OnlyM3: atomicmask

...Please see Turkey, a secular muslim state. Or, perhaps Malaysia or Indonesia...
Ok
_____________
Turkey

ISTANBUL - A woman in the studio audience stands up and, with the spotlight highlighting her covered head, announces to the crowd that her husband abuses her but that she doesn't know how to react and still be a good Muslim.
...
The host of this popular Turkish TV show, "Islam in Our Life," Professor Faruk Beser, is - from his trimmed mustache to his tailored suit - the image of a modern, successful Turkish man. But as he approaches the woman, his answer is far from progressive.

Looking her in the eye, Beser urges the woman to "carry this pain within you and keep living with your husband,"

Wow, that sounds just like the Baltimore judge who refused to grant a restraining order for a woman who was being beaten by her husband because he questioned her motives.

--and--
On July 2, 1993, after Friday prayers in the local Sunni mosques, a mob of at least 15,000 Islamic fundamentalists spent eight hours besieging a cultural festival that had mainly attracted members of the Alevi community,

Wow, that sounds just like the protests held at the "Ground Zero Mosque" or the EDL, or the protest in California where protestors called Muslims terrorists and told them to go home.

--and--
In 1923 when the creation of Turkish Republic was proclaimed, at that time there were 200,000 Jews living on its territory, including 100,000 in Istanbul alone... the subsequent pogroms and persecution triggered a mass Jewish emigration, that reduced the Jewish community by 10 times
..In the 1970s - 1980s anti-Semitic sentiments in Turkey have increased. Anti-Jewish thesises were included even in the programs of some political parties....

...March 2005 the attention of Western media towards Turkey has been drawn due to the fact that the book of Adolf Hitler "Mein Kampf" (Kavgam), as reported by the network of D&R, for the first two months of 2005 has taken the 4th place as the best-selling book in Turkey....

No non-Muslim has ever persecuted Jews. Regarding Mein Kampf, it appears that between 50 - 100K books were sold in early 2005 at a time when sales of the book were soaring across Europe. There are nearly 80 million people in Turkey so we're talking about at worst 1/10th of 1% of the population.

--and--
A June 2008 report by Turkey's Human Rights Directorate says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honour killing every week
--and--
Government figures released in February suggest murders of women increased 14-fold in seven years, from 66 in 2002, to 953 in the first seven months of 2009. In the past seven months, ...

And what are the figures for domestic violence deaths in the US?

Remember, kids, if you can find a handful of examples of despicable behavior by Muslims it means that all Muslims are backwards savages.

meatball sub sammiches. #pastafarianrage

Stile4aly: OnlyM3: atomicmask

...Please see Turkey, a secular muslim state. Or, perhaps Malaysia or Indonesia...
Ok
_____________
Turkey

ISTANBUL - A woman in the studio audience stands up and, with the spotlight highlighting her covered head, announces to the crowd that her husband abuses her but that she doesn't know how to react and still be a good Muslim.
...
The host of this popular Turkish TV show, "Islam in Our Life," Professor Faruk Beser, is - from his trimmed mustache to his tailored suit - the image of a modern, successful Turkish man. But as he approaches the woman, his answer is far from progressive.

Looking her in the eye, Beser urges the woman to "carry this pain within you and keep living with your husband,"

Wow, that sounds just like the Baltimore judge who refused to grant a restraining order for a woman who was being beaten by her husband because he questioned her motives.

--and--
On July 2, 1993, after Friday prayers in the local Sunni mosques, a mob of at least 15,000 Islamic fundamentalists spent eight hours besieging a cultural festival that had mainly attracted members of the Alevi community,

Wow, that sounds just like the protests held at the "Ground Zero Mosque" or the EDL, or the protest in California where protestors called Muslims terrorists and told them to go home.

--and--
In 1923 when the creation of Turkish Republic was proclaimed, at that time there were 200,000 Jews living on its territory, including 100,000 in Istanbul alone... the subsequent pogroms and persecution triggered a mass Jewish emigration, that reduced the Jewish community by 10 times
..In the 1970s - 1980s anti-Semitic sentiments in Turkey have increased. Anti-Jewish thesises were included even in the programs of some political parties....

