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(Forbes)   Antarctic ice sets new globa, er, climate change record   (forbes.com) divider line 182
    More: Unlikely, climate change, ice  
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2837 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Sep 2012 at 6:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-19 03:50:50 PM  
I am senior fellow for environment policy at the Heartland Institute

Sounds like someone to take seriously
 
2012-09-19 03:53:50 PM  
Caused by warmer oceans increasing precipitation over Antarctica. Increased precipitation over seas around Antarctica slightly alters the salinity the surface layers which in turn slows the halocline currents, and that keeps the currents from melting quite so much ice.
 
2012-09-19 03:55:31 PM  

vpb: I am senior fellow for environment policy at the Heartland Institute

Sounds like someone to take seriously


Their idea of "environmental policy" is that God gave man dominion over the Earth, so we can do whatever we want.
 
2012-09-19 04:01:05 PM  

vpb: I am senior fellow for environment policy at the Heartland Institute

Sounds like someone to take seriously


Huh. Who knew the Wall Street Journal would have questionable people on staff..... oh wait.


"Nine Wall Street Journal Op-ed Writers Who Weren't Disclosed As Romney Advisers"

http://mm4a.org/PTjna3
 
2012-09-19 04:07:31 PM  
Is this the point where we describe the principle of variance?
 
2012-09-19 04:08:17 PM  
 
2012-09-19 04:12:57 PM  
And his data is based on ice area.

So, how deep is the ice?
 
2012-09-19 04:16:39 PM  
His blog sucks.

His byline: I write about energy and environment issues with great degrees of ignorance. Fixed it for him.
 
2012-09-19 04:33:07 PM  
The fail in this article is unbelievable and is lacking a lot of scientific information.

For example, Antarctica is a continent, unlike the Arctic. Is the antarctic sea ice at a record because it is falling/melting off of Antarctica? How deep is the ice. Is he aware that some predicted more snow would fall on Antarctica because of warmer temperatures?

I'm going to chock this one down to this person being a tool.
 
2012-09-19 05:17:29 PM  

vpb: I am senior fellow for environment policy at the Heartland Institute


sounds legit
 
2012-09-19 05:33:21 PM  

bdub77: The fail in this article is unbelievable and is lacking a lot of scientific information.

For example, Antarctica is a continent, unlike the Arctic. Is the antarctic sea ice at a record because it is falling/melting off of Antarctica? How deep is the ice. Is he aware that some predicted more snow would fall on Antarctica because of warmer temperatures?

I'm going to chock this one down to this person being a tool.


As has been pointed out, increases in temperature can increase cold events. Here on land, we commonly see this as areas that get a lot of snow can get more snow per year - the air is warmer and so can hold more water.

What's more, Antarctic ice build up has been happening for some time.
 
2012-09-19 06:25:59 PM  
what an ice hole
 
2012-09-19 06:26:37 PM  
So can I drive my car without the guilt of killing the planet or do I need to live with this guilt still? I'm so damn confused
 
2012-09-19 06:30:35 PM  
I love how even their attempt to defend their point is actually in favor of the other. We're looking at a global climate shift, and when one pole is getting warmer and warmer over the years, and the other is getting colder and colder...

Guess what that is? It's a climate shift!
 
2012-09-19 06:33:06 PM  
Why? Because he says so. Typically reich wing argument.

Heartland Institute?
Posting from the day room of the Kansas State Home for the Infirm and Insane, you mean.

///Large-type version for the "slow" ones out there in internet land.
//This crap is transparent, even for fark.
/Rebutting NPR? That's a rhetorical feat comparable to punching a 100-year-old lady.
 
2012-09-19 06:33:45 PM  

PacificaFitz: So can I drive my car without the guilt of killing the planet or do I need to live with this guilt still? I'm so damn confused


It's white guilt.
 
2012-09-19 06:36:43 PM  
Honest question here. I really hate to give any shred of credibility to typical Yahoo commenters, but one of them made a claim that resonated with me.

