If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Atlantic)   "The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate fact from fantasy is what ails the conservative movement"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 292
    More: Interesting, human beings, compassionate conservatism, Ross Douthat, Matt Welch, Bruce Bartlett, Nick Gillespie, Matthew Continetti, Dinesh D'Souza  
•       •       •

4387 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Sep 2012 at 1:53 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



292 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-09-23 12:51:06 AM  
The United States needs a well-grounded conservative movement that rejects anti-intellectualism, that understands the need for reality-based communication, that cherishes the ability to make subtle and succinct, reasonable criticisms that can be supported with widely available and acceptable standards of evidence. It needs the skepticism and reflection that conservatism has provided in generations past. It needs a moral check on the utopian passions of liberalism. The author is prescient on this point. The National Review itself since Buckley's death is a stunning case example of the movement's decline. 
 
2012-09-23 02:02:17 AM  
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
 
2012-09-23 02:05:57 AM  
"The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate fact from fantasy is what ails the conservative movement"

www.esquire.com
 
2012-09-23 02:06:07 AM  

cman: fusillade762: cman: You have a good selection of quotes. I guess I have met my match.

Wow... can't say I was expecting that response.

Unless you're just being sarcastic. I have trouble telling anymore.

When I have been bested I admit it.

I can be a moron at times. I guess my best quality is that I am not blind to see that.


Yeah, you can, but don't be so hard on yourself. The only thing you tend to do--as you did here--is back yourself into an ideological corner without first ensuring you have an escape strategy. You actually have a valid point--there is self-delusion on the left as there is on the right. Not as much, and perhaps not as potentially damaging to US policy, but its there. However, you jumped first and had to defend something real with quickly-researched sound bites. Not the best way to support your point.

Seeing two sides of an issue is hard. I know, I try most of the time. If you GENUINELY want to demonstrate that there are crazy fringies in the left as well as in the right, take some time and prove it. Seriously, you've got the right instincts. Just being willing to admit you forgot to check your parachute is a refreshing change around here.
 
2012-09-23 02:08:51 AM  
A pretty good article, but then he just HAD to close with BSRB at the end.
 
2012-09-23 02:09:59 AM  
The GOP live in a world so completely divorced from reality that they're unable to process information like normal people.
 
2012-09-23 02:10:05 AM  
TFA asserts the GOP has lost the ability to objectively look at itself. Every criticism is now and unwarranted attack by nebulous conspiracy that gets ever more massive to paste over the beams of reality that keep shining through the cracks of their carefully manicured worldview.

The article's comments prove it.
 
2012-09-23 02:10:33 AM  
"The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate fact from fantasy is what ails the conservative movement"

I agree. It's what also ails just about any other movement these days. Bunch of tools and idiots.
 
2012-09-23 02:13:11 AM  
It's not just the conservatives. You don't really want to know what's behind anybody's opinion.
But people who are wrong for bad reasons make more of an impression than people who are right for the wrong reasons.
 
2012-09-23 02:15:09 AM  
Another fine case of "you will always know liberals by what they accuse others of"

There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.
 
2012-09-23 02:15:40 AM  

Alphax: A pretty good article, but then he just HAD to close with BSRB at the end.


Yeah, I don't understand why he ended with a pointless throw-away line
 
2012-09-23 02:16:57 AM  

randomjsa: Another fine case of "you will always know liberals by what they accuse others of"

There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.


Pop quiz: What am I thinking right now.
 
2012-09-23 02:21:29 AM  
Who needs to think? It's all about "sticking it to the libs". If the Dems want to pass the debt ceiling, fight tooth and nail until the credit rating suffers. Think Groucho Marx. " Whatever it is I'm against it".
 
