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(Rochester Democrat and Chronicle)   "Turner is alleged to have attempted to pay his own taxes in 2008 with a $300 million bond and assisted others in filing fake bonds the same year purporting to be worth up to $100 billion." SOVEREIGN CITIZEN   (democratandchronicle.com) divider line 93
    More: Stupid, sovereign citizens, financial instruments, Southern Poverty Law Center, West Memphis, fake bonds, independents  
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7889 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Sep 2012 at 3:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-19 02:31:58 AM
i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-09-19 02:43:22 AM
pictat.com 

/hat tip: Smoky Dragon Dish
 
2012-09-19 03:09:28 AM
blog.myscoutstuff.org

This flag has gold fringe, therefore rules don't apply to me.
 
2012-09-19 03:11:43 AM
Man overboard!
 
2012-09-19 03:20:27 AM
fark these people.

One thing you'll find in common with most soverign citizens is that they are all the LaMOE (Last Man on Earth) types who believe that because they found some kind of supposed hidden code, or some type of magical pseudolegal language, that they are above the laws of the United States. They often manage to mix this with Christian Endtime Philosophies, and an unhealthy dose of cult mentality and persecution complex - "Everyone not a Soverign Citizen is too blind to the truth to be free."

This is raw video footage of what happens when "Soverign Citizen" leaders are confronted for something as simple as an expired tag. (NSFW: contains raw footage of two police officers being murdered.)

Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.

The only thing that stopped them was a chance meeting of their vehicle with the Chief of Police (the father of one of the murdered officers) and the Assistant Chief. (NSFW: Video ends with bodies) The Kanes immediately opened fire on the two, critically wounding both. They would have executed them as well, had it not been for the invervention of one brave as hell game warden.

This crazy motherfarker got on a straightaway, and gunned his truck, while firing his M4 Rifle through windshield into the passenger compartment of the minivan the kanes were in. When he impacted the car, he continued firing into the vehicle with his service pistol as he moved back.

Two officers lost their lives. Another officer had his career ruined by debilitating abdominal injuries which he barely survived.

And the kicker?

The FBI had been watching the Kanes for some time on suspicion they would target law enforcement. They never notified the local department.
 
2012-09-19 03:20:45 AM
www.capitolhillblue.com

/oblig
 
2012-09-19 03:28:38 AM
What is it with the name Turner and anti-government craziness?
 
2012-09-19 03:29:31 AM

BronyMedic: Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.


Well, according to the Truthers that' just what they WANT you to believe.
 
2012-09-19 03:34:13 AM

BronyMedic: fark these people.

One thing you'll find in common with most soverign citizens is that they are all the LaMOE (Last Man on Earth) types who believe that because they found some kind of supposed hidden code, or some type of magical pseudolegal language, that they are above the laws of the United States. They often manage to mix this with Christian Endtime Philosophies, and an unhealthy dose of cult mentality and persecution complex - "Everyone not a Soverign Citizen is too blind to the truth to be free."

This is raw video footage of what happens when "Soverign Citizen" leaders are confronted for something as simple as an expired tag. (NSFW: contains raw footage of two police officers being murdered.)

Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.

The only thing that stopped them was a chance meeting of their vehicle with the Chief of Police (the father of one of the murdered officers) and the Assistant Chief. (NSFW: Video ends with bodies) The Kanes immediately opened fire on the two, critically wounding both. They would have executed them as well, had it not been for the invervention of one brave as hell game warden.

This crazy motherfarker got on a straightaway, and gunned his truck, while firing his M4 Rifle through windshield into the passenger compartment of the minivan the kanes were in. When he impacted the car, he continued firing into the vehicle with his service pistol as he moved back.

Two officers lost their lives. Another officer had his career ruined by debilitating abdominal injuries which he barely survived.

And the kicker?

The FBI had been watching the Kanes for some time on suspicion they would target law enforcement. They never notified the local department.


And then they come on to Fark and talk about how both sides are bad, and we all just don't get it and we sheeple need to wake up! Then maybe Ron Paul will be our savior. Oh yah and the government is trying to take their guns, but did you know they can disarm/shoot any and everyone under any circumstances without getting shot themselves because they are just that good and train in combat every day during their own time. Also, everyone should be training to use guns every day in preparation for the impending revolution that's coming when they uprise any day now...

/Okay, maybe I'm mixing them up with certain farkers, but they seem like the same type of people to me.
 