They stated that when the ice in your full glass of water melts, it doesn't overflow the glass.

Now, I realize that they're likely being fed by folksy anti-science heroes™, but it seemed like there was a bit of truth in there. I am familiar with water's unusual properties of expanding when it gets colder, heat sometimes sinking, etc... Can any of you please enlighten me on how informed they are?

/Do I sound like a scientician?
 
2012-09-19 06:36:53 PM  
Good news for polar bears?
How is more ice good news for bears?
They don't eat ice.
 
2012-09-19 06:37:51 PM  

Raging Whore Moans: Honest question here. I really hate to give any shred of credibility to typical Yahoo commenters, but one of them made a claim that resonated with me.

They stated that when the ice in your full glass of water melts, it doesn't overflow the glass.

Now, I realize that they're likely being fed by folksy anti-science heroes™, but it seemed like there was a bit of truth in there. I am familiar with water's unusual properties of expanding when it gets colder, heat sometimes sinking, etc... Can any of you please enlighten me on how informed they are?

/Do I sound like a scientician?


...and how this relates to climate change and rising sea levels. That's what I was trying to express before I missed the Preview button.
 
2012-09-19 06:40:27 PM  
Sorry, deniers, the rest of us aren't going to sit by and let you f*ck up our planet just because you think there's a slight chance that you aren't...
 
2012-09-19 06:41:23 PM  
It is a leap year, so this data isn't relevant.
 
2012-09-19 06:45:22 PM  

give me doughnuts: Caused by warmer oceans increasing precipitation over Antarctica. Increased precipitation over seas around Antarctica slightly alters the salinity the surface layers which in turn slows the halocline currents, and that keeps the currents from melting quite so much ice.


So basically, ice melts, we're right, ice forms, we're right, more hurricanes, we're right, less hurricanes, we're right, higher than average temperatures, we're right, colder than average winters, we're right, more rain in an area, we're right, less rain an area, we're right... And so on and so forth.

Except of course when its "just weather and not climate" such as "It's just weather" when we have massive snow storm in the north east and "it's climate" when we have lower than expected snowfall in a portion of Canada not even 1000 miles away. This is within months of each other by the way.

Speaking as somebody who knows quite a lot about this whole science thing, though my area is biology, this is not the sort of thing that would get you acceptance in any other field.
 
2012-09-19 06:45:31 PM  

way south: Good news for polar bears?
How is more ice good news for bears?
They don't eat ice.


They don't have to swim miles out into the ocean looking for food. The more ice there is, the more it reaches out into the water, so the more food would be nearby and easier to obtain.

The author is an idiot. I would LOVE it if there was actual proof global warming/climate change wasn't happening. These idiots think that those of us who want to protect the environment are just looking for things to biatch about. We're not. I would love to have one less thing to think about. Focus on other depletions and extinctions that are going on.
 
2012-09-19 06:47:42 PM  

Raging Whore Moans: Raging Whore Moans: Honest question here. I really hate to give any shred of credibility to typical Yahoo commenters, but one of them made a claim that resonated with me.

They stated that when the ice in your full glass of water melts, it doesn't overflow the glass.

Now, I realize that they're likely being fed by folksy anti-science heroes™, but it seemed like there was a bit of truth in there. I am familiar with water's unusual properties of expanding when it gets colder, heat sometimes sinking, etc... Can any of you please enlighten me on how informed they are?

/Do I sound like a scientician?

...and how this relates to climate change and rising sea levels. That's what I was trying to express before I missed the Preview button.


If your glass were full to just short of the edge and your ice was stacked a good 2" higher than the edge, then when it melted it would overflow.

Arctic ice below the waterline won't raise the surface when it melts. But the stuff above the water line will.