...March 2005 the attention of Western media towards Turkey has been drawn due to the fact that the book of Adolf Hitler "Mein Kampf" (Kavgam), as reported by the network of D&R, for the first two months of 2005 has taken the 4th place ...

Remember kids, if someone finds evidence that your magical skewed view of muslims are wrong, and that the most "cultured" of muslim societies is still back assward and violent, you only need to divert the attention to christians or the united states! Don't rethink your position, change the subject!

You also forget the part that our government punishes individuals for domestic violence in the united states, in islamic nations the government looks the other way or condones it, because islam says a married woman is property and no such thing as rape exists between a husband a wife.

atomicmask: The sad thing is, these ARE the best examples of westernized and modern muslim nations. If people notice, when muslims immigrate they do not try to update themselves, they just try to tear down and create as equal of shiat hole as where ever they just left.

Yes, I know. I live in constant fear of my Somali Muslim neighbors. Why, just last week they brought over a plate of food for me, and they were full of smiles and kind words. I'm sure they're just lulling me into a false sense of security before coming over to behead me one night. Or the Muslim guy around the corner who I always see helping his neighbor fix up his car. He's probably planting bombs to use it in a suicide run.

I love being a cowboy! #homeontherange
I love being a frying pan! #homeontherange
Nobody wants to rhyme with me. #orange
I hate my buggy! #carraige
Who's driving the boat? I can't tell from down here. #steerage
Mad cow. #steerage
I hate my equals. #peerage

buckler: atomicmask: The sad thing is, these ARE the best examples of westernized and modern muslim nations. If people notice, when muslims immigrate they do not try to update themselves, they just try to tear down and create as equal of shiat hole as where ever they just left.

Yes, I know. I live in constant fear of my Somali Muslim neighbors. Why, just last week they brought over a plate of food for me, and they were full of smiles and kind words. I'm sure they're just lulling me into a false sense of security before coming over to behead me one night. Or the Muslim guy around the corner who I always see helping his neighbor fix up his car. He's probably planting bombs to use it in a suicide run.

Have you ever bothered to ask them what they think about sharia law, or if they want to see it spread to your neighborhood? What about what they think about the way your wife dresses? Ask them if they think rape can happen between a husband and wife.

Yes, they are good sweet people because they bring you food.

Stile4aly: Remember, kids, if you can find a handful of examples of despicable behavior by Muslims it means that all Muslims are backwards savages

A handful of examples of despicable behavior by Muslims doesn't mean that all Muslims are backwards savages.

The lack of a non-fundamentalist branch of Islam means it is far easier to get Muslims riled up over religion.

The widespread support on things like death for blasphemy means it is much harder for them to be part of or accept western society.

I've used up all my anger. #outrage
Angry because my kid told me he's gay. #outrage
That pig keeps sniffing me. #snoutrage

energy from crystals. #newage

#MONKEYRAGE

#AGAINSTTHEMACHINERAGE

atomicmask: Have you ever bothered to ask them what they think about sharia law, or if they want to see it spread to your neighborhood? What about what they think about the way your wife dresses? Ask them if they think rape can happen between a husband and wife.

Yes, they are good sweet people because they bring you food.

No, I haven't asked them about those things, and they haven't asked those same questions of me; you see, we respect each others' privacy, and it's NONE OF MY GODDAMNED BUSINESS. I treat them the same way I treat anyone else, and they do the same. They are law-abiding, good people, and that's all I expect from anyone.

Nick Spiceyweiner: I'm just going to go ahead and say this: Mohammed is a dick. There, I said it. Sorry bastard always changes the price of stuff when I go into his Chevron.

and won't let me use my debit card for an item less than $5 #customerRAGE

atomicmask: Remember kids, if someone finds evidence that your magical skewed view of muslims are wrong, and that the most "cultured" of muslim societies is still back assward and violent, you only need to divert the attention to christians or the united states! Don't rethink your position, change the subject!

You also forget the part that our government punishes individuals for domestic violence in the united states, in islamic nations the government looks the other way or condones it, because islam says a married woman is property and no such thing as rape exists between a husband a wife.

You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US. You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

Let's put this in the simplest possible terms; it is impossible that a large percentage of Muslims actively support terrorism because if they did it would be the largest army of Earth and we couldn't have this pleasant conversation.