2012-09-19 03:38:31 AM
"An indictment issued in Alabama also alleges that James "Timothy" Turner of Dale County, Ala., conducted seminars across the country in which he taught students how to file retaliatory liens against the property of government officials and provided instruction on creating fake financial instruments to pay their tax bills."

"In 2009, according to court documents, Turner allegedly traveled the country, from Miami, Baltimore and New York to Seattle and Portland, Ore., conducting tax seminars for followers who paid up to $150 to attend."

What would this James Turner douchebag have done if, following his lead, one of his followers had attempted to "pay" for one of his tax seminars with a fake financial instrument?
 
2012-09-19 03:43:14 AM

ZipSplat: BronyMedic: Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.

Well, according to the Truthers that' just what they WANT you to believe.


I'm sure they're trying to invoke a West Memphis 3 vibe, but they've got video evidence on these morons than they ever had on the WM3.
 
2012-09-19 03:47:29 AM
If there's one thing that pisses me off, it's these Sovereign Citizen and FMOTL farking idiots. We have loonies like this in Australia too.
 
2012-09-19 03:47:46 AM
These people are largely nutcases, for sure, but one has to wonder if there's a valid point somewhere in there.

I mean, nobody has any rights any more; we all pretty much act on permissions that can be (and are) revoked at will. Even if you "own" property, you still have to pay taxes on it, or the state takes it away. Taxes are mandatory. Education is compulsory. You need a permit or a license to do anything. Argue with any of this, and you're accused of breaking some 'social contract' - that isn't written down, nor does anyone sign - and labeled a lunatic.

We only get one chance to live, and we're all pretty much born into bondage - maybe not as much as others, but still we enter the world and live our lives completely in debt. Doesn't quite seem right to me.
 
2012-09-19 03:49:45 AM
This guy needs to attend a nice shotgun tasting.
 
2012-09-19 03:53:30 AM
There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States. Sovereign Citizen isn't one of them. However, Denizen is, and is the status most closely resembling what "sovereign citizens" claim. The problem is that you can't be both a citizen AND a denizen. In other words, if you have a birth certificate and you want the benefits of citizenship, you also have to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship. It's a contract. Also, if you're a taxpayer as defined in title 42 of the USC, file your damn taxes.
 
2012-09-19 03:54:09 AM

Lernaeus: I mean, nobody has any rights any more; we all pretty much act on permissions that can be (and are) revoked at will. Even if you "own" property, you still have to pay taxes on it, or the state takes it away. Taxes are mandatory. Education is compulsory. You need a permit or a license to do anything. Argue with any of this, and you're accused of breaking some 'social contract' - that isn't written down, nor does anyone sign - and labeled a lunatic.


...you can move. The fallacy here is assuming that having no rules means that the people are emancipated. That is not the case. There is a cost associated with not having a mandatory education system, or not having an income tax system. It's easy, from within the comfortable system that these things have brought us, to biatch and whine about the fact that to benefit from it you have to participate in it. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay because of the selfish fantasies of puritanical libertarians.
 
2012-09-19 04:05:06 AM

ZipSplat: Lernaeus: I mean, nobody has any rights any more; we all pretty much act on permissions that can be (and are) revoked at will. Even if you "own" property, you still have to pay taxes on it, or the state takes it away. Taxes are mandatory. Education is compulsory. You need a permit or a license to do anything. Argue with any of this, and you're accused of breaking some 'social contract' - that isn't written down, nor does anyone sign - and labeled a lunatic.

...you can move. The fallacy here is assuming that having no rules means that the people are emancipated. That is not the case. There is a cost associated with not having a mandatory education system, or not having an income tax system. It's easy, from within the comfortable system that these things have brought us, to biatch and whine about the fact that to benefit from it you have to participate in it. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay because of the selfish fantasies of puritanical libertarians.


The problem is when the system runs out of control and starts screwing the people it was built to help. Anyone who suggests government shouldn't have a role is a fool, just as much as anyone who suggests that government should control everything. We have a real crisis today though: there is a very real group of people who don't give a damn about anything so long as they get what they want, and they're winning the battle.

And if you're looking for someone to blame, you need only look into a mirror. That goes for everyone.

/citizens must keep their government under control
//irresponsible citizens create irresponsible politicians which create an irresponsible government
///the real "trickle down"
 
2012-09-19 04:07:51 AM
FTFA:
"The 56-year-old Alabama man, known as the president of the "Republic for the united States of America,'' has been a leader in the disjointed anti-government movement that has sparked growing concern among federal law enforcement officials in the past four years."