2012-09-23 02:26:46 AM  

randomjsa: Another fine case of "you will always know liberals by what they accuse others of"

There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.


westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com

ashscrapyard.files.wordpress.com

www.4tnz.com

asparkofmoonlight.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-09-23 02:29:00 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: That's a good start. I would also say that what ails conservatives is the general mindset of "fark you, I got mine and no one else helped me along the way"


"I've been on food stamps and welfare. Did anyone help me out? NO!"
 
2012-09-23 02:30:16 AM  
Why should it be a problem? They managed to deify Ronald Reagan out of whole cloth.
 
2012-09-23 02:30:18 AM  
"For them, the ends justify the means."

You know who else thought like that?

Yep, the renegade Time Lord known as the Master.
 
2012-09-23 02:31:23 AM  
Sylvia! Yes, Mickey?
 
2012-09-23 02:33:22 AM  

Notabunny: Sylvia! Yes, Mickey?


That's two weeks in a row I've posted in the wrong thread. Soosh's show needs to come on earlier.
 
2012-09-23 02:37:24 AM  
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"- Adam Savage
 
2012-09-23 02:39:13 AM  

cman: fusillade762: cman: You have a good selection of quotes. I guess I have met my match.

Wow... can't say I was expecting that response.

Unless you're just being sarcastic. I have trouble telling anymore.

When I have been bested I admit it.

I can be a moron at times. I guess my best quality is that I am not blind to see that.


Wow! All I can say That is a brave statement to make here.
While I believe you grasp at straws most of the time, that is the most truthful thing you have said.
 
2012-09-23 02:40:22 AM  

LordZorch: While living in a fantasy land that is utterly disconnected from any semblance of reality, and an inability to apply rational thinking to any situation, is what ails liberals in general.


cman: The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate emotion from logic is what ails the Liberal movement


i10.photobucket.com

Every thread.
 
2012-09-23 02:42:52 AM  

randomjsa: Another fine case of "you will always know liberals by what they accuse others of"

There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.


SO right! Whenever I want to know what I am thinking on issues and to provide a solid working definition of what it is to be a modern liberal- I ask a far right wing conservative! Makes perfect sense!

I'll give ya this much, tool. Your statement that "conservatives don't have to lie to themselves" is fairly spot on. The denial and divorce from the truth and reality is so strong, you probably don't think it's exactly "a lie".
 
2012-09-23 02:43:44 AM  
;A group of rapacious sophists and craven idiots have found each other; and the laws of statistics being what they are, rare insight remains rare. If only this had ever happened before in human history we might have some idea of how to proceed or how it ends.
 
2012-09-23 02:47:17 AM  

This About That: from the TFA: "When we act, we create our own reality," he said. "And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."


I've been saying this for awhile.

Honesty and integrity don't exist in the minds of people who are corrupt and deceitful. It doesn't occur to them that others don't do the things they do (cf. projection), so in their minds their opponents are already criminals irrespective of the actual facts. And if they aren't, no, they are, and their mission is to expose them as frauds. If it does not exist -- no, it does exist, and they will expose it through obfuscation, lies, and trickery if they have to. Essentially, invent something that might not actually be there. I suppose you could call it self-enforced psychosis, but on a much less clinical level it's simply Colbert's "truthiness" in the hands of concentrated media.

Because after all, to the kleptomaniac of truth, it does not matter what the facts are, only who believes in them. I prefer to call this Orwellian Journalism (like yellow journalism before it, only instead of merely sensationalizing news, it actively creates new news on top of old news, like a palimpsest, erasing and rewriting history in a manner of their choosing). Each side devolving into a war over public opinion, public perception, and public acceptance of factual events. And all of it driven by lies, hatred, folly, evasion, obfuscation, deceptive editing, and mistrust. The ends justifies the means. There are no journalistic standards.

And it's hurting America.
 
