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(Discover)   Male scientists show bias toward hiring men over women. You know who else shows bias towards hiring men? Female scientists   (blogs.discovermagazine.com) divider line 94
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1598 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Sep 2012 at 5:16 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-25 11:04:21 AM
My sister's working on a PhD in Physics at CalTech, so I'm sure she'd be getting a kick out of this article except she didn't get there by wasting her time on Fark like me.
 
2012-09-25 11:10:20 AM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: dready zim: Maths is hard.

So is Englishes.


Maths is actually how Math(ematic)s is shortened in the UK and Australia.
 
2012-09-25 11:12:51 AM

you have pee hands: My sister's working on a PhD in Physics at CalTech, so I'm sure she'd be getting a kick out of this article except she didn't get there by wasting her time on Fark like me.


Don't you wish your girlfriend sister was a freak on Fark, like me?

/sorry
//don't know why that popped into my head
///now it won't stop
 
2012-09-25 11:14:13 AM

Greymalkin: the hulking ubermensch that requires a real lab with real investement


thefwoosh.com
"What do you mean my paper wasn't published?!!"
 
2012-09-25 11:22:17 AM

mrexcess: DeaH
Really talented people - not just in science - can afford to be nice.

I think there's truth to that in terms of confidence, however there is a conflict there as well. A desire to not hurt peoples' feelings often comes into conflict with a desire to recognize and convey reality, because as the saying goes, rather often "the truth hurts". If someone spends a lot of brain power worrying about peoples' perceptions or even their own emotions, it can have the effect of blinding them to fundamental truths. So I think more often in the "really talented/smart" people domain than in others, you will meet people who aren't always conventionally "nice". Which isn't to say that they aren't nice - I wouldn't deny the sacrifice of a doctor that has to adopt a clinical attitude to become better at healing people. Of course, that itself can be a slippery slope from which emerge Mengeles and Unit 731s.


If someone lacks the interpersonal skills to lead or work on a team, not a lot of good science is going to happen. We no longer have a whole lot of solitary geniuses making breakthroughs in science. Of course, there are going to be smart/talented people who act like jack-offs. Sometimes, they will still be worth working with. Most of the time, they really do not provide the talent/skill/sheer genius needed to justify being a total prick. It's just that, in certain fields, people use being a pick as short-hand to notify others they are talented, skilled, or a sheer genius , and they are not. Too often, this fools too many people.
 
2012-09-25 11:34:25 AM

Subtle_Canary:

so wait, despite all the news that women are completing science and math based courses in far greater numbers than men, somehow the status quo of men maintaining the hiring procedure is still possible? id imagine that at a certain point they would be forced to hire women since the pool of candidates is supposedly in their favor by a larger degree.


[Citation needed]

More women are going to college. They are NOT going into science and math. STEM majors still have something like a 9:1 male; female ratio.
 
2012-09-25 11:36:27 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: /sorry
//don't know why that popped into my head
///now it won't stop


Sounds like you've been punished sufficiently.
 
2012-09-25 11:51:14 AM

Alonjar: More women are going to college. They are NOT going into science and math. STEM majors still have something like a 9:1 male; female ratio.


IIRC the STEM stats get highly skewed by engineering, math, and physics. The ratio is quite different in the Life Sciences, especially biological sciences and medicine.
 
2012-09-25 12:27:02 PM
And men cannot get hired as preschool teachers, hard time getting hired as elementary school teachers, hard time getting hired at dental hygienists, hard time getting positions as clerks/secretaries, will never get hired as a babysitter or housekeeper, you will be discriminated against and restricted if you are a male nurse....

No one cares about most of those jobs because they lack prestige and high pay but they are applicable to a much larger % of the population than being a scientist. If you are an average person and want to seek a job that has a good work/life balance then you have a great advantage being a woman.