Hmmm.... I wonder if there were any historically significant events that happened four years ago...
 
2012-09-19 04:18:58 AM
The Turner case, Potok said, is a "classic example of paper terrorism'' employed by the movement to defraud the government.

I thought paper terrorism was when you flew a paper airplane into the side of a government building.
 
2012-09-19 04:22:06 AM

autopsybeverage: The Turner case, Potok said, is a "classic example of paper terrorism'' employed by the movement to defraud the government.

I thought paper terrorism was when you flew a paper airplane into the side of a government building.


No, it's when you quote papers like the Constitution.
 
2012-09-19 04:23:09 AM

Ruiizu: Anyone who suggests government shouldn't have a role is a fool, just as much as anyone who suggests that government should control everything.


Everything? Either you don't know what that means or you're just making up that class of people.

Lernaeus: I mean, nobody has any rights any more; we all pretty much act on permissions that can be (and are) revoked at will. Even if you "own" property, you still have to pay taxes on it, or the state takes it away. Taxes are mandatory. Education is compulsory. You need a permit or a license to do anything. Argue with any of this, and you're accused of breaking some 'social contract' - that isn't written down, nor does anyone sign - and labeled a lunatic.


As Zipsplat was saying, total anarchy doesn't mean freedom. Instead of the government telling you what to do it's a mean sonofabiatch with a gun who wants your stuff. A government can give you, say, property rights for a reason beyond having the biggest stick. Everyone now has the freedom to own property not just the strongest or most violent among us.
 
2012-09-19 04:30:52 AM

Baryogenesis:
As Zipsplat was saying, total anarchy doesn't mean freedom. Instead of the government telling you what to do it's a mean sonofabiatch with a gun who wants your stuff. A government can give you, say, property rights for a reason beyond having the biggest stick. Everyone now has the freedom to own property not just the strongest or most violent among us.


Good practical way to put it. People can be controlled - they're either going to be controlled by a tyrant, or the average of the sum of their opinions.

autopsybeverage: The Turner case, Potok said, is a "classic example of paper terrorism'' employed by the movement to defraud the government.

I thought paper terrorism was when you flew a paper airplane into the side of a government building.


Potok tends to be a little strong in his statements, he has his own agenda. I like Chip Berlet better, he seems to observe and report on wingnuts and conspiracy theorists as if he's watching gorillas in the wild.
 
2012-09-19 04:55:25 AM
Cosmo and Wanda are disapoint
 
2012-09-19 07:11:07 AM

BronyMedic: fark these people.

One thing you'll find in common with most soverign citizens is that they are all the LaMOE (Last Man on Earth) types who believe that because they found some kind of supposed hidden code, or some type of magical pseudolegal language, that they are above the laws of the United States. They often manage to mix this with Christian Endtime Philosophies, and an unhealthy dose of cult mentality and persecution complex - "Everyone not a Soverign Citizen is too blind to the truth to be free."

This is raw video footage of what happens when "Soverign Citizen" leaders are confronted for something as simple as an expired tag. (NSFW: contains raw footage of two police officers being murdered.)

Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.

The only thing that stopped them was a chance meeting of their vehicle with the Chief of Police (the father of one of the murdered officers) and the Assistant Chief. (NSFW: Video ends with bodies) The Kanes immediately opened fire on the two, critically wounding both. They would have executed them as well, had it not been for the invervention of one brave as hell game warden.

This crazy motherfarker got on a straightaway, and gunned his truck, while firing his M4 Rifle through windshield into the passenger compartment of the minivan the kanes were in. When he impacted the car, he continued firing into the vehicle with his service pistol as he moved back.

Two officers lost their lives. Another officer had his career ruined by debilitating abdominal injuries which he barely survived.

And the kicker?

The FBI had been watching the Kanes for some time on suspicion they would target law enforcement. They never notified the local department.

CSB/
20 years ago I knew an "untaxer" who for $1500 would 'legally' remove you from the system, SSN and all. (I hung on to MY money). He was non-violent, more of a Kafkaesque H&R Block. His argument was that only residents of D.C. and Fed. employees faced any liability to the IRS, because only THEY were "citizens" under the law, the rest of us being "Nationals" and therefore potentially immune from fed. taxes. An accountant interviewed on the local news said that, while each step of his program was legal in itself, its intent was clearly tax evasion, and intent is the focus of the law.
The Feds raided him after a couple of years, but he got his hunting rifles and computers back (no doubt after cloning his HDD). He continued signing
up hundreds of Patriots suckers, most of whom owed the IRS a great deal more than $1500. I have trouble understanding the "building a case" approach, although I understand that prosecutors want a max sentence. But when months turn into years, the conspiracy widens and deepens, and, based on the recent news, radicallizes. Also, new potential leaders emerge, who may escape sweeps or decapitations. If you've got the evidence, arrest 'em and be content with mandatory minimums (another rant for another day.)
 