To show this to your idiot friends in real life action, fill a pitcher 3/4 with water. Draw a line on it where the "shoreline" is. Now stick your fist in the pitcher. When stuff that wasn't in the water goes into the water... the "shoreline" will go up.

Miraculous!
 
2012-09-19 06:48:03 PM  

Raging Whore Moans: Honest question here. I really hate to give any shred of credibility to typical Yahoo commenters, but one of them made a claim that resonated with me.

They stated that when the ice in your full glass of water melts, it doesn't overflow the glass.

Now, I realize that they're likely being fed by folksy anti-science heroes™, but it seemed like there was a bit of truth in there. I am familiar with water's unusual properties of expanding when it gets colder, heat sometimes sinking, etc... Can any of you please enlighten me on how informed they are?

/Do I sound like a scientician?


Lots of the ice from the last glaciation (Wisconsin glaciation) has already melted in the past 12,000 years or so. That melt has filled the Great Lakes, created the Chesapeake Bay, and flooded the Bering Sea land bridge. The ice in Antarctica sits on land, not on the sea, so that has yet to melt and run off. But anyway. Back when the glaciation was a maximum and there was a mile of ice over Albany, NY., the sea level was about 400 feet lower and what is now the submerged continental shelf off North America was the beach. So there's that. Folks who extrapolate sea level rise to drown all the major cities are just goofing on people, though lots of major cities are only a foot or so from some decent flooding. But people will move or drown, as they always have. The average rate of sea level rise for the past 12,000 years has been about 4 millimeters per year.
Humans can walk faster than that.
Only question is, will they or are they too stupid?
 
2012-09-19 06:49:43 PM  

unlikely: If your glass were full to just short of the edge and your ice was stacked a good 2" higher than the edge, then when it melted it would overflow.


But dude, the Earth cannot overflow.
 
2012-09-19 06:51:52 PM  

unlikely: To show this to your idiot friends in real life action, fill a pitcher 3/4 with water.


More like take them down to the beach and jump in. Observe the result and record the change in sea level in your work books. If you need to go to the potty, ask your teacher for a pass.
 
2012-09-19 06:55:46 PM  
It's amusing that whenever the tiniest tidbid of scienctific knowledge comes along that seems, at its surfac,e to support the denialist dogma, they'll latch on to it heartily.

Yet if scientists are nothing but conspirators, and all of their science is wrong, why is this particular scientific tidbit right? These people be crazy.
 
2012-09-19 06:58:59 PM  

way south: Good news for polar bears?
How is more ice good news for bears?
They don't eat ice.


Polar bears live in the Arctic ("North Pole"), the article is about Antarctica ("South Pole")

//if that-was-the-joke.jpg it went over my head.
 
2012-09-19 07:02:17 PM  

StopLurkListen: way south: Good news for polar bears?
How is more ice good news for bears?
They don't eat ice.

Polar bears live in the Arctic ("North Pole"), the article is about Antarctica ("South Pole")

//if that-was-the-joke.jpg it went over my head.


There's a reason there are no bears in Antarctica.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-09-19 07:03:07 PM  

highendmighty: StopLurkListen: way south: Good news for polar bears?
How is more ice good news for bears?
They don't eat ice.

Polar bears live in the Arctic ("North Pole"), the article is about Antarctica ("South Pole")

//if that-was-the-joke.jpg it went over my head.

There's a reason there are no bears in Antarctica.

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x320]


ooh. I'll probably get busted for that poster.
Sorry if it offends :(
 
2012-09-19 07:04:15 PM  

unlikely: If your glass were full to just short of the edge and your ice was stacked a good 2" higher than the edge, then when it melted it would overflow.

Arctic ice below the waterline won't raise the surface when it melts. But the stuff above the water line will.


The first part is actually a good description of what's going on, but the second part isn't. For something to float in water, it must displace a mass of water equal to or greater than its own mass. Ice is less dense than water, so the volume of water displaced is less than the volume of the ice, which is why some of the ice sticks out of the water. An ice-cube in a glass will not raise the water level in that glass, even as it melts.