2012-09-23 02:49:33 AM  
Well. Once again, we get the two headed beast of conservatism . . . nonsense and cynicism . . . religious nonsense, asserting that (arbitrary) interpretations of ancient texts somehow should hold sway over the vast body of knowledge that humans have accumulated . . . shameful, deeply shameful, I really don't understand why this is such a big problem in America. The second head is the corporatism that runs rampant through both parties, but certainly finds more fertile ground in the Republican party . . . climate change deniers being the single most obvious example . . . even Exxon (Exxon!!) is now a little embarrassed by their track record with this. Yet their investment continues to bear fruit, with willful ignorance on obvious display not just among our populace, but with our elected leaders.
 
2012-09-23 02:52:59 AM  

randomjsa: There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.


To be fair, it is excruciatingly hard to accurately assess the thoughts patterns of a crazy person.
 
2012-09-23 02:54:15 AM  

brianbankerus: They've got you guys, you know.


Joke's on them. I've got Adblock.
 
2012-09-23 02:56:07 AM  
A "win at all costs" mentality tends to end up being very costly.
The conservatives will wake up one day and realize that they long ago lost the moral high ground and have been serving darkness for a lot longer than their religions would permit.
By living in this delusional fantasy world, they keep digging the karmic hole without any understanding about how much damage they are causing to themselves cosmically.
 
2012-09-23 02:57:03 AM  

Ishkur: Because after all, to the kleptomaniac of truth, it does not matter what the facts are, only who believes in them.


Perception is reality.

...

*weeps bitterly*
 
2012-09-23 02:59:10 AM  
Single funniest thing about conservative radio . . . the number of ideas they project into the minds of the opposition . . . dunno why that isn't obviously goofy to any listener
 
2012-09-23 03:00:57 AM  
Here's the take-away, all the way at the end of the article:

"On the right today, they (hucksters) are so numerous, prominent and shameless, their pathologies so ingrained in right-wing media and politics, their wealth so corrupting to young talent, and their pathologies so seldom challenged by those who know better, that Republicans are operating at a persistent information disadvantage. (Too many believe even their own bullshiat.) The Bush Administration showed that it's possible to win at the ballot box anyway"

And the GOP continues to prove it. Being completely divorced from reality and decency has not stopped the GOP from remaining a political power to be reckoned with, whereas dealing with reality would force the GOP to make painful and possibly party-ending ideological shifts. The GOP has no reason to change, and every reason to keep on as they have been, until slow attrition of the elderly GOP voters forces the GOP to finally get with the program.
 
2012-09-23 03:01:10 AM  
I have to work with actual conservatives where I work. They are so farking childish, they are more interested in labeling people and ideas and decide based on said labels. I wish them dead.
 
2012-09-23 03:06:01 AM  

This About That: Horrifying, yet occasionally useful quote from TFA: "When we act, we create our own reality," he said. "And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

I've been saying the same thing in much simpler terms for decades: "You can't have a reasoned argument with people who just make sh*t up".


The guy who said that... was his name O'Brien?
 
2012-09-23 03:18:07 AM  

cman: cameroncrazy1984: cman: cameroncrazy1984: cman: The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate emotion from logic is what ails the Liberal movement

Examples, please.

Perfect example

Please explain how that demonstrates an inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate emotion from logic? He seemed to make a pretty logical argument. Or were you confused by the word "subtle"?

Because of the simple fact that Liberals want to see racism in everything the GOP does, so they will see it in everything they do. There is not even a hint of subtle racism in that commercial. To think such is to blind yourself like these conservatives blind themselves between reality and fantasy.


No, we don't want to see it, but for that to happen, the right has to stop doing it.
 
2012-09-23 03:19:14 AM  

cman: The inability to judge arguments on their merits and separate emotion from logic is what ails the Liberal movement


4.bp.blogspot.com

What "logic" looks like

you farking tool.
 
2012-09-23 03:19:32 AM  

pippi longstocking: I have to work with actual conservatives where I work. They are so farking childish, they are more interested in labeling people and ideas and decide based on said labels. I wish them dead.