Fooby: How do Muslim women go swimming?

They wear a burkini. (No joke.)

http://www.google.com/search?q=burkini&tbm=isch

I was thinking "in the water"? actually, they look like ninja suits..

buckler: atomicmask: Have you ever bothered to ask them what they think about sharia law, or if they want to see it spread to your neighborhood? What about what they think about the way your wife dresses? Ask them if they think rape can happen between a husband and wife.

Yes, they are good sweet people because they bring you food.

No, I haven't asked them about those things, and they haven't asked those same questions of me; you see, we respect each others' privacy, and it's NONE OF MY GODDAMNED BUSINESS. I treat them the same way I treat anyone else, and they do the same. They are law-abiding, good people, and that's all I expect from anyone.

That is sweet, would you be singing the same tune if you lived next door to a Klansmen?

Please stop basing your life and foreign policies off the "its a small world" ride at Disneyland.

atomicmask: buckler: atomicmask: Have you ever bothered to ask them what they think about sharia law, or if they want to see it spread to your neighborhood? What about what they think about the way your wife dresses? Ask them if they think rape can happen between a husband and wife.

Yes, they are good sweet people because they bring you food.

No, I haven't asked them about those things, and they haven't asked those same questions of me; you see, we respect each others' privacy, and it's NONE OF MY GODDAMNED BUSINESS. I treat them the same way I treat anyone else, and they do the same. They are law-abiding, good people, and that's all I expect from anyone.

That is sweet, would you be singing the same tune if you lived next door to a Klansmen?

Please stop basing your life and foreign policies off the "its a small world" ride at Disneyland.

Does it hurt to be so paranoid and afraid? It should.

Tatterdemalian: Canton: Yeah, but that's not going to happen. Normal people are boring and don't get the ratings, right?

They also don't tend to run around killing people, so survival doesn't depend on staying clear of normal people as much.

/likes to know which are normal people and which are murdering thugs
//apparently this makes me a paranoid Islamophobe

Yeah. It's hard to tell who's normal and who isn't sometimes. This is why I'm on the fence about concealed carry permits. Maybe that makes me an irrational anti-gun person, I don't know. But I will say this. Anecdotally, I have met quite a few openly Muslim people. I have taken classes with Muslims. (Michigan does in fact have a population outside of Dearborn.) I have eaten food prepared by Muslims. The Muslims I have met have been reasonable people who sometimes wear pretty head scarves.

I remain somewhat more worried about paranoid white dudes concealing hand guns and persecution complexes...

/Apparently that makes me a commie or something.

Please have a seat over there. #underage

Stile4aly: atomicmask: Remember kids, if someone finds evidence that your magical skewed view of muslims are wrong, and that the most "cultured" of muslim societies is still back assward and violent, you only need to divert the attention to christians or the united states! Don't rethink your position, change the subject!

You also forget the part that our government punishes individuals for domestic violence in the united states, in islamic nations the government looks the other way or condones it, because islam says a married woman is property and no such thing as rape exists between a husband a wife.

You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US. You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

Let's put this in the simplest possible terms; it is impossible that a large percentage of Muslims actively support terrorism because if they did it would be the largest army of Earth and we couldn't have this pleasant conversation.

Actually it is not, you could have every muslim on earth support radical islam (a lot of them do, a few do not) because not every one is a combatant. SUPPORT does not mean "actively engage in it" but rather "Back them by upholding the standards and allowing them the means by which to pratice radical islam" How do they do that? It is rather easy..

1. Support islam itself, which in itself is a violent ideology.

2. Not reporting radical muslims or extremists to the authorities

3. Having authorities that are themselves radical muslims and extremists.

4. overthrowing dictators and in turn electing Radical muslim groups like the muslim brotherhood and hezbollah into positions of power.


you see, if the radicalist movement was so thin and in such a minority, they would not be able to gain so high of positions of power. Exactly how the klan has no power in America, exactly how The national socialist movement no longer has power in germany. And to make the example even more clear, when we invaded Nazi germany, we were hard pressed to find a "real" nazi also, even though everyone supported and loved the national socialist government during the good times, and loved being a nazi. If you allow said things to happen, and do nothing to speak out or try to inhibit the spread and rise to power of an extremist group, you in effect support them. Apathy is as bad as actively working for them.

buckler: atomicmask: buckler: atomicmask: Have you ever bothered to ask them what they think about sharia law, or if they want to see it spread to your neighborhood? What about what they think about the way your wife dresses? Ask them if they think rape can happen between a husband and wife.