However, if you were to stack ice up over the top of the glass, it would. That's because not all of that ice is floating- much of it is supported by the sides of the glass. In the case of oceans, we're talking about ice that isn't floating in the oceans- ice on land, ice supported by land.
 
2012-09-19 07:05:04 PM  
the sky is falling, the sky is falling... (yawn)
 
2012-09-19 07:07:02 PM  

nytmare: Yet if scientists are nothing but conspirators, and all of their science is wrong, why is this particular scientific tidbit right? These people be crazy.


Climate change is to science as closeted homosexuality is to politics.
For some, it's reality; for others, an unthinkable shame.
 
2012-09-19 07:15:22 PM  
People who deny anthropogenic climate change are ignorant of science, have almost certainly never taken a college-level Physics or Chemistry class and, more than likely, are Christian and/or have an ulterior motive (e.g. getting paid cash money from fossil fuel interests).

Please don't let scientifically ignorant people or people affiliated with the Heartland Institute influence your opinions. Take some time, learn the science behind climate research, perhaps visit your local community college and talk with instructors teaching Physics, Chemistry, Climatology, Meteorology, etc. You'll find that there is an amazing consensus that climate change is real and that we're causing it. Hell, you will probably meet a teacher whose graduate work involved a contribution to climate science.
 
2012-09-19 07:17:28 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Climate change is to science as closeted homosexuality is to politics.


Bra-vo.
Oh that will leave a mark.
Oh yeah, you tol' 'em.
You go, you.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-09-19 07:17:46 PM  
alittlebitleft.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-09-19 07:21:54 PM  

IntertubeUser: People who deny anthropogenic climate change are ignorant of science, have almost certainly never taken a college-level Physics or Chemistry class and, more than likely, are Christian and/or have an ulterior motive (e.g. getting paid cash money from fossil fuel interests).


What about Muslims?
How do they feel about this issue (since you dragged religion into it)?
Are they outraged? Nonplussed? Blasé?
A quarter of the Earth's population surely have a say in this "controversy."

/Ignorance is a poverty thing, not a religious thing, though it could be argued that religion is a mental illness, but we won't go there.
//This whole thing is ultimately about religion and whether humans actually control anything or not; whether a greater God is driving the bus or are we humans driving the bus. A sense of control is important.
 
2012-09-19 07:22:56 PM  
TFA's premise is contradicted by its own links, something the author shares in common with a lot of deniers in these threads. Here's the linked graph showing the change in Antarctic sea ice compared to the long-term average:

arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu

If you read this as saying "2012 has set a new high," then it just may be the right week to stop sniffing glue.
 
2012-09-19 07:25:06 PM  

IntertubeUser: You'll find that there is an amazing consensus that climate change is real and that we're causing it. Hell, you will probably meet a teacher whose graduate work involved a contribution to climate science.


Of course it's real.
Of course we're causing it AND of course we are not causing it.
There are natural causes AND man-made ones.

/See how work it?
//Stop being so bipolar and argumentative. You'll never get more money that way.
 
2012-09-19 07:28:15 PM  
You guys still really don't even understand what it is do you?

Record-High Antarctic Sea Ice Levels Don't Disprove Global Warming

"Antarctic sea ice hasn't seen these big reductions we've seen in the Arctic. This is not a surprise to us," said climate scientist Mark Serreze, director of the NSIDC. "Some of the skeptics say 'Well, everything is OK because the big changes in the Arctic are essentially balanced by what's happening in the Antarctic.' This is simply not true." [Former Global Warming Skeptic Makes a 'Total Turnaround']

Projections made from climate models all predict that global warming should impact Arctic sea ice first and most intensely, Serreze said. "We have known for many years that as the Earth started to warm up, the effects would be seen first in the Arctic and not the Antarctic. The physical geography of the two hemispheres is very different. Largely as a result of that, they behave very differently."


