offmymeds: What I meant to say was that you pay a cop low wages, you get someone who is perhaps not quite up to expectations.
CruiserTwelve: devlin carnate: The SPD also had to pay out 2 separate "Please don't sue us" settlements totaling over $130k because Sgt. Oinksalot was so innocent.Wipe off your chin before you go on parking lot duty, Cruiser 12.The city settled two suits without going to trial. That was their choice and it happens all the time. It doesn't mean the guy did anything wrong. He had no say in the settlement.Look, I never apologized for or agreed with the guys behavior. What I said was that the cop followed the set procedure for appealing his discipline, and it was determined through that process that he did not commit the violations he was charged with and had been terminated for. You may disagree with that finding and maybe I might disagree with that finding but that's irrelevant. The people that have the final say in the matter said his actions did not constitute a violation of policy.Let's put it this way - I'm not defending the cop, I'm defending the system. Would you at least agree that there should be some kind of disciplinary system for cops, and should that system include an appeals process outside the department?
CruiserTwelve: brianbankerus: Seattle's "citizens review board" is made up of one prosecutor, one cop, and one retired cop... they never find any merit in citizen complaints, which puts my mind at ease. I mean, they are impartial.This wasn't a civilian review board, it was a civil service board.
IRQ12: No, it's the completely off the rails impunity which officers are afforded that makes the news
IRQ12: generally they are being protected by the "good ones" who are "bad ones" because they allow it.
IRQ12: offmymeds: What I meant to say was that you pay a cop low wages, you get someone who is perhaps not quite up to expectations.The average income is ~50k$. What do you think is fair pay? You people act like they are picking up day workers.The "low wages" argument is just as bad as the "bbbut it's a dangerous job" or "they have little training". You kick a restrained person you are committing assault. I don't get paid extra a day to not kick people, it's part of being a law abiding citizen.
MycroftHolmes: You think it is more appropriate to be judged by people who are trying to judge appropriate actions for situations they have never been in? You honestly think that cops would get a fair review of their actions from politicians and elected city officials? Just read this thread and see how many idiotic 'kill all cops' and 'cops are the worst threat to america' derps there are, and tell me with a straight face that a board not made up of LEO or ex-LEO can honestly and objectively judge an LEO's actions.
brianbankerus: In Seattle they've never found merit in a citizen's complaint yet. I haven't seen the complaints to make a judgment, but I do think it's suspect that zero percent of complaints is valid.
PallMall: [ytrewq.com image 175x150]Oppa Gangnam Style Before it was cool!
Smackledorfer: .It seems pretty unrealistic to hold those views and demand excellence. I get the sentiment but it doesn't seem to hold up.
Karma313th: I don't know that it's a case of 'demanding excellence' so much as it's a case of demanding accountability.
Karma313th: So....to then see a cop who was fired for cause turn around and use a unionized "civil service" system to put him right back to work
OnlyM3: CruiserTwelve: he didn't do what he had originally been accused of doing!
Karma313th: After all, I think most realize how uncommon it is for a department to fire a cop to begin with. There are already so many obstacles and so much red tape that it's just easier to do the "bad cop, no donut" paid vacation thing.
fredklein: FTFA: ""This was really not a strong force that was used," Shelin said, as the board deliberated. "The man was drunk as a skunk and he was going to topple over easily. And apparently, that's all he did. It was an easy push with his foot, and the man fell over."Um, it doesn't matter if it was "an easy push" or not, it's still unnecessary force.[img402.imageshack.us image 677x150]
CruiserTwelve: I disagree. collective bargaining is a means of obtaining wages and benefits commensurate to the job.
Bruce Campbell: brianbankerus: In Seattle they've never found merit in a citizen's complaint yet. I haven't seen the complaints to make a judgment, but I do think it's suspect that zero percent of complaints is valid.They sure should have in this case.