Yes, they are good sweet people because they bring you food.

No, I haven't asked them about those things, and they haven't asked those same questions of me; you see, we respect each others' privacy, and it's NONE OF MY GODDAMNED BUSINESS. I treat them the same way I treat anyone else, and they do the same. They are law-abiding, good people, and that's all I expect from anyone.

That is sweet, would you be singing the same tune if you lived next door to a Klansmen?

Please stop basing your life and foreign policies off the "its a small world" ride at Disneyland.

Does it hurt to be so paranoid and afraid? It should.

Does it hurt that your best reply to what I say is to say that I am afraid?

atomicmask: That is sweet, would you be singing the same tune if you lived next door to a Klansmen?

Please stop basing your life and foreign policies off the "its a small world" ride at Disneyland.

Does it hurt to be so paranoid and afraid? It should.

Does it hurt that your best reply to what I say is to say that I am afraid?

Yes, it might bother me, because I tend to dislike specific individuals who denigrate and have an active and irrational fear and hatred of others.

Stile4aly: You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US.

No. The "same" beliefs and actions don't exist all over the world.

If it were they would all be the same religion.

Similiar actions happen, but they don't enjoy the same support.


You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

It is far more than a handful.

China v Japan, Israel v Iran, Muslims v Christians...... this is turning into one hell of a year, and we got 3 more months to go.

Stile4aly: atomicmask: Remember kids, if someone finds evidence that your magical skewed view of muslims are wrong, and that the most "cultured" of muslim societies is still back assward and violent, you only need to divert the attention to christians or the united states! Don't rethink your position, change the subject!

You also forget the part that our government punishes individuals for domestic violence in the united states, in islamic nations the government looks the other way or condones it, because islam says a married woman is property and no such thing as rape exists between a husband a wife.

You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US. You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

Let's put this in the simplest possible terms; it is impossible that a large percentage of Muslims actively support terrorism because if they did it would be the largest army of Earth and we couldn't have this pleasant conversation.

Islam is the problem, if you listen they will tell you so. Seeing it first hand and living arround it would give you a better perspective and understanding of how it truly is. You need to check out MEMRItv and see what they say to us in english then what they say when they think we are not listening. Maybe seek out a group of refugees that have lived under the yoke of islam and ask them to describe it.

Didn't catch a fish all day. #troutrage
The pouring part of my ewer's cracked. #spoutrage
That boor is getting on my nerves. #loutrage

buckler: atomicmask: That is sweet, would you be singing the same tune if you lived next door to a Klansmen?

Please stop basing your life and foreign policies off the "its a small world" ride at Disneyland.

Does it hurt to be so paranoid and afraid? It should.

Does it hurt that your best reply to what I say is to say that I am afraid?

Yes, it might bother me, because I tend to dislike specific individuals who denigrate and have an active and irrational fear and hatred of others.

You do not know what "irrational" means do you? Irrational implies we have not experienced muslim violence and hate before. irrational implies that we have no proof of it, such as, say...a book that clearly states a groups intended goals and desires and none of them are peaceful or tolerant.

You know, it is alright to lump people into groups when they actively admit to belonging to said groups and profess the ideals of said group to be their own.

My bathroom tiles are falling off the wall. #groutrage
Tears For Fears cancelled the concert. #shoutrage

And so on ...

liam76: Stile4aly: Remember, kids, if you can find a handful of examples of despicable behavior by Muslims it means that all Muslims are backwards savages

A handful of examples of despicable behavior by Muslims doesn't mean that all Muslims are backwards savages.

Thank you.

The lack of a non-fundamentalist branch of Islam means it is far easier to get Muslims riled up over religion.