It is not that I don't care about women being discriminated against in the some fields but all I can do is shrug. Yeah it sucks but it also annoys me when it only seems to be discussed from the perspective of women being discriminated against. Women now dominate the majority of majors in college, including medicine and I think even law. Men only dominate in computer science, engineering and maybe physics and chemistry. A women going into one of those fields has a better chance of receiving financial aid and scholarship opportunities. Fields traditionally dominated by women are asked to do nothing to attract men.

When all the focus is on the tip top of the pyramid then it appears that men do so much better and maybe in terms of raw earnings but even at the bottom and middle they tend to be jobs with unforgiving hours and physical labor.
 
2012-09-25 12:36:36 PM
DeaH
If someone lacks the interpersonal skills to lead or work on a team, not a lot of good science is going to happen.

There's truth to that, but it is not a binary matter at all. Some people are always more sociable than others, and depending on environmental factors even very personable people can become less so. Interpersonal skills are desireable but not the key talent posessed by good scientists.

We no longer have a whole lot of solitary geniuses making breakthroughs in science.

I get your point about the process of discovery being more collaborative than in the past, but were there ever very many?

Of course, there are going to be smart/talented people who act like jack-offs.

A very smart person once said that 'obsequiousness begets friendship, truth hatred'. How much of your 'not being a jack-off' equates to the 'being obsequious' in that old aphorism?
 
2012-09-25 01:00:50 PM

Jedekai: /Nothing's sexier than a brain.


BRAIN PORN THREAD!

i.imgur.com

Source
=Smidge=
 
2012-09-25 01:11:10 PM

doglover: Women are chased out of science and engineering by the culture. It's a boys' club of insufferable pricks, and only people who like boys' clubs full of insufferable pricks advance in the field. Once you're far enough in to be hiring people, male or female, you're used to the status quo and seek to maintain it. So they set up a NEW boys' club full of insufferable pricks.

If we could blow the lid off math and learn to make it appealing to the same people who currently avoid it but are smart enough to do it, we could get a change of the guard and get some stereotypically non-scientific types in the field. Even Feynman was kind of square. We need some creative people in the field to come up with new things to investigate and generally let the pompous hot air out.


This is science, not writing poetry or baking a pie.
 
2012-09-25 01:20:57 PM
a large number of women have floating through their lives on the wave of affirmative action in the sciences with the buoyancy of their tits. One example, is a girl i got put into a group with. she did nothing for 2 months while the men did all of the work. she specifically chose her senior design group to be men that wouldn't care if she did nothing. She got a job with Boeing as a freshman for going to a society of women engineers meeting. She has her rent paid for by her boyfriend. She has a pussy whipped nice guy make her breakfast every morning. its really sad and i have zero respect for her because she uses her gender as a replacement for merit.
 
2012-09-25 01:31:31 PM
Sexism can't be fixed overnight.

Also, in hiring people get discriminated against for all kinds of things besides gender: race, attractiveness, height, weight, first and last names, disabilities, sexual orientation, etc.

In hiring they should try to keep things anonymous as long as possible like with the orchestra thing.
 
2012-09-25 01:36:08 PM

mrexcess: DeaH
If someone lacks the interpersonal skills to lead or work on a team, not a lot of good science is going to happen.

There's truth to that, but it is not a binary matter at all. Some people are always more sociable than others, and depending on environmental factors even very personable people can become less so. Interpersonal skills are desireable but not the key talent posessed by good scientists.

We no longer have a whole lot of solitary geniuses making breakthroughs in science.

I get your point about the process of discovery being more collaborative than in the past, but were there ever very many?

Of course, there are going to be smart/talented people who act like jack-offs.

A very smart person once said that 'obsequiousness begets friendship, truth hatred'. How much of your 'not being a jack-off' equates to the 'being obsequious' in that old aphorism?


Another smart person once pointed out to me that it doesn't do any good to tell the truth if you do it in a way people cannot hear. Look, I have no problem with blunt statement of fact. What I have a problem with is jerkoffs trying to pretend that their dickish behavior is a badge of genius. It's not. This isn't about feelings - not even the fragile egos of the men who think they have a precious genius so rare no one "gets it." Refusing to hire a woman because you might hurt her feeling with your genius is weapons-grade dumb.
 