2012-09-19 07:23:55 AM

Donn C. Drummond in Disguise: its intent was clearly tax evasion, and intent is the focus of the law.


It's perfectly legal to avoid behavior that triggers taxation. That isn't the same thing as tax evasion. Tax evasion is engaging in activity that is taxable but not paying taxes. Tax avoidance is avoiding taxable income and other behavior that causes you to be a taxpayer. Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal.
 
2012-09-19 07:49:55 AM
I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.
 
2012-09-19 07:56:32 AM

Do you know the way to Mordor: "An indictment issued in Alabama also alleges that James "Timothy" Turner of Dale County, Ala., conducted seminars across the country in which he taught students how to file retaliatory liens against the property of government officials and provided instruction on creating fake financial instruments to pay their tax bills."

"In 2009, according to court documents, Turner allegedly traveled the country, from Miami, Baltimore and New York to Seattle and Portland, Ore., conducting tax seminars for followers who paid up to $150 to attend."

What would this James Turner douchebag have done if, following his lead, one of his followers had attempted to "pay" for one of his tax seminars with a fake financial instrument?


He is not stupid clearly he asked for US currency.
 
2012-09-19 07:59:54 AM

BronyMedic: fark these people.

One thing you'll find in common with most soverign citizens is that they are all the LaMOE (Last Man on Earth) types who believe that because they found some kind of supposed hidden code, or some type of magical pseudolegal language, that they are above the laws of the United States. They often manage to mix this with Christian Endtime Philosophies, and an unhealthy dose of cult mentality and persecution complex - "Everyone not a Soverign Citizen is too blind to the truth to be free."

This is raw video footage of what happens when "Soverign Citizen" leaders are confronted for something as simple as an expired tag. (NSFW: contains raw footage of two police officers being murdered.)

Meet Jerry Kane, and his son Joesph - the cheeky fellow with the AK-47. These two bastards were the perpetrators of the 2010 West Memphis ambush which killed two police officers. They then drove to the local Walmart with the intentions of continuing their "war on the Government" by shooting as many people as possible.

The only thing that stopped them was a chance meeting of their vehicle with the Chief of Police (the father of one of the murdered officers) and the Assistant Chief. (NSFW: Video ends with bodies) The Kanes immediately opened fire on the two, critically wounding both. They would have executed them as well, had it not been for the invervention of one brave as hell game warden.

This crazy motherfarker got on a straightaway, and gunned his truck, while firing his M4 Rifle through windshield into the passenger compartment of the minivan the kanes were in. When he impacted the car, he continued firing into the vehicle with his service pistol as he moved back.

Two officers lost their lives. Another officer had his career ruined by debilitating abdominal injuries which he barely survived.

And the kicker?

The FBI had been watching the Kanes for some time on suspicion they would target law enforcement. They never notified the local department.


Group of over 100,000 people 2 killers
Any city over 60,00 has 8 per year at least.
This guys were farkin messed up but stats don't favor regular society over the group these two sickos aligned themselves with.
 
2012-09-19 08:04:02 AM

spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.


Did they get a publicly funded education? Do they drive on public roads? Do they take advantage of the fact that everyone around them is educated. Do they have police protection and the advantages of an orderly society? ? If they're hurt do they go to a hospital? Are they driving cars that are safe because of government regulations?

If you really want to not pay taxes and live off the grid there are ways to do that, these people want all the advantages of modern civil society but don't want to follow the rules or pay for it.
 
2012-09-19 08:08:08 AM
I wonder how many of these folks are registered to vote in a system they don't endorse.
 
2012-09-19 08:12:30 AM

Voiceofreason01: spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.

Did they get a publicly funded education? Do they drive on public roads? Do they take advantage of the fact that everyone around them is educated. Do they have police protection and the advantages of an orderly society? ? If they're hurt do they go to a hospital? Are they driving cars that are safe because of government regulations?