I would disagree that there is no non-fundamentalist movement within Islam, but I think the problem is one of labels. Because Islam never had a Protestant movement resulting in a splintering of the core religious interpretations we're left with Sunni and Shia and clearly you can't bucket a billion+ people into two groups. So, there are certainly non-fundamentalists, but there is no central organization of them from a religious perspective, and I think this has more to do with economics than religion. Religious moderation seems to require the establishment of a middle class which barely exists across much of the Middle East.

The widespread support on things like death for blasphemy means it is much harder for them to be part of or accept western society.

I agree completely. I think this stems from and early failure of Islamic philosophy. During the Islamic golden age there was a practice called Ijtihad which was essentially a tradition of Islamic scholarship and secular analysis. One particular philopsopher, Al-Ghazali, made the argument that because philosophical arguments couldn't solve fundamental religious questions, that such arguments should be abandoned and people should rely on faith alone. This rejection of intellectualism is a root cause of many problems in the Islamic world today. If there were a 1400 year history of Islamic intellectualism and philosophy, then medieval ideas like the penalties for blasphemy or apostasy would have ceased to exist long ago.

cameroncrazy1984: WhoGAS: I like that they have an article like this. It's nice to see the perspective of non-retarded muslims.

So, most of them.

I don't know, I haven't counted them on either side but it's nice to see an article like this.

liam76:
modesto is really dishing out a lot about his first hand knowledge of the ME without really explaining his knowledge. 

I know a few things:

1. The media portrayal of violence here is inaccurate and overblown. I live a few blocks from Tahrir and when there has been clashes over the last 1.5 years, I have had to adjust to this crazy duality where there is stone and molotov and tear gas throwing a few blocks away, but on my street (and all other points in this vast city) people are going about normal life: eating, shopping, smoking, drinking. People do get hurt and I am not arguing that Egypt doesn't have a long way to go to stability, but the picture you see that make it look like Cairo is burning give a false impression. Fights are within a two or three block radius. This was the case last weekend. Which leads me to-

2. Most people couldn't give two shiats about this film, and many are angry and ashamed of the (again....VERY few) who made a big deal out of it, and how they knew it would play on TV and make "Egypt" look. Admittedly, my sample is not huge here. That attitude was certainly the consensus amongst my dozen or so local friends, and amplified ad nauseum on social media. Also, a cab driver passing by the clashes on my way home (after asking me about the roads in america, and saying what good people we are....you get that a lot) shook his head and said "stupid." I add this because taxi drivers are notoriously reliable bellwethers of all things political here. So am I tapped in to the pulse of Egypt and the Middle East? No. But I think the extremely small support that these protests could muster speaks volumes.

3. This stuff is complex. There are a lot more variables than christian vs. islam, arabs vs. americans. Also, being opposed to American foreign policy in the region does not equal OMG KILL THE INFIDELS!!!. These people have lived through six decades of authoritarian rule where you were tortured and disappeared if you stepped out of line. That could not have been the case without US support. That's not debatable; it's just true. Say what you want about Camp David and the Arab Spring etc. etc. and whether the whole thing is/was worthwhile, but the 300,000 strong army of riot police that is still in place here to keep the people compliant? They might as well have "Made in the USA" stamped on their batons, because that's where the money and supplies come from. It should not come as a surprise that there is anti-american sentiment. We reap what we sow. Again, for 99.9999% of Egyptians, this is, if anything, a political issue, not a rationale for violence. Beyond that, there are huge economic issues and unemployment....trash everywhere.....water and electricity shortages....a whole lot of things that make the situation ripe for radicals to mobilize angry young men. This stuff happens for a reason. And the reason is not GOOD vs. EVIL or "they hate our freedoms" as perceived in the Bushian school of black and white.

But nuance and perspective do not make good TV, so instead the radicals get their pulpit. Stupid youtube video is fuel for an idiot sheikh to get a few people to go to the embassy and burn a flag. Flag burning gets played over and over again in America, so all muslims are fanatics. A few wackos take that to heart and make a stupid youtube video or cartoon. Rinse, repeat. Entertainment!

Stile4aly: I would disagree that there is no non-fundamentalist movement within Islam

What branch of Islam doesn't take the Koran as the direct word of God?

This is one of the huge problesm with Islam when contrasted with Christianity. The other is that the main prophet you are supposed to be like was a pedo warlord, vice a dirty hippy.