I have Teabaggers at work. The protest-in-the-street-while-waving-a-flag variety. There's no talking to them. Like you said, they're primary focus is affixing labels as quickly as possible, and then dismissing anything they don't like based on how they've labeled the speaker. And they view nearly everything through their politics. Where they have lunch, where they buy gas, their weekend hobbies, the clothes they wear, the cars they buy, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is good or bad on it's own merits. Everything, everything, everything must first be judged politically acceptable. What a way to live.
 
2012-09-23 03:20:33 AM  

sonnyboy11: randomjsa: Another fine case of "you will always know liberals by what they accuse others of"

There is a reason that conservatives can accurately tell you what liberals think on issues and liberals cannot accurately tell you what conservatives think on issues. This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.

SO right! Whenever I want to know what I am thinking on issues and to provide a solid working definition of what it is to be a modern liberal- I ask a far right wing conservative! Makes perfect sense!

I'll give ya this much, tool. Your statement that "conservatives don't have to lie to themselves" is fairly spot on. The denial and divorce from the truth and reality is so strong, you probably don't think it's exactly "a lie".


i.ytimg.com
Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.
 
2012-09-23 03:20:43 AM  

dahmers love zombie: The List of Conspirators

List of People Conspiring Against the GOP, and therefor, America
(LOPCATGOPATA for short):
Pennies


I'd love to know the story.
 
2012-09-23 03:22:19 AM  

randomjsa: This would be because conservatives don't have to lie to themselves and everyone else in order to make what they think seem right.


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-09-23 03:27:42 AM  
As someone who cannot vote in this election and whose only issue that affects him is the tax rate, the republicans are complete farking morons.

Any of you idiots who comment supporting the republicans are farking morons. There is no defense. They are a bunch of plutocrats manipulating racist hillbillies into voting against their own interests. Just do yourselves a favor and vote for the "magic negro" because the magic underwear will only leave you broken and betrayed.
 
2012-09-23 03:29:32 AM  

hillbillypharmacist: Cman, you might could get a technical win by finding quotes from conservative southern democrats, especially from 40 or so years ago.

I'm just trying to help you out.


Don't help him out. Let the mutant turd remove himself from the bloodline.
 
2012-09-23 03:31:48 AM  

stonicus: This About That: Horrifying, yet occasionally useful quote from TFA: "When we act, we create our own reality," he said. "And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

I've been saying the same thing in much simpler terms for decades: "You can't have a reasoned argument with people who just make sh*t up".

The guy who said that... was his name O'Brien?


If you are referring to "people who make sh*t up" well, I made it up. To put it another way, and I know this from firsthand experience, if the audience (or the proletariat) can't tell the difference, then the glib bullsh*tters can easily convince a non-thinking audience. This must be the reason for the astounding recent open opposition to critical thinking.
 
2012-09-23 03:33:34 AM  

fusillade762: I know some liberals have blind spots when it comes to fracking


Just as a counter to this statement, here's a panel of Medical Doctors and Veterinarians (Well known liberal vocations, right?) speaking on the Health Impacts of Hydraulic Fracturing that they have seen so far:

Youtube Playlist

You should look a little more seriously at the complaints of people who have been impacted by this process.
Also, too...this industry should NOT be allowed to enforce non disclosure agreements on the people who have been hurt by this industry.
THAT is why there is so little provable data in the public domain, those who are impacted are legally prevented from discussing it.

I personally HATE the use of false dichotomies like "LIberal-Conservative"
It is a false dichotomy that is used to divide and conquer.

And if you play that game, you're part of the problem.
 
2012-09-23 03:35:26 AM  

This About That: stonicus: This About That: Horrifying, yet occasionally useful quote from TFA: "When we act, we create our own reality," he said. "And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

I've been saying the same thing in much simpler terms for decades: "You can't have a reasoned argument with people who just make sh*t up".

The guy who said that... was his name O'Brien?