If you really want to not pay taxes and live off the grid there are ways to do that, these people want all the advantages of modern civil society but don't want to follow the rules or pay for it.


Do they want it or was it forced on them ? I did already state that.
 
2012-09-19 08:19:20 AM

Voiceofreason01: spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.

Did they get a publicly funded education? Do they drive on public roads? Do they take advantage of the fact that everyone around them is educated. Do they have police protection and the advantages of an orderly society? ? If they're hurt do they go to a hospital? Are they driving cars that are safe because of government regulations?

If you really want to not pay taxes and live off the grid there are ways to do that, these people want all the advantages of modern civil society but don't want to follow the rules or pay for it.


All the points you are making are great and I understand, but why should they live off the grid ?

Go live in the mountains because you want to live life the way you want.
 
2012-09-19 08:19:27 AM
I would love, for once, love to meet an educated SC that could accurately defend his position. The ones that I come in contact with spout pre-programmed rhetoric.

Usually they shrug, present a valid drivers license and registration, get their summons and are on their way. Every so often there is that guy that just wants to make everyone's day shiatty and will try and argue for hours.
 
2012-09-19 08:20:06 AM

spentshells:
They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.


If you want to live in a USA without the benefits of taxes, permits, licenses, elected officials, and laws, go move to Somalia. Or, if you stay here, stop using any and all form of public roads, start paying artificially higher gas prices, don't fly airplanes or use public transportation, don't use the internet or watch television, go get your water from the local river, grow your own food (and it can't be food bought from a grocery store). Don't buy any guns or ammo, either. In fact, I'm not sure there's anything you CAN buy or use that has been improved or kept safe by taxes, licenses, fees, and regulations that come from them.

You live in the real world. Things happened before you did. You do not get to say "well I wasn't around then" and disobey the law; what you CAN do is challenge the law in court, elect new officials, and protest peacefully.
 
2012-09-19 08:30:06 AM

spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.


Well, they tend to like using the publicly funded court system to file liens against agent of the mean old government that made them use the agree to use the publicly funded court system.

As the trope goes, if you don't like government, Somolia, or any other failed state, is nice this time of year.
 
2012-09-19 08:30:54 AM

spentshells: Voiceofreason01: spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.

Did they get a publicly funded education? Do they drive on public roads? Do they take advantage of the fact that everyone around them is educated. Do they have police protection and the advantages of an orderly society? ? If they're hurt do they go to a hospital? Are they driving cars that are safe because of government regulations?

If you really want to not pay taxes and live off the grid there are ways to do that, these people want all the advantages of modern civil society but don't want to follow the rules or pay for it.

Do they want it or was it forced on them ? I did already state that.


I hear Somalia's nice this time of year. You should live there, where you'll be free of government interference.
 
2012-09-19 08:31:05 AM

Baryogenesis: As Zipsplat was saying, total anarchy doesn't mean freedom. Instead of the government telling you what to do it's a mean sonofabiatch with a gun who wants your stuff. A government can give you, say, property rights for a reason beyond having the biggest stick. Everyone now has the freedom to own property not just the strongest or most violent

FTFY; historically in America, being white was a tacit requirement to be a property owner.

Even if we haven't eradicated racist attitudes, we've at least come a long way in removing their overt
enshrinement in laws.

 
2012-09-19 08:35:18 AM

spentshells: Do they want it or was it forced on them ? I did already state that.


They can live off the grid if they want and it's not even hard to avoid paying income tax. But if you want to come play with the rest of us you need to play by the rules. Otherwise you're vermin.
 
2012-09-19 08:41:38 AM
So a couple of years ago the missus was processing job applications for her company, and she came across one where the guy wrote "without prejudice" next to the part that says "I have answered these questions truthfully" yadda yadda yadda. Intrigued and a little concerned, she called the attorney and asked him what it meant. He chuckled and said "That's legalese for 'I am a nutcase.'"
 
2012-09-19 08:43:21 AM

spentshells: I find it really interesting how they are deemed an extremest group.
A bunch of people who reject laws they had no choice in making or overturning
So they can elect someone and make changes. Why should they ? Who says they have/want to
they do not accept the system forced on them and who is to blame them ?

They don't want to pay taxes why should they ? If they do not want the related social services of any kind
or require any permits or license of any kind to do very basic things which should not be regulated by anyone or anything that they as person don't have a say in.

Who made these people my boss ? Who allowed them to tell me what I can do or say ? Not me so why should I obey these rules ?