Stile4aly: I think the problem is one of labels. Because Islam never had a Protestant movement resulting in a splintering of the core religious interpretations we're left with Sunni and Shia and clearly you can't bucket a billion+ people into two groups. So, there are certainly non-fundamentalists, but there is no central organization of them from a religious perspective, and I think this has more to do with economics than religion. Religious moderation seems to require the establishment of a middle class which barely exists across much of the Middle East

Ignore the ME. Look at muslims in the west or Asia.

Every major school of Islamic thought has the Koran as the direct word of Gopd as the pillar.

Until there is a school of thought that can say some od the stuff in there is garbage they are all fundamentalists.


Stile4aly: If there were a 1400 year history of Islamic intellectualism and philosophy, then medieval ideas like the penalties for blasphemy or apostasy would could have ceased to exist long ago

Fixed that for you. There is no guarantee that the "intellectuals" woudl have one that fight as yoru previous comments prove. They could have come out more extremist than before.

Can't get angry, found inner peace.
#Zen

Stile4aly: You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US. You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

You are the one missing the point. All of those billion people have ridiculous beliefs. Yes, we have a ton of people here with ridiculous beliefs as well. We call them Christians. The difference is that we ridicule and marginalize ours. As a result, the number of people who fall for such nonsense is declining. Islam deserves the same amount of respect as any other form of make-believe.

I would say they are no different than cosplay or furry geeks, but cosplayers and furries don't kill their detractors.

Canton: Yeah. It's hard to tell who's normal and who isn't sometimes... I remain somewhat more worried about paranoid white dudes concealing hand guns and persecution complexes...

That's mostly because you're doing it wrong.

/past actions are indicative of future behavior, and words of any sort are meaningless unless past actions have backed them up
//if you believe that words are the only thing that matter and past actions are prejudicial and should be forgotten, then that's what makes you a commie or something

buckler: modesto: Tech folks, is there any way I can show where I'm connecting from?

Oh forget it. Carry on being simple minded and afraid.

This will do it, if you're still interested. 

Thanks

People turned a funny thread into a gd political debate. #Farkrage

Tired of the pointless bickering and wants more funny. #STFUage

modesto: buckler: modesto: Tech folks, is there any way I can show where I'm connecting from?

Oh forget it. Carry on being simple minded and afraid.

This will do it, if you're still interested. 

Thanks

[s12.postimage.org image 448x355]

Good thin you are in a moderate islamic country...

"Egypt's general prosecutor on Tuesday issued arrest warrants for Florida Pastor Terry Jones and seven Coptic Christian Egyptians linked to an anti-Islam video on YouTube that sparked riots across the Middle East, The Associated Press is reporting.
The eight individuals, none of whom are believed to be in Egypt, are charged with harming national unity, insulting and publicly attacking Islam and spreading false information. They could face the death penalty."
Can you see the problem with your so called moderate peace loving muslims? All over a youtube video, thats just insane or retardation through years of inbreeding

modesto: liam76:
modesto is really dishing out a lot about his first hand knowledge of the ME without really explaining his knowledge.

I know a few things:

I was talking more along the lines of you claiming anyone who had a different opinion than yours had never been to the ME, and when people said they had insisting they must be military or oil as they didn't understand.


modesto: 1. The media portrayal of violence here is inaccurate and overblown. I live a few blocks from Tahrir and when there has been clashes over the last 1.5 years, I have had to adjust to this crazy duality where there is stone and molotov and tear gas throwing a few blocks away, but on my street (and all other points in this vast city) people are going about normal life: eating, shopping, smoking, drinking.

Over the lasy 1.5 years all othe rpoints int he city have been drinking?

I am going to go ahead and call BS on that.

modesto: 2. Most people couldn't give two shiats about this film, and many are angry and ashamed of the (again....VERY few) who made a big deal out of it, and how they knew it would play on TV and make "Egypt" look. Admittedly, my sample is not huge here. That attitude was certainly the consensus amongst my dozen or so local friends, and amplified ad nauseum on social media. Also, a cab driver passing by the clashes on my way home (after asking me about the roads in america, and saying what good people we are....you get that a lot) shook his head and said "stupid." I add this because taxi drivers are notoriously reliable bellwethers of all things political here for saying things that they think won't hurt their tips.