If you are referring to "people who make sh*t up" well, I made it up. To put it another way, and I know this from firsthand experience, if the audience (or the proletariat) can't tell the difference, then the glib bullsh*tters can easily convince a non-thinking audience. This must be the reason for the astounding recent open opposition to critical thinking.


Nah, was referring to the "create our own reality" part...

/'84 ref
 
2012-09-23 03:39:14 AM  
How many different polite ways do you need to come up with to call someone a stupid, ignorant ideologue?
 
2012-09-23 03:40:49 AM  

Notabunny: pippi longstocking: I have to work with actual conservatives where I work. They are so farking childish, they are more interested in labeling people and ideas and decide based on said labels. I wish them dead.

I have Teabaggers at work. The protest-in-the-street-while-waving-a-flag variety. There's no talking to them. Like you said, they're primary focus is affixing labels as quickly as possible, and then dismissing anything they don't like based on how they've labeled the speaker. And they view nearly everything through their politics. Where they have lunch, where they buy gas, their weekend hobbies, the clothes they wear, the cars they buy, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is good or bad on it's own merits. Everything, everything, everything must first be judged politically acceptable. What a way to live.


Today my aunt's Teabagger live-in significant other (oh yes, she's all for denying me access to the institution that she's unwilling to participate in, though that's another matter) replied to a comment I made on my mom's facebook by saying that "Rynthetyn is once again stuck in stupid!" The comment I made that got such a response? Relating an anecdote from my lunch with Clarence Thomas about how he made fun of Scalia for being "a city boy who likes to kill poor defenseless animals who did nothing to him." Apparently now the simple telling of the story of one conservative Supreme Court justice making fun of another conservative Supreme Court justice over his hobby of hunting animals for sport is not politically acceptable, even if one is quoting verbatim. Dude is so incapable of looking at things through anything other than a political lens 24/7 that he can't conceive of the possibility that someone might relate a story because it's humorous.
 
2012-09-23 03:41:49 AM  
So where did it all start?

Is this just Creationism, with it's denial of evidence and subscription to an alternate reality, applied to politics in general?
 
2012-09-23 03:47:36 AM  

rynthetyn: Notabunny: pippi longstocking: I have to work with actual conservatives where I work. They are so farking childish, they are more interested in labeling people and ideas and decide based on said labels. I wish them dead.

I have Teabaggers at work. The protest-in-the-street-while-waving-a-flag variety. There's no talking to them. Like you said, they're primary focus is affixing labels as quickly as possible, and then dismissing anything they don't like based on how they've labeled the speaker. And they view nearly everything through their politics. Where they have lunch, where they buy gas, their weekend hobbies, the clothes they wear, the cars they buy, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is good or bad on it's own merits. Everything, everything, everything must first be judged politically acceptable. What a way to live.

Today my aunt's Teabagger live-in significant other (oh yes, she's all for denying me access to the institution that she's unwilling to participate in, though that's another matter) replied to a comment I made on my mom's facebook by saying that "Rynthetyn is once again stuck in stupid!" The comment I made that got such a response? Relating an anecdote from my lunch with Clarence Thomas about how he made fun of Scalia for being "a city boy who likes to kill poor defenseless animals who did nothing to him." Apparently now the simple telling of the story of one conservative Supreme Court justice making fun of another conservative Supreme Court justice over his hobby of hunting animals for sport is not politically acceptable, even if one is quoting verbatim. Dude is so incapable of looking at things through anything other than a political lens 24/7 that he can't conceive of the possibility that someone might relate a story because it's humorous.


My grandmother's neighbor was a John Bircher. He was really into it. He always had these little booklets with him, ready to hand out to anyone who would listen. Even he wasn't as dogmatic and consumed as these Teabaggers. It's an interesting and sad phenomenon to watch.
 
2012-09-23 03:55:36 AM  
the party of progressive smart folks has become the party of dumb crackers

someone get me a phd dissertation stat!
 
Displayed 50 of 292 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report