From what I understand about "some" of these people is true freedom and living under common law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Read here a bit.


Yes there are some religious nuts involved in this but it's not like they do not litter the governments all over the world in ever single country
Makes sense to me.


Dear knave; if you don't like the rules of our society, get out of our country or we'll shoot you in the face.
 
2012-09-19 09:00:47 AM

untaken_name: Donn C. Drummond in Disguise: its intent was clearly tax evasion, and intent is the focus of the law.

It's perfectly legal to avoid behavior that triggers taxation. That isn't the same thing as tax evasion. Tax evasion is engaging in activity that is taxable but not paying taxes. Tax avoidance is avoiding taxable income and other behavior that causes you to be a taxpayer. Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal.



Tax avoidance is when you have a good lawyer. Tax evasion is when you have a bad lawyer.
 
2012-09-19 09:15:59 AM

untaken_name: There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States. Sovereign Citizen isn't one of them. However, Denizen is, and is the status most closely resembling what "sovereign citizens" claim. The problem is that you can't be both a citizen AND a denizen. In other words, if you have a birth certificate and you want the benefits of citizenship, you also have to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship. It's a contract. Also, if you're a taxpayer as defined in title 42 of the USC, file your damn taxes.


www.freeimagehosting.net
 
2012-09-19 09:19:06 AM

untaken_name: There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States. Sovereign Citizen isn't one of them. However, Denizen is, and is the status most closely resembling what "sovereign citizens" claim. The problem is that you can't be both a citizen AND a denizen. In other words, if you have a birth certificate and you want the benefits of citizenship, you also have to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship. It's a contract. Also, if you're a taxpayer as defined in title 42 of the USC, file your damn taxes.


Where does 'meat popsicle' fall into the USC?
 
2012-09-19 09:19:34 AM

untaken_name: There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States. Sovereign Citizen isn't one of them. However, Denizen is, and is the status most closely resembling what "sovereign citizens" claim. The problem is that you can't be both a citizen AND a denizen. In other words, if you have a birth certificate and you want the benefits of citizenship, you also have to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship. It's a contract. Also, if you're a taxpayer as defined in title 42 of the USC, file your damn taxes.


You're also either a Shark or a Jet, biut that's a whole different Story.
 
2012-09-19 09:20:10 AM

wingnut396: Where does 'meat popsicle' fall into the USC?


Running back
 
2012-09-19 09:28:41 AM
I just had a conversation with a friend who works dispatch one county over from this and she told me that whenever someone claims soverign citizen, they must immediately call for backup. I'm just glad the guy wasn't violent. I work at Fort Rucker IN Dale county, and if he was violent crazy instead of greedy crazy, he could've found a way to sneak weapons on post and shot the place up. Glad they stopped him when they did.
 
2012-09-19 09:31:17 AM

cleveoh: untaken_name: There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States. Sovereign Citizen isn't one of them. However, Denizen is, and is the status most closely resembling what "sovereign citizens" claim. The problem is that you can't be both a citizen AND a denizen. In other words, if you have a birth certificate and you want the benefits of citizenship, you also have to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship. It's a contract. Also, if you're a taxpayer as defined in title 42 of the USC, file your damn taxes.

You're also either a Shark or a Jet, biut that's a whole different Story.


When you're a Jet, you're Jet all the way. From you're first cigarette, till your last dyin' day.
 
2012-09-19 09:32:47 AM

untaken_name: There are 24 legally-recognized classes of person in the United States


Citation Please
 
2012-09-19 09:42:34 AM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: I would love, for once, love to meet an educated SC that could accurately defend his position. The ones that I come in contact with spout pre-programmed rhetoric.

Usually they shrug, present a valid drivers license and registration, get their summons and are on their way. Every so often there is that guy that just wants to make everyone's day shiatty and will try and argue for hours.


I doubt you'd ever see one; after all, they expect to go into a courtroom, utter some incantation, and have the judge say "You know, you're right. We *don't* have the authority to enforce laws or create taxes. Hey, everyone, go home, we're shutting down the government, it was fun while it lasted."
 
2012-09-19 09:44:13 AM

TheUltimateLink: I just had a conversation with a friend who works dispatch one county over from this and she told me that whenever someone claims soverign citizen, they must immediately call for backup.


And the soverign citizen probably wonders why he's being treated with such suspicion by the police, decides that it's another manifestation of the authoritarian state trying to opress him, and doubles down on his derp fantasy. And the circle of life continues.
 
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