FTFY.

It is great that you have a dozen or so friends that think this whole thing is stupid, but the overwhelming majortiy of Egyptians support the death penatly for blasphemy.

modesto: 3. This stuff is complex. There are a lot more variables than christian vs. islam, arabs vs. americans. Also, being opposed to American foreign policy in the region does not equal OMG KILL THE INFIDELS!!!. These people have lived through six decades of authoritarian rule where you were tortured and disappeared if you stepped out of line. That could not have been the case without US support. That's not debatable; it's just true.

Yes because when the US leaves other dictators never step up, you never get oppressive theocracies in their places, and no dictator in the world has power without the US.

modesto: Say what you want about Camp David and the Arab Spring etc. etc. and whether the whole thing is/was worthwhile, but the 300,000 strong army of riot police that is still in place here to keep the people compliant? They might as well have "Made in the USA" stamped on their batons, because that's where the money and supplies come from. It should not come as a surprise that there is anti-american sentiment. We reap what we sow. Again, for 99.9999% of Egyptians, this is, if anything, a political issue, not a rationale for violence. Beyond that, there are huge economic issues and unemployment....trash everywhere.....water and electricity shortages....a whole lot of things that make the situation ripe for radicals to mobilize angry young men. This stuff happens for a reason. And the reason is not GOOD vs. EVIL or "they hate our freedoms" as perceived in the Bushian school of black and white.

So black and white views are bad, unless you want to blame a dictatorship on the US? Seriously?



modesto: But nuance and perspective do not make good TV, so instead the radicals get their pulpit. Stupid youtube video is fuel for an idiot sheikh to get a few people to go to the embassy and burn a flag. Flag burning gets played over and over again in America, so all muslims are fanatics.

No. Most muslims are fanatics because most mulsims support death penalty for blasphemy.

imtheonlylp: Nick Spiceyweiner: I'm just going to go ahead and say this: Mohammed is a dick. There, I said it. Sorry bastard always changes the price of stuff when I go into his Chevron.

and won't let me use my debit card for an item less than $5 #customerRAGE

I hear you! I hope he knows I draw some terrible cartoons about him at least once a day.

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I thought a rage was the name for a group of Muslims. Like a prude of Christians, a flow of Taoists, or a bank of Jews.

you forgot a "troll of atheists"

atomicmask: Stile4aly:
You miss my point completely. I do not for a moment pretend that violence or backwards notions do not exist in the Muslim world. They indeed exist at a greater per-capita level than in the United States. Where we differ is that you conclude that these problems exist because the people involved are Muslims and that there is something terrible about Islam which causes people to be violent and backwards. I conclude that there must be other causes because these same violent tendencies and backwards notions can be found in non-Muslim countries including the US. You casually denigrate over a billion people because of the ridiculous beliefs and deplorable actions of a handful and yet when it's pointed out that the same beliefs and actions exist all over the world you hand wave it away.

Let's put this in the simplest possible terms; it is impossible that a large percentage of Muslims actively support terrorism because if they did it would be the largest army of Earth and we couldn't have this pleasant conversation.

Actually it is not, you could have every muslim on earth support radical islam (a lot of them do, a few do not) because not every one is a combatant. SUPPORT does not mean "actively engage in it" but rather "Back them by upholding the standards and allowing them the means by which to pratice radical islam" How do they do that? It is rather easy..

1. Support islam itself, which in itself is a violent ideology.

Brilliant. So what you're saying is that if Muslims weren't terrorists, then they'd choose to convert to some other religion. Victory by definition!

2. Not reporting radical muslims or extremists to the authorities

New York city recently admitted it spent millions of dollars monitoring mosques over the last 10 years without a single reliable lead on a terrorist of any stripe. What leads you to believe there is some massive conspiracy to hide terrorists from the authorities?

3. Having authorities that are themselves radical muslims and extremists.

4. overthrowing dictators and in turn electing Radical muslim groups like the muslim brotherhood and hezbollah into positions of power.

Hezbollah is a proxy group for Syria and Iran, not some home-grown poltical party. And for your worries of them being in a position of power, they hold less than 10% of the Lebanese parliament and aren't part of the ruling coalition. The Muslim Brotherhood repudiated violence in the 1970s and and has been held up as a boogeyman because the West has historically feared a nationalist movement in the Middle East. What I've read about Morsi is that he promises to be a technocrat, not an Ayatollah. Now, the proof will be in the pudding, but you don't seem to be willing to give them that chance.

you see, if the radicalist movement was so thin and in such a minority, they would not be able to gain so high of positions of power. Exactly how the klan has no power in America, exactly how The national socialist movement no longer has power in germany. And to make the example even more clear, when we invaded Nazi germany, we were hard pressed to find a "real" nazi also, even though everyone supported and loved the national socialist government during the good times, and loved being a nazi. If you allow said things to happen, and do nothing to speak out or try to inhibit the spread and rise to power of an extremist group, you in effect support them. Apathy is as bad as actively working for them.

I reject the notion that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt are analogous to the Klan or the neo-nazis. I would argue that the closest parallel would be something like Sinn Fein which, much like the MB, had its origins in religious violence against an oppressive power (the Protestant British in Ireland, and the Western supported monarchy and later the Sadat and Mubarak regimes in Egypt) which it later repudiated in an effort to become a legitimate political party.

As far as Muslims being apathetic, I know this list of condemnations of terrorism by Muslims won't change your mind, but maybe a lurker or two will see something new.

atomicmask: "How much fervor: Gallup polled over 50,000 Muslims across 10 countries and found that, if one defines radicals as those who deemed the 9/11 attacks "completely justified," their number constitutes about 7 percent of the total population. But if one includes Muslims who considered the attacks "largely justified," their ranks jump to 13.5 percent. Adding those who deemed the attacks "somewhat justified" boosts the number of radicals to 36.6 percent."

Now it is safe to assume that quite a few muslims did not tell the truth, perhaps fearing persecution, so I would gage that somewhat justified number at way, way higher.

Way way? You sound way way statistical

Joe Blowme: modesto: buckler: modesto: Tech folks, is there any way I can show where I'm connecting from?

Oh forget it. Carry on being simple minded and afraid.

This will do it, if you're still interested. 

Thanks

[s12.postimage.org image 448x355]

Good thin you are in a moderate islamic country...

"Egypt's general prosecutor on Tuesday issued arrest warrants for Florida Pastor Terry Jones and seven Coptic Christian Egyptians linked to an anti-Islam video on YouTube that sparked riots across the Middle East, The Associated Press is reporting.
The eight individuals, none of whom are believed to be in Egypt, are charged with harming national unity, insulting and publicly attacking Islam and spreading false information. They could face the death penalty."
Can you see the problem with your so called moderate peace loving muslims? All over a youtube video, thats just insane or retardation through years of inbreeding

Pretty odious, no doubt. Also though, a completely symbolic gesture since none of them will ever face trial here. A publicity stunt by a politician trying to make a name for himself. Probably will be walked back in a few days, or at least that's typical of the farcical government these days.

Another thing to keep in mind here is that because of the authoritarian regimes that everyone has lived their whole lives under (in no small part due to us), they really can't grasp the nature of free speech without prior restraint. If something came out, the government must have ok'd it.

What is your contention, exactly? That holding a quran at any point in your life will turn you completely, irrevocably evil? Is it like.....a virus? Zombie muslims bent on eating american brains?

liam76: Stile4aly: I would disagree that there is no non-fundamentalist movement within Islam

What branch of Islam doesn't take the Koran as the direct word of God?

What branch of Christianity doesn't take the Bible as the inspired word of God. All religions take their holy texts as divine writ, why is Islam special in this case? Certainly you'll find plenty of cafeteria Christianity in the West, but this is hardly an organized religious movement. Likewise, you'll find cafeteria Muslims in the West (I'm one of them).

This is one of the huge problesm with Islam when contrasted with Christianity. The other is that the main prophet you are supposed to be like was a pedo warlord, vice a dirty hippy.

A pedo warlord... Get bent.

I want to participate in a funny thread about Islam, but can't because there are too many trolls and I feel compelled to defend my religion. #MUSLIMRAGE