PsiChick: edklein: FTFA: ""This was really not a strong force that was used," Shelin said, as the board deliberated. "The man was drunk as a skunk and he was going to topple over easily. And apparently, that's all he did. It was an easy push with his foot, and the man fell over."Um, it doesn't matter if it was "an easy push" or not, it's still unnecessary force.[img402.imageshack.us image 677x150]I agree, but there's a difference between a firing offense and a 'hey, dude, here, I'm gonna help you into the car'. Because it sounds like the cop should have taken the guy by the shoulders (or even just grabbed his shirt shoulders) to keep him upright./Seriously, the guy is falling over. How do you not reach out and help them up?//That said, still not a firing offense, just a couple weeks of retraining\some other slap on the wrist saying 'don't do that you idiot'.
relcec: PsiChick: edklein:I disagree.the standards for acceptable conduct should be much more demanding, not less as you suggest, for the folks that have a monopoly on applying lethal force to the citizenry and enforcing laws than on your average health aid at a group home.you'd straight up get fired DADS (department of aging and disability here in texas) for treating a patient like this if you were a health aid, why the f*ck do you want to give out get out of jail free passes for people charged with significantly more responsibility and that have the pension plans and pay checks to prove it? violent assault is not a training issue.
CruiserTwelve: I disagree. collective bargaining is a means of obtaining wages and benefits commensurate to the job. There's nothing evil about that. Civil Service allows for public safety employees to have a disciplinary process outside of the political arena. It protects cops from, say, getting fired for arresting the mayor for DUI. It also insulates cops from the political pressures placed upon their superiors by elected officials.
blipponaut: Everyone hates the police until they need them, then it's "Why didn't you get here quicker?"
MycroftHolmes: In the videos, the person is clearly trying to get up at the times the officer 'kicks' him.
MycroftHolmes: Nowhere does that equate to enough force to punch or kick the living crap out of someone. Are you serious?
Karma313th: Why is that you believe cops are a special class that should be entitled to the protections of not only a union, but a highly institutionally minded system like the "civil service" (which, in practice, serves as nothing more but an governmental labor relations board)?
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: Nowhere does that equate to enough force to punch or kick the living crap out of someone. Are you serious?[ytrewq.com image 175x150]Are YOU serious?
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: In the videos, the person is clearly trying to get up at the times the officer 'kicks' him.So? The cop would rather carry him into the jail, rather than let him ... get up and walk?As you point out, the officer is claerly not threatened or acting in fear or rage, based on his body language.Which makes the kicks completely unnecessary, and even more egregious, as they were not done in 'the heat of the moment'.Let me ask you this, Freddy, and it will be tough for you because it will require a little critical thinking...if the officer had used the EXACT same amount of force, but used his hands instead of his foot, would there be a problem here?Well, 'Mikey', I believe that a cop who unnecessarily shoved (with his hands) a suspect to the floor would be just as guilty as this cop.Isn't it possible that the real issue is not the actual application of force, but the perception of events?I think the issue is unnecessary application of force.
RanDomino: You could have just said, "Correct; the police can't actually protect you or your property, thereby negating their reason for existence."
MycroftHolmes: What is it that you think yo are seeing on that video? I see 1) relaxed body language, 2) no windup or follow through, and 3) a shift of weight pressing down on the person being subdued. This is not consistent with the idea that the person was having the crap kicked out of him (it is consistent with the lack of injuries from the alleged kick).
MycroftHolmes: So it all basically comes down to whether or not you think the officer was appropriate in trying to immobilize or subdue a drunk who was not following verbal commands.
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: What is it that you think yo are seeing on that video? I see 1) relaxed body language, 2) no windup or follow through, and 3) a shift of weight pressing down on the person being subdued. This is not consistent with the idea that the person was having the crap kicked out of him (it is consistent with the lack of injuries from the alleged kick).I see a man stomping on another man.In the later part of the video, I see a man kicking another man, causing him to fall over.