"OMG, it matches the GW prediction of scientist, that proves them wrong?" - is the argument you are making.

Global warming or climate change has NEVER said the temperature all over the world would always increase. It has always stated that some areas will be the same or in fact get colder.

Just because you've never understood it doesn't make it wrong.
 
2012-09-19 07:30:09 PM  
Global warming is about the total effect on the entire globe over a period of time not just one are for a small for a little while:

The extent of Arctic sea ice at its summertime low point has dropped 40 percent in the past three decades. The idea that a tiny Antarctic ice expansion makes up for this - that heat is merely shifting from the the Southern Hemisphere to the Northern and therefore global warming must not be happening - is "just nonsense," Serreze said.
 
2012-09-19 07:33:12 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: unlikely: If your glass were full to just short of the edge and your ice was stacked a good 2" higher than the edge, then when it melted it would overflow.

But dude, the Earth cannot overflow.


So there is no Chesapeake Bay; it's just another coastal plain with rivers crossing it.
 
2012-09-19 07:33:15 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: There are natural causes AND man-made ones.


Thank you.

It's like people forget that the climate has changed in the past, long before the industrial revolution. The question isn't what's best for the environment, it's about what's best for humanity. The "it's all our fault" crowd makes me feel like the environment would be better off without humans. So, let it burn, let it burn.
 
2012-09-19 07:36:04 PM  
All I need to know about the so-called global warming, I learned on the TV.

mediamatters.org 

If the earth was warming, there wouldn't be snow, ya idjits! It would melt as soon as it landed because the ground (part of the Earth-duh!) is supposedly warmer.
 
2012-09-19 07:38:01 PM  

Corvus: You guys still really don't even understand what it is do you?

Record-High Antarctic Sea Ice Levels Don't Disprove Global Warming

"Antarctic sea ice hasn't seen these big reductions we've seen in the Arctic. This is not a surprise to us," said climate scientist Mark Serreze, director of the NSIDC. "Some of the skeptics say 'Well, everything is OK because the big changes in the Arctic are essentially balanced by what's happening in the Antarctic.' This is simply not true." [Former Global Warming Skeptic Makes a 'Total Turnaround']

Projections made from climate models all predict that global warming should impact Arctic sea ice first and most intensely, Serreze said. "We have known for many years that as the Earth started to warm up, the effects would be seen first in the Arctic and not the Antarctic. The physical geography of the two hemispheres is very different. Largely as a result of that, they behave very differently."

"OMG, it matches the GW prediction of scientist, that proves them wrong?" - is the argument you are making.

Global warming or climate change has NEVER said the temperature all over the world would always increase. It has always stated that some areas will be the same or in fact get colder.

Just because you've never understood it doesn't make it wrong.


You could type all of that in absolute earnestness or you can just say that more heat into a system equals more turbulence, which is felt by us peevish tiny humans as local temperature variations.
 
2012-09-19 07:40:24 PM  

Scruffinator: HotIgneous Intruder: There are natural causes AND man-made ones.

Thank you.

It's like people forget that the climate has changed in the past, long before the industrial revolution. The question isn't what's best for the environment, it's about what's best for humanity. The "it's all our fault" crowd makes me feel like the environment would be better off without humans. So, let it burn, let it burn.


Hat tip to you, too.
Indeed, humans will get shaken off eventually.
Meanwhile, our job is to adapt, not take measures that starve each other.

/Yay, globalists, you stupid farks.
 
2012-09-19 07:41:34 PM  
imageshack.us
 
2012-09-19 07:44:31 PM  
I'm sure it's been covered, but has anyone checked the Arctic ice levels? Or do they not matter in the Northern Hemisphere's summer months?
 
2012-09-19 07:44:44 PM  
It's like people forget that there have global warming threads long before this one and everything has already been said and no one's gonna change anyone's mind.

/still fun to lurk and watch the derp
 
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