2012-09-25 01:40:31 PM

macil22: And men cannot get hired as preschool teachers, hard time getting hired as elementary school teachers, hard time getting hired at dental hygienists, hard time getting positions as clerks/secretaries, will never get hired as a babysitter or housekeeper, you will be discriminated against and restricted if you are a male nurse....

No one cares about most of those jobs because they lack prestige and high pay but they are applicable to a much larger % of the population than being a scientist. If you are an average person and want to seek a job that has a good work/life balance then you have a great advantage being a woman.

It is not that I don't care about women being discriminated against in the some fields but all I can do is shrug. Yeah it sucks but it also annoys me when it only seems to be discussed from the perspective of women being discriminated against. Women now dominate the majority of majors in college, including medicine and I think even law. Men only dominate in computer science, engineering and maybe physics and chemistry. A women going into one of those fields has a better chance of receiving financial aid and scholarship opportunities. Fields traditionally dominated by women are asked to do nothing to attract men.

When all the focus is on the tip top of the pyramid then it appears that men do so much better and maybe in terms of raw earnings but even at the bottom and middle they tend to be jobs with unforgiving hours and physical labor.


Where on earth did you hear that? Elementary schools are going out of their way to try to hire male teachers. They have a hard time getting men because the pay level is so low for education-level required for the job.
 
2012-09-25 01:46:03 PM

evilboyevil: Prank Call of Cthulhu: dready zim: Maths is hard.

So is Englishes.

Maths is actually how Math(ematic)s is shortened in the UK and Australia.


Wouldn't "maths" take a plural verb?
 
2012-09-25 01:49:54 PM
imgs.xkcd.com
 
2012-09-25 01:59:47 PM

GF named my left testicle thundercles: a large number of women have floating through their lives on the wave of affirmative action in the sciences with the buoyancy of their tits. One example, is a girl i got put into a group with. she did nothing for 2 months while the men did all of the work. she specifically chose her senior design group to be men that wouldn't care if she did nothing. She got a job with Boeing as a freshman for going to a society of women engineers meeting. She has her rent paid for by her boyfriend. She has a pussy whipped nice guy make her breakfast every morning. its really sad and i have zero respect for her because she uses her gender as a replacement for merit.


[Man acts like a tard in the lab]: "Wow, that guy is a total tard!"
[Woman acts like a tard in the lab]: "Wow, women are total tards!"
 
2012-09-25 02:00:34 PM

lordargent: [imgs.xkcd.com image 410x211]


Should have refreshed first!

/*shakes fist*
 
2012-09-25 02:36:43 PM

turboke: What men like to think a female scientist looks like:

[www.coneinc.com image 448x299]

What a female scientist actually looks like:

[www.fisher.co.uk image 170x181]

That could've been worse.


Oh, let's kill that noise right now.

i.ytimg.com

deep_impact_her.jpg
 
2012-09-25 02:41:12 PM
DeaH
Another smart person once pointed out to me that it doesn't do any good to tell the truth if you do it in a way people cannot hear.

Continuing in our theme of discussion via aphorism, another valuable one is "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". There is an important distinction between inability to hear and unwillingness to listen.

Look, I have no problem with blunt statement of fact. What I have a problem with is jerkoffs trying to pretend that their dickish behavior is a badge of genius. It's not.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I'm not going to attempt to argue that genius doesn't tend to inculcate certain traits that you might personally perceive as "dickish", both because that's a really subjective term and because I actually suspect that in some cases it might well do just that. The cognition of very smart people is, rather obviously, not quite like that of everyone else. To entertain the notion that such cognitive differences would present only benefits without drawbacks strikes me as unrealistic. In my experience, very intelligent people do tend towards sharing some common traits that might be called "dickish" - among others, independence of thought, a willingness to ignore social norms, mistrust of those perceived as less competent.

Refusing to hire a woman because you might hurt her feeling with your genius is weapons-grade dumb.

I tend to agree, but there can be other circumstances at play. As a manager, am I doing my job properly if I attempt to change the culture of the entire organization so that I can hire a female without running the risk of lawsuits? If I know that my employees tend to sit around telling off-color jokes while they work, is it a good idea to bring in someone who poses a risk of disrupting the functioning of that team? I don't say that there's a universally correct answer, it's just a question that I think does deserve some consideration.
 
2012-09-25 04:09:54 PM

Subtle_Canary: so wait, despite all the news that women are completing science and math based courses in far greater numbers than men


You've never been in a physics department, have you?
 
2012-09-25 04:18:04 PM

macil22: And men cannot get hired as preschool teachers, hard time getting hired as elementary school teachers, hard time getting hired at dental hygienists, hard time getting positions as clerks/secretaries,


What is the evidence that any of those claims are true?
 
2012-09-25 04:46:28 PM
Someone zip this over to Jezebel, while i make the popcorn.
 
2012-09-25 05:04:18 PM

Tommy Moo: 20 and 30 years ago there were very few females getting PhDs in science


and today, there are a lot more, because almost any women who want one get one.
Maybe people start to notice that a female Dr from less than 20 years ago shouldn't be taken to seriously.
 
2012-09-25 05:13:44 PM

mrexcess: Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I'm not going to attempt to argue that genius doesn't tend to inculcate certain traits that you might personally perceive as "dickish"


What I am talking about is the kind of behavior that is used as an excuse for not hiring a woman. That does carry a broad range of possibilities from inappropriate touch and sexual predation to screaming and throwing things. (Although, really, that's behavior that no human should have to work with.) And, no, I don't think that those behaviors track with scientific or artistic genius. Behaviors such as near Asperger-level social ineptitude should never be an excuse not to hire a woman. They tend to deal with it quite well.

mrexcess: As a manager, am I doing my job properly if I attempt to change the culture of the entire organization so that I can hire a female without running the risk of lawsuits? If I know that my employees tend to sit around telling off-color jokes while they work, is it a good idea to bring in someone who poses a risk of disrupting the functioning of that team? I don't say that there's a universally correct answer, it's just a question that I think does deserve some consideration.


Fair question. Let me reply with another question, do you not hire someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson because the guys like to sit around telling racist jokes?
 
2012-09-25 05:16:59 PM

DeaH: Fair question. Let me reply with another question, do you not hire someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson because the guys like to sit around telling racist jokes?


Neil would probably respond by making a gesture with both hands and implying sarcastically that the person making the joke is of an intimidating character and should be avoided.
 
2012-09-25 05:21:20 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: DeaH: Fair question. Let me reply with another question, do you not hire someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson because the guys like to sit around telling racist jokes?

Neil would probably respond by making a gesture with both hands and implying sarcastically that the person making the joke is of an intimidating character and should be avoided.


But would you know that if he didn't have a public reputation? Would you not hire a brilliant black scientist because it might be disruptive to your racist employees?
 
2012-09-25 05:40:11 PM

DivorceWar Veteran: turboke: What men like to think a female scientist looks like:

[www.coneinc.com image 448x299]

What a female scientist actually looks like:

[www.fisher.co.uk image 170x181]

That could've been worse.

Oh, let's kill that noise right now.

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

deep_impact_her.jpg


At first glance I thought that was Michael Jackson.
 
2012-09-25 05:54:22 PM

On-Off: and today, there are a lot more, because almost any women who want one get one.
Maybe people start to notice that a female Dr from less than 20 years ago shouldn't be taken to seriously.


What, because there are more female PhDs? Seriously? And do you think it's any easier for a woman to get a PhD than a man?
 
2012-09-25 07:04:07 PM

Pocket_Fisherman: Men are better scientists than women on average. Their should be a bias towards men in a fair system. Yes I know this will get a lot of hate but just because we want to, as a society, encourage women into the sciences doesn't mean they are just as good at them as men. 

Hate to follow I'm sure, but it is what it is.


Not sure what you mean by "bias" if you mean by bias in raw numbers, yes there'd probably be more men in a fair system.

If you're saying that given all qualification equal that you should pick the man because of the numbers, then no, you're just plain wrong. If all qualifications are equal, pick traits like team player or solo worker depending on what sort of work is involved. Gender shouldn't come into play.

I mean if you're stating that men on average are better scientists, I can just counter that men on average are more likely to be criminals.
 
2012-09-25 07:12:42 PM

entropic_existence: the_geek: When my daughter was born I used two weeks of my own vacation time. In the U.S. only one parent gets 'maternity leave.' 99.99999% of the time this is the woman. The only real exception is if the woman dies during childbirth, is in jail, or is somehow otherwise unable to care for the child.

So I don't know where you come from, but here the system itself is sexist because it conveys benefits to women that are not given to men.

The US basically has the worst maternity system in the world. Federally you have zero guaranteed weeks of mat leave.

[thinkprogress.org image 850x641] 

Seriously, farking Pakistan gives you more guaranteed time off to have a child.


Technically incorrect. Federally, you have 12 weeks of guaranteed unpaid maternity or paternity leave. Guarantees normal benefits and job retention.

Even with a "paid" qualifier, still misleading. Between state law requirements and voluntary corporate leave programs, more than half of women in the united states get paid leave. Work remains to be done, but the situation is not as dire as your statement or infographic suggest.
 
2012-09-25 07:13:26 PM
blogs.discovermagazine.com

Wow, that's a huge diff... Your axis starts at 25k and extends to 31k? I wonder what happens if we extend and scale to give an accurate idea of the difference between the tw- oh.

www.neoterrastudios.com

/Not saying it's right or acceptable
//I just really hate visually misleading graphs
 
2012-09-25 07:25:09 PM

ProfessorOhki: //I just really hate visually misleading graphs


You and I both.
 
2012-09-25 07:43:10 PM

mcmnky: ProfessorOhki: //I just really hate visually misleading graphs

You and I both.


Haha, thanks for the curse of non-productivity :)
 
2012-09-25 08:18:45 PM

ProfessorOhki: mcmnky: ProfessorOhki: //I just really hate visually misleading graphs

You and I both.

Haha, thanks for the curse of non-productivity :)


Muhahaha! 

/you're welcome
 
2012-09-25 08:31:26 PM

Ghastly: It's amazing how many women tell me they absolutely hate working for other women. I hear the same thing a lot of the time from Asians about working for other Asians.


Ditto. And the same goes for Indians working for other Indians. Black folks working for other black folks. And when they've talked with me about this, they've been very specific about the problems they have with it. As their white guy friend, I just quietly sit there and listen to them gripe. I can't agree with them or nod in sympathy, because it might be taken the wrong way. Still, it's a fascinating phenomenon.

As for me, personally... Sex, race or ethnicity doesn't matter. I just don't like working for people who overestimate their own intelligence/importance, and I don't like bosses who feel that being the boss gives them the right to lie to their employees. If we can get past those two things, then micromanagement would be my only other complaint, although bosses who fall into at least one of the other categories also have a tendency to be micromanagers.
 
2012-09-26 03:49:27 AM

DeaH: evilboyevil: Prank Call of Cthulhu: dready zim: Maths is hard.

So is Englishes.

Maths is actually how Math(ematic)s is shortened in the UK and Australia.

Wouldn't "maths" take a plural verb?


mathematics is hard, not mathematics are hard. Mathematics is the name for the science, not the plural of mathematic.
 
2012-09-26 03:50:18 AM

Fark Me To Tears: Ghastly: It's amazing how many women tell me they absolutely hate working for other women. I hear the same thing a lot of the time from Asians about working for other Asians.

Ditto. And the same goes for Indians working for other Indians. Black folks working for other black folks. And when they've talked with me about this, they've been very specific about the problems they have with it. As their white guy friend, I just quietly sit there and listen to them gripe. I can't agree with them or nod in sympathy, because it might be taken the wrong way. Still, it's a fascinating phenomenon.

As for me, personally... Sex, race or ethnicity doesn't matter. I just don't like working for people who overestimate their own intelligence/importance, and I don't like bosses who feel that being the boss gives them the right to lie to their employees. If we can get past those two things, then micromanagement would be my only other complaint, although bosses who fall into at least one of the other categories also have a tendency to be micromanagers.


So if women AND men hire women less it`s not men being sexist against women, it`s everybody, women included, preferring to hire men.
 
2012-09-26 05:06:31 AM

Ambitwistor: On-Off: and today, there are a lot more, because almost any women who want one get one.
Maybe people start to notice that a female Dr from less than 20 years ago shouldn't be taken to seriously.

What, because there are more female PhDs? Seriously? And do you think it's any easier for a woman to get a PhD than a man?


well, in Germany, in science, up to the "Diplom", it is the same. When you want to make a "Doctorarbeit", you have to be among the best if you are male. If you are female, you always find a place. We already have anti-male bias.
 
2012-09-26 08:15:07 AM

dready zim: mathematics is hard, not mathematics are hard. Mathematics is the name for the science, not the plural of mathematic.


Yeah, I was going to work out today, but I got interrupted in the middle of my first calisthenic.

turboke: What men like to think a female scientist looks like:


Dude, some of the hottest women I've ever known were Physicists. There was a Canadian astrophysics grad student at my last school that I used to rock climb with... holy fark. Face of an angel, body of a porn star. The view while belaying her was often the highlight of my day. "Hangdog that climb all you want, darlin'. Take your time... Don't worry about me."

doglover: Women are chased out of science and engineering by the culture. It's a boys' club of insufferable pricks, and only people who like boys' clubs full of insufferable pricks advance in the field.


Ambitwistor: You've never been in a physics department, have you?


CSB time:

I'm an American currently studying Physics in SE Asia. At my school in the States, out of a freshman class of over 300 Physics students, there were maybe 10-20 girls. At my school over here, the entire undergrad Physics dept. numbers less than 300 students, but almost half are girls. 50% of the faculty, and grad students are also female. It's like a cornucopia of hot intelligent women.

Unfortunately,

a) I'm married, and
b) even if I weren't, most of the students are between 16 and 18 (they only do 2 years of high school here)

/ they're damn cute, though
// having a seat over there
 
2012-09-26 08:59:52 AM

dready zim: Fark Me To Tears: Ghastly: It's amazing how many women tell me they absolutely hate working for other women. I hear the same thing a lot of the time from Asians about working for other Asians.

Ditto. And the same goes for Indians working for other Indians. Black folks working for other black folks. And when they've talked with me about this, they've been very specific about the problems they have with it. As their white guy friend, I just quietly sit there and listen to them gripe. I can't agree with them or nod in sympathy, because it might be taken the wrong way. Still, it's a fascinating phenomenon.

As for me, personally... Sex, race or ethnicity doesn't matter. I just don't like working for people who overestimate their own intelligence/importance, and I don't like bosses who feel that being the boss gives them the right to lie to their employees. If we can get past those two things, then micromanagement would be my only other complaint, although bosses who fall into at least one of the other categories also have a tendency to be micromanagers.

So if women AND men hire women less it`s not men being sexist against women, it`s everybody, women included, preferring to hire men.


No, it's both women and men being sexist.
 
2012-09-28 07:32:36 PM

turboke: DivorceWar Veteran: turboke: What men like to think a female scientist looks like:

[www.coneinc.com image 448x299]

What a female scientist actually looks like:

[www.fisher.co.uk image 170x181]

That could've been worse.

Oh, let's kill that noise right now.

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

deep_impact_her.jpg

At first glance I thought that was Michael Jackson.


Ok, at least I'm not the only one.

/to be fair, her face is more like what MJ was trying to look like
//she's actually pretty, but the resemblance is just enough to creep me out slightly
 
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