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: So it all basically comes down to whether or not you think the officer was appropriate in trying to immobilize or subdue a drunk who was not following verbal commands.I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that the cop's Escalation of Force chart went from 'verbal commands' straight to "stomp him into the ground' and 'kick him so he falls over'.So, in your mind, the cop wasn't wrong in how he applied the force necessary to subdue and immobilize the other party, he was wrong because he was trying to subdue him at all.The guy was on the ground- how much more 'subdued' can he get?I'll say that a different way- the guy didn't need to be subdued, so any action to 'subdue' him would have been unnecessary. Kicking him, punching him, tickling him with a feather. All unnecessary.
CruiserTwelve: Now consider that this occurs in a very political arena. Elected officials, who rely on votes to retain their livelyhoods, have a great deal of influence in how police officers do their jobs. When there's a high profile case that has even the slightest odor of being bad, there is often a great deal of political pressure to scapegoat the police. This is why civil service was incorporated into the police hiring and disciplinary process. In theory it puts a layer of insulation between those who make the rules and those that have to enforce the rules. It prevents the city council from hiring their friends and families as cops as used to be very common. It also prevents the politicians from firing a cop just because it's politically advantageous.
RanDomino: I would hope that they give you a medal.
Lsherm: fusillade762: It seems it's nearly impossible to get a cop fired. Hell, here in Portland one shot an unarmed, fleeing man in the back and killed him. The mayor fired him but arbitrators insisted he be reinstated.Public school teachers are the same way.
CruiserTwelve: The City of Sarasota's Civil Service Board has overturned the firing of a Sarasota Police officer from a 2009 incident.Wow! It's almost like the cop exercised his due process rights and an independent board comprised of non-cops found that he didn't do what he had originally been accused of doing! How unfair!
MycroftHolmes: I saw a man use his foot to push a man down and keep him down.
Smackledorfer: If a subject is ordered to stay down and gets up,
MycroftHolmes: The man was repeatedly trying to get up.
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: The man was repeatedly trying to get up.So? Even if/when he was able to get up, he wasn't going anywhere- they were in the parking lot of the jail.I don't have audio, so I can only assume he was told not to move.You know what they say about assumptions.So yes, if the officer was trying to immobilize him, as long as it was for a lawful reason (which has not been contested other than by you),The cop was FIRED. The city lost TWO lawsuits over his conduct. There was plenty of 'contesting' going on.It is not uncommon for officers to take uncooperative subjects to the ground."Take", not "send".i think it boils down to a very fundamental thing-the existence of police offends you.Not quite- the existence of cops who go around kicking handcuffed people to the ground and stomping on them offends me.
fredklein: MycroftHolmes: I saw a man use his foot to push a man down and keep him down....and that's okay??? If I did it to you, it'd be assault and battery.The man was not injured by the 'stomp'.So, 'no harm, no foul'?you can argue semantics all you want, but the long and the short of it was the officer used sufficient force to subdue and restrain a non-cooperative subject without injuring him.The guy was lying on the ground. Handcuffed. With pepper spray in his eyes. He didn't need to be subdued.
MycroftHolmes: Let me get this straight, a guy is getting taken to jail, he gets out the back window, and you think it is OK to just let him wander around?
MycroftHolmes: The guy had escaped from the back of the squad car and was actively trying to get up and walk away. Yes, he did. I am not sure how you even think this is a matter of debate.
fredklein: Smackledorfer: If a subject is ordered to stay down and gets up,Assumes facts not in evidence.that is active resistance. getting hands on and touching pressure points is accepted as a reasonable use of force.Is stomping someone considered 'reasonable'? I s kicking them so hard they fall over "reasonable"??is there a difference between pushing him down with a foot vs. a hand? Assume equal impact and pressure. If not, why not?No. They're both wrong.
fredklein: Not quite- the existence of cops who go around kicking handcuffed people to the ground and stomping on them offends me.
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