minute. Hiroshima was chosen because of unfavorable weather conditions over the other cities.
 
2012-09-25 03:02:10 PM

chuckufarlie: eggrolls: chuckufarlie: eggrolls: Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.

The chances of any person fifteen years old at the end of the war was guilty of a war crime is very rare. Most of the crimes committed in the last months of the war would be hard to document.

That was kind of my point. The absurdity of the effort involved to punish everyone with even the most tangential connection to the horrors of a war. Some people WOULD pursue it for a century.

A. No punishment will be applied until he is given a fair trial.

B. We are near the end of these events because most of the perps are very, very old. It will not last more than a few more years. Your original statement is absurd.


YES. IT WAS.

You're still not getting it, are you?
 
2012-09-25 03:02:15 PM

eggrolls: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.

Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Following the Sino-Japanese War, with its military-related depots, Hiroshima gradually took on the atmosphere of a military supply base. In 1942, the Marine Headquarters (commonly known as the Akatsuki Corps) was established in the city. Link

This. Also, Kyoto and Tokyo were potential targets right up to the last minute. Hiroshima was chosen because of unfavorable weather conditions over the other cities.


Tokyo was not on the list because they did not want to kill the Emperor. Kyoto was not on the list because of all of the ancient buildings there.
 
2012-09-25 03:02:24 PM

Porous Horace: Amos Quito:
Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

It's statements such as these that reveal you to be the loathsome piece of shyte that you are.



War is rife with stories, tales, anecdotes and outright lies meant to DEMONIZE the enemy. Remember Saddam's WMD's?

I was asking for the origin of the story. Is it legitimate, or just another massive exaggeration?


Porous Horace: Ironically, I should be thanking you. This past nine months of "debate" where all manner of lies and truths have been brought out has made me ten times the Zionist than I ever was before and has strengthened my feeling towards Israel as being the right and proper homeland for all Jews. I'm even considering making aliyah!



First, I think it's shameful that you feel compelled to lie in order to defend your defenseless positions.

Second, if you wish to make "aliyah", I suggest that you convince ten others to to the same, that each of those should convince ten others (and so on).

Bon voyage, Porous Horace!

Don't forget to write!
 
2012-09-25 03:03:16 PM

chuckufarlie: Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.


Why do you lie so goddamn much?

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs. Page 267, "To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids." Four cities were chosen, including Hiroshima and Kyoto. War Secretary Stimson vetoed Kyoto, and Nagasaki was substituted. Page 275, "When our target cities were first selected, an order was sent to the Army Air Force in Guam not to bomb them without special authority from the War Department."
 
2012-09-25 03:05:27 PM

eggrolls: chuckufarlie: eggrolls: chuckufarlie: eggrolls: Let's follow the math. At the most extreme, a Nazi could have been, say 15 years old in 1945. That means he would have been born in 1930. The absolute oldest people in the world live to be 115-120.

This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then.

The chances of any person fifteen years old at the end of the war was guilty of a war crime is very rare. Most of the crimes committed in the last months of the war would be hard to document.

That was kind of my point. The absurdity of the effort involved to punish everyone with even the most tangential connection to the horrors of a war. Some people WOULD pursue it for a century.

A. No punishment will be applied until he is given a fair trial.

B. We are near the end of these events because most of the perps are very, very old. It will not last more than a few more years. Your original statement is absurd.

YES. IT WAS.

You're still not getting it, are you?


You made the statement: "This happy horsehiat won't go way until the 2060s. And maybe not even then."

When addressing the crimes of WWII, this is absurd.
 
2012-09-25 03:07:15 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Why do you lie so goddamn much?

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs. Page 267, "To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids." Four cities were chosen, including Hiroshima and Kyoto. War Secretary Stimson vetoed Kyoto, and Nagasaki was substituted. Page 275, "When our target cities were first selected, an order was sent to the Army Air Force in Guam not to bomb them without special authority from the War Department."


Where in any of that does it say that Hiroshima was not an important target?


I gave you a link from a Japanese source at the Hiroshima museum. Why would they lie?
 
2012-09-25 03:09:13 PM

Amos Quito: Porous Horace: Amos Quito:
Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

It's statements such as these that reveal you to be the loathsome piece of shyte that you are.


War is rife with stories, tales, anecdotes and outright lies meant to DEMONIZE the enemy. Remember Saddam's WMD's?

I was asking for the origin of the story. Is it legitimate, or just another massive exaggeration?


Porous Horace: Ironically, I should be thanking you. This past nine months of "debate" where all manner of lies and truths have been brought out has made me ten times the Zionist than I ever was before and has strengthened my feeling towards Israel as being the right and proper homeland for all Jews. I'm even considering making aliyah!


First, I think it's shameful that you feel compelled to lie in order to defend your defenseless positions.

Second, if you wish to make "aliyah", I suggest that you convince ten others to to the same, that each of those should convince ten others (and so on).

Bon voyage, Porous Horace!

Don't forget to write!


You are a true piece of work. No wonder I put you on ignore. I think you need to go back on that list.
 
2012-09-25 03:17:01 PM

chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I will keep in mind that anything you is going to be biased by your hatred and racism.


Before we go on, again I ask: my "hatred and "racism" against WHO? Which "race" do you suppose that I favor/hate?

Out with it, General D.!

You need proof of your own racism?



No, you need to prove you allegations.

You fail, General D.


chuckufarlie: It's DRAMA TIME!

Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

I would think that somebody with your level of racism would have read everything possible about the atrocities committed by the Germans.

No, not ALL SS. You would probably consider it a privilege. The rest of the sane world consider it a crime.



I was asking for the ORIGIN of this tale, for credible evidence that such things actually took place.

I'll do a Google search...

Ah! Found it!

QUOTE:

he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Blessed is he who will seize your infants and will dash the rocks!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.

American King James Version
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.

American Standard Version
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones Against the rock.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock.

Darby Bible Translation
Happy he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock.

English Revised Version
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock.

Webster's Bible Translation
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

World English Bible
Happy shall he be, who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock. By David.

Young's Literal Translation
O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

END QUOTE

Psalm 137:9

And here it is in context:

"7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.


So it LOOKS like the source of this story is Psalms, and it APPEARS to have been written by some ancient Hebrew who was fantasizing about what Jews should do to THEIR enemies

Doesn't it look like that to YOU, chuckufarlie?
 
2012-09-25 03:24:16 PM

chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: Porous Horace: Amos Quito:
Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

It's statements such as these that reveal you to be the loathsome piece of shyte that you are.


War is rife with stories, tales, anecdotes and outright lies meant to DEMONIZE the enemy. Remember Saddam's WMD's?

I was asking for the origin of the story. Is it legitimate, or just another massive exaggeration?


Porous Horace: Ironically, I should be thanking you. This past nine months of "debate" where all manner of lies and truths have been brought out has made me ten times the Zionist than I ever was before and has strengthened my feeling towards Israel as being the right and proper homeland for all Jews. I'm even considering making aliyah!


First, I think it's shameful that you feel compelled to lie in order to defend your defenseless positions.

Second, if you wish to make "aliyah", I suggest that you convince ten others to to the same, that each of those should convince ten others (and so on).

Bon voyage, Porous Horace!

Don't forget to write!

You are a true piece of work. No wonder I put you on ignore.



You put me on ignore because I call you on your bullshiat, and that bothers you - makes you feel bad inside.


chuckufarlie: I think you need to go back on that list.



And just in the nick of time!

Now you can pretend that you never saw that Psalms 137 reference.

/Whew!
 
2012-09-25 03:35:05 PM

chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Why do you lie so goddamn much?

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs. Page 267, "To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids." Four cities were chosen, including Hiroshima and Kyoto. War Secretary Stimson vetoed Kyoto, and Nagasaki was substituted. Page 275, "When our target cities were first selected, an order was sent to the Army Air Force in Guam not to bomb them without special authority from the War Department."

Where in any of that does it say that Hiroshima was not an important target?


How can you read that citation and conclude that from the beginning, Hiroshima, a city on the water and fully accessible to bombers, yet was never bombed prior to its selection could have been strategically important? Look, I'd love to walk you through the very basic logic, but I think I'd be wasting my time.
 
2012-09-25 03:35:49 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: Porous Horace: Amos Quito:
Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

It's statements such as these that reveal you to be the loathsome piece of shyte that you are.


War is rife with stories, tales, anecdotes and outright lies meant to DEMONIZE the enemy. Remember Saddam's WMD's?

I was asking for the origin of the story. Is it legitimate, or just another massive exaggeration?


Porous Horace: Ironically, I should be thanking you. This past nine months of "debate" where all manner of lies and truths have been brought out has made me ten times the Zionist than I ever was before and has strengthened my feeling towards Israel as being the right and proper homeland for all Jews. I'm even considering making aliyah!


First, I think it's shameful that you feel compelled to lie in order to defend your defenseless positions.

Second, if you wish to make "aliyah", I suggest that you convince ten others to to the same, that each of those should convince ten others (and so on).

Bon voyage, Porous Horace!

Don't forget to write!

You are a true piece of work. No wonder I put you on ignore.


You put me on ignore because I call you on your bullshiat, and that bothers you - makes you feel bad inside.


chuckufarlie: I think you need to go back on that list.


And just in the nick of time!

Now you can pretend that you never saw that Psalms 137 reference.

/Whew!


I do not pay attention to any of your hateful, racist lies. But there are times when your lies need to be revealed for what they are.

I have posted no bullshiat. I have revealed yours.
 
2012-09-25 03:43:15 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Why do you lie so goddamn much?

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs. Page 267, "To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids." Four cities were chosen, including Hiroshima and Kyoto. War Secretary Stimson vetoed Kyoto, and Nagasaki was substituted. Page 275, "When our target cities were first selected, an order was sent to the Army Air Force in Guam not to bomb them without special authority from the War Department."

Where in any of that does it say that Hiroshima was not an important target?

How can you read that citation and conclude that from the beginning, Hiroshima, a city on the water and fully accessible to bombers, yet was never bombed prior to its selection could have been strategically important? Look, I'd love to walk you through the very basic logic, but I think I'd be wasting my time.


That is what I thought you were getting at. Your logic is bad. When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest. There were lots of cities in Japan at that time that had not been bombed.

Did you even look at the quote that I gave you from the Hiroshima museum?
 
2012-09-25 03:47:26 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I will keep in mind that anything you is going to be biased by your hatred and racism.


Before we go on, again I ask: my "hatred and "racism" against WHO? Which "race" do you suppose that I favor/hate?

Out with it, General D.!

You need proof of your own racism?


No, you need to prove you allegations.

You fail, General D.


chuckufarlie: It's DRAMA TIME!

Who smashed a baby's head against a wall? All Nazi SS men? Was it a duty, or a privilege?

I would think that somebody with your level of racism would have read everything possible about the atrocities committed by the Germans.

No, not ALL SS. You would probably consider it a privilege. The rest of the sane world consider it a crime.


I was asking for the ORIGIN of this tale, for credible evidence that such things actually took place.

I'll do a Google search...

Ah! Found it!

QUOTE:

he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Blessed is he who will seize your infants and will dash the rocks!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.

American King James Version
Happy shall he be, that takes and dashes your little ones against the stones.

American Standard Version
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones Against the rock.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Blessed be he that shal ...


And you want people to believe that you are not anti-Semitic? How incredibly stupid you are. You direct all of your hatred and stupidity against the Jewish people. You try to hide behind a thin veil to give yourself deniability. That means that not only are you a liar, but you are a coward as well. Those are not exactly admirable qualities. More like despicable.
 
2012-09-25 03:50:06 PM
Hey hey hey hey, waitasec - it's not the Jews, it's the Zionists!

/apropos of nothing
 
2012-09-25 04:00:57 PM
chuckufarlie

Not trying to tell you your business, but he asked you for a source regarding your claim of Germans bashing baby heads. You just called him a racist. He then pointed out where Jews talk about bashing baby heads...and you just call him a racist.

He's either really getting you worked up or you're not all there.
 
2012-09-25 04:01:34 PM

chuckufarlie: I do not pay attention to any of your hateful, racist lies.



That's not much of a trick, especially seeing that I post on lies, hateful, racist or otherwise.

chuckufarlie: I have posted no bullshiat. I have revealed yours.



When you wrote "I am sure that you do not see the difference between a legitimate military target and bashing a baby's head against a wall." above you were clearly IMPLYING that this was a common practice of the Nazis, the SS (or whoever).

I asked for a credible source - you failed to provide. I then found what is likely to be the origin of such rumors: A vindictive fantasy in Psalms.

You have repeatedly called me a "racist", I asked for evidence of alleged "racism", you failed.

Guys like you seem to rely on the BIG LIE technique: Keep repeating an absurd, unfounded allegation over and over and over, and hope that the readers are STOOPID enough that they will take your repetition of said lies as "evidence"

Zat how it works, chuckufarlie?


/You fail
 
2012-09-25 04:15:28 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I do not pay attention to any of your hateful, racist lies.


That's not much of a trick, especially seeing that I post on lies, hateful, racist or otherwise.chuckufarlie: I have posted no bullshiat. I have revealed yours.


When you wrote "I am sure that you do not see the difference between a legitimate military target and bashing a baby's head against a wall." above you were clearly IMPLYING that this was a common practice of the Nazis, the SS (or whoever).

I asked for a credible source - you failed to provide. I then found what is likely to be the origin of such rumors: A vindictive fantasy in Psalms.

You have repeatedly called me a "racist", I asked for evidence of alleged "racism", you failed.

Guys like you seem to rely on the BIG LIE technique: Keep repeating an absurd, unfounded allegation over and over and over, and hope that the readers are STOOPID enough that they will take your repetition of said lies as "evidence"

Zat how it works, chuckufarlie?


/You fail


No sane, rational person would believe that I implied anything about killing babies was a common practice. I did not bother to provide any sources because the babies killed in this manner were Jewish and the witnesses left behind were also Jewish. There is no way that you are going to accept the word of a Jew over your wonderful SS officers.

The evidence of your racism, hatred and anti-semitism are all over all of your posts. Why you would ask me to prove something about you that you already know is beyond me. Anybody who reads your posts will recognize it as much as I have. I am not the first person in this thread to call you on this.

The only question remaining is why you try to deny it? I can only assume that you are a coward, along with all of your other problems. Are you ashamed of yourself? Do you think that there are still people who do not realize your anti-Semitic position? Is that why you hide behind a thin veil of deniability?

No, it is obvious that everybody sees you for what you are. The reason you deny it is because you are a sniveling coward. How sad that a person is cowardly on the internet. Nobody can reach you physically. That is a level of cowardice that is hard to believe.
 
2012-09-25 04:20:53 PM

Facetious_Speciest: chuckufarlie

Not trying to tell you your business, but he asked you for a source regarding your claim of Germans bashing baby heads. You just called him a racist. He then pointed out where Jews talk about bashing baby heads...and you just call him a racist.

He's either really getting you worked up or you're not all there.


Yea, he quoted a 2000 year old document. Things have changed in 2000 years. There are many accounts of Germans killing babies during WWII. I am not going to spend my time providing a list of the books that talk about it.

The man is a racist. I realized that a long time ago and that is why I put him on my ignore list. He is about to go back on it.
 
2012-09-25 04:33:35 PM

Facetious_Speciest: chuckufarlie

Not trying to tell you your business, but he asked you for a source regarding your claim of Germans bashing baby heads. You just called him a racist. He then pointed out where Jews talk about bashing baby heads...and you just call him a racist.

He's either really getting you worked up or you're not all there.


I have encountered anti-Semites before. He is not the first. There are certain things that these types say that reveals the truth. Notice his use of the word HolocaustTM. That is a common occurrence with anti-Semites. All of the clues are there. He is just too cowardly to admit it.

Look at some of his posts here:


Well, for one thing, the Victim State could open up to receiving Syrian refugees fleeing the slaughter. I mean, guys like the subject of TFA weep and gnash their teeth incessantly that the HolocaustTM victims were REFUSED entry to other countries, and were forced to suffer horrors under the Nazis.

But Israel is NOT going to allow Syrian refugees in, are they?

I guess the memory of the residents of the Victim State is selective, and SOME people are more equal than others.



talking about the people of Israel, he posted:
It's all about spiteful vengeance.

Once these bastards sink their teeth in, they NEVER let go. Guilt or innocence of an individual is irrelevant. They're getting their kicks by making SOMEONE suffer for their COLLECTIVE suffering.

You misunderstand the motives of these hound-dogs.

Their key goal is to keep the HolocaustTM front-and-center in the eyes of the world, to remind us incessantly that it was THE worst atrocity EVER committed by ANYONE EVER - and not just because of what was done, but because of WHO it was done to.

The timing of this particular article was precious - what with the United Nations currently in session, Obama speaking today, Ahmadinejad speaking yesterday AND tomorrow - the unwashed gentiles NEED to be reminded who the perpetual Victims are, and that they suffered.

Oh how they suffered!

Forget what the Victim State has been doing to those it ruthlessly occupies and oppresses today. Forget that the Victim State has been working for 20 years to try to con the West into attacking Iran, and is constantly threatening to do so unilaterally.

No, the pseudo-religious dogma of the HolocaustTM MUST be constantly drilled into the psyche, so that they can continue to occupy, oppress, threaten, and expand with impunity.

Only a Nazi would dare call them on their hypocrisy.


He admits that he is a Nazi because he calls them out on their supposed hypocrisy.
 
2012-09-25 04:34:51 PM
"... where Jews talk about bashing baby heads"

That's a rather disingenous way of putting it.
 
2012-09-25 04:36:01 PM

chuckufarlie: That is what I thought you were getting at. Your logic is bad. When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest.


^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs.

Little boy was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, only 4 months later

U.S. strategic bombing of the Japanese Empire began in earnest in October 1944 Link

7 months of heavy bombing (never mind initial bombing starting in 1942) and it "just started"?

STOP LYING.
 
2012-09-25 04:41:38 PM

Amos Quito: casual disregard: Tat'dGreaser: casual disregard: We said never again. And then we almost immediately turned our backs and let it happen again. And again. And again.

Cambodia. Darfur. Syria. Somalia. Etc.

Perhaps what we meant was "never again will we lift one finger against outrageous atrocities."

Question, how do you think we should have stopped those from happening?

For all our comforts and our freedoms, we do nothing while people die. If I had a good idea to help the people of Syria, I would tell you. I wish I knew what to do. That will not stop me from hating murderers.


Well, for one thing, the Victim State could open up to receiving Syrian refugees fleeing the slaughter. I mean, guys like the subject of TFA weep and gnash their teeth incessantly that the HolocaustTM victims were REFUSED entry to other countries, and were forced to suffer horrors under the Nazis.

But Israel is NOT going to allow Syrian refugees in, are they?

I guess the memory of the residents of the Victim State is selective, and SOME people are more equal than others.


Have you been lobbying your congressman to let Syrian refugees into the United States?

Holocaust Agnostic: asmodeus224: dragonchild: Except the Nazis never won the legislature (Reichstag); they got their majority by physically removing the Communists. They never ran the country with popular approval; more than half of Germany was intimidated into silence. If you point to a random grave from the 1940s, you don't even have a coin's chances of being right.

Yea, the Nazis were very unpopular in German circa 1937...they only held power because of pure intimidation, which is why when they got the chance as the war fell apart, they rose up and overthrew Hitler.

Or not

/to be sure, there weren't any Nazis left in 1946, it's funny how they all just vanished, just like that

So, in 44 when the the wheels were coming off, the allies had demanded unconditional surrender and were howling about dismantling the German state forever, and the Russians were on the way, quite possibly to kill everyone, you would be trying to start a civil war?


The idea of leaving the Western front open to the Allies so that they would overrun Germany before the Russians got there was bruited here and there in the Wehrmacht after D-Day; I once read that Helmut Schmidt, later Prime Minister and at the time a junior officer, suggested it to his buddies. Just a reminder in this context that in late 1944, Hitler committed the last of his reserves to an offensive in Belgium rather than use them to try to keep the Russians out of Germany.
 
2012-09-25 04:52:23 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: That is what I thought you were getting at. Your logic is bad. When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest.

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs.

Little boy was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, only 4 months later

U.S. strategic bombing of the Japanese Empire began in earnest in October 1944 Link

7 months of heavy bombing (never mind initial bombing starting in 1942) and it "just started"?

STOP LYING.


Yes, the bombing started in October of 1944. But it started out slowly. The initial raids from the Marianas were small. They targeted industry, as they had done in Europe. Even as the number of bombers increased, the targets were still industrial. But because of the jet stream over Japan, precision bombing of factories was not working. It was not until they switched to fire bombing raids that targeted cities that they started to see results. And the first firebombing raid was against Tokyo on 9 March, 1945. That list of cities to avoid came out within thirty days. Link I stand by my original statement.

You have repeatedly accused me of lying but in fact, the real situation is that you have very little knowledge of the subject.

If you have any maturity at all, I would expect you to apologize for calling me a liar.
 
2012-09-25 04:53:54 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: So, had the Nazis won, who would they be hunting today?

And would you be "okay" with that?

They would have had a very short list. Since the western Allies did not commit crimes on the scale of those committed by the Nazis, they would have very few people to go after.


At least not in the sanitized versions of events. I guess you never heard of the atrocities committed by "the allies" especially (but by no means exclusively) the Soviets both during AND after the war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

But we know whose version of "history" most of us are spoonfed, don't we?


The Communists' version?

Yes, the Soviets did all of those things. But the German occupation of Russia--or at the time, the USSR--wasn't a picnic in the park for those affected, either. I can't help thinking that the Germans could have spared themselves most of those Soviet rapes and other atrocities if their occupying forces had kept their own trousers on, and their guns holstered, during the three years they graced the western USSR with their presence. Read Alexander Werth or Alexander Dallin if the gory details interest you.
 
2012-09-25 05:07:09 PM

chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: That is what I thought you were getting at. Your logic is bad. When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest.

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs.

Little boy was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, only 4 months later

U.S. strategic bombing of the Japanese Empire began in earnest in October 1944 Link

7 months of heavy bombing (never mind initial bombing starting in 1942) and it "just started"?

STOP LYING.

Yes, the bombing started in October of 1944. But it started out slowly. The initial raids from the Marianas were small. They targeted industry, as they had done in Europe. Even as the number of bombers increased, the targets were still industrial. But because of the jet stream over Japan, precision bombing of factories was not working. It was not until they switched to fire bombing raids that targeted cities that they started to see results. And the first firebombing raid was against Tokyo on 9 March, 1945. That list of cities to avoid came out within thirty days. Link I stand by my original statement.

You have repeatedly accused me of lying but in fact, the real situation is that you have very little knowledge of the subject.

If you have any maturity at all, I would expect you to apologize for calling me a liar.


You've thoroughly destroyed your credibility, and despite your effort to double down, I think most people can see it clearly. I call a spade a spade, and I stand by my statement pertaining to your character, as well as my quoted sources pertaining to your "facts".
 
2012-09-25 05:15:21 PM

chuckufarlie: Facetious_Speciest: chuckufarlie

Not trying to tell you your business, but he asked you for a source regarding your claim of Germans bashing baby heads. You just called him a racist. He then pointed out where Jews talk about bashing baby heads...and you just call him a racist.

He's either really getting you worked up or you're not all there.

I have encountered anti-Semites before. He is not the first. There are certain things that these types say that reveals the truth. Notice his use of the word HolocaustTM. That is a common occurrence with anti-Semites. All of the clues are there. He is just too cowardly to admit it.

Look at some of his posts here:


Well, for one thing, the Victim State could open up to receiving Syrian refugees fleeing the slaughter. I mean, guys like the subject of TFA weep and gnash their teeth incessantly that the HolocaustTM victims were REFUSED entry to other countries, and were forced to suffer horrors under the Nazis.

But Israel is NOT going to allow Syrian refugees in, are they?

I guess the memory of the residents of the Victim State is selective, and SOME people are more equal than others.



Ahem:

The word "Holocaust" is Greek, and literally means "burnt whole", usually referring to a religious sacrifice. The term was used in reference to genocide by several writers (including Winston Churchill) as early as 1922 to describe the Armenian Genocide, and this was long before anyone had heard of Hitler or the Nazis. Thanks to decades of endless promotion, it is now considered an insult - even a sacrilege to use the term Holocaust in reference to anything OTHER than the slaughter (of Jews) by the Nazis. Hence the well-deserved TM.

Next: Is Syria experiencing extreme civil upheaval? Are there countless Syrians whose lives are in danger, and who are seeking refuge from the chaos? Is Israel - "The Victim State" - a political entity largely FOUNDED by desperate refugees who had "no place to go" accepting these desperate people?

No???

Pretty damned callous AND hypocritical, especially considering that the Israelis CONTINUE to whine to this very day about how they were turned away back in WWII - don't you think??? Would they accept them if they were NOT Gentiles?

(Serious question)

You call me a "racist" because I call out Zionists and berate them because of their ethocentric supremacism. You call me an anti-Semite, I think you are a Zionist and a Semitist (2) - because you prefer these, give them a free pass, believe that they are above and should be immune to criticism because of WHO they are.

But the fact is that Zionism was a racist, ethnocentric supremacist scheme since the plot was first hatched by Herzl back in the late 1800's - a plot that simmered, steamed and boiled for a full 40 years before the beginning of WWII.

Zionism began as a racist, bigoted, supremacist ideology, and it continues to be a racist, bigoted, supremacist ideology to this day. It has created nothing but suffering and misery for Jew and Gentile alike since it was conceived.

And you call ME a racist because I have the NERVE to criticize this creature?

LOL!
 
2012-09-25 05:19:54 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: That is what I thought you were getting at. Your logic is bad. When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest.

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs.

Little boy was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, only 4 months later

U.S. strategic bombing of the Japanese Empire began in earnest in October 1944 Link

7 months of heavy bombing (never mind initial bombing starting in 1942) and it "just started"?

STOP LYING.

Yes, the bombing started in October of 1944. But it started out slowly. The initial raids from the Marianas were small. They targeted industry, as they had done in Europe. Even as the number of bombers increased, the targets were still industrial. But because of the jet stream over Japan, precision bombing of factories was not working. It was not until they switched to fire bombing raids that targeted cities that they started to see results. And the first firebombing raid was against Tokyo on 9 March, 1945. That list of cities to avoid came out within thirty days. Link I stand by my original statement.

You have repeatedly accused me of lying but in fact, the real situation is that you have very little knowledge of the subject.

If you have any maturity at all, I would expect you to apologize for calling me a liar.

You've thoroughly destroyed your credibility, and despite your effort to double down, I think most people can see it clearly. I call a spade a spade, and I stand by my statement pertaining to your character, as well as my quoted sources pertaining to your "facts".


You truly know nothing about the bombing campaign against Japan. You need to look into what I posted for you. The actual destruction of Japanese cities did not start until they started firebombing and that started in March 1945.

Think about it Einstein. The convention (high explosive) bombing of Japanese industry would not have destroyed cities. It was not until they realized that this campaign was not working that they started fire bombing cities.

What, in your opinion, would be more destructive to cities:

a. bombing factories.
b. firebombing cities.

I provided you with a link that shows that everything I posted is fact. Obviously, you did not read any of it, You would rather wallow in ignorance than learn the truth.
 
2012-09-25 05:25:30 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Facetious_Speciest: chuckufarlie

Ahem:

The word "Holocaust" is Greek, and literally means "burnt whole", usually referring to a religious sacrifice. The term was used in reference to genocide by several writers (including Winston Churchill) as early as 1922 to describe the Armenian Genocide, and this was long before anyone had heard of Hitler or the Nazis. Thanks to decades of endless promotion, it is now considered an insult - even a sacrilege to use the term Holocaust in reference to anything OTHER than the slaughter (of Jews) by the Nazis. Hence the well-deserved TM.

Next: Is Syria experiencing extreme civil upheaval? Are there countless Syrians whose lives are in danger, and who are seeking refuge from the chaos? Is Israel - "The Victim State" - a political entity largely FOUNDED by desperate refugees who had "no place to go" accepting these desperate people?

No???

Pretty damned callous AND hypocritical, especially considering that the Israelis CONTINUE to whine to this very day about how they were turned away back in WWII - don't you think??? Would they accept them if they were NOT Gentiles?

(Serious question)

You call me a "racist" because I call out Zionists and berate them because of their ethocentric supremacism. You call me an anti-Semite, I think you are a Zionist and a Semitist (2) - because you prefer these, give them a free pass, believe that they are above and should be immune to criticism because of WHO they are.

But the fact is that Zionism was a racist, ethnocentric supremacist scheme since the plot was first hatched by Herzl back in the late 1800's - a plot that simmered, steamed and boiled for a full 40 years before the beginning of WWII.

Zionism began as a racist, bigoted, supremacist ideology, and it continues to be a racist, bigoted, supremacist ideology to this day. It has created nothing but suffering and misery for Jew and Gentile alike since it was conceived.

And you call ME a racist because I have the NERVE to criticize this creature?.


I do not consider calling somebody a Zionist to be an insult.

I do thank you for finally revealing your true self. You are such a racist that you do not even realize it. You are so full of hate that you cannot even see the truth of your own feelings.

Yes, I do call you a racist. I call you anti-Jewish.

tell me, what is your ethnicity?
 
2012-09-25 05:48:05 PM

chuckufarlie: You truly know nothing about the bombing campaign against Japan. You need to look into what I posted for you. The actual destruction of Japanese cities did not start until they started firebombing and that started in March 1945.

Think about it Einstein. The convention (high explosive) bombing of Japanese industry would not have destroyed cities. It was not until they realized that this campaign was not working that they started fire bombing cities.

What, in your opinion, would be more destructive to cities:

a. bombing factories.
b. firebombing cities.

I provided you with a link that shows that everything I posted is fact. Obviously, you did not read any of it, You would rather wallow in ignorance than learn the truth.


The type of bombs used is completely irrelevant to the point. The critical point was that it was not bombed at all.

Hiroshima had not been touched at all for nearly the first 2/3 of heavy bombing prior to the order restricting such bombing. Your defense for Hiroshima not being bombed was justified by this "When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest" How can you claim that 2/3 of the way through the "earnest" bombing, it had "just started"? Not only that, it was as yet completely untouched. Still in your opinion, contrary to all fact and reason, this is an important military target? You cannot squirm your way out of the fact that we used Hiroshima as a weapons testing experiment. It's an ugly fact, but a fact nonetheless.
 
2012-09-25 05:59:36 PM

chuckufarlie: I do not consider calling somebody a Zionist to be an insult.


Well, as Political Zionism - the scheme to carve a "homeland" for Jews out of the midst of Palestine (which was then under the control of the Ottoman Empire) is, by definition, a racist ideology (using YOUR definition of "race"), I would have to say that you, sir, are a "racist".

Please bear in mind that the Zionist plot preceded the HolocaustTM by some 40 years, that Herzl offered to pay the NATIONAL DEBT [!] of the Ottomans if they would allow the place to be flooded with European Jews (rejected), and that the Balfour Declaration was a quid pro quo in which Britain promised Rothschild (Zionist leader) a chunk of Palestine IN EXCHANGE for the support of the Zionists - 20 years BEFORE WWII began - a move which altered the course of WWI in favor of the Allies.

The Germans noticed, and felt betrayed. It pissed them off. This created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust.

But you don't consider calling someone a "Zionist" an insult? I can only conclude that you are either ignorant of the history, or an extreme hypocrite.


chuckufarlie: I do thank you for finally revealing your true self. You are such a racist that you do not even realize it. You are so full of hate that you cannot even see the truth of your own feelings.



MIRROR.


chuckufarlie: Yes, I do call you a racist. I call you anti-Jewish.



That is only because in your ignorance, you have conflated Zionism with Judaism, and assume that if one is ethnically Jewish, he is naturally a Zionist. This is NOT the case. But if it is any consolation, you can take comfort in knowing that your ignorance is commonplace.

Did you know that, prior to WWII, the vast majority of Jews wanted NO PART of the Zionist scheme? It was a BAD IDEA, and they knew it.

And the history of the Middle East since the founding of the Zionist State has proved that they were right. Zionism has brought nothing but misery and suffering to all.

chuckufarlie: tell me, what is your ethnicity?


Is it relevant? You think it is, so it must be, right?

First, I'm a human being.

Second, I'm an American.

As to my ethnicity, I am what you would call "white": European - Scottish - Irish - English with a touch of Norman French. Not a drop of German blood in the family tree, to my knowledge. My ancestors have been in America since the mid 1600's (dad's side) and since the mid 1800's (mom's side). I have been happily married to a Hispanic woman from South America for 28 years. Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids, and no, they are not taught that racism is cool as long as you are of the "right ethnicity".

Now it's your turn, Mr. Racist: What is YOUR ethnicity?
 
2012-09-25 06:03:22 PM

chuckufarlie: I do not consider calling somebody a Zionist to be an insult.


If someone wanted to make a state that was comprised of and ruled by [insert race here], they'd be called racist. I don't see why Zionism should be an exception. The concept has no place in the modern era.

I'm sure I'll be branded a racist for pointing this out though.
 
2012-09-25 06:04:37 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: You truly know nothing about the bombing campaign against Japan. You need to look into what I posted for you. The actual destruction of Japanese cities did not start until they started firebombing and that started in March 1945.

Think about it Einstein. The convention (high explosive) bombing of Japanese industry would not have destroyed cities. It was not until they realized that this campaign was not working that they started fire bombing cities.

What, in your opinion, would be more destructive to cities:

a. bombing factories.
b. firebombing cities.

I provided you with a link that shows that everything I posted is fact. Obviously, you did not read any of it, You would rather wallow in ignorance than learn the truth.

The type of bombs used is completely irrelevant to the point. The critical point was that it was not bombed at all.

Hiroshima had not been touched at all for nearly the first 2/3 of heavy bombing prior to the order restricting such bombing. Your defense for Hiroshima not being bombed was justified by this "When the order went out not to bomb Hiroshima and the other cities on the exclusion list, the bombing campaign against Japanese cities had just started in earnest" How can you claim that 2/3 of the way through the "earnest" bombing, it had "just started"? Not only that, it was as yet completely untouched. Still in your opinion, contrary to all fact and reason, this is an important military target? You cannot squirm your way out of the fact that we used Hiroshima as a weapons testing experiment. It's an ugly fact, but a fact nonetheless.


The initial bombing campaign was not aimed at the destruction of cities. It was aimed at the destruction of factories. There was obviously damage to cities in this but it did not destroy them. The cities of Japan were still pretty much intact during the campaign to attack industrial targets. The strong jet stream over Japan made precision bombing next to impossible and there was talk of ending it. LeMay came up with the idea of firebombing the cities. He had most of the machine guns removed from the planes and they bombed at night. The planes carried bombs designed to set the cities on fire.

It was not until they started firebombing the cities that they destroyed an of them.


There is a difference between the starting of the bombing campaign against industry and the beginning of the campaign to destroy cities. Your post provided the beginning of the campaign against industrial targets. That campaign did not destroy cities. The campaign to destroy cities began in March of 1945.

check out this Link. It is all explained there.
 
2012-09-25 06:06:35 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: I do not consider calling somebody a Zionist to be an insult.

If someone wanted to make a state that was comprised of and ruled by [insert race here], they'd be called racist. I don't see why Zionism should be an exception. The concept has no place in the modern era.

I'm sure I'll be branded a racist for pointing this out though.



We have to make an exception for one very exceptional people.

Right?

;-)
 
2012-09-25 06:09:19 PM
People like AQ are more responsible for the existence of Israel than Theodore Hertzl. Discuss.
 
2012-09-25 06:12:15 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I do not consider calling somebody a Zionist to be an insult.

Well, as Political Zionism - the scheme to carve a "homeland" for Jews out of the midst of Palestine (which was then under the control of the Ottoman Empire) is, by definition, a racist ideology (using YOUR definition of "race"), I would have to say that you, sir, are a "racist".

Please bear in mind that the Zionist plot preceded the HolocaustTM by some 40 years, that Herzl offered to pay the NATIONAL DEBT [!] of the Ottomans if they would allow the place to be flooded with European Jews (rejected), and that the Balfour Declaration was a quid pro quo in which Britain promised Rothschild (Zionist leader) a chunk of Palestine IN EXCHANGE for the support of the Zionists - 20 years BEFORE WWII began - a move which altered the course of WWI in favor of the Allies.

The Germans noticed, and felt betrayed. It pissed them off. This created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust.

But you don't consider calling someone a "Zionist" an insult? I can only conclude that you are either ignorant of the history, or an extreme hypocrite.


chuckufarlie: I do thank you for finally revealing your true self. You are such a racist that you do not even realize it. You are so full of hate that you cannot even see the truth of your own feelings.


MIRROR.


chuckufarlie: Yes, I do call you a racist. I call you anti-Jewish.


That is only because in your ignorance, you have conflated Zionism with Judaism, and assume that if one is ethnically Jewish, he is naturally a Zionist. This is NOT the case. But if it is any consolation, you can take comfort in knowing that your ignorance is commonplace.

Did you know that, prior to WWII, the vast majority of Jews wanted NO PART of the Zionist scheme? It was a BAD IDEA, and they knew it.

And the history of the Middle East since the founding of the Zionist State has proved that they were right. ...


Your premise that zionism was racist is another complete fabrication. The Jews who moved to Palestine lived in the midst of the arabs. They were not trying to remove them from the area. That is not racist. Even with the UN set up the country of Israel, it was on the basis that the Jews and the arabs would share the area. The arabs decided that they did not want to share the land so they attacked and started the first of many wars instigated to remove the Jews. The arabs were just never organized enough or well trained enough to accomplish that goal.

Yes, many Jews thought that it was a bad idea to move to Palestine. Why not? They were happy where they were. Their families, friends and livelihood were all in Europe. They saw no reason to pick up and move.

Then your hero Hitler came along and at the end of the war, the surviving Jews realized that having their own place to live so that anti-Semites like you would have a harder time getting to them.

Why does how these people felt before WWII have anything to do with this?

Once again, what is your ethnicity?
 
2012-09-25 06:17:09 PM

Porous Horace: People like AQ are more responsible for the existence of Israel than Theodore Hertzl. Discuss.


yes, you are completely correct. People like AQ, people who were anti-Semitic, are very much responsible for the existence of Israel. Prior to WWII, most Jews did not want to move to Palestine. They were happy where they were. It was not until the Holocaust that the survivors realized that having a country of their own would be a really good idea.

Add to that the fact that the property of the Jews in Europe had been taken away from them and most of it was then destroyed in the war. They had no home to go back to. Going to Palestine must have looked like going to a paradise.
 
2012-09-25 06:19:06 PM

chuckufarlie: The initial bombing campaign was not aimed at the destruction of cities....


This doesn't negate my point, it's an irrelevant tangent. Even still, a tangent that agrees with my statement that Hiroshima wasn't an important military target.

Somehow this seems to suit you.
i47.tinypic.com
 
2012-09-25 06:35:12 PM

Porous Horace: People like AQ are more responsible for the existence of Israel than Theodore Hertzl. Discuss.


I am not and never have been an admirer of Theodor Herzl, Israel, or Zionism, but if anyone here could ever make me sympathize with any or all of them, he'd be the man.

Amos Quito: the Balfour Declaration was a quid pro quo in which Britain promised Rothschild (Zionist leader) a chunk of Palestine IN EXCHANGE for the support of the Zionists - 20 years BEFORE WWII began - a move which altered the course of WWI in favor of the Allies.

The Germans noticed, and felt betrayed. It pissed them off. This created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust.


Nonsense like this doesn't help matters. The Nazis and their predecessors seldom mentioned Zionism in their anti-Jewish diatribes (I believe that Hitler mentioned Zionism in Mein Kampf just once), although they frequently accused Jews of simultaneously being Communists, Social Democrats, international bankers, and practically everything else. Zionism was legal in the Reich until the end of 1938. 

The Germans started WWII because they reckoned that they could achieve hegemony in Europe, not because they were pissed off at Zionists.
 
2012-09-25 06:46:46 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The initial bombing campaign was not aimed at the destruction of cities....

This doesn't negate my point, it's an irrelevant tangent. Even still, a tangent that agrees with my statement that Hiroshima wasn't an important military target.

Somehow this seems to suit you.
[i47.tinypic.com image 385x458]


wow, I cannot believe how obtuse you are. It is a very important tangent. The actual destruction of Japanese cities did not begin until March, 1945. Until March of 1945, not one Japanese city had been destroyed. The fact that Hiroshima had not been attacked prior to April of 1945 does not mean that it was not a valuable military target.

Seriously, I gave you a quote from the Japanese Museum in Hiroshima that stated that the city was an important military target. What more do need?


Your premise is that Hiroshima was not an important target because it had not been attacked prior to April of 1945. I have provided you with the reason why this was the case. In fact, by April of 1945, only one or two cities had been destroyed.

Did you even go to the link I gave you?
 
2012-09-25 06:50:01 PM

tirob: Porous Horace: People like AQ are more responsible for the existence of Israel than Theodore Hertzl. Discuss.

I am not and never have been an admirer of Theodor Herzl, Israel, or Zionism, but if anyone here could ever make me sympathize with any or all of them, he'd be the man.

Amos Quito: the Balfour Declaration was a quid pro quo in which Britain promised Rothschild (Zionist leader) a chunk of Palestine IN EXCHANGE for the support of the Zionists - 20 years BEFORE WWII began - a move which altered the course of WWI in favor of the Allies.

The Germans noticed, and felt betrayed. It pissed them off. This created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust.


Nonsense like this doesn't help matters. The Nazis and their predecessors seldom mentioned Zionism in their anti-Jewish diatribes (I believe that Hitler mentioned Zionism in Mein Kampf just once), although they frequently accused Jews of simultaneously being Communists, Social Democrats, international bankers, and practically everything else. Zionism was legal in the Reich until the end of 1938. 

The Germans started WWII because they reckoned that they could achieve hegemony in Europe, not because they were pissed off at Zionists.


AQ, the ultimate moron seems to overlook the fact that Hitler and his buddies would have been happy if every Jew in Europe had moved to Palestine. Until the war started, he wanted to send the Jews of Germany to some other country. Once he took over France, that place became Madagascar. It was not until he could not get them out of Europe that the wholesale murder started.
 
2012-09-25 06:54:14 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: ]


The fire raids on Japan started in 1945. The fire raids were ordered by General Curtis LeMay, who some see as the 'Bomber Harris' of the Pacific War, in response to the difficulty B-29 crews had in completing pinpoint strategic bombing over Japanese cities. LeMay, therefore, decided that blanket bombing raids on cities to undermine the morale of civilians were an appropriate response. After the attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941 (referred to as "unprovoked and dastardly" by President Roosevelt), no-one was willing to speak out on behalf of the Japanese citizens.

On November 1st, 1944, a B-29 Superfortress flew over Tokyo for the first time in what was a propaganda victory flight as opposed to anything else. The B-29 was designed to carry a 20,000 lb bomb load for a distance of 5000 miles. It was designed for long flights and the crew had pressurised compartments to give them a degree of comfort on these flights. Based in the Marianas and China, the B-29 groups were under the direct command of General H Arnold and the Joint Chief-of-Staff in Washington DC.

The difficulty of strategic bombing had been seen on June 15th, 1944, when a raid on Yawata's iron and steel works resulted in just 2% of the complex being damaged. On August 20th, a raid on the same plant led to 18 bombers being shot down out of 70 planes - an attrition rate of 25%. The target was barely touched. Such losses for so little reward convinced many crews that strategic bombing was untenable.

The first bombing raid against Tokyo occurred on November 24th. The city was 1,500 miles from the Marianas. Brigadier-General Emmett O'Donnell flying the 'Dauntless Dotty' led 111 B-29's against the Musashima engine factory. The planes dropped their bombs from 30,000 feet and came across the first of a number of problems - accuracy. The B-29's were fitted with an excellent bomb aimer - the Norden - but it could not make out its target through low cloud. Also flying at 30,000 feet meant that the planes frequently flew in a jet stream wind that was between 100 and 200 mph which further complicated bomb aiming. Of the 111 planes on the raid, only 24 found the target.

In January 1945, Curtis LeMay flew to the Marianas to take control of 21st Bomber Command. The 20th Bomber Command, which had been based in India and China, was also transferred to the Marianas and LeMay was given command of this as well. Both units became the 20th Air Force. By March 1945, over 300 B-29's were taking part in raids over Japan.

However, flights over Japan remained risky as there were very many young Japanese men who were willing to take on the risk of attacking a B-29, despite its awesome firepower (12 x .50 inch guns and 1 cannon). When Japan introduced its 'George' and 'Jack' fighters, the number of casualties for the 20th Air Force increased and the damage done by the bombers was not really worth the losses. In March 1945, the capture of Iwo Jima meant that P-51 Mustangs could be used to escort the B-29's. P-61 'Black Widows' gave night time protection to the bombers during night raids. The Mustang was more than a match for the 'Jack' and 'George' fighters and daylight bombing raids over Japan became less hazardous with such protection.

LeMay still experienced one major problem though. The investment the Allies were getting for the number of bombs dropped was small. The bombers were not having a discernable impact on manufacturing in Japan. Pinpoint bombing was simply not giving the returns that LeMay wanted. He was also acutely aware that any potential invasion of Japan would be massively costly for the Americans if the Japanese Home Defence Force was well-equipped with reasonably modern weapons. If the manufacturing industries of Japan could not be destroyed, then there was no doubt in his mind, that the force would be well equipped - to the detriment of the Americans.

LeMay, having already seen the success of a fire raid on Hankow when B-29's flew much lower than their normal 30,000 feet and dropped incendiary bombs.

LeMay decided that Tokyo would be the first target for a massive raid on Japan itself. The raid was planned for the night of March 10th and the B-29's were to fly at between 5,000 and 8,000 feet. As Japan was not expected to send up night fighters, the guns from the planes were taken off as was anything that was deemed not useful to the raid. By effectively stripping the plane of non-essentials, more bombs could be carried for the raid. Along with Tokyo, Kobe, Osaka and Nagoya were also targeted. As each had flourishing cottage industries that fed the factories of each city, LeMay hoped to starve these factories of required parts. He also hoped that the fires that would be started would also destroy the larger factories as well. As the target for the raid was so large - a city area - the B-29's did not have to fly in strict formation, especially as little resistance was expected from the Japanese.

The incendiary bombs dropped were known as M-69's. These weighed just 6 lbs each and were dropped in a cluster of 38 within a container. One B-29 usually carried 37 of these containers, which equated to just over 1,400 bombs per plane. The bombs were set free from the container at 5,000 feet by a time fuse and then exploded on contact with the ground. When they did this, they spread a jelly-petrol compound that was highly inflammable.

For the attack on Tokyo, over 300 B-29's were involved. They took off for a flight that would get them to Tokyo just before dawn, thus giving them the cover of darkness, but with daylight for the return journey to the Marianas. They flew at 7,000 feet. This in itself may have baffled the city's defenders as they would have been used to the B-29's flying at 30,000 feet.

The raid had a massive impact on Tokyo. Photo-reconnaissance showed that 16 square miles of the city had been destroyed. Sixteen major factories - ironically scheduled for a future daylight raid - were destroyed along with many cottage industries. In parts of the city, the fires joined up to create a firestorm. The fires burned so fiercely and they consumed so much oxygen, that people in the locality suffocated. It is thought that 100,000 people were killed in the raid and another 100,000 injured. The Americans lost 14 B-29's; under the 5% rate of loss that was considered to be 'acceptable'.

On March 12th, a similar raid took place on Nagoya. The raid was less successful as the fires did not join up and just over 1 square mile of the city was destroyed. On March 13th, Osaka was attacked. Eight square miles of the city were destroyed. Nearly 2.5 square miles of Kobe was also destroyed by incendiary raids. In the space of ten days, the Americans had dropped nearly 9,500 tons of incendiaries on Japanese cities and destroyed 29 square miles of what was considered to be important industrial land.
 
2012-09-25 06:55:08 PM
Sing Along Time!!!

We're taught that after the war
The Nazis vanished without a trace
But battalions of fascists
Still dream of a master race

The history books
They tell of their defeat in 45
Why did they all come out of the woodwork
On the day the Nazi died

They say the prisoner of Spandau
Was a symbol of defeat
Whilst Hess remained imprisoned
Then the fascists they were beat

So the promise of an Aryan world
Would never materialize
So why did they all come out of the woodwork
On the day the Nazi died

The world is ridden by maggots
The maggots are getting fat
They're making a tasty meal
Of all the bosses and bureaucrats

They're taking over the board rooms
And they're fat and full of pride
And they all came out of the woodwork
On the day the Nazi died

So if you meet with these historians
I'll tell you what to say
Tell them that the Nazis
Never really went away

They're out there burning houses down
And they're peddling racist lies
And we'll never rest again
Until every Nazi dies


CHUMBAWAMBA - THE DAY THE NAZI DIED
 
2012-09-25 07:09:19 PM

chuckufarlie: The fact that Hiroshima had not been attacked prior to April of 1945 does not mean that it was not a valuable military target.


It means it was low on the list, at least 2/3 of the way down the list. We don't bomb alphabetically.

chuckufarlie: Did you even go to the link I gave you?


Do you not understand why a museum, in Japan, might not want to make it clear to their citizens that a central reason for the choice of Hiroshima was for an accurate assessment of a weapon's effectiveness? I'll take the word of the generals involved in the decision making process over a diplomatically influenced institution residing in the affected country, thank you.
 
2012-09-25 07:33:10 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The fact that Hiroshima had not been attacked prior to April of 1945 does not mean that it was not a valuable military target.

It means it was low on the list, at least 2/3 of the way down the list. We don't bomb alphabetically.

chuckufarlie: Did you even go to the link I gave you?

Do you not understand why a museum, in Japan, might not want to make it clear to their citizens that a central reason for the choice of Hiroshima was for an accurate assessment of a weapon's effectiveness? I'll take the word of the generals involved in the decision making process over a diplomatically influenced institution residing in the affected country, thank you.


Yes, the generals did want a city that had not been bombed in order to see the effectiveness of the weapon. That, however, was not the real reason that Hiroshima was bombed. It is just the reason why it had not been attacked prior to August.

The reason that ANY city in Japan was attacked with an atomic bomb was to end the war as quickly as possible with the smallest number of deaths. The fact that they wanted to measure the effectiveness was a secondary consideration.

You made the claim that Hiroshima was not an important target. That is not true. It was an important military target. The fact that it had not been bombed before is not a measure of its importance or lack thereof. If not for the atomic bombs, LeMay would have continued to firebomb all of the major cities of Japan, Hiroshima included. All of the major cities in Japan contained legitimate military targets. That is why they would have been destroyed.


You seem to have a vested interest in believing that Hiroshima was bombed just to measure the effect of the bomb. I have explained all of your concerns to you. You refuse to accept the simple facts as I have laid them out to you. I do not understand why you refuse to accept the truth. I have provided you with links to reliable resources and you refuse to even consider them. Your entire position is based on the fact that you misunderstand what that book was talking about.


Good luck, life is really going to suck for you.
 
2012-09-25 07:35:07 PM

Amos Quito: Lego_Addict: I agree with everyone, it's time to let it go. These guys may have stood by and let people die but so have a ton of other people who are still out there and can be brought to justice more practically than a bunch of 90 year olds. The article writer is just an over zealous Jew.


You misunderstand the motives of these hound-dogs.

Their key goal is to keep the HolocaustTM front-and-center in the eyes of the world, to remind us incessantly that it was THE worst atrocity EVER committed by ANYONE EVER - and not just because of what was done, but because of WHO it was done to.

The timing of this particular article was precious - what with the United Nations currently in session, Obama speaking today, Ahmadinejad speaking yesterday AND tomorrow - the unwashed gentiles NEED to be reminded who the perpetual Victims are, and that they suffered.

Oh how they suffered!

Forget what the Victim State has been doing to those it ruthlessly occupies and oppresses today. Forget that the Victim State has been working for 20 years to try to con the West into attacking Iran, and is constantly threatening to do so unilaterally.

No, the pseudo-religious dogma of the HolocaustTM MUST be constantly drilled into the psyche, so that they can continue to occupy, oppress, threaten, and expand with impunity.

Only a Nazi would dare call them on their hypocrisy.



:-)


Yep, this is why I have you favorited ;)
 
2012-09-25 07:43:18 PM

Lego_Addict: Amos Quito: Lego_Addict: I agree with everyone, it's time to let it go. These guys may have stood by and let people die but so have a ton of other people who are still out there and can be brought to justice more practically than a bunch of 90 year olds. The article writer is just an over zealous Jew.


You misunderstand the motives of these hound-dogs.

Their key goal is to keep the HolocaustTM front-and-center in the eyes of the world, to remind us incessantly that it was THE worst atrocity EVER committed by ANYONE EVER - and not just because of what was done, but because of WHO it was done to.

The timing of this particular article was precious - what with the United Nations currently in session, Obama speaking today, Ahmadinejad speaking yesterday AND tomorrow - the unwashed gentiles NEED to be reminded who the perpetual Victims are, and that they suffered.

Oh how they suffered!

Forget what the Victim State has been doing to those it ruthlessly occupies and oppresses today. Forget that the Victim State has been working for 20 years to try to con the West into attacking Iran, and is constantly threatening to do so unilaterally.

No, the pseudo-religious dogma of the HolocaustTM MUST be constantly drilled into the psyche, so that they can continue to occupy, oppress, threaten, and expand with impunity.

Only a Nazi would dare call them on their hypocrisy.



:-)

Yep, this is why I have you favorited ;)


And why I put him on ignore, A self professed Nazi, no less.
 
2012-09-25 07:52:16 PM

Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids


That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.
 
2012-09-25 08:06:40 PM

Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids

That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.


Have you heard of the kid on the east coast who was named Adolph Hitler Campbell by his parents. Probably this guys grand kid.
 
2012-09-25 08:25:24 PM

chuckufarlie: Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids

That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.

Have you heard of the kid on the east coast who was named Adolph Hitler Campbell by his parents. Probably this guys grand kid.


His calling out Israel on their hypocrisy isn't hatred or racism, and immediately resorting to such childish tactics just makes you both look like whining teenagers who can't come up with a coherent response. His statements were about Israel's actions, which is a fair argument to make. I think plenty of countries do horrible things, just because recent history hasn't been kind to a particular population, doesn't mean their country gets a free pass.
 
2012-09-25 08:39:21 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids

That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.

Have you heard of the kid on the east coast who was named Adolph Hitler Campbell by his parents. Probably this guys grand kid.

His calling out Israel on their hypocrisy isn't hatred or racism, and immediately resorting to such childish tactics just makes you both look like whining teenagers who can't come up with a coherent response. His statements were about Israel's actions, which is a fair argument to make. I think plenty of countries do horrible things, just because recent history hasn't been kind to a particular population, doesn't mean their country gets a free pass.


You have already displayed a remarkable inability to understand what you read. Your feelings about this, or any subject, is hardly worth reading.
 
2012-09-25 08:58:10 PM

chuckufarlie: You have already displayed a remarkable inability to understand what you read. Your feelings about this, or any subject, is hardly worth reading.


Whatever you say, Mr "I know more about the motivation behind Hiroshima than the generals who were directly involved".
 
2012-09-25 09:01:48 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: You have already displayed a remarkable inability to understand what you read. Your feelings about this, or any subject, is hardly worth reading.

Whatever you say, Mr "I know more about the motivation behind Hiroshima than the generals who were directly involved".


Once again you fail to understand the facts. I know what their motivation was. It is you that does not understand. At this point I am not surprised that you continue to be completely confused. I do hope that by the time you grow up, you will learn to think coherently.
 
2012-09-25 09:17:18 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids

That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.

Have you heard of the kid on the east coast who was named Adolph Hitler Campbell by his parents. Probably this guys grand kid.

His calling out Israel on their hypocrisy isn't hatred or racism, and immediately resorting to such childish tactics just makes you both look like whining teenagers who can't come up with a coherent response. His statements were about Israel's actions, which is a fair argument to make. I think plenty of countries do horrible things, just because recent history hasn't been kind to a particular population, doesn't mean their country gets a free pass.


I don't see you calling him out for all his ad-hominems which appeared earlier in this thread.
Nor calling him out for his weasel rhetoric, using oh-so-clever phrases to say nasty things about Jews under the guise of 'debate'.
Nor calling him out for him turning any thread into an anti-Israel shiatfest.

As usual, Jews are held to an impossible double standard,

As for Syria, why the fark should Israel take in anyone from a country that has always been hostile to them?
Where's your condemnation of other countries, like Iraq, which has closed its border to Syrian refugees? Or condemning all the Palestinians massacred in Syria?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_civil_war
Israelis from humanitarian groups are in Jordan to assist Syrian refugees fleeing their country's civil war. Ayoob Kara, Israel's deputy minister for the developoment of the Negev and Galilee, said that Israelis are assisting children and infants who have been injured in the Syrian military's ongoing violent crackdown throughout Syria. He said Israeli volunteer groups had been providing humanitarian aid in Turkey and Jordan for the past two months.

Syrians have not shown up at Israeli borders. So are the Israelis guilty of not going into Syria and filing up buses with refugees and bringing them back to Israel?

Also, what hypocrisy?

As for not attacking his arguments, they been trotted out and attacked over and over - it's a merry-go-round of hate, with him spinning the wheel and I ain't gonna be riding.
It goes from snide remark, to general Jew-things, to Zionism to and then back to Jews, depending on what side of which of his arguments you're attacking.
Go ahead - take each sentence of his apart and try to untangle the hate rhetoric from any argument of fact.
Plenty of people debate Israel here and are not called Jew-haters, because they don't come off the bat frothing at the mouth against Jews.
As a side note, you can also ask him how much he likes black people.

He's a troll and probably happy that this many people are actually paying attention to him.

Last word: The name of the game is survival. Jews have been around for thousands of years and we're not going away. Israel is our rightful home and always shall be, and you can all go fark yourselves or come at me bro and take your best shot.
 
2012-09-25 09:22:02 PM

Porous Horace: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Porous Horace: Amos Quito: Yes, we have amazing kids and wonderful grandkids

That's gotta be the most depressing thing I've heard all week.

Have you heard of the kid on the east coast who was named Adolph Hitler Campbell by his parents. Probably this guys grand kid.

His calling out Israel on their hypocrisy isn't hatred or racism, and immediately resorting to such childish tactics just makes you both look like whining teenagers who can't come up with a coherent response. His statements were about Israel's actions, which is a fair argument to make. I think plenty of countries do horrible things, just because recent history hasn't been kind to a particular population, doesn't mean their country gets a free pass.

I don't see you calling him out for all his ad-hominems which appeared earlier in this thread.
Nor calling him out for his weasel rhetoric, using oh-so-clever phrases to say nasty things about Jews under the guise of 'debate'.
Nor calling him out for him turning any thread into an anti-Israel shiatfest.

As usual, Jews are held to an impossible double standard,

As for Syria, why the fark should Israel take in anyone from a country that has always been hostile to them?
Where's your condemnation of other countries, like Iraq, which has closed its border to Syrian refugees? Or condemning all the Palestinians massacred in Syria?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_civil_war
Israelis from humanitarian groups are in Jordan to assist Syrian refugees fleeing their country's civil war. Ayoob Kara, Israel's deputy minister for the developoment of the Negev and Galilee, said that Israelis are assisting children and infants who have been injured in the Syrian military's ongoing violent crackdown throughout Syria. He said Israeli volunteer groups had been providing humanitarian aid in Turkey and Jordan for the past two months.

Syrians have not shown up at Israeli borders. So are the Israelis guilty of not going in ...


This BraveNewCheneyWorld is just as bad as AQ, but a lot stupider.
 
2012-09-25 09:25:24 PM

chuckufarlie: Your premise that zionism was racist is another complete fabrication



Oh, so Herzl and his Zionist pals planned to build a "homeland" in Palestine for Jews AND OTHERS? Who, pray tell?


chuckufarlie: The Jews who moved to Palestine lived in the midst of the arabs. They were not trying to remove them from the area.



Well, the Palestinians WERE there. It's not like the wanted to share, but what choice did they have? And how does one build a JEWISH STATE (the goal of Zionism) unless one has a JEWISH MAJORITY (which the Zionists damn near failed to achieve)? No, there is no way that the Zionist regime could get a meaningful foothold unless the Palestinians were ousted/marginalized. It was part of the plan from the outset.


chuckufarlie: Even with the UN set up the country of Israel, it was on the basis that the Jews and the arabs would share the area.



Yeah, but the once the Zionists HAD their majority of Jews (thanks, Hitler!), they exposed their true face: They chased the British - who had helped them to establish the toehold, out of the area by committing the DEADLIEST act of terrorism EVER committed in Palestine/Israel.

www.bollyn.com

The perpetrators of this deadly act of terror were discovered, and were "punished" by being elected Prime Ministers of Israel.


chuckufarlie: Yes, many Jews thought that it was a bad idea to move to Palestine. Why not? They were happy where they were. Their families, friends and livelihood were all in Europe. They saw no reason to pick up and move.

Then your hero Hitler came along and at the end of the war, the surviving Jews realized that having their own place to live so that anti-Semites like you would have a harder time getting to them.

Why does how these people felt before WWII have anything to do with this?



Correction: YOUR hero Hitler, my little Zionist friend. The Zionists had struggled long and hard to try to con their fellow Jews into moving to that hellhole and they FAILED MISERABLY.

They succeeded in getting their hands on the land (via the quid pro quo Balfour Declaration), but they had NO PEOPLE. I ask you, what good is a "Jewish State" if the majority of its population is NON-JEWS?

The Zionists were in a pickle - DESPERATE. What they needed was a miracle - and G-d provided that miracle in the form of a barky-bitey sheep dog named Adolph Hitler. That sheep dog was just what the Zionists needed to move those stubborn, stiff-necked high-falootin' European Jews OUT of their comfortable European lives and into the Palestinian hell-hole.

Hitler may have been bad news for Europe's Jews, but in the eyes of the Zionists, he was a godsend. Were it not for the Nazis (or some similar anti-Semitic tragedy) the Zionist State of Israel could NEVER have come into being.

And that's a fact, Jack.

Why your Zionists pals don't refer to Adolph as their "Founding Father" is beyond me - G-d knows that they certainly behave in a manner that he would have approved of - racist, expansionist, supremacist, ruthlessly cruel to outsiders...


chuckufarlie: Once again, what is your ethnicity?



Well above I said:

Amos Quito: As to my ethnicity, I am what you would call "white": European - Scottish - Irish - English with a touch of Norman French. Not a drop of German blood in the family tree, to my knowledge. My ancestors have been in America since the mid 1600's (dad's side) and since the mid 1800's (mom's side).


But apparently you're too dull to understand, so I'll put it in terms you can understand.

I'M NOT JEWISH.

Yep, I'm a goy and that's the only thing that matters to a Judaeo-supremacist racist like you, chuckfarlie.

Happy Yom Kippur.
 
2012-09-25 09:26:37 PM
O brave Israel

Old men flee thy wrath
 
2012-09-25 09:51:26 PM

chuckufarlie: eggrolls: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.

Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Following the Sino-Japanese War, with its military-related depots, Hiroshima gradually took on the atmosphere of a military supply base. In 1942, the Marine Headquarters (commonly known as the Akatsuki Corps) was established in the city. Link

This. Also, Kyoto and Tokyo were potential targets right up to the last minute. Hiroshima was chosen because of unfavorable weather conditions over the other cities.

Tokyo was not on the list because they did not want to kill the Emperor. Kyoto was not on the list because of all of the ancient buildings there.


Nope, although I was wrong about the weather saving Tokyo or Kyoto. That was the city of Kokura, saved by a 70% cloud cover. Nagasaki became the target that day.

Tokyo was still considered a possible, but low value target by 1945...because we had already pretty much bombed it flat with conventional weapons.

And we're both wrong about Kyoto. It was on the very top of the list of possible targets, but it was removed by Henry Stinson, FDR's sec'y of war, because he had honeymooned there.

But as far as the US sparing historical cities, Dresden would like a word with you.
 
2012-09-25 09:53:07 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: Your premise that zionism was racist is another complete fabrication


Oh, so Herzl and his Zionist pals planned to build a "homeland" in Palestine for Jews AND OTHERS? Who, pray tell?


chuckufarlie: The Jews who moved to Palestine lived in the midst of the arabs. They were not trying to remove them from the area.


Well, the Palestinians WERE there. It's not like the wanted to share, but what choice did they have? And how does one build a JEWISH STATE (the goal of Zionism) unless one has a JEWISH MAJORITY (which the Zionists damn near failed to achieve)? No, there is no way that the Zionist regime could get a meaningful foothold unless the Palestinians were ousted/marginalized. It was part of the plan from the outset.


chuckufarlie: Even with the UN set up the country of Israel, it was on the basis that the Jews and the arabs would share the area.


Yeah, but the once the Zionists HAD their majority of Jews (thanks, Hitler!), they exposed their true face: They chased the British - who had helped them to establish the toehold, out of the area by committing the DEADLIEST act of terrorism EVER committed in Palestine/Israel.

[www.bollyn.com image 351x264]

The perpetrators of this deadly act of terror were discovered, and were "punished" by being elected Prime Ministers of Israel.


chuckufarlie: Yes, many Jews thought that it was a bad idea to move to Palestine. Why not? They were happy where they were. Their families, friends and livelihood were all in Europe. They saw no reason to pick up and move.

Then your hero Hitler came along and at the end of the war, the surviving Jews realized that having their own place to live so that anti-Semites like you would have a harder time getting to them.

Why does how these people felt before WWII have anything to do with this?


Correction: YOUR hero Hitler, my little Zionist friend. The Zionists had struggled long and hard to try to con their fellow Jews into moving to that hellhole and they FAILED MISERABLY.
...


I know that you are not Jewish. I am thinking that you are an arab. Don't deny it, I could care less about what you have to so.

Hitler is no hero to me, but I can see why you would think that he is your hero, You two have so much in common.,
 
2012-09-25 09:57:28 PM

eggrolls: chuckufarlie: eggrolls: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: The men in that photo dropped a bomb on a legitimate military target.

Hate to break it to you, but the ONLY reason we dropped the nuke on Hiroshima was because it was an unimportant target in nearly every respect (it had some military, but it wasn't a key target), so we could keep from bombing it with conventional weapons at no cost to the war effort. It had typically developed infrastructure so we could have an accurate assessment of the devastation.

Hate to break it to you but you are wrong. Hiroshima was not an unimportant target. We bombed it to end the war.

Following the Sino-Japanese War, with its military-related depots, Hiroshima gradually took on the atmosphere of a military supply base. In 1942, the Marine Headquarters (commonly known as the Akatsuki Corps) was established in the city. Link

This. Also, Kyoto and Tokyo were potential targets right up to the last minute. Hiroshima was chosen because of unfavorable weather conditions over the other cities.

Tokyo was not on the list because they did not want to kill the Emperor. Kyoto was not on the list because of all of the ancient buildings there.

Nope, although I was wrong about the weather saving Tokyo or Kyoto. That was the city of Kokura, saved by a 70% cloud cover. Nagasaki became the target that day.

Tokyo was still considered a possible, but low value target by 1945...because we had already pretty much bombed it flat with conventional weapons.

And we're both wrong about Kyoto. It was on the very top of the list of possible targets, but it was removed by Henry Stinson, FDR's sec'y of war, because he had honeymooned there.

But as far as the US sparing historical cities, Dresden would like a word with you.


I was not wrong about Kyoto. The sec/war did honeymoon there and he stated that he would hate to see all of the old buildings destroyed. As for Dresden, I never said that the US wanted to spare historical cities, I specifically mentioned just one city - Kyoto.
 
2012-09-25 10:00:50 PM

tirob: Porous Horace: People like AQ are more responsible for the existence of Israel than Theodore Hertzl. Discuss.

I am not and never have been an admirer of Theodor Herzl, Israel, or Zionism, but if anyone here could ever make me sympathize with any or all of them, he'd be the man.

Amos Quito: the Balfour Declaration was a quid pro quo in which Britain promised Rothschild (Zionist leader) a chunk of Palestine IN EXCHANGE for the support of the Zionists - 20 years BEFORE WWII began - a move which altered the course of WWI in favor of the Allies.

The Germans noticed, and felt betrayed. It pissed them off. This created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust.


Nonsense like this doesn't help matters. The Nazis and their predecessors seldom mentioned Zionism in their anti-Jewish diatribes



On the contrary, the Nazis were VERY much involved with the Zionists. In fact, they had quite the cozy little arrangement going during the 1930's. You see, the Nazis and the Zionists shared a common goal: MOVING JEWS.

The Nazis wanted the Jews (who they claimed were disloyal, subversive and untrustworthy) OUT of Germany - and they didn't really care where they went.

The Zionists, OTOH, wanted as many Jews as possible to move INTO Palestine, and they VERY MUCH preferred the kind of educated, cultured and sharp-witted Jews that Germany could provide. So they set up a little arrangement called the Haavara (Transfer) agreement, wherein Zionistsschemers worked hand-in-hand in full cooperation with the Nazis to move as many Jews to Palestine as possible.

Read the link. Learn.

Remember: The primary goal of Zionists was NOT to "save Jews", but to establish a "Jewish State". For some really great insights into the Zionist mindset, read ISRAEL WAS EVERTHING - a nice little piece written by the famed Jewish historian Sir Martin John Gilbert and published in the New York Times in 1987.

Here's a pearl from that link:

''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.''

David Ben Gurion - Zionist hero and first Prime Minister of the Zionist State


tirob: (I believe that Hitler mentioned Zionism in Mein Kampf just once), although they frequently accused Jews of simultaneously being Communists, Social Democrats, international bankers, and practically everything else. Zionism was legal in the Reich until the end of 1938.

The Germans started WWII because they reckoned that they could achieve hegemony in Europe, not because they were pissed off at Zionists.



And indeed Jews / Zionists were heavily involved in Bolshevik/Soviet Communism, international banking (Rothschilds) and "just about everything else".

And I did not say that the (perceived) Zionist betrayal of the Germans with the Balfour Declaration / Treaty of Versailles was the cause of WWII, I said it "created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust - meaning the inter-ethnic strife.

Read the links.
 
2012-09-25 10:04:51 PM

Amos Quito:

what the Zionists needed to move those stubborn, stiff-necked high-falootin' European Jews OUT of their comfortable European lives


Your ignorance of the economic situation of the European Jews before 1939 is unparalleled. A *large* number of them, particularly in Poland, Lithuania, and Rumania, lived lives that were far from comfortable; they shivered with cold in the winter, had no plumbing or electricity, and in many cases were dependent economically on money sent from relatives elsewhere.

Hitler may have been bad news for Europe's Jews, but in the eyes of the Zionists, he was a godsend. Were it not for the Nazis (or some similar anti-Semitic tragedy) the Zionist State of Israel could NEVER have come into being.

The Zionists got plenty of help populating their state from other sources, too. Palestinians who have been displaced or otherwise persecuted during the last 65 years can thank governments in many an Arab country for throwing out their Jewish citizens and thus foisting them on Israel.

I will suggest that we could help out the Palestinians and weaken Israel by accepting some Jewish Israelis as immigrants to the US. How would you feel about that?
 
2012-09-25 10:06:32 PM

chuckufarlie: Once again you fail to understand the facts. I know what their motivation was. It is you that does not understand. At this point I am not surprised that you continue to be completely confused. I do hope that by the time you grow up, you will learn to think coherently.


Kick and scream and cling to that one link from a Japanese museum all you want. The generals and anyone with a basic working knowledge of military strategy say you're wrong.

Porous Horace: Israel is our rightful home and always shall be, and you can all go fark yourselves or come at me bro and take your best shot.


Your rightful home? Because you evict the people who live there with machine guns and bulldoze their homes? As far as history goes, Arabs were there first. Israel was founded by land theft and murder. It's not your rightful land in the slightest.
 
2012-09-25 10:22:19 PM

chuckufarlie: I know that you are not Jewish. I am thinking that you are an arab. Don't deny it, I could care less about what you have to



No, I'm no Arab, and have no particular affection for them or for the moose limbs.

www.myteespot.com

BTW, I notice that your shift key seems to malfunction when you type the word "arabs", but that it seems to work just fine when you type the word "Jews".

Maybe you should have that looked at?
 
2012-09-25 10:33:14 PM

tirob: Amos Quito:

what the Zionists needed to move those stubborn, stiff-necked high-falootin' European Jews OUT of their comfortable European lives


Your ignorance of the economic situation of the European Jews before 1939 is unparalleled. A *large* number of them, particularly in Poland, Lithuania, and Rumania, lived lives that were far from comfortable; they shivered with cold in the winter, had no plumbing or electricity, and in many cases were dependent economically on money sent from relatives elsewhere.



Um, it was the 1930's, not the 1990's. The world was in the throes of the great depression, and Poland (like many Eastern European countries) was hardly a bastion of economic stability or technological advancement. FYI, the non-Jewish Poles were doing no better, and IF you read history, you'll find that through the middle ages, the Jews of Poland fared FAR better on the whole than did their non-Jewish counterparts - Lords and Priest class excepted, of course).

Things were rough all over.

tirob: Hitler may have been bad news for Europe's Jews, but in the eyes of the Zionists, he was a godsend. Were it not for the Nazis (or some similar anti-Semitic tragedy) the Zionist State of Israel could NEVER have come into being.

The Zionists got plenty of help populating their state from other sources, too. Palestinians who have been displaced or otherwise persecuted during the last 65 years can thank governments in many an Arab country for throwing out their Jewish citizens and thus foisting them on Israel.



You didn't read the Martin Gilbert link yet, I see.


tirob: I will suggest that we could help out the Palestinians and weaken Israel by accepting some Jewish Israelis as immigrants to the US. How would you feel about that?


I have no problem with ANYONE moving here - PROVIDED that they do so through the proper channels, AND that they come not to rape, pillage, plunder and USE America for what they can get, but that they are intent on BEING AMERICANS.

Not Mexican Americans, not Arab Americans, not Jewish Americans, but HUMAN BEING Americans.

Enough with the ethnosupremacist racist claptrap. Humanity can no longer afford it. 

Have a pleasant evening.
 
2012-09-25 10:42:05 PM

Amos Quito:

And indeed Jews / Zionists were heavily involved in Bolshevik/Soviet Communism, international banking (Rothschilds) and "just about everything else".

Really? Zionists involved in Bolshevism? The kids and grandmothers murdered in Poland international bankers? And what I wrote was that the Nazis accused Jews of being Communists and international bankers *simultaneously.*

And I did not say that the (perceived) Zionist betrayal of the Germans with the Balfour Declaration / Treaty of Versailles was the cause of WWII, I said it "created much animosity between ethnic Germans and Jews, and set the stage for the conflict that would culminate in the Holocaust - meaning the inter-ethnic strife

Whichever way you slice it, you're way off base. The Balfour Declaration's effect on Jewish-German relations was infinitesimal; the evidence for that is that Hitler never mentioned it in Mein Kampf. As for the Treaty of Versailles, which you didn't mention earlier, I am unaware that Zionism is mentioned in it, or that Zionists had a hand in drawing it up. Perhaps you can enlighten me. It is true that Nazis (and many other nationally minded Germans) did blame Jews for the defeat of Germany in WWI; personally, I think they gave Jews too much credit and the French/British Commonwealth/US armies too little, but I will say that if Jews (and Zionists, for that matter) contributed, even in a small way, to the defeat of Kaiser Wilhelm, there's nothing wrong with that. For what would have happened if Germany had won that war, I recommend a book by Fritz Fischer called Germany's Aims in the First World War.

I know the history of the Haavara business, and yes, it was pretty sordid. I believe Hannah Arendt wrote that while Jews in the Western countries were trying to organize a boycott of Nazi Germany, Palestine was being flooded with goods "Made in Germany."
 
2012-09-25 10:52:49 PM

Amos Quito: tirob: Amos Quito:

what the Zionists needed to move those stubborn, stiff-necked high-falootin' European Jews OUT of their comfortable European lives


Your ignorance of the economic situation of the European Jews before 1939 is unparalleled. A *large* number of them, particularly in Poland, Lithuania, and Rumania, lived lives that were far from comfortable; they shivered with cold in the winter, had no plumbing or electricity, and in many cases were dependent economically on money sent from relatives elsewhere.


Um, it was the 1930's, not the 1990's. The world was in the throes of the great depression, and Poland (like many Eastern European countries) was hardly a bastion of economic stability or technological advancement. FYI, the non-Jewish Poles were doing no better, and IF you read history, you'll find that through the middle ages, the Jews of Poland fared FAR better on the whole than did their non-Jewish counterparts - Lords and Priest class excepted, of course).


No, the non-Jewish population of Poland wasn't any better off in most cases, but the poverty in Jewish Poland (and elsewhere in Jewish Eastern Europe) was chronic; it wasn't just a product of the 1930s.
 
2012-09-25 10:59:31 PM

Amos Quito: tirob:

The Zionists got plenty of help populating their state from other sources, too. Palestinians who have been displaced or otherwise persecuted during the last 65 years can thank governments in many an Arab country for throwing out their Jewish citizens and thus foisting them on Israel.

You didn't read the Martin Gilbert link yet, I see.


On the contrary. It's unresponsive to my point, though.
 
2012-09-25 11:03:09 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: Once again you fail to understand the facts. I know what their motivation was. It is you that does not understand. At this point I am not surprised that you continue to be completely confused. I do hope that by the time you grow up, you will learn to think coherently.

Kick and scream and cling to that one link from a Japanese museum all you want. The generals and anyone with a basic working knowledge of military strategy say you're wrong..


Gee, Junior, I shot down each and every one of your points. I explained to you what Hiroshima had not been attacked and I explained that wanting a city that was not damaged was a secondary reason.

You have the entire situation assbackwards. That is not a surprise to me. I suspect you live that way.

There is nothing in the selection of Hiroshima that had any value at the strategic level. I think that "strategy" is just another item that you know nothing about.

Why do you put so much stock in the fact that they wanted a city that was not damaged? What would be the point of bombing a city that was already at least partially destroyed?

I have to admit that I am having a good time pointing out all of your errors.

Tell me, Junior, are you being so pigheaded about this because I showed you how wrong you "ideas" are or are you just normally pigheaded?

In case you have not heard, Hiroshima was a legitimate military target.

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Even some military camps were located nearby, such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. Another account stresses that after General Spaatz reported that Hiroshima was the only targeted city without POW-camps, Washington decided to assign it highest priority.

The above is from the official records. How does it feel to be so wrong all of the time?
 
2012-09-25 11:04:27 PM

tirob: Amos Quito: tirob:

The Zionists got plenty of help populating their state from other sources, too. Palestinians who have been displaced or otherwise persecuted during the last 65 years can thank governments in many an Arab country for throwing out their Jewish citizens and thus foisting them on Israel.

You didn't read the Martin Gilbert link yet, I see.

On the contrary. It's unresponsive to my point, though.


Be advised that if you exchange posts with this ??? for very long, you will need a very long and very hot shower. And regular soap is not going to be good enough.
 
2012-09-25 11:07:01 PM

Amos Quito: chuckufarlie: I know that you are not Jewish. I am thinking that you are an arab. Don't deny it, I could care less about what you have to


No, I'm no Arab, and have no particular affection for them or for the moose limbs.

[www.myteespot.com image 276x400]

BTW, I notice that your shift key seems to malfunction when you type the word "arabs", but that it seems to work just fine when you type the word "Jews".

Maybe you should have that looked at?


I already told you that I do not care what you response to that question is. I am very sure that I am correct in my thinking about your ethnicity. No affection for arabs? Maybe you should read your own posts, dumbass. My shift key works just fine. Only an arab would get upset about that.

And now your smelly arab ass goes back on ignore.
 
2012-09-25 11:36:44 PM

chuckufarlie: I explained to you what Hiroshima had not been attacked and I explained that wanting a city that was not damaged was a secondary reason.


Except your primary "reason", didn't come up even at 2/3rds of the way through the bombing campaign, and who knows how much longer it would be until your target would have continued to be deemed less important to bomb than other targets by the strategists. Hiroshima was a target of minor importance on the list of targets.

chuckufarlie: Why do you put so much stock in the fact that they wanted a city that was not damaged?


Really? Again?

^ Leslie Groves, Now it Can be Told: The Story of the Manhattan Project, 1962. In April 1945, General Groves was instructed to pick targets for the nuclear bombs. Page 267, "To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids." Four cities were chosen, including Hiroshima and Kyoto. War Secretary Stimson vetoed Kyoto, and Nagasaki was substituted. Page 275, "When our target cities were first selected, an order was sent to the Army Air Force in Guam not to bomb them without special authority from the War Department."

It truly amazes me that you're arguing against the statement of the very general who selected the target. You're either an idiot or completely delusional, I suspect some of each, but by all means, keep insisting that I'm the one on the losing end of this debate if it makes you sleep better. Goodnight